Law Enforcement allowed to carry [Archive]

Adam Helmer

07-30-2004, 03:08 PM

Rocky_Raccoon,

Are you referring to Military Policemen? I wonder if they are better trained than "any law enforcement";I would need to see the footnote on that statement. The average recruit does not handle a handgun in basic these days. Last May my neighbor and his Marine son home on leave after basic hunted turkeys on my farm. When they came out of the woods at noon, I chatted with the young Marine. He did not handle a handgun at Paris Island, he said only the MPs get to use handguns. I spent the afternoon checking him out on a .357 revolver and a Colt M1911A1 because he never shot a handgun before and was going to Iraq. I never shot a handgun in basic or any of the four years I was in the military.

Adam

Tater

07-30-2004, 07:08 PM

Not all military get all that much firearms/use of force training. Some of us only get training every 2.5 years. Granted, my job doesn't require it as much as a cop, but I'd prefer it if the Air Force adopted the Marines Corps' tradition of "rifleman first". And I've seen a lot of idiots I wouldn't want to be stuck in a foxhole with. I wouldn't mind having the option to carry, though, as long as there was some sort of training to go with it.

8X56MS

08-01-2004, 11:19 AM

I am pretty leary about cops carrying guns. They seem to have a lot of AD, and ND. I don't think that being a cop makes them any more capable handling firearms, than I am. Cops always had the option of getting a CCW like the rest of the Citizens. I do NOT think that cops are special, or deserve any more special treatment than they already get.

Purebred Redneck

08-17-2004, 01:38 PM

I was bored today and was just looking but I had to sign in for this one ;)

Of course law enforcement officers should get this special treatment. Why? They get paid to piss people off.
What if you had to look behind your back everytime you go somewhere wondering if someone you arrested is there in the same place too?
What if you live right on a state border and you cross state lines for a night on the town on a friday?

My dad had a cousin or uncle or something who was a judge. He tried to carry his gun on a airplane a long time ago. They wouldn't let him.

So I think LEOs and judges perhaps attorneys should be given additional treatment because the risk of being TRAGETED is so much higher.

Military? I highly doubt an pro-Saddam iraqi soldier is going board a airplane and target private John Doe for killing his brother.

It's not about firearms experience - it's about the additional risk of being targeted.

Just a final note - I'm going into the police acadamy soon and will be a LEO. Do I think there is a chance I will meet up with someone I have a history with 5 years from now somewhere? Yeh.

Skinny Shooter

08-17-2004, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by VinVega
Now let's see this get done with the normal everyday guy who also deserves to protect himself just the same.

Mega Dittos!!!!!!!!

So the next time I go to Illinois I won't have to worry about becoming a criminal.
The way that State treats it's citizens looks like something I stepped in and is beginning to smell...

Vin, just wait, if merry kerry gets in office, we may see the UN attempting to get it's hooks into us. He's no friend of the gunowner.

VinVega

08-17-2004, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Skinny Shooter
Vin, just wait, if merry kerry gets in office, we may see the UN attempting to get it's hooks into us. He's no friend of the gunowner.

Nor am I a friend of his. If asked to use my gun to protect him, I'd probably say no. If he don't like the idea of me protecting myself with a gun, I don't like the idea of protecting him period.

mazter

08-17-2004, 05:40 PM

LEO's should have to get the same CCW as we citizens have to. Too many of them have a GOD complex & I would rather them be in Uniform with a Gun, If not then they need to get the CCW just like us.

Now the Military is Differant, My Boy is just getting done with Basic & AIT at Fort Lenoardwood , MO, He is a Asst. Platoon Guide, & was a Squad leader before that. He will be comming home in Sept. & I know for a fact what he got trained for, and what he will get trained for when he goes to Kansas for the first 2 year's of his 4 year service. He is Qualified Expert on Handgun & rifle, Plus Grenade's. Not Just your standard training either, He is an MP/ Corrections Officer & is also going thru Ranger Training & Flight Combat/ Jump School Along with all the Newest Training for Chemical & Biohazard threats.

So I do believe People that have the Training like he is getting and are in the Military, Should be allowed to carry at all time's anywhere. They are the ones Protecting our Country, So I would trust People like him More.

Not just anyone in the Military, But the ones who get intense training for it. They have been trained better than any LEO for Terrorism, Homeland Security & Defense.

BTW: Can you tell How proud I am of him ?:D ;) :D

Steve in PA

08-20-2004, 01:34 AM

So people that have to undergo physicals, psychological testings, yearly if not quarterly qualifications, yearly updates and training on the use of force, etc.......isn't enough training?

