Sure was a big stink on the news last night about that 5.7 pistol

[DaMadman]

Man they were all kinds of lies flying and mud slinging, say that the ONLY person that would want to own one was a person that was interested in killing a COP.

Blanket statements like that just make the ignorant look MORE ignorant.

Whatta ya do?

[GoodOlBoy]

Do what I do shake your head, and pray. These types are the future of politics.

I don't even want to think about what the US is going to be like because of the liberal lies by the time I retire.

GoodOlBoy

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by GoodOlBoy
Do what I do shake your head, and pray. These types are the future of politics.

I don't even want to think about what the US is going to be like because of the liberal lies by the time I retire.

GoodOlBoy

Oh They spew that crap and I lose it. My wife thinks I am nutty as a fruitcake because I cuss at the T.V. when they start all the Antigun crap.

They acted like that gun in the 5.7 x 28 caliber was satan's right hand tool to end the earth last night.

I mean it is against the law already to own armour piercing ammo and the BATF concluded that the rounds that are for sale are not armour piercing. of course with a FMJ and a hard core the bullets could be, but that would make them illegal.

Just another case of blaming the gun for the capabilities of what COULD happen with the wrong person and the wrong ammo

[VinVega]

I don't know what you do, because if statistics don't talk, I don't know what do. The reason I say that is because I seriously wonder how many cop-killers want to go spend $800 on a gun that they'll just have to get rid of afterward. I also wonder how many COPs HAVE been killed by the Five-seveN.
The problem here is that the bullet was given the OK by the ATF, therefore it is not armor-piercing. The news agencies really need to stop lying to the people and helping them make decisions without even knowing what really happens. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but stuff like this really gets my blood boiling.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by VinVega
I don't know what you do, because if statistics don't talk, I don't know what do. The reason I say that is because I seriously wonder how many cop-killers want to go spend $800 on a gun that they'll just have to get rid of afterward. I also wonder how many COPs HAVE been killed by the Five-seveN.
The problem here is that the bullet was given the OK by the ATF, therefore it is not armor-piercing. The news agencies really need to stop lying to the people and helping them make decisions without even knowing what really happens. I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but stuff like this really gets my blood boiling.

Preach on Brother VinVega

I'll give you an amen :D

everything I watched last night was extreme blatant lies. I think the Gun manufacturers should be able to sue these clowns for defimation (sp) of character for telling such outlandish BS on T.V. where the Anti's and the "Don't know any betters" can here that crap.

I mean just as an example. I know a lady that is not against gun ownership she thinke if I want to own guns to hunt with and to defend my own home I should be able to. However I have heard on a few occasions that she would say that there is no reason for ANYONE to own a gun like that.

Once it was about Semi-auto shotguns and rifles. So I tried to explain to her that my father uses a Remington 1100 to deer hunt and has for the last 35 years. Why should that gun be illegal?
She started spewing som crap about something she heard on TV about how dangerous the gun was and how nobody needs to have 10 rounds to shoot a deer. I promptly rolled my Eyes, told her that before she decides that someone should lose the right to own a certain gun she should do a little research on an unbiased level. I explained that what she heard about SemiAuto guns was totally outlandish and complete lies, however I still think she believed what she heard on TV more than she did me.

I mean who would you believe. Someone that has hunted and been around guns for 30 years or some clown on TV that has never owned a gun of any kind and thinks nobody should be able to own them.

[gregarat]

So what if the Five and Seven can go through Kevlar. From what I can gather the cartrage isnt great for anything else.

[gregarat]

Madman,

TV about how dangerous the gun was and how nobody needs to have 10 rounds to shoot a deer. As if the T.V. journalist knows how many shots is needed? Thats funny!

I always thought it was as many as it took to anchor it;) :D

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by gregarat
So what if the Five and Seven can go through Kevlar. From what I can gather the cartrage isnt great for anything else.

The issue her is It totally depends on what the bullet is made out of. Not all 5.7 rounds are going to go through kevlar.

Just like a .223 isn't, unless it is made of certain material. If it is made of armour piercing material I agree that it should prolly be kept out of the hands out the public for the safety of LEO. But that law is already on the books.

Bottom line is it is not the gun, it is not the cartridge design, it is the material that the bullet is mad out of and that can be controlled the same way it is now

[VinVega]

I don't get the whole armor piercing non-sense anyway. From what I understand, a .30-06 FMJ (which you can easilly get from mil-surp distributors) could go through just about anything the police put in your way. A .50BMG could go through a lot more than what the police have, and it isn't considered armor piercing. There are a lot meaner rounds out there than the 5.7.

