Traditional...Becoming the past?

[quigleysharps4570]

The ole traditional style rifles, be it flinter or caplock, seems to be becoming a thing of the past. Except for a small few it appears. Everywhere you go and about every site you see, in-lines, in-lines, in-lines. If they're not talking which new high powered sabot, it's which scope or which new replica powder or pellet is best. Have also noticed not many appear to like a beautiful wood stock anymore. Everyone's raving about synthetic of every color of the rainbow. Good lord! Don't know what's happened. Things have sure changed since I started into muzzleloading. It was in 1975 when I got started. Some of you all have alot more years in it than I do, so I can only guess how you all feel about it. The only good thing I'm seeing is the help a new person can get by going on the internet. Wish it'd a been around when I was starting. I had to do alot of reading and trial and error on my own. Around here I only knew one person that was shooting them, he got me started, but he was about as green at it as me. He ended up losing interest, but I hung in there and here I am today. :) Most stores I walk in, sabots, replica powder, pellets, in-lines or plastic accessories to go with the new muzzleloaders. At one time it was different, you could walk in one and see traditional rifles and kits. Had real powder horns or flasks, brass cappers and leather possibles bags. Powder was alot easier to get ahold of too. Now it appears all the regs are scaring the ones that use to sell it off. Don't know what it's gonna come to. I do know what it won't come to for this ole boy though. :) Thanks for listening to me rant guys.

[Gotcha!]

I agree - but you don't even want me to start ranting too!:eek:

[Skinny Shooter]

I'm not so sure about it fading away. Or at least around these parts.
Every year the crowds pack the Gunmaker's Fair up here so there seems to be lots of interest in the original guns.
To me, I'm shooting a part of history when I use my Pennsylvania Longrifle or Brown Bess.
Some guys may want to try something different than smokeless powder and the in-line gives them the opportunity to try burning charcoal in a simpler delivery platform.
I'd just never spend the money for an in-line. That would take the fun ( and nostalgia) out of the entire reason to use a flinter in the first place.
I've sorta slammed in-line users in the past and really shouldn't have. We're all gunowners first and shouldn't divide ourselves into groups that can be attacked by the Anti's. Like all of the semi owners were when the AWB went into effect.
Allen

[Adam Helmer]

quigley,

I hear what you are saying and, yes, many new shooters go right to the inlines. There is a hardcore of traditional folks like us. I am Corporal Brasso in the PA Bucktails and we have some younger lads in Civil War uniform for our parades and re-enactments. Also, a few local teenage lads have come by this farm to get checked out on flintlocks for the PA Traditional deer season.

I have read the Lewis & Clark Journals, saw "Drums Along the Mohawk" movie (1939) and "Last of the Mohicans" movie too many times to ever buy an inline or acquire a synthetic stock for a musket. Ok, so I am a Traditionalist and that is fine by me and my loyal Golden, Webley.

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Preachin' to the choir on this one!;) I don't "hate" inline users, but they have certainly bastardized the muzzleloading season here in MI. What was originally meant to be a primative season was quickly overshadowed by wording..........because it is termed "muzzleloading", anything that loads from the muzzle is considered a "muzzleloader":rolleyes: .........even if it shoots plastic sabots, powerbelts, 5 pyrodex pellets, ect. Wouldn't mind hunting with these boys if they wanted to load loose powder and shoot a lead projectile (no plastic), but they insist on stretching the range farther and farther......heard a claim of 400 yard shots this past fall.:( .....to me, that ain't what muzzleloading is all about! 'Plastic and pellets' will never touch this child's bore!

Like Adam, I grew up watching Fess Parker as Daniel Boone, watched "drums along the Mohawk", "Unconquered", "The northwest passage", and a serial of James Fennimore Cooper's "last of the mohicans" on CBC television. I used to pretend to be those people in the fields and woodlots around my home as I grew up. Those films/shows inspired me to read real accounts of those people, and I became a history buff (...and the rest is history;) ) As long as they make movies like "last of the Mohicans (with Daniel Day Lewis) and "The Patriot", I'll be pouring black powder down the muzzle of a musket!