BTW, military firearms training is very basic. Yes, I've been there and done that (Marine Corps and PA Army Nat'l Guard).

VinVega

08-20-2004, 01:55 AM

Now I've got nothing against military men myself, I have as much respect for them as the next guy does. But, I will say myself that just as many of the military guys I know have God complexes as the cops do. I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to carry weapons concealed, but by God if they can, cops had better be able to. I realize that most soldiers put their necks on the line for some time of their lives to protect the country, but is it not obvious that police officers put their lives on the line every single day for 20+ years?
Honestly I don't think military or police should have any upper hand on carrying weapons. We as Americans should all be able to. I don't see a thing wrong with requiring licensing and training, but it still should be something you get to do everyhwere. Now I've said it tons of times before, I'd love to be a police officer, and am hoping to get to fulfill that dream one day. But, I am still believing that while police are there to protect you, they can't be all the time. People should be able to protect themselves, be they cop, military, firefighter, EMT, anything!

Varmint Hunter

08-20-2004, 08:51 AM

I've never seen quite so much anti-police sentiment anywhere.:rolleyes:

Obviousy, the House, Senate & the President don't agree with you guys, and keep in mind that many of your representatives that voted for this bill are left-wing democrats who are traditionally anti-gun. This was a well thought out, common sense piece of legislature.

Very FEW civilians have a lifetime of continual training & firearms qualifing nor is their conduct monitored with the scrutiny that has befallen Police Officers. Based on a Police Officers training and career experience he is expected to know when, where and how to use deadly physical force to maximize the public safety in a hostile situation. Do you have such training and experience???? If you can't see the difference between the Police and an armed resident then its because you don't want to.

Locally, many forms of mass transit allow Police Officers to ride for free. However, they must be prepared to act in their capacity as a LEO when **** hits the fan. Is every handgun owning resident ready, willing and capable of interceeding in a confrontation brought on by some crazed idiot. No they are not, nor are they expected to be. This agreement was not designed to benefit the Police but to enhance the public safety aboard a bus, train or other means of transit.

There is a difference.

As a clarifier: The new law does not apply to any and every LEO, there are specific parameters and annual requirements. The bill also does not allow qualified LEO's to carry "anywhere" in the US.

VH

popplecop

08-20-2004, 03:39 PM

If you don't like Law Enforcement the next time the crap hits the fan call a Liberal.

VinVega

08-20-2004, 04:37 PM

Oh I'm not anti-police at all. I'd be completely content with allowing police officers more right to carry weapons, even without CCW. They've been through enough training to deserve that (full-time police officers, at least). But, I was just saying we need a nation-wide CCW instead of state-by-state. It makes things much more simpler if it's uniform everywhere.

Nulle

08-22-2004, 04:14 AM

Well been sitting back and watching this thing and same old negative junk on us cops. Instead of this being a step in a positive sense there ya go with your bashing. I am better then you are cops are Gods-Hitlers ect. Good grief the next time you get robbed or a person you know gets raped call God or handle it yourself if your so darn smart !

mazter

08-22-2004, 02:12 PM

Nulle- I for one never said I hated Cops, Everyone lives in a differant community with differant Cops. The Cops around here do Have the God Complex. I can send you taped recording of it off my Scanner if you'd like. They just sit & wait to Mess with someone. If your right after they show up you will be wrong. I have had several run in's with some LEO's that just dont get it. But there are some that are my friends too. The ones with a chip on thier shoulder should not be allowed to serve, Period. I have saw & heard them Harrass so many people over the dumbest stuff. But the will continue to do so until someone puts a stop to it. Just wait until City Council hears what they do on the Scanner, I might just have to send them a tape.;)

We all deal with differant matter's in differant areas & differant LEO's. I belive there are some damn fine men & women out there protecting us and Upholding the law. The problem is when they step out of line, Who is there to Police them ? There own Peer's ?

And TV dont help matters any either, All you see is Cop's beating the Crap out of people for no reason, Remember Rodney King ? There's more & more hitting the news Daily. A car chase gets them pumped and mad then when they do get the person out of the car , He better be wearing a suit of Armour, As we have saw many times they get Kicked and Beat in to submission. Is that what they were taught to do ? I dont think so.

Big city LEO's get more training than the Small town LEO's, So how do we make this Equal, It will never be equal.