[gregarat]

Vin stated my point.

[HPBTMTCH]

This is always makes me scratch my head, you can`t armor piercing ammunition, BUT, you can buy the black tipped armor piercing steel core .30 cal bullet, the primed lake city brass, and the surplus powder. Go figure.

[fabsroman]

There are plenty of rounds that can go through a cop's vest. I am willing to bet that an officer on the receiving end of a 12 ga. shotgun sabot in full copper would be having a really bad day. I would also tend to believe that any Barnes X bullet, Winchester failsafe bullet, or other solid rifle bullet would go through a vest and I am extremely sure that a bullet designed to kill an elephant or rhino would go through a vest. Thing is, all of these bullets are for rifles and they are expensive, even if you reload. Sure, people can get handguns that shoot some of these rounds, but your average criminal isn't going to know what a TC Encore is, much less how to shoot them.

Let's keep in mind that Winchester black talons were outlawed because they were deemed cop killers. If my memory serves me correctly, they are almost the same bullet as the failsafe, just made for handguns.

It all comes down to what the average criminal is currently using as to what should be outlawed. If the average gang banger started using .50 BMG's, they should be outlawed. Now, lets all agree that the average criminal is not going to spend thousands of dollars on a gun.

[Andy L]

22lr will penetrate a vest. 357 mag wont. Go figger.

Bullet shape.

Andy

[fabsroman]

I wouldn't have thought that was true. Is it bullet shape or is it because the .22lr bullet is FMJ? For some reason, I just find it really hard to believe that a .22lr will penetrate a vest.

To make a long story longer, I bought a Hastings slug barrel for my BPS and in anticipation of receiving it, I bought some Remington copper solid sabots. Well, wouldn't you know it, the warning on the new barrel said not to use Remington copper solid sabots in the barrel. So, I gave them to my brother for him to use in home defense out of his Benelli SBE. He and I both have a friend that is a LEO and we were all over visiting my brother at his house one day. When this guy saw the copper solid sabot sitting on my brother's night table, he almost had a heart attack. I can understand why. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of that round, vest or no vest.

[Andy L]

Fabs, they sure will. Dont believe its the jacket. Tis the shape.

andy

[gregarat]

Andy,
What about the trama plate, inside the vest?

[Hawkeye6]

Here's what the ATF says about the pistol.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/fabriquen.htm

FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1/20/05

In response to numerous questions that ATF has received regarding the capabilities of the 5.7 X 28mm cartridge, the following technical information is provided.

FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber.





Type: Double Action Only or Single Action (in Tactical model).
Chambering: 5.7x28mm.
Length: 208 mm
Barrel length: 122.5 mm
Magazine: 20 rounds.

The FN 5.7 (Fabrique Nationale) pistol is a semiautomatic pistol in 5.7 X 28 mm caliber approved for importation as a sporting firearm.

The classification of all ammunition is governed strictly by the definitions presented in the GCA. Specifically, as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 921(a)(17)(B), the term "armor piercing ammunition" means-

a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or


a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.
FTB has also examined a 5.7 X 28 mm projectile that FN Herstal has designated the "SS196." The SS196 is loaded with a Hornady 40 grain, jacketed lead bullet. FTB classified SS196 ammunition as not armor piercing ammunition under Federal firearms statutes.

According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing.

FNH USA has informed FTB that SS192 is no longer imported for commercial sale to the United States and that commercial sales of 5.7 X 28mm ammunition are restricted to the SS196 (not armor piercing).

FN Herstal 5.7 X 28mm Ammunition

SS190 - Armor piercing (AP)
SS191 - AP Tracer
SS192 - Hollow Point (not AP)
SB193 - AP Subsonic
SS195 - "Green" - lead free hollow point projectile with copper jacket (not AP)
SS196 - Sporting round (Hornady 40 gr. V-max, hollow point lead), (not AP)
10700004 Blank (not classified as ammunition under Federal law)
10700005 Dummy




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Hawkeye6]

Originally posted by Andy L
Fabs, they sure will. Dont believe its the jacket. Tis the shape.

andy

Andy:

Like Fabs said, this is hard to believe. Can you give any reference for the ability of a .22LR to penetrate a vest? I agree that the copper coating (not really a jacket) would not be much of a factor. What is it about the shape that enables it to penetrate a vest?

You've really piqued my curiosity on htis one.

H.

[Andy L]

Ill have to look around to see where I read that. I did read it though. And, the local game warden, well he was for 30 years, told me about it too. It could not be true, maybe?? But I did see an article on it.