[skeet]

[My favorite movie...Saw it last night. I have a new Savage smokeless inline but still have ad shoot my TC Hawken. In fact I'm looking to buy a TC Hawken in the flinter version. If I can find one anywhere.

[Gil Martin]

I started shooting blackpowder in 1970 with a .45 percussion T/C Hawken. My preference has always been for the flintlock and I started buying them. At last count I believe there were about a dozen tucked away around here. Waugh... This child ain't going to go under easily or quietly when it comes to shooting traditional muzzleloaders. That's the way my stick floats. All the best...
Gil

[popplecop]

The percussion cap is a new fangled idea and it will fade, just as shotshell primers. Flints will be here for ever. Have to admit to owning some traditional cap locks, but flinters is where it is at.

[Hoyt]

I went to the inline first...but the last few yrs. have gone in the opposite direction. I did all my spring gobbler hunting last season with a 12ga. T/C percussion...and am now building a .62cal. Early Virginia smooth bore flintlock to do this yrs gobbler hunting. Soon as I get through with it I'm going to build a flintlock with rifled barrel..probably .54cal. for my deer and hog hunting.

[wrenchman]

I have a side lock and have used it till this year but i am now running into a problim i cant see my front sight at dusk.
This left me with no choice but to go with a in line i will be puting a scope on it for light gathering at dusk.
I wish i could get fiber optick for my side lock
I dont think this is what it started out as i am also the last in my group to go to a inline.
i have been useing black powder and round balls till this year
i will most likely keep useing it when i hunt in areas that i can use my side lock.
I will misss useing my side lock but age is catching up on me
My wife bought it for a christmas presint one year when we were dateing
I have yet to even shoot my new inline i have herd that black powder is easyer to light then the pyrodex

[skeeter@ccia.com]

It seems lots in my area are returning to the flintlock...lots due to the length of hunting season. The after Christmas season ends this Saturday...I do think the rain has kept lots out of the woods though...We are fortunate to have a local resident that sells nothing but blackpower supplies.... we can get the old powderhorns handmade and anything else you can think of to take ya back to the good ole days..Sure glad he is here..I have heard a few talk about selling the inline to return to the round ball



Don't let what you can't do stop you from doing what you can do

[quigleysharps4570]

Would sure be nice to have a place like that to walk into.

[eldeguello]

Originally posted by Adam Helmer
quigley,

I hear what you are saying and, yes, many new shooters go right to the inlines. There is a hardcore of traditional folks like us. I am Corporal Brasso in the PA Bucktails and we have some younger lads in Civil War uniform for our parades and re-enactments. Also, a few local teenage lads have come by this farm to get checked out on flintlocks for the PA Traditional deer season.

I have read the Lewis & Clark Journals, saw "Drums Along the Mohawk" movie (1939) and "Last of the Mohicans" movie too many times to ever buy an inline or acquire a synthetic stock for a musket. Ok, so I am a Traditionalist and that is fine by me and my loyal Golden, Webley.

Adam

I may be wrong, but my impression is that those of us who were shooting ML rifles etc., all along, are still using the old-time actions mostly, but the people who are the hottest about the inlines, sabots, HV loads, etc., are people who have only joined us muzzleloader types since the advent of these contraptions, and BECAUSE of them. Otherwise, most of these people would still not be shooting ML's.... I still don't see why these people don't shoot their "superior" weapons during the regular seasons, if they are really so much better (NOT!!).

[gd357]

eldeguello,

I began hunting with a caplock muzzleloader simply to extend my time in the field with a gun. I had two misfires with two different caplock guns (both were the result of an oversight on my part, albeit a very miniscule detail). However, I didn't, and still don't have the time necessary to get much shooting in (and I never had any misfire when shooting at inanimate targets). So as a result, I shoot an inline. I'd love to get back into traditional muzzleloading, but until I have the time, I'll take the the reliability and simplicity of an inline. An inline is a wonderful way to go during gun season here (considering that we're limited to shotguns, muzzys and pistols). The only time it wouldn't make sense is during a deer drive, when the animals will be running and a second shot may be necessary. I know quite a few people who use caplocks, and a few who use flinters. There's a local muzzleloading club about a mile and a half from where my parents live, and most of the members use traditional gear, and dress the part of a "mountain man". It's a great organization, and one I'd like to be involved in when time constraints allow. I don't think it's a thing of the past, but it seems that it takes a while for younger shooters to appreciate the aesthetic value of traditional equipment. As they mature, and realize that a hunt doesn't have to end with a dead deer to be a success, they will gravitate to more challenging methods of hunting.

