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View Full Version : Character test- GERMANY FAILS IN A BIG WAY!


foto
01-31-2005, 03:21 AM
These are our allies? I knew the democrats and the rest of world claims we are a bunch of conservative bible thumpers but I had no idea how different we were until I read this. I find it incredible and wonder if the people over here clambering for us to be more modern really know where that the road leads. I always thought that deep down in their hearts the europeans were still our allies, just a little shortsighted, but if this is what they call civilized and an average german thinks is okay I got a problem. Geez, the world is getting really strange when i start to think i have may have more in common with the avg arab than your everyday german. We may never again be allied with europe as strongly as we were in the past, we may really be too different. Is it me or is anyone else surprised that this kind of problem can exist in a "enlightened" country.

Check it out.


A 25-year-old waitress who turned down a job providing "sexual services'' at a brothel in Berlin faces possible cuts to her unemployment benefit under laws introduced this year.

Prostitution was legalised in Germany just over two years ago and brothel owners – who must pay tax and employee health insurance – were granted access to official databases of jobseekers.

The waitress, an unemployed information technology professional, had said that she was willing to work in a bar at night and had worked in a cafe.

She received a letter from the job centre telling her that an employer was interested in her "profile'' and that she should ring them. Only on doing so did the woman, who has not been identified for legal reasons, realise that she was calling a brothel.

Under Germany's welfare reforms, any woman under 55 who has been out of work for more than a year can be forced to take an available job – including in the sex industry – or lose her unemployment benefit. Last month German unemployment rose for the 11th consecutive month to 4.5 million, taking the number out of work to its highest since reunification in 1990.

The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars. As a result, job centres must treat employers looking for a prostitute in the same way as those looking for a dental nurse.

When the waitress looked into suing the job centre, she found out that it had not broken the law. Job centres that refuse to penalise people who turn down a job by cutting their benefits face legal action from the potential employer.

"There is now nothing in the law to stop women from being sent into the sex industry," said Merchthild Garweg, a lawyer from Hamburg who specialises in such cases. "The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

Miss Garweg said that women who had worked in call centres had been offered jobs on telephone sex lines. At one job centre in the city of Gotha, a 23-year-old woman was told that she had to attend an interview as a "nude model", and should report back on the meeting. Employers in the sex industry can also advertise in job centres, a move that came into force this month. A job centre that refuses to accept the advertisement can be sued.

Tatiana Ulyanova, who owns a brothel in central Berlin, has been searching the online database of her local job centre for recruits.

"Why shouldn't I look for employees through the job centre when I pay my taxes just like anybody else?" said Miss Ulyanova.

Ulrich Kueperkoch wanted to open a brothel in Goerlitz, in former East Germany, but his local job centre withdrew his advertisement for 12 prostitutes, saying it would be impossible to find them.

Mr Kueperkoch said that he was confident of demand for a brothel in the area and planned to take a claim for compensation to the highest court. Prostitution was legalised in Germany in 2002 because the government believed that this would help to combat trafficking in women and cut links to organised crime.

Miss Garweg believes that pressure on job centres to meet employment targets will soon result in them using their powers to cut the benefits of women who refuse jobs providing sexual services.

"They are already prepared to push women into jobs related to sexual services, but which don't count as prostitution,'' she said.

"Now that prostitution is no longer considered by the law to be immoral, there is really nothing but the goodwill of the job centres to stop them from pushing women into jobs they don't want to do."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/01/30/wgerm30.xml

Dom
01-31-2005, 05:48 AM
Don't worry about it foto -- there's weird stuff that makes the news in every country in the world -- and for the most part has nothing in common with the average citizen. It's always the bizarre that makes the news. How much did the lady get for spilling her hot coffee while driving? And an instance like Janet Jackson's bloobie isn't even noticed, let alone make the news in most of the world. There's the good, the bad, and the exception anywhere you go. News is only news if it's bad or out of norm with the majority of the population. Look how many stories you read on how worthless we are in Iraq -- but I can guarantee you there are hundreds of good news stories going on over there, you just won't read about them, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

gregarat
01-31-2005, 12:01 PM
And an instance like Janet Jackson's bloobie isn't even noticed, let alone make the news in most of the world. There's the good, the bad, and the exception anywhere you go. News is only news if it's bad or out of norm with the majority of the population. So bloobies being flashed is the norm in Germany?;) .

gumpokc
01-31-2005, 07:45 PM
Foto,

What Dom said is true, but also, whomever wrote that story really needs to get their facts straight.