And if I can Handle the Situation Myself I will, If not then Ill call the Police, But they had better be fair & Respectful. I respect them until they lose it that respect. Im sure im not the only one who has this opinion either, Like I said we all deal with Differant situations in differant towns with Differant LEO's. Not all LEO's are the same.

Nulle

08-23-2004, 06:10 AM

In the bigger cities the Internal Affairs Division takes care of the bad cops and granted there are plenty - But - do you honestly think and want every citizen carrying a gun. Think about what you are saying on this point. A bill for citizens to carry like the one for Law Enforcement would put handguns in the hands of gang members, outlaw motorcycle gangs and all the rest. No thanks on that one !
I don't think we are going to see a mass shooting and misuse of power by Police due to this bill. If this takes place where a cop oversteps the bounds they will still have to face the courts where it took place and again when they get back to their home state.
On the training end of the thing I don't know if large cities have more or less training for their officers. I think this really depends on the Department brass. In the Department where I am working now we have as much or more then the largest city in our state and it is a rather small Department. There are Standards set by the State that we have to go by and follow so these areas are covered.
If you have tapes of wrong doing by "certain" officers then you should turn them over to the internal affairs and let them deal with it. I feel it is your duty as a citizen for the welfare of the community and by not doing so does not and will not help anybody. I have said in the past and will again that the bad cops need to be weeded out and sent to hand out shopping carts at Wal-Mart.

Skinny Shooter

08-23-2004, 08:12 AM

Originally posted by Nulle
But - do you honestly think and want every citizen carrying a gun. Think about what you are saying on this point.

Absolutely every rational and responsible citizen should be able to carry a gun if they feel the need. Nulle, I'm sure you mean the bad eggs in society shouldn't have a gun and are not referring to the regular average citizen

A bill for citizens to carry like the one for Law Enforcement would put handguns in the hands of gang members, outlaw motorcycle gangs and all the rest. No thanks on that one !

Haven't read the bill. Unfortunately it is a fact that gang members already engage in illegal gun possesion. A national CCW that would do something like that would be very poorly written and will never pass into law. When the average joe crosses a state line, he shouldn't have to fear a jail sentence just because he wants to protect himself and/or family.

I don't think we are going to see a mass shooting and misuse of power by Police due to this bill.

I agree. Most officers are good guys and are members of the community like everyone else.

mazter

08-23-2004, 02:16 PM

Nulle- You have put it in Perspective for me, Thank you. I understand what you are saying.

But this town I live in Is Dirty, Good Ole Boys who have each others Back From the Cops,Councilmen to the Mayor. Just a few Example's-

1. I saw with my own eyes, 2 kids get caught with a Bag of Pot, They took it from the kids and took the Pipe also, Never gave them a Ticket, and the Cops went on their way, I had a scanner in hand & there were no radio calls in about it either. Those cops had a High time that nite !

.2 A Serious Accident happen's Killing 3 Kids, The Sheriff that got there first was the Dad of the Driver of the car that killed 3 Kids, He helped his son Hide the Beer that was in the Car. I know everyone that was involved with this one. We told the other Sheriffs we saw him hiding the Beer, Nothing was done. No one served one day in jail. But the Community knows the truth. We were there.

.3 I know a guy who was in jail, and had to serve 30 days on a DUI. He got privlages to help clean the Jail while he was in there. He walked out of Jail with a few ounce's weed, Now how can that Happen ?

Too many people know about all the Stuff I named above, Im not the only one that knows about all this. This town is Crooked, Yeah I know we elected some of these people, but they just conform with the rest of them.

And I will turn in those Tapes I have too, Your right it is my Civic Duty to do so. Ill also keep a Back up of them too.

Thank's Nulle;)

Edited to add- I dont disrespect any cop's at all, But I want to be treated fair. I didnt want you to think I was Knocking on all LEO's, Just the ones here, and the one's all over that do have a Complex with their Staus as a LEO.

TreeDoc

08-23-2004, 02:51 PM

You seemed surprised, Maz!

Everyone knows Cops have the best Weed! :p

:D

Sorry Nulle, I couldn't resist! It must have been those years of listening to Cheech and Chong in the '70's, man!

mazter

08-23-2004, 08:34 PM

Belive it or Not its the Truth:D :D :D

Nulle

08-25-2004, 07:16 PM

Let me try it one more time Skinney and then I'll shut up lol.
Where do you draw the line on who gets to carry and who don't?
NO I don't want every citizen to be armend. Some are dangerious and should not have even a BB gun but again where do we draw that line. If I were the Sheriff or Police Chief would I want the job of weeding them out? Not realy because I was there once and it was not easy. At that time South Dakota now had a conceled permit + a target and hunting one. Many got the hunting one and very few got the conceled permit.

