On Sub-calibers

[Mad Reloader]

Hello, all!

As Moderator for this Forum, going to post this one as sort of a FYI on the Sub-calibre thing.

To me, subcalibres are:

1) Any & all cartridges smaller than .22 calibre

2) Calibres originally thought of as for sub-caliber practice, like the 4mm Erma RF & CF, and the .297/230 Morris (which is a bottlenecked .22 centerfire round)

3) Small .22 centerfires such as the .22 Hornet and its ancestor, the .22 WCF. Which also would include I suppose the .22 CCM (a centerfire version of the .22 WMR!) and its parent cartridge the .22 Maynard Extra Long.

I'm also going to include a FOURTH, unless someone objects. That would be "miniature" handgun cartridges, from the 2.7mm Kolibri up to and including the 6.35mm Browning, or .25 Auto!

.218 Bee--Umm, I think I'll let Rocky & Terry Blauwkamp keep that one over in Reloading Bench, since that's more of a regular (though getting scarce) small game/Varminter round.

Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on this Statement of Delinieation? The floor's open. :)

[Rocky Raab]

When I first established this forum, my thoughts were to cover any and all cartridges smaller than a .224" bore diameter. That covers a lot of ground, but except for the 17 Rem and the new 17 HMR, it is exclusively a land of wildcats.

So here's a thought....if you folks agree, why don't we rename the forum Wildcats? (I almost suggested Wildcats and Weirdos, but that might attract the wrong audience!)

[Mad Reloader]

Hmmmm.....

Since the only current factory-loaded Subcalibres under Rocky's definition are the .17 HMR, 4mm Erma (in the OWS catalog!) and the .17 Remington...

And if you expand the category to include TMR's definition, that would add only the .22 Hornet, .25 Auto & .22 WCF as factory loads(I think Dangerous Dave the Old Western Scrounger is rolling up the latter!)

That's not too many rounds of this ilk that are not in the "wildcat" category (I include rolling up .22 Maynard Extra Longs and repro .297/.230 Morris as wildcats as one is 'catting obsolete ammo from available components)

Okay, everybody--How about "Subcalibres & Wildcats?"

(This would cover all the bases, IMHO!)

[Mad Reloader]

Okay, add the .17 LR and the .204 to the factory loaded rounds list...

Any objections to my adding .25 ACP to the subcalibre list?

(Besides Rocky & I, who else has loaded this one???) :confused:

[Catfish]

Rocky,
I have 2 - .17 cal/ wildcats, 1 - .22 cal. wildcat, 2 - .25 cal. wildcats, and 1 - .411 wildcat. Now if I udnerstand you you, "Wildcatters are Weirods". :confused: :rolleyes: :( I resemble that remark.

[Rocky Raab]

MR, here's one that makes it into all four categories:

I had an acquaintance who who necked the 25 ACP down to 22! He loaded 40 Ballistic Tips in it at something like 800 fps.

Why? Who that hell could guess.

(Talk about needing skinny fingers. Imagine trying to hold the bullet under THAT seating die!)

BTW, the same guy also concocted a Contender barrel with an extension 1.125" in diameter. He launched regular golf balls out of the extension (dropped into the muzzle to load) using 32 Long blanks loaded in the usual way!!! Even had a huge tangent sight on it - fired it like a mortar!

Don't let anybody call YOU weird!

[Blaine Eddy]

Indeed Wildcatters in general are a bit off Plumb, and even more-so with regard to the trully subs from .17 on down, folks like Bill Eichelberger who pioneered the .10 .12 and .14 cals we owe a debt of gratitude to, without Bill and a few others like him i doubt the little buggers would still be around today, bill actually mentioned to me that he was working on an .8 caliber but for health reasons had to end further progress on it, if anyone is interested Bill offers some really cool small caliber cartridge display boards in .10 .12 .14 and .17 cal.

[Mad Reloader]

How about a name-change to "Subcalibers and Wildcats?"

(For some of the obsolescent & oddball rounds I load, I'm making use of Wildcatter techniques as it is, so that is REAL familiar turf)

This way Monkeyman with his reverse-engineered .218 Bee along the lines of a .224/.357 (.221 Monkeyman) and the AI crowd can hang out here if they want, and we can still get on Spike-1's nerves with the .17 HMR thing as well.

Best of both worlds!

Back to the guy necking down .25 ACP to .22: I think I know what he may have fired them in, and why:

A very very few Soviet knockoffs of the Walther TPH have shown up here after the Grenada conflict and The Wall came down...mind, these are totally unimportable under GCA-68...chambered for a "Baby Tokarev" type cartridge which is essentially the .25 ACP necked down to .22. Original ammo was of course berdan primed....

Frame configuration was 1/2 way between that of a TPH and an RG-26. Some East German holsters for the thing showed up 10-15 years ago, got one in my "DDR" collection, picked up one of the RG's simply to have something to put in the holster (Very tight fit! The Roscoe's much thicker!)

At some point I'll remember what the name was exactly of the pistol.

[Andy L]

Blaine,
I would be interested in seeing that 14 Walker, I mean a picture of the round someday. Thats gotta be a cool little bugger. Hows the 17 Athena coming along?