gd357

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I may be wrong, but my impression is that those of us who were shooting ML rifles etc., all along, are still using the old-time actions mostly, but the people who are the hottest about the inlines, sabots, HV loads, etc., are people who have only joined us muzzleloader types since the advent of these contraptions, and BECAUSE of them.

BINGO! El, I think you hit the nail on the head......inlines make it MUCH easier to hunt with a muzzleloader than using a traditional weapon; don't have to worry about matching patch size to ball size, working up a load, weighing out powder, ect,ect......and the game departments are using the special "muzzleloading" seasons now to control out of control deer herds, not so much to provide a positive "hunting" (not 'killing') experience. And for a lot of folks, it's all about the kill and not the hunt. What gripes me the most about some inline shooters is that they say there is NO difference between and inline and a traditional flintlock or caplock because they are single shots and load from the front; that's like saying there is no difference between a Model T and a Ferrari because they both have 4 wheels and a steering wheel!:rolleyes: :mad: Guess the same thing can be said of modern bowhunters; I wonder how many would be out in thier tree stands if the compound bow handn't been invented, and all the other gadgets and gizmos (carbon arrows, plastic fletching, bowsights, releases, changeable broadheads, ect) weren't available. Those of us who have shot "stick bows" and hunted with them know there IS a difference.

Quigley;
Quite interestingly, reread the title of your post...."Traditional...becoming the past?" Yes, traditional IS becoming the past; it let's you live as your forefathers did, and it takes you back to a better age (some say) where one didn't worry about mismanged game herds, politics in the F &W departments, antihunters, squabbles among hunters, people who only hunt for the biggest set of antlers, ect.

Guess I'm lucky that I have a traditional BP shop within 50 miles of my house....I can get my BP there, as well as lead, traditional supplies, ect. They also have a great gunsmithing dept, carry traditional gear such as candle lanterns, flint & steel, ect. and make period correct clothing.

[Gil Martin]

I went to the local Wal-Mart today to partake of their advertised "muzzleloading items sale". After roaming around the sporting goods area a few times, I flagged down a store employee. I asked for directions to the muzzleloading supplies, especially patches for round ball. He walked me over to an area that I had passed a few times. There were five (5) ,count them, pegs for muzzleloading stuff. All that remained were a few small packages of T/C nipples, a bushing pin and a jag for a ramrod. Last time I waste my efforts there. All the best...
Gil

[rattus58]

Traditional Rifles ARE a thing of the past. Many of the inlines and such are a thing of the present and someday they too will become a thing of the past.

From my perspective, the muzzleloader one chooses to hunt with is a personal choice. I hunt with every one of my muzzleloaders, whether musketoon, zoave, Big Bore, New Englander, White Mountain Carbine, Hawken , volunteer, UFA 50 stainless, Super 91 ..451 Stainless, Super91 .410 Blue(teflon), Elite 98 .504 Stainless, T-Bolt .451 Stainless, T-Bolt .410 Stainless -Teflon, T-bolt .451 STainless-Teflon . None have scopes. None shoots sabots. All shoot cast lead with homemade lubes. The only thing commercial about he loads is the powder, the percussion, and the wad I shoot.

The argument about muzzleloading today not being muzzleloading smacks of two things to me. One is intolerance for progress of OTHERS. Remember, NO ONE makes you SHOOT AN INLINE. You can shoot whatever you want to in the forest.