There are bad Deparments thats for sure and I sure am not condoning their actions and think I stated before ++Do everything you can to get rid of them!

8X56MS

09-03-2004, 06:34 PM

Anti Police? not really. Anti militarized cops that refer to us as 'Civilians', and pardon the pun, 'cop' an attitude? yeah, I am anti that.
A LEO has no more reason to carry a gun than anyone else. Treating them as a different class of citizen, is not prudent. Every one of them has the ability to secure a 'Civilian' CCW if their State has been magnanimous enough to issue them. If not, oh well, they can just take their chances with the rest of us.
Liberals support this ill concieved legislation, because the feel NONE of US should have guns, JUST the cops.

Nulle

09-04-2004, 09:51 AM

Well guess we have and will always be treated as "different" class citizen. Far as ability to carry our President must not have shared your feelings on that one.

Purebred Redneck

09-08-2004, 01:43 PM

I still think everyone is missing my point

Concealed carry is for personal proection - not to be a civilian constantly looking for terrorists or people on the FBI most wanted. A cop is a civilian HOWEVER he has FAR MORE personal enemies and reasons for being attacked by "old friends" than 50 of us put together. That simple fact alone is enough justification to warrent additional carry privilges.

M.T. Pockets

09-08-2004, 02:13 PM

Boy I feel dumb, I thought a licensed police officer was allowed to carry at all times. Afterall, they're licensed law enforcement officers 24/7 aren't they ? I'm not familiar with the laws in Minnesota but I thought licensed officers could carry. I don't know why not, if they chose to.

I like Purebred Redneck's point too, makes perfect sense to me.

Nulle

09-08-2004, 09:10 PM

All States are or were different in the laws governing the carrying by Law Enforcement. This new deal is for State to State travel ect.
There was a time when in New York if you boarded an airline with a fella in custody to be taken to another State and you had a gun there would be a big problem.
Which brings up another point: For you that think everybody should have the same right, where you also in the large group awhile back that thought it was ok for the airline pilots to carry?
If so would it not be just as fare for all the passangers to carry then also?
Myself I don't see a problem with the Pilots having guns after the right training but on the other hand I think you know my stance on passangers lol

Varmint Hunter

09-08-2004, 09:19 PM

Boy I feel dumb, I thought a licensed police officer was allowed to carry at all times. Afterall, they're licensed law enforcement officers 24/7 aren't they ?

Most Police, if not all, carry firearms based on their lawful authority to do so. Generally, they are not "licensed" to do so. They are required to meet the minimum firearm proficiency standard as prescribed by the Department of Criminal Justice, and to do so no less then once each year. Most departments have training programs that are much more extensive than the required standard and often train more frequently.

The new legislation signed into law by President Bush allows officers (active or retired) to carry thier handguns out of their jurisdictions. I might add that in order for retired officers to take advantage of this bill they must continue their annual training throughout their retirement and to carry proof of such training.

VH

Adam Helmer

09-09-2004, 08:14 AM

Nulle,

You seem to think a national CCW would permit "gang members and outlaw bikers to carry." I agree with Skinny Shooter when he says the gangs and other bad guys already are carrying without a national ccw.

If you read the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 and the 1968 Gun Control Act, you will see that criminals and others are "prohibited persons" and may not possess any firearms. No national ccw would allow bad guys to carry and all BGs who want to carry are doing so this minute.

The next time you go into a gun shop, pick up a BATFE Form 4473 and see the list of "prohibited persons" who will not pass a background check. Many of the folks I arrested in my career were armed and none had a permit to carry because they did not qualify for a permit.

Adam

Nulle

09-09-2004, 08:47 PM

Thats fine it they had a prior conviction or should I say Federal conviction.
So whats your stand on this ? You want EVERYbody to be packing or not. Unless convicted of a felony or nuts that is and that mental thing is a joke as that is private info. and can't get that anyway.

Adam Helmer

09-10-2004, 09:05 AM

Nulle,

How long have you been in law enforcement? A state conviction for a felony makes one a "prohibited person" and is barred from any gun ownership. Also some misdemeanors can make one a "prohibited person" and a person who is the subject of a Protection From Abuse order may not purchase a firearm, check the last line on the Form 4473. It asks, "Are you the subject of a "qualifed PFA?" In PA, there is no jury trial, merely a hearing before a judge to get to the qualified PFA. As for the mental background check, mental files are scanned in the phone-in background check before a "GO" number is given to the FFL dealer to authorize a gun purchase.