Andy

BTW, Blaine, if you wanna show off the Athena, I can post the pic for you. I stole it off another site and kept it in my pics. :D

[Rocky Raab]

MR, that whacko wildcatter did all his work with Contender barrels. There was no need to make some oddball pistol firable. He just loved doing weird things with guns.

[Mad Reloader]

In that case....

DANG! That's strange.

(Contender Barrelings that Should Not Be: :eek: Wooo! Scary!)

He sounds like he'd fit right in here at HC: Has he got a Nurd Box??? :)

[gregarat]

I allways assumed that sub-calibers were, NON-rimfire.

So are rimfires included in sub-caliber list, or not?:confused:

[Mad Reloader]

Yes, pert near all surviving and current production rimfires qualify as subcalibres.

(Exception being made for the .32, 9mm shot and .41 being produced in very small quantity by Navy Arms, etc.)

CENTERFIRE subcalibres are everything smaller than .22 Hornet, to include .22 Hornet as the borderline round.

Which leads to the following bizarro scenario:

Someone even less sane than TMR necks down a .50 BMG to .20 cal.

It is thusly a subcalibre.

The infra-dinkoidal .25 ACP, which can be used for subcalibre work in cetain varieties of MCA Sports and Alex adaptors...

Is NOT.

(So, iff'n TMR had a darling daughter Eillonwy, and set her up with a T/C in .25-35 with an MCA adaptor to shoot lead bullet loads of .25 Auto until she learned how to hit a squirrel...she would NOT be shooting a genuine subcalibre)

(But: TMR's strapping galoot-like "Ukie" buddy J P Slovjanski could get hold of a Barrett .50, have the custom barrel cranked out for ".20-50 Event Horizon"* and would be zapping varmints at ridiculously high velocities...and going through powder at a phenomenal rate!...with a SUBCALIBER arm!) :eek:

*This is MY nickname for such a wildcat. Another possibility would be the .17-50 E=MC2, or the .14-50 Trans-dimensional! LOL! :D

[Rocky Raab]

That's what I had in mind when I created this forum: ANYTHING sub-22-caliber.

Rimfire or centerfire is moot.

So, theoretically, we could have a .12-Henry Rimfire, or a .20-BMG DragonBreath, or a .14-32ACP Magnolia and be a true Sub-Caliber.

But not a 6mm-Bofors (40mm Bofors Pom-Pom necked to .244"!!!)

No, none of those is real - or oughta be!

But the .17 HMR and the .17 Mach II and ther .20 Ruger are DEFINITELY included!

So the basic rule for "Subs" relates to bore size and nada else.

[Mad Reloader]

How about the 88mm KWK necked down to .218" ???

:D

LOL!


(Yes, I remember your little ditty about the powder can with the projo stuck in the neck...and it just keeps getting funnier!)

[Blaine Eddy]

Andy
Sorry about all the mail trouble lately, post away whatever you want bud, i havent been getting in till real late but i'll try to call you as soon as possible, thanks Andy..........Blaine

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

.22 Jet with actual .222 diameter bullet would qualify, .22 Highpower with .227 diameter bullet would not...right?

[Mad Reloader]

Earshplitten...

.22 Savage Highpower, being a cartridge of the .219 Zipper/.225 Winchester class...excluded

.22 Hornet--with bullet diameter ranging from .222" to .224", is included. Its "dawn-of-the-smokeless-age" antecedent, .22 Winchester Centerfire (pretty much a shortened Hornet casing) included...despite the ,227" diameter bullet.

.22 CCM (Cooper Centerfire Magnum) is included [BTW, that's a centerfire version of .22 WMR] though it's antecedent parent cartridge, the .22-15 Maynard....sort of in limbo.

[deadkelly]

my brother reloads 22lr 's with 22 cal air rifle pellets 1.5 gn of fff
black powder and the white stuff out of toy cap gun caps(big shots)he gets 198 primers for $1 au ,500 projectiles for $5 and is happy as larry with 100gns (2 shots worth) of fff. he uses it in a laser sighted zip gun and trys to shoot rats under the house and cane toads.no hits on rats yet .toads are very tuff they take a few.toads are hard to kill bastards .(maybe he should try the pellets in backwards trick)

[Catfish]

I seen a pull off barrel that was chambered for the .50 BMG necked down to 6mm once. The guy said he was burning a ton of powder and was only able to get alittle over 4,500 fps. with it.
I`m in Alaska now, but when I get back home in Aug., maybe I`ll try necking some of my primed .22 rimfire cases down to .17 cal. Make my own .17 Mac11 ammo.:rolleyes:

[longdistanceoperator]

Acutally sub calibers are anythign smaller than 19 calhoon and you can shoot dozens of them... from 14 fly on up... one guy even made a 10 hornet..LOL

check out "THE" website for them

www.saubier.com (http://www.saubier.com)

[longdistanceoperator]

Acutally sub calibers are anythign smaller than 19 calhoon and you can shoot dozens of them... from 14 fly on up...

saubier.com

for little guys..

[22.sniper]

.17 Hornady Magnum Rimfire, commonly known as the .17 HMR, is a rimfire rifle cartridge descended from the .22 magnum. It was developed by necking down the .22 Magnum case to take a .17 cailber (4.5 mm) bullet. Commonly loaded with a 17 grain (1.1 g) bullet, it can deliver muzzle velocities in excess of 2550 ft/s (775 m/s).