After seeing the article, I was talking to the gamewarden about it and he backed it up. He said they were trained that the 22lr was a LEOs nightmare for armour, due to the penetration. The shape of the bullet, coupled with the velocity at short range, made it great for penetration, I believe was the cause. He was telling me they are much more dangerous to them than 32, 380, ect....

Ill see what I can find. Im bad to read stuff and then not keep it. If I posted false info, well Im sorry. Just one of those things that stick in your head. Didnt think twice about it.

I do think its right though.....

Andy

[VinVega]

I would think a .22lr going through a vest might also have something to do with the size of the round and the mesh of kevlar. According to two friends of mine in the Marines, they were told in training that a .22lr will penetrate kevlar. I've never tested it, and don't know of any tests, but that's what the word 'round the campfire is.

[HPBTMTCH]

What about the .17 HMR? It`s chambered in handguns, and is smaller in diameter than the .22lr.

[Andy L]

I did some checking. I couldnt find what I had read. I hope I didnt cause any problems IF this is wrong.....

I am going to talk to the LEO that I talked with about it and a couple of other LEO buddies about. I know what I read, and what I was told. As I said, the Game Warden said that in their training, they were told that the 22lr was their worst nightmare. Kinda like "hit men" using 22s. No mess. Enters a skull and bounces around like a pin ball making mashed potatos out of the brain.

I will research it some more.

I did several searches trying to find that article. Of course, all the body armor manufactures wouldnt tell it if it would. I did find one interesting private test study. The guy that did it discounted the 22lr, saying he didnt think in merited testing. He did test a 9mm, 40SW and 45ACP. The 9mm went through clean and the others didnt at all.


If the 22lr is true, VinVega may have hit it on the head. The shape of the little bullet going through the mesh. (This is considering it as lightweight concealable, not steel.)

Ill do some more checking, I was just quoting from memory earlier, now Im truely interested.

Take Care. (Please, no one go shoot themselves with anything to do a home test. ;) :D )

Andy

[denton]

They make vests in different grades. Even the best of them isn't going to stop most rifle bullets.

Total lack of information never stopped the news media from having an opinion.

I'll agree right away that most news reporters are reasonably benign. However, since they are influencing public opinion, it seems to me that they have a special responsibility. Careless and unfounded opinions might lead people to do dangerous things. So doesn't it stand to reason that news reporters should be specially trained, and certified by the government? And shouldn't the government check their stories before they put them out? They should have to have a special permit, because they are so dangerous.



[It's sarcasm, guys.]

We ought to ban dangerous items. Let's start with typewriters (Frank Lloyd Wright)

[VinVega]

Here's a link to the Brady Campaign video for what the 5.7 can do:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/ler/fnh/

Now I'm going to give a spoiler out...they shoot it with a 12ga slug and it absolutely destroys the vest, but doesn't puncture. It's a belly shot, and they guy who does the video has the gall to say it probably caused massive internal bleeding, but was probably not fatal. I have to say, if it were a chest shot, I'd bet it would be instantly deadly, penetration or not.

[LoneWolf]

Just watched the full video. What a bunch a horse puckey!

In my opinion the 5.7 penetrated specifically because of its smaller sizer and pointed projo. Very similar to why a vest will not stop a 22 or for that matter a knife.
But the most disturbing part of the video, to me, is when he states "this round serves no purpose for the public":mad:
If some individual has a bad day (as he put it) and goes nuts on an officer, there are no guarantees the officer will make it out because of the vest alone, nor the cartridge used. Bottom line, bad people do bad things. And does anyone know of statistics anywhere that show when the last shooting rampage or flip out was done by a legal CCW owner?
Here in Michigan, this was the argument that the antis used against our new CCW law, that someone would go nuts and start shooting people. In the couple of years it has been in effect, to my knowledge, this has never happened.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Guys this is one of the problems we have. Once a statement hits the media, audio, video or print, a certain percentage of people are going to adopt that statement as correct and proper. The media loves it, especially if it involves a controversial subject like gun control (bans). Sensationalism sells advertisement. I deal with the media some in my line of work...try to tell them something good or positive...they don't want to hear it.
The anti-gunners get a free ride every time, they get air time from any negative aspect of gun ownership. Have you ever seen them cover a scouting or 4-H marksmanship event? Do you see any of the shooting events in the olympics?
And tell me HOW when the media does interview a gun owner... it's ALWAYS bubba!!!!!!!!!!!!