My stand on this issue is that any person with a clean record should be allowed to obtain a CCW. All the bad guys are already armed and no law will prevent bad guys from packing iron. Since the BGs are armed, why not let honest folks carry? The BG would not know which of his intended victims are armed, and what could be more fair? I was never concerned with guns in honest hands, it was the less than half percent in bad guys' hands that gave me full employment. If you read the Constitution, all honest folks have the right to bear arms. It gives fits to anti-gunners and Liberals who believe if they pass enough gun control laws, they "May" disarm a criminal or two. Compare Massachusetts to Vermont and see what I mean.

Adam

Nulle

09-10-2004, 09:50 AM

To answere the first question = over 23 years and how about you. Any more smart assed questions will be directed in a pm (maybe).

Adam Helmer

09-10-2004, 02:40 PM

Nulle,

I did not ask any "smart xxxxx" questions. I asked because you posted it was a federal conviction that makes one a "prohibited person" ineligible for legal gun ownership when there are also state felonies that make one ineligible from legal gun ownership, and also PFA matters. I tried to explain the many factors that make one ineligible to own any firearm, let alone obtain a CCW. I spent 26 years and 5 months as a federal agent. I hope this clarifies the matter, and a PM is not necessary. Be well.

Adam

popplecop

09-10-2004, 07:22 PM

Lokk did any think that this might be a cog in the step for a nation wide CC. The Congress saw fit to pass it and the President signed it in to law. If you are against it contact you're elected representive and voice your opion. I am sure Nulle ment and felony conviction. Enough s enough now let's talk firearms and hunting. Oh years, in Law Enforcement on Various levels including Federal and that really doesn't make me any smarter than anyone else. I've been retired for 16 Glorious Years.

Skinny Shooter

09-10-2004, 09:45 PM

It should be a no-brainer for a LEO to carry anywhere he/she goes. Right?
But unfortunately, current guys like Nulle and our retired officers like Adam have been mis-trusted up to this point with carrying a gun in other jurisdictions.
That's the same thing I was addressing when I agreed that the average person should have the same liberties.
Fortunately you guys have been taken care of now.

How my comment got twisted into LEO-bashing is beyond me and personally I resent it if that is addressed to me.

Going back to CCW in Illinois. There was no 911 while in the Springbrook Prairie/Forest Preserve outside of Naperville 2 winters ago. No fault of LE, they can't be everywhere.
But I needed assistance at that moment, not 5, 10 or 20 minutes later. My Pa. CCW-carried handgun should have been my 911 if I had it.

The average joe who is responsible and rational and has a CCW should be able to carry across state lines too.
While on a trip to Chesapeake City, Md a few weeks ago, I forgot to unload my auto when I crossed into Maryland. It didn't help that the border isn't clearly marked where I drove over the line (Skeet can probably vouch for that one). About 10 minutes over the border I remembered and despised the feeling (my conscience) of being a lawbreaker due to an imaginary line on a map. If we had been stopped, I would have been in a lot of trouble. This is the kind of stuff that the citizen still puts up with.

It's only about control.

Your right Popplecop, even though this forum is titled Concealed Carry, maybe we should get back to hunting topics.

If someone wants to continue this discussion with me, feel free to shoot off a PM.

Allen

papi

11-12-2005, 08:00 AM

why should a leo person be required to go thru a ccw course?they have already gone thru years of training.a ccw course is just hours long.same with the military.they get no where the training as a leo.i retired after 25 years.the new law does allow the reired leo to carry but they are supposed to show proficiency.the problem is that there is no guidelines for the proficiency.i have a hard time understanding why one person says he does not trust the police.i imagine it is for reasons he will not admit.i think it is just plain stupid to compare a leo trained person to a military person.a few hours training does not hold water with years of training

Adam Helmer

11-12-2005, 06:52 PM

papi,

Welcome to the Forum. I agree that a retired LEO is far better qualified than those who receive lesser training. Also, my state does not require or offer CCW courses.

Adam

papi

11-14-2005, 09:56 PM

speaking for texas officers we are required bt dept policy to carry 24-7.state law allows us to carry 24-7.courts have upheld the ruling that you are a cop 24-7 and not just the time on duty.there are laws in texas that of a officer is near something happening and does not assist then he can be up for both state and departmental charges.you jurisdiction in texas is not limited to just the area you work. you carry the power of arrest thru out the state