Prostitution has been legal in Germany for _many_ years.
Maybe it wasen't carried by the job assistence centers, but i know for a fact it had been a legalised profession for quite some time prior to 1983, which was when i was first stationed in germany.

The girls had to have a "green" card, that showed they had been checked by a doctor for general health, and STD's which had to be updated at least every 2 weeks if i remember correctly.

Hell we all had classes on it in reception station upon arriving in germany, on _if_ a person chose to make use of their services, what to ask for/look for.

The cathouses were usualy some of the best clubs to go to anyway, whether you decided to "partake" or not.

It was even unofficially encouraged to some extant, and was pointed out to us that at least the "ladies" had regular health checkups, and yo unever knew where the gals on the street you might pickup had been.

Sorry if that offends any of our ladies here, just relaying what we were told at the time.

Also, while there were some peopel who did look down upon it as a profession, by and large, the vast majority of Germans that I had contact with simply viewed it as that particular person choice for a job, and had no moral delimmas with it.

jon lynn
02-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Gump pretty much has it, the oldest profession has always been legal in Germany (or should I say the German speaking lands pryor to the Kiaser days).

After WWII it was a controlled thing, and the licensing involved is a long and drawn out process. I knew a woman for years, who was married and happy and everyone likes and respects her, she was a former 'pro' and trust me, straight from the horses mouth..............'it ain't easy' being a legal one.

Now about the German 'PRESS', I could babble on and on about so called news I read while in the Bundesrepublik, lets just say the National Enquiror is about as truthful as the majority of German newspapers.................the facts are drenched in slim-fast (I mean real thin!) at best.

Imagine this, every German I know who seen that 'Bowling for Columbine' thinks it is a fact filled, true documentry. I tried to explain that the only facts in that movie (not documentary) that George Bush was president of the US, and Charelton Heston was president of the NRA.................wasted effort, they are so used to sensationalism, they take it as truth, and they just may fall for this article also.

There may be the smallest smidgen of truth for this article, kind of like 'based on a true story' thing, but as written here, I guarentee it is a crock-o-crud.

gregarat , in Germany, they flash all kind's of things, and nobody really cares..........................;) JON
(and for those who don't know me, I lived 7 of my 10 active Army years in Germany, and stayed 12 years as a working in German) factories

jon lynn
02-01-2005, 07:27 PM
I should have stated earlier..........this article is from the DAILY TELEGRAPH, it's more like the daily version of a super market tabloids. Had I noticed that from jump street, I wouldn't have bothered to write that last posting............um........well...................yes I would have!

ds
02-01-2005, 11:39 PM
foto,

Quite frankly, who the hell are we to judge what Germans can or cannot do? For that matter, who the hell are we to dictate what the German government can or cannot do?

Germany is a democratic nation just as we are (well we are really a Republic so ideologically we are democratic but electorally we are not). Regardless, MAJORITY rules. If most Germans want to do have legal prostitues....what business is it of ours. We don't live there, we don't pay their taxes, its THEIR country for the love of God.

What are we know, the damned Christian Talliban? Follow our morals and views or suffer or wrath?

If Iraq wants to VOTE themselves a radical Shiite Muslim Constitution, should we ban it? If it's THEIR choice, how could we justify it?

I find this whole "character test" ridiculous. Personally, I believe a man has the right to swing his arms, but that right ends where my nose begins. My nose is NOT in Germany, so why the hell do I care what they do with their sex organs?

foto
02-02-2005, 02:09 PM
"The government had considered making brothels an exception on moral grounds, but decided that it would be too difficult to distinguish them from bars."
"The new regulations say that working in the sex industry is not immoral any more, and so jobs cannot be turned down without a risk to benefits."

The point was to make it clear to everyone that this is government sanctioned prostitution which does not allow for any personal religous/moral views. Take a look at your 18 year old unemployed daughter and tell me how you feel when they tell her to start **ing or lose her benefits. Maybe you can go visit her at "work". Hell, since its a government approved job, I bet she wouldn't even be able to turn you down without facing a discrimination lawsuit, and again, there is nothing immoral about it per german law. ( I don't think all of you realize the implications of government approval, if you don't have a daughter, imagine your single or married mom not being able to turn down such "work". Hell , in the right area you may even have to worry. Imagine being unemployed and being forced to "perform" and it ain't going to be with some beautiful women , more likely some ugly woMAN or lose your unemployment benefits. Makes me want to hurl right now. Hey but its okay, nothing immoral about it.

Now as for telling anyone or any country what to do, where have I tried to do that?
I am not claiming anything should be done about it, I am merely pointing out how different our countries have become on moral issues and that the closeness we once shared with many countries based on shared heritage and values and common enemies may no longer be applicable. We might not be able to patch up our relationship with our "allies" as easily as some of us had imagined.
As for the "Christian taliban"I have not sought or asked for any any wrath or anything else for that matter to be poured out upon anyone or any country. You are looking a little too deep into my post and imagining a whole bunch of issues you plucked from your own head. I did not propose any of the things your imagining, please re-read my post. All I said was that i looked upon this as a character test and i believe the germans are failing big time. However thats something the germans will have to fix or live with, I have not proposed anything to correct it. I am allowed to comment aren't I?

ds
02-02-2005, 07:57 PM
You are the one who stated not so tacitly that to be our allies you must share our moral values. Hence, quite obviously you believe that failure to share our "moral" code results in an inability or unworthiness to associate with us in an allegience sort of way, which befuddles me a little because I always thought that "allies" were formed rather militaristic goals not social ones. Apparently according to your logic posted here, failure to follow Christian doctrine is grounds for ostrication as one of allies.

I find it strange that you do not decry China whose deplorable practices include killing baby girls among other atrocities. Perhaps cheap American goods are worth the "moral cost"? Funny, but I have deep inclination that many "conservaties" relgion and Christian values go no deeper than their savings account.

You stated you have more in common with the average "Arab" which I assume means Muslim Fundamentalist. Maybe you mean something else, but for the life of me, having spent some time in the Middle East, I can't see too many similiarities between them and Americans unless you consider theocratic government. If you meant we have something else in common with the Arabs, just let me know what it is.

As for my daughter being unemployed and having to lose benefits for turning down a brothel job, again majority rules. Obviously their legislatures made the law as representatives of the people's will, so once again, I must pose the question "Do you only follow the rules that you LIKE?" I believe that philosphy would be akin to anarchy, not democracy. Remember, if I were a German (which I am not), I would have a choice. If my daughter did not want to work in a brothel or lose benefits she could

1) get another job
2) move somewhere else

Darkwolf
02-02-2005, 11:03 PM
:mad: Sorry but I cannot agree with the "It's legal so we can force you to do it or starve" response. Forcing a woman to go into sexual service or loose the social assistance that allows her to eat and pay the rent is nothing more that official and state-sanctioned rape.

I'm sure they have an exception for a muslim citizen who will not accept being forced to work in a pork slaughterhouse... Or a Jew who is told he must accept a secretarial position for the German National Democratic Party (who espouse anti-semetic laws and positions)

Forcing a woman to submit to sexual action under duress and threats can only be called one thing.

RAPE


End of subject.


And if it's national policy....

....well we hanged the last group of German Leaders who enacted laws that violated Human Rights.
:mad:

Darkwolf
02-02-2005, 11:57 PM
...low smoulder...
http://www.snopes.com/media/notnews/brothel.asp

There remains the possibility this may not YET be enforced but instead raised as a potential problem. If so it still needs to be addressed.

This is not a simple "religious difference issue" but as essential human right issue, like the Rape Camps of the Balkans...