Two. People shoot what they are exposed to. So WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/rattus58/DSCF0038.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/rattus58/DSCF0042.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v305/rattus58/DSCF0044.jpg

This is how we expose kids to muzzleloading. What do you do? Who exposes the walmar types to other choices? Do you? I am a traditionalist straight through, but I sure do get tired of hearing of how the season was made to be something it was not or whatever... It is what it is. WE CHOOSE to be who we want to be in the forest.

400 yard shots? Don't be rediculous, these long shots have been made since the day guns were borne. I know a bonafide 600 yard elk stoppage with a .451 double rifle with a Lyman cast bullet on top of 100 grains of 2F black Powder. This was in my mind a most unethical shot.. but a lucky one and dropped the animal. A purist behind the trigger. So please, lets not blame the gun. My volunteer is easily a 300 yard gun. Its a natural 200 yard gun as it sits, in fact. The Zoave ... or indeed, ANY of the rifled muskets are 150 to 200 yard guns if one took the time to practice these shots. But for me, I like to see how close I can get to game. Can I get to 35 yards? That is my game. Have I taken long shots... yes. Have I ever lost game to a long shot? Yes. That is why I don't take them anymore. Wounding the game is NOT WORTH THE SHOT. That loss made me sick to my stomach and I looked for that doe for the rest of the day and tore up my tag... after all, I had drawn blood.

There is a gentleman here who says he USED to get upset with the inline crowd but doesn't anymore because her recognizes that we are part of the same community. AMEN to that. If you get to know more people who are shooting inlines, get to know them and shoot and hunt along side them with YOUR CAP LOCKS AND ROCK LOCKS. Expose them.

Whoever said it is easier shooting an inline over a caplock of ANY kind or cleaning one, has NOT SHOT AN INLINE very much. The older the gun the easier it is to load and to care for, in my opinion based upon practice and observation. Shooting a big lead conical is clearly easier to tune than is shooting sabots and pellets. But they have to be exposed.

We are all in the same encampment. We don't need to be divided. We need to be tolerant and willing to invest into our sports.

Much Aloha, :cool:

[quigleysharps4570]

Nice pics Rattus.

[rattus58]

Hi QuigleySharps ..

Thanks... its fun working with kids, the rewards are manifold. Some day I'll get them into black powder cartridge guns too.. won't that be a blast ... but I gotta git me one first... :)

Aloha.. :cool:

[quigleysharps4570]

Yessir...the lessons you are teaching them, they'll never forget. Or you either for that matter. Bet they'd really get a kick out of those cartidge guns. It's also like stepping back in time behind one of them too. Guess us blackpowder fans are some of the luckiest folks in the world huh? :)

[rattus58]

Hi Quigley... :)

One thing I have been able to benefit by are the kids themselves. Kids love shooting, whether a slingshot, a bow, a muzzleloader, a 22 ... you name it, they are drawn to the sport in any form.

The fact that black powder is a hands on sport, makes it more fun for them. We have had kids stay to shoot all day with the muzzleloaders, just as they would with a 22. They hit a can with a muzzleloader, and sometimes they get a huge eruption of dirt and grass along with it ... and they just love it.

One thing we like to do with the kids, is to have them go on an "easter bullet" hunt ... that is, look for the spent bullet in the ground after thay shoot. We use maybe 30 grains of powder with the real young kids and so the bullets don't get very deformed when shot into the ground, nor when it goes through the target and usually if you send them out to about 50 or 60 yards looking for spend lead, they will come back with a handful of them. Great fun for all actually.

Aloha.. :cool:

[MaIIIa]

I've been interested in your many comments on this thread since it started about a month ago; I guess it's about time to make my input.

Last August I helped out at the NRA's Youth Hunter Education Challenge (YHEC) muzzleloader event. It was my first time at this and I was quite surprised to see that almost all of the YHEC teams used inlines. I could count on one hand and have fingers left over the teams that used caplocks and I don't recall any using flintlocks. It is sad (at least to me) that whoever makes the decision about what teams shoot opt for the inlines. I suppose shooting the inlines gives teams an edge in the competition and, boy, are some of those teams super competitive - too much so, in my opinion.

It is true that, as Rattus58 says, "People shoot what they are exposed to. So WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?" So these young shooters who compete at YHEC are being exposed to inlines, not traditional muzzleloaders. Good or bad - that is opinion; in my opinion, it is unfortunate. Perhaps YHEC needs two ML events, one for inlines and one for tradionals.

As for exposing new shooters and what am I doing? I am ML instructor for NYS Becoming an Outdoor Women course and have the women shoot both flintlock and percussion rifles. I also am the organizer for our local Women on Target day and the women there shoot flintlock and percussion. I bring along an inline to give them a "complete" exposure to muzzleloading but in my experience, they look at the inline, then opt for the traditionals when time to shoot. One woman's comment sort of sums it up - "That inline looks just like the .22 rifles we were shooting; why bother?" The women I have taught really like the process of loading and shooting the traditional ML's and enjoy the historical aspect of them. They are intrigued by hang fires and flashes in the pan and all the other good stuft that just don't happen with inlines!

I've done some ML instruction with kids and they are really are turned on by the historical rifles "like Davy Crokett used". I haven't ever had them look for spent lead but I have had them search the ground for spent patches. We look at the burn patterns, then they take them home for souveniers - you would think they had found gold. Yes, we need to do more with the kids to expose them to the traditional guns! That's were we can get the next generation of traditional black powder shooters.

MaIIIa

[rattus58]

Hi MaIIIa ... :)

I have to completely agree with you that it really is a shame that we go about this backwards sometimes. I really do appreciate that you introduce new shooters to flintlocks and caplocks. Round here, though, no-one knows of Davey Crockett ... :(

I love old black powder guns, even though I sell the best of the inlines (my opinion anyway). I prefer to take kids shooting with a caplock over an inline for a host of reasons, not the least of which is the visual effect of the sidelock.

An introduction to muzzleloading is fostered sometimes by giving people a taste of the old days. Short stories of hunting or battle with the flintlock or caplock that you can pass out or pictures of period correct dress and caplocks and flintlocks as you talk about muzzleloading goes a long way in conjuring up the "proper" mindset.

Companies like Thompson Center are big in donating rifles to Hunter Education programs. They like to push their current products, but, you can ask for caplocks or flintlocks too.

As for accuracy when competing, this is really moot in the long run, but important in the short run. It takes the proper gun to be accurate. Long barreled guns are very very accurate and show up extremely well against the inline. This is with 40 caliber to 58 caliber (my exposure). The longer the barrel the better the shooter.

Big bullets or small, do extremely well out to maybe even 100 yards, but will out shoot many, if not all, inlines even to 50 yards. This I have seen too often to not give proper credit to the old time ball slingers.

You are to be congratulated for being involved. Heck if each of us on these threads would just get involved, we would do a great service to our sport.

Much Aloha,

Tom

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58 & MaIIIa,

Good chat about the smokepoles we know and love. I help out each August for Tioga County Youth Field Day and work the BP site. We run through about 150 kids ages 8 to 16 in groups of 30. We shoot .50 caliber ball at balloons on a target frame about 30 yards away. We had flintlocks one year, caplocks the next year and Black Diamond inlines last year. I noticed greater kid interest in the flinters and caplocks compared to the black synthetic stock on the inline.

I helped on the BP site at my local gun club last September when we had about 50 women come to the station where we had all three arms mentioned above. Lots of women never shot any firearm although their husbands owned and shot muzzleloaders. I found that people wary about guns in general were intrigued by old guns. The geometry of the flintlock was a popular discussion item.

Rattus makes a good point about relating some history of the arms during the shooting session. I tell the shooters that "this is like the guns of the Revolution" or "this is type of arm used by the old Mountain Men." Finally, I agree that we all need to share our expertise and powder and ball with new shooters, both young and old.

Adam

[rattus58]

Hi Adam .... Aint it fun though to teach someone about muzzleloading. You mentioned people being fearful of a gun. I have found tht if you go through the steps of teaching people how to measure, pour, load, prime/cap and shoot, that they lose their fear of guns and have a jolly good time of it... :)

Aloha.. :cool: