"Perfect" deer caliber/rifle...lol......

[Gatorbum]

MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm new here and was reading back through some of your posts. I love you guys!!

Heh, heh, heh..........Closeknit, able to argue, agree to disagree...My kind of folks.

Just so you'll know, I'm mostly a bowhunter though my rifle shooting experience is extreme. My confidence gun is a semi-custom built Whitworth Mauser in 25/06. When it fires, something dies. Period. It had 2000+ rounds fired through it before firing a factory load. I was a bigtime handloader but stopped many years ago. No time anymore and not nearly as convenient as it was. I had a 400 yard range in my yard so I could litterally step to the door and fire a round to check pressures.

As do you all, I have my opinions as well. I hate discussing energy figures of cartridges simply because bullet construction decides how much of that energy is actually used "Within the intended target"!!! That is the crucial factor.

Anyways, take care and I look forward to meeting you all here.

Tony

[Rocky Raab]

Howdy, Tony. Oddly enough you sound like our kind of guy, too!

(Well, except for that non-reloader thing.)

Welcome aboard.

[Gatorbum]

Thanks for the welcome Rocky.

I do miss my handloading some but just do not have the time anymore. I'm not at all disappointed in the performance of a lot of the new factory ammo so I am ok with off the shelf now.

By the way, I am also a deer processor in the winter so I get the chance to see a whole lot of bullet performance. Very interesting to talk with my clients and see their perspective of things. I can generally find out real quick who is experienced and who isn't....heh, heh, heh

Tony

[Jack]

Welcome to Huntchat, Gatorbum.
Funny you should mention the 25-06. Had one of those, a Ruger 77 Mk2. Loaned it to a friend. He proceeded to kill 4 deer with 4 shots, and then made me an offer for it I couldn't turn down. ;)

[Evan03]

havent taken deer with my 2506 yet, but in my opion it is the best of the best when it comes to deer only calibers. its fast flat acurate and does it all with factory ammo,

im kinda in your shoes. i reload for both my 270wsm and 2506. latly ive been loadinf for the wsm just for the simple fact that i havent found the acuracy i want outa facotry ammo. i tested about 8 difrent powder charges in the wsm and finaly found one i liked that pushed the 140gr nolser bt just hair faster than 3000fps. i found this process a true pain in the ass. grrrr


my 2506 shoots about every thing i feed it plenty acurate enough to keep me happy, my load of choice is some kinda powder pushn some kinda charge, undere the 100gr nolser balistic tip. cant remember the load or powder off hand but i do know it keeps me happy.

it also like 100gr factory rem core lokts. this facotry ammo shooots so well ive almost quit reloading for it. the facotry rem core lockt load is fairly slow and the bullet bc leavs something to be desired but it just flat out works doesnt matter if im shootn at 100yds or 400. more often then not the varmit is sent tumbling and peices are flying.

so i gree the 2506 along with all the other 257 calibers make great deer only rifles and when deers on the menu youl never be left wanting more.

Evan

[Gatorbum]

Thanks Evan and I agree. I've never actually found a bad load for my 25. The absolutely easiest rifle I've ever developed a load for. It just shoots everything great. I've never seen a factory load open up more than a one inch group. Very impressive cartridge. Niedner did good.....

I had a 308 Ruger Ultra light that I wondered if I would ever get it to shoot anything. Finally found 2 loads, one light load for my wife and a heavy load for me. Mine was simply a Nosler solid base, 150gr., and 3031 powder. Pretty well maxed out charge I had to compress powder with the bullet seating. This was only after doing everything imaginable to the gun and 3 full pages of a legal pad of loads tested. Actually her load is kind of interesting. I took a Sierra boat tail soft point in varmint weight, 125gr., and loaded it down to just above 30/30 velocities. Very mild recoil even in that super lightweight rifle and the first deer she killed was a 218 pound 10 point at 150 yards. Perfect mushroom just under the skin on the off side. Wrecked him really good and he ran about 75 yards. At full velocities that bullet explodes but keeping it slow makes it perform perfectly.

I cannot imagine a "Better" all around deer cartridge than my 25/06. JMHO and hundreds of dead whitetails and hogs could tell you as well.....heh, heh, heh

Take care

Tony

[Dom]

Welcome to HC Gatorbum, tho I ain't got nothing against the quarter bores and even have a Vanguard in 25-06, it's a mighty fine caliber, just not my first choice. I guess it's because I got so many other great calibers at my disposal!! By the way, can you hunt gators with a bow? That might be interesting, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Gatorbum;
It's nice to have a favorite caliber, it's even nicer to discuss favorite calibers with some one who recognizes that a number of calibers will get the job done!
best to you and yours...
ears-

[Hi Ball]

Greetings Hunters! I just wanted to say hello and howdy howdy.

I reckon I have hunted whitetail deer with more types of rifles than I can remember (brain arthritis says the doc!) including my first 300 Win mag but once I got the hang of a model 70 1/4 bore (25-06) the wife bought me some years back, I just knew after it's first hunt, nothing was going to replace it in my hands as my go to gun......Amen.

[model 70]

Best deer round? Simple

.270win
130gr. ammo
end of story.

[Andy L]

Welcome Gatorbum!!

Cant blame you for the 25-06. Awesome deer cartridge. I like mine ALOT.

I was waiting for the O'Connor fan to pipe up. :D

Here we go again......

Andy

[Evan03]

looks like the 257 cals are takin the ranks.

6 vots for 257
1 for 277

and one wildcat .25/308


im bound and determined to get deer with my 270wsm, i branded the rifle as mine this last deer season in one pack in hunt. rifle looks more like its 10 years old than 2. its very acurate and awesome handling rifle. recoil is very managable, and thats saying alot comeing from me. i run from recoil.

everything in a standerd cartridge from 6mm-300win will make a very good deer gun, difrent tastes and styles of hunting will decide what caliber is best out the bunch.

[model 70]

What advantage to they have over the .277 other than sentimental value?

[Andy L]

Reverse the question??

[Rocky Raab]

The same advantage that the 277 has over the 284!


(Meaning damn little, except for what we like best, and THAT is how this thread started!)


Oh, and I guess that wildcat 25-308 is my little baby. But I do like it a lot!

[model 70]

As far as factory loading, the .277 is loaded in a wider range of bullet types and what not. Same thing with the .257 as the .284

.277 beats them all hands down. That is, when you compare them with equal case sizes.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Hey...model 70;

....are you sayin' that since you like beans...I don't need to plant 'taters?

[Gatorbum]

Good one ears...

And Rocky, that 25/308 sounds interesting but an awful lot like an old favorite, 250/3000. Probably getting a bit more velocity huh? Tell me more........

Guys, this thread was started "Tongue in cheek" simply as a play on a previous thread. There is "NO" perfect deer rifle. It is too personal of a choice between folks. They are all perfectly capable of doing what is necessary. The perfect rifle? Mine or yours or his or hers. Whichever YOU have the most confidence in.

If you want to debate something, debate the value of bullet construction. Do you want it to use ALL of the energy available and stay within the target (No exit hole) or something to blow on through not knowing how much of its energy was used but having an exit hole? Afterall, it is the BULLET that kills, not the caliber. JMHO

Take care and NO FIGHTING :D

[Rocky Raab]

GB, the 25-308 isn't my personal creation, but it's a very overlooked wildcat.

In case capacity (and even shape), the 308 just about exactly matches the vaunted 250 Savage Ackley Improved. Old Parker Otto thought that was one of his best creations - but the 308 wasn't around then. I bet if it had been, he'd have just necked it down and the 250 AI wouldn't have happened.

I reasoned that necking down is a whole passel easier than blowing out a case, and if the outcome is identical, why mess with it?

Read my whole article on it (the link to my page is below). It's nice. Even Evan likes it!

[fabsroman]

I was waiting for Model 70 to chime in. He always makes a "No Perfect Deer Cartridge" thread interesting.

I agree completely with Gatorbum, in that bullet construction/ability is the big thing that matters.

[Gatorbum]

Rocky,

I went to your site and low and behold I was stunned. You had the most elaborate testing of the old 256mag. I have ever seen!

I was delighted to say the least. I have been shooting the 256 in a Marlin 62 for over 35 years! The last factory ammo a buddy found for me was a gun show and cost me $75. I have tried a few of the commercially available custom loads with little success. I have loading dies and have loaded some myself however case head seperation was an issue. Seems you have to match the fired case to the specific gun (I had 2 rifles) and then neck size only. Creating cases out of nickled 357 brass made a very wicked looking load with some old Hornady 60 gr. spirepoints! Making the cases was a nightmare however. By annealing them in a cast iron frying pan on the stove and then quickly putting them through the full length die, I achieved reasonable sucess without crumpling them all.

I have quit loading my own but would give anything to find some great hunting load for my rifle. It is not overly accurate with the factory loads (Maybe11/2-2") but devastating on game. I have killed lots of deer with it and it does a fine job at close to moderate range. Kids have killed their first deer with it many times at 50-100 yards. I love it and would most likely never actually get rid of it but would surely like to know if Icould get better accuracy out of a great expanding hunting load.

Are you interested in playing with it?

Take care

Tony

[Andy L]

Gator,
I know it was tongue in cheek, but like Fabs, I was just waiting for mod 70 to show up. He just cant stand it. :D

There are alot of perfect deer rifles. You are correct on that. Many will get the same desired results with different combinations as well. (Even though the 270 is out performed on both the lower and upper ends of the bullet range by other rifles. :D ) Sorry, couldnt resist......

Your gonna fit in great here. Glad to have you aboard.

Andy

[Hi Ball]

Well now fellar's, if your gonna be talking "wildcats" lets talk about a real wildcat that will make the so called .270 shooters take 2 steps backwards in amazement Okey Dokey.

How about a .25/300WSM! Now that ought to make the skeptics take a real hard look at reality I suppose. It sure does turn a head or two around these parts. Place a 120 grain Nosler Partition or Sierra Boatail bullet in the chamber and it will certainly straighten out any notion about rainbow trajectories I mean to tell yall. The last reading I took off my chrony was around 3450fps give or take a foot or two. Now how's that fer a bean field shooter?;) ;)

[Gatorbum]

Holy mother of God!

I want one.........

I bet that thing erodes barrels a bit but if you only really hunted with it you could use it a long time. How's accuracy? All the 25's I've ever dealt with or heard about have been exceptional shooters. Is this one that easy to find a pet load for?

Take care

Tony

[M.T. Pockets]

Reading a little Elmer Keith last night, there was a picture of his wife with a Mule Deer she took with a .333 OKH (about the same numbers as today's .340 Weatherby). He said it was a fine deer rifle.

[denton]

I've been carefully looking at the bullet performance chart that was posted on another thread. Very revealing. There is a lot to the statement that bullet construction is possibly as important as caliber.

My present theory is that anything from .25" diameter to .323" diameter, at least 100 grains for the smaller bores, more for the larger ones, and good bullet construction is going to produce a dead deer with decent shot placement. Everything beyond that is just personal preference.

I'm even back to flirting with the idea that a 243, with a 100 grain Grand Slam, at 3,000 fps is adequate for pronghorn (125 pounds). Some of you may remember that I was gravitating toward the other side of that issue.

[model 70]

Naw, if you like "taters", eat them. If you're hungry and need something cheap and convenient, it's the beans that you want.

many cartridges out perform the .270win

the 7mm rem mag, .300win mag and other calibers out perform the .270 but why do you need all that recoil and muzzle blast to shoot a deer further than what MOST hunters can see? I'm simpley stating the .270 is the best all around round.

[Andy L]

:D

[Hi Ball]

Model 70.......I'll only tell you to listen up and read this cause the 25-06 can do anything the .270 can do and the recoil is lighter yet by some 40% if your worried about loosing the fillings in your teeth OK.

I reckon you could even go down a notch, to the .243 that so many seem to think is for killing rats and varmints only. It too has enough energy to kill whitetail deer at 300 yards using a premium bullet. My brother in law years ago kill more elk (under 150 yards) than any 3 average elk hunters in their lifetime using the very caliber. Just put that little bullet in the kill zone and the animal will be yours, with proper bullet weight and construction.

[Gatorbum]

with proper bullet weight and construction.

Hi Ball, I hope you don't mind but I will add to that quote just a bit.

"For the velocity at which it is fired".

CALIBER means NOTHING compared to bullet construction/performance.

Here's my 270 story. When I was young, I bought an old Rem. 760 in 270. Steel butt plate and ribbing on the forearm similar to a Mod. 12 winchester. Great gun but it would slam the crap out of you. Too much drop in the stock which made it kick too much. That gun nearly ruined me. I developed a flinch bad enough I could not even shoot my 22 accurately anymore. I finally managed to get over it but it took a lot of time and effort. Now this was more the fault of the GUN and not the caliber. It killed very well.

Now my 243 story. I traded that 270 for a Win. Model 88 in 243. God I loved that rifle. No recoil to speak of and incredibly accurate. (Later as I began to reload, that Mod.88 would shoot as well as ANY bolt gun!) The only problem was that the caliber would not kill reliably with factory ammo. Make perfect shots and the deer would run off like they weren't even hurt. Bullet performance was absolutely terrible and thus gave the 243 a bad reputation as a wounder. (An example: I shot a 200 pound hog behind the shoulder with a Rem. 80 gr. bullet. He ran so I shot him again going away. Hit him in the right ham and upon dressing him I found the bullet in the v formed were the bottom jaw comes together at his nose. This is supposed to be a varmint bullet yet it shot LENGTHWAYS through a big hog with very little damage. When I got to the hog I finished him off with a 22 mag. behind the ear. I was NOT happy with my 243) I turned to reloading premium bullets (Pet load was an 85gr. Sierra HP) and this gun would kill like lightning. Load that 243 with Partition bullets or one of the other premium bullets and you have as good as it gets for DEER to 300+ yards. By the way, just to tell you how terrible the factory rounds really were, I shot anti-freeze jugs full of water at 350 yards and thought I was missing. Reality was that those bullets, 80gr. and 100gr. from Rem. and Win., were simpply poking holes and draining the water without any shock effect at all! Shot those same jugs with that 85 grainer or my partition load and it exploded, even at that extreme range. THE BULLET IS BY FAR THE MOST IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF EVERY CALIBER. IMHO

Take care

Tony

[Andy L]

Gatorbum,
Bet you had no idea your tounge in cheek intro was gonna fire this back up, this much, did you? :D

I was sitting here giggling ever since you wrote the first post, waiting for model 70 to pipe up. We all know there are many deer rifles that could be considered perfect. None will kill one deader than the next. From the 243 to the big mag boomers. They all work great. Some will do better than others on paper, but in the field, your gonna get the same results with a wide range of rifles/bullets combos, if you do your job.

Thanks for bringing this back up. Its entertaining anyway. Ill say it again, the 270 is a good rifle if you can only afford one gun (but if thats the case, your still better off with a 30-06). But the 25-06 out performs it with lighter bullets and less recoil and the 280 outperforms it with heavier bullets and about the same recoil. (However in the ones that I have shot, the 280 mountain rifle had less recoil than the 270 bdls I shot.)


True Story. :D

Andy

[Hi Ball]

Allen.........I must agree that there are many a fine caliber that one could tag as the "perfect" whitetail deer gun. I myself have used most of those calibers over the years and can varify that bigger is NOT BETTER when it comes to whitetail deer hunting.

I remember the first time (1963) I used a 300 Win mag (Belgium Browning Rifle) with a 150 grain bullet out the barrel. Why that bullet hitting the shoulder, darn near took that deer in half at 40 yards! I can put that 7mm mag into the same catagory up close using the 140 grain bullet.

Then their was the time I had to try out my very first .458 big bore in a Express gun. Boy it sure taught me a lesson that day, hitting a buck in the chest with a 500 grain bullet at less than 50 yards. Never be resting up against a tree and pull the trigger on that cannon ever again! The bullet hit the bucks spine and completely blew up the rear half of the bones and fragments and bone came out the back the size of a grapfruit. There was shreded bone driven into both hindquarters. Such power was awsome to wittness. Truly a waste of good venison........We live and hopefully learn! The year was 1964.

The last 10 years or so I have come to appreciate the finer things in life and one of those on my list is the 1/4 bore 25-06~!
Oh I do love em all I suppose, from the Triple Deuce to the 500 Nitro Express in the vault. They all have a purpose to serve but if I had to make a choice (Heaven Forbid!!!) of all those I have aquired over the years, I would not want to be without my 25-06 model 70 for the small stuff and the .416 mag model 70 for those things that bite back.

[Cossack]

I've never been able to decide on just one piece.
Have loaded 25/06. Great. Like a fool I sold that Plane Jane shooter for something prettier. Now use 260 (hand rifle) 7/08, 284 and 280, plus play with a bunch of 'cats and handguns (there's a range out back as well).
The 7/08 is a Kimber Montana. It weights 6.5 lbs trailside and is a dream to carry and shoot. My hunt load is a 140 Barnes TSX at 2950 fps. AWSOME. Accurate, lethal and easy on the shoulder.

But, I like what I see in the new CZ Model 3. An updated version of the pre '64 Win, Model 70, with better safety features and prettier wood. Available in the Win short mags (270, 7mm and 300) only, at this time....and made in the USA. There are half dozen different makes of rifles in my safe, the CZ I own is by far the best buy.

[Rocky Raab]

I believe I can say without fear of contradiction that a .270 is the absolute best rifle in Model 70's safe.

Disclaimer: That may not be true for anybody's esle's safe. Your mileage may vary. Not to be used while operating heavy machinery. Batteries not included.

And if that doesn't make everybody around the campfire smile and slap their leg, I quit.

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by Gatorbum
MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm new here and was reading back through some of your posts. I love you guys!!

Heh, heh, heh..........Closeknit, able to argue, agree to disagree...My kind of folks.

Just so you'll know, I'm mostly a bowhunter though my rifle shooting experience is extreme. My confidence gun is a semi-custom built Whitworth Mauser in 25/06. When it fires, something dies. Period.

At least you didn't say 300 Win Mag or a 270... ;)

Here is the perfect deer getter.
A 75cal Brown Bess Musket
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v161/xm15e2/Bess.jpg
Mild recoil. Minimal muzzle blast.
Good to 50 yards. What more could you want? :D

[model 70]

the .270 pulls ahead of the 25-06 when it comes to heavier bullet weights.

[fabsroman]

Skinny,

I'm the one that usually chimes in with the .300 Win Mag along with Andy L sometimes. We can always count on Model 70 for the .270, and we can count on Evan03 for the .25-06. Looks like Gatorbum might be another .25-06 fan to help Evan03 out, not the Evan03 needs much help.

Honestly, I have been trying to avoid this thread because this is such a subjective argument that there is no right or wrong answer. Kind of like arguing about which color is better, red or blue.

Personally, I would prefer a bazooka or a howizter where I live so that I could kill entire herds with a single shot. Artillery would be really nice too.

[Andy L]

No kiddin mod 70?? Mabye thats why 120gr is the heavy for the quarter bore.... :rolleyes: :D

But the 280 kicks the 270 bad with heavier bullets.....

And, the 300 Win, as Fabs said, is even better yet. Actually, I dont know why I have parked my 300 Win. I got it when I graduated high school in 1985. It has killed a train load of deer. With a factory 150gr Core Lokt, I have never had a rifle perform any better, or as good, as that rig. And the recoil thing is not all that bad either. Its not much worse than any 270, 280 or 30-06 I have ever shot, some more, but not noticable when shooting at game.

You know what, Im not too sure thats not the perfect all around big game rifle period. Deer, pronghorn, elk, moose, bear, it will do it all. And talk about bullet selection.

Thanks Fabs. I may bring the ole 300 out of the safe this year, sight it in and use it. Its been a while and thats a shame to semi-retire such a performer. Flat shootin and hard hittin.

Andy

[Hi Ball]

Andy L.......In the 60's I relied on the 222 for the small critters around the country side and soon set aside my .270 and 30-06 for a new love. A new Belgium Browning Safari 300 win mag for the big game animals of my future hunts, as that lastled for the next 20 or so years. I was never disappointed hunting with that rifle, once I learned it's true purpose and that was long range work for them most part on mule deer, elk, moose and bears alike.

Some time later in the early 80's, I got an itch and just had to scratch er some. So I stopped by the local gun store and brought home another model 70. Only this time it was a medium bore in the form of the .338 win mag. Now that is not to say that during those couple of decades, also picked up a bakers dozen or so of calibers up and down the spectrum. Including a half dozen wildcats as well.

Now just before the next century came onto the scene, I noticed a turning of events that lead me to believe, that the person who stated history has a way of repeating itself, certainly knew what he was talking about. I had already gone full circle in the line of rifle caliber's! I never gave much thought to such a happening as a young hunter. However, I can only say it has been a joyous experience to be quite frank. Shooting a 270, 25-06, 6.5, 30-06 or the Triple Deuce, still puts a smile on my face.

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

Just ran the diagnostics on my Mod 98, 7X57...it is YK3 compliant!

[Evan03]

mod70

the 257 cals do have an advantage over the .277s, id say the recoil being less is big advantage, atleast for us wussy guys like me.

i talk the 257s up real big, because i like them alot. but when you get down to the nitty gritty id tell you how ive only taken game with my 270win in 8 years if hunting, thats about 7 bucks and 1 bull elk. all were dropped with the little 270. i cant break away from the 277 cals and thats where my infatuation with the 270wsm came from.

[Evan03]

hi ball

from an earlier post i gatherd that your working with the 25wsm.

id like to hear alittle more on it. what rifle the barrel who did your smith work, how 100gr pills perform, or even 76-85 if youve tired them.

i have the 270wsm and would like to get tube reamed 25wsm, with its parrent case being the 270wsm, this would make reloading easier on me. id have the throat cut so that i can simply kneck down the bullets and stuff them in the chamber and have fun, im not much for relaoding and id hate to have to trimm cases after bumping 270wsm cases through the 25wsm die,

why did you go with the 25300wsm.

the rifle id like to build the 25wsm on is the #1 standerd, im sure some day i may try abd realy want to but for rigth now the 2506 is keepin me happy enough.

id love to hear more on the rifle.

Evan

[Hi Ball]

Evans-03.......Actually I was wanting a for long range shooting rifle for hunting. My 300 Ultra mag was causing me a neck problem shooting it from the bench (even with sandbags and recoil pad) when my itch started up again for something that wouldn't be a bore around the campfire, let me cut that recoil in half and still have lots of sip to penetrate big game animals like elk or mule deer at 400 yards.

I had read years ago of how the Swedes used the 6.5 x 55 for their harvesting of moose and deer. I just upped the anti with a little help from a case that holds a lot more powder. My accuracy at 800 yards with this rifle, shooting 140 grain Sierra bullets has been very good, considering I was shooting with an arm that had been just operated on for nerve damage. I can keep 5 shots within a 11 inch area at 800 yards!

I might could shrink that to 9 ir naybe 8 with more practice I suppose. I won't be shooting passed that 400 yard marker these days anyway most likely. If the gun were heavier (heaven forbid) It would do much better I am positive. If my eyes and are were perfect, I am sure the results would be trim a little more. However, so much is life during it's span understand. I also did not want a 12 pound bench gun for hunting. I have one of those in a 6mm Remington and it is no fun to carry all day. Both those wildcats have custom stainless fluted barrels. The 1/4 bore is 25 inches and the 6.5 is 26 inches in length. They both have custom made stocks as well, with Leupold 4 x 12 on the 1/4 bore and a Leupold 3 x 9 on the 6.5/270WSM.

I went on a somewhat quick elk hunt last year and took my 25-06 along for the ride. I did managed to kill a bull elk with the rifle, a model 70 pre-64. However, I long for something better suited as a big game hunting caliber in my hands next time out. My brother in law used to tell me years ago, you just don't need all that "smackin power" to kill elk and mule deer. He used a .243 Winchester in his day by the way!

I was actually after a 270WSM but never could get my hands on the rifle (model 70 of course) so I took the 300WSM instead that was on hand at the gun store. Now with this new acquisition, I proceeded to build a wildcat in short, the 25-06. I thought this would work out as my rifle, using 120 grain bullets. However, it just doesn't do what the other wildcat (6.5/270WSM) will as far as penetration goes into 50lb clay blocks. Nor does it have it's long range ballistic abilities and energy down range on big game animals like elk or moose.

The 6.5/270WSM is much better suited for big critters, using the 140 grain bullet with a SD or .287 and especially with a 160 grain bullet with it's SD of .328 (great for moose or elk in the dark timber) that is available today from Hornady. Shooting long range is also going to put it at the top of the list between the 2 wildcats.

I myself would never hunt elk again with the 25-06........It is just NOT big enough in my humble opinion and hunters must give up those shots passed 200 yards for sure. Now even though the wildcat 25/300WSM has more sip, I would also have to say, it is NO elk cartridge simple put. One should also use a premium bullet as well, so as to stay together after contact of animal tissue.

I reckon shooting those Barnes copper bullets in the 100 grain (if your barrel likes em) would be the ticket to all your antelope and mule deer needs out west. I myself still favor a bullet like the Nosler Partition in the 120 grain for penetration sake. It does the best of both worlds. SD at .260

However if you really want a wildcat to shoot long range and hunt big game, look no further than a 6.5/270WSM or use the 300WSM case as well, to get the job done in spades!

[CanWoodsman]

Add me to the 25.06 fan group. I don't think there are many deer I shot with one who would argue. On second thought they can't argue there dead.:D

[model 70]

yup, the .280 is available in heavier bullet weights than the .270 but why would you need anything over 150gr. or deer hunting?

[Evan03]

ffrom what ive found the 270win doesnt fling the 150s as well as it does the 130s and 140s. though ive still takn deer with the 150 noser partitions,

they all work its a crap shoot,


so whats acurate is very acurate and whats not as acurate is still acurate it enough to get the job done

Evan

[Andy L]

You dont need anything heavier than a 150 gr bullet. But, if your gonna use something that heavy, there are a host that will out perform the 270. If you wanna go smaller the 280 will out perform there.

For the umteenth time, there are many "perfect deer cartridges". None will kill any deader than the others. Some will out perform with different bullets.

Your 270 is a good rifle, but its not any better and in some cases not as good as other rifles. All have their strengths and all have their downfalls.

Andy

[model 70]

exactly and no other cartridge has the advantage over the .270win

[Andy L]

My gawd you can twist facts.....
:D

[fabsroman]

Here we go again.

There are plenty of cartridges that have an advantage over the .270 in one aspect or another. Heck, I am sure there is a .270 short magnum or something out there with a shorter action that the .270 Win. I am sure there are flatter shooting cartridges out there. I am sure there are cartridges out there with less recoil. Every cartridge has its advantages and disadvantages when compared to another cartridge, that is just how it goes. Almost like comparing cars and asking which one is the best one for the commute to work. At the end of the day, a lot is going to depend on your driving style and your personality. One brother of mine drives a PT Cruiser and an F-150, the other drives a Lexus GS400 and a GMC Yukon Denali. They own a house together, they both live in it, and they both work at the same place. So, which one made the better choice in his vehicle selections? I could keep going on and on about what I drive, what my sisters drive, where we work, our driving styles, etc., but I think you guys, Model 70 specifically, will get the point.

[Hawkeye6]

Well,Fabs, just what do you drive?

[Evan03]

this thread right here is what this site is all about, opions.

model70 loves the 270, it does everything hell ever need to do.

I love the 270, it can do and has done everything that ill ever need to do, short of big game. deer and elk arent big game. i have my 300win handy when i start to trip into that big game territory. ive got the 270wsm because i just had to have it, it looks cool and can out perform the 270win by just alittle all the way across the board with all bullet weights. 150s in the wsm case might be the way to go.

the 2506. the caliber has clung to me like glue on hot rubber and that will never change. in my opion the 257 calibers make some of the best deer only calibers out there. mix larger game in there and theyl work there to but there are others like the 270win 270wsm 280 7mm 3006 300win and on and on that will outperfrom the 25 cent bullets on larger game..

same holds true to the 277 calibers, there are calibers smaller and larger that have an advantage over them. maybe your plinkn away at rock chucks tipped 20 or so over but you havent seen a single hit due to the recoil. you migh then be thinking the 257 and smaller calibers would be kinda fun for varmiting, these have the advantage over the 277s in this department.

you might be hunter that hunts coyotes and rock chucks on acasion in the big game off season. then prong horn sets of the big game season. and rolls into deer season where your hunting muleys in idahos high country where shots can range from 20-600yds of your capable of shooting that far. the 270win can handle the longer shots. you also maybe hunt spring bear. the 277 is pretty well perfect here to. elk then come into the picture at the end of the big game season. the 277s are also very capable here to. and your shooting mainly this one rifle you know it very well and have found it strenghts and weaknesses. you know what you can and cant do with it. so to me the 277 is bout perfect for most every all around hunter in idaho.

but theres exseptions to the rull. what if you tend to hunt elk more than you do deer, maybe moose to. your planning that alaska hunt. i know someday ill more then likly end up packn a few rifles to alaska. i also know that id be hunting more than one type of game. and im pretty positive id take atleast two rifles. probly one of my 277 calibers and whatever 30cal i have at the time. i wouldnt ever go to alaska under gunned or even have any question about being under gunned. thats why the 2 calibers would come with me.

sp pretty much the 277s rull the roost right up untill you realize or need something that might be alittle better and have an edge over the smaller bullet. it doesnt mean the 270 is capable it just means there something atleast alittle better suited to the job.

Evan

[model 70]

very well put. i mean, after all, we're dicussing the best DEER hunting round here.

[Evan03]

100gr bullet. 3400 fps no recoil very acurate, good glass. close or long range. this is my opion of the perfect deer only rifle.

[Andy L]

Hey, Evan just described a 25-06!

[Evan03]

:) :D :cool: ;)

[model 70]

make it a 130gr. bullet at around 3k and you're on the right track.

[fabsroman]

Hawkeye,

I drive a 1998 Ford Taurus, a 2003 Ford F-350 Super Crew with the Powerstroke diesel, and a 1989 Ford Mustang. My brothers also have 1989 Mustangs, but they just bought theirs and they need a lot of work. I bought my Mustang brand new when I was 17 and I hardly drive it anymore.

[Andy L]

Nah, Evan is right. That 130 gr bullet at a pedestrian speed like that, hell, that aint good for nothin, now that its all laid out technical like. 3000 fps was pretty fast 25 years ago. With todays technology and inventions, its outlived its time....


:D

Andy

[hofts]

.177 cal pellet gun.......795 fps. must be an eye shot.

come on now boys, go shoot your deer and put this one to rest.!!
:D :D :D :D

we all know what works, and what works best.
our own.

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Hawkeye,

I drive a 1998 Ford Taurus, a 2003 Ford F-350 Super Crew with the Powerstroke diesel, and a 1989 Ford Mustang. My brothers also have 1989 Mustangs, but they just bought theirs and they need a lot of work. I bought my Mustang brand new when I was 17 and I hardly drive it anymore.

Fabs, maybe I could introduce you all to the GM line of 4x4's... ;) :D

[model 70]

so faster is ALWAYS better with ANY weight bullet, no matter how heavily or lightly constructed it is? Hmmm...interesting...

[Hi Ball]

Model 70.........The velocity issue with bullets going super super sonic speeds has been addressed several times by the professional hunters around the world.

The conclusion when hunting DG game was that bullets going 2400fps penetrated and stayed together far better than those that were shot faster or slower. Just food for thought gentlemen!;)

Now if yall want to talk pullin trucks, thats fine and Dandy with this Ole Boy, ya hear. Cause I got a retired 78 Chevy in the back with a bored out 460 Ford sittin in the cradle that can flat out be classified as a stump puller or pullin truck on the circuit by golly.
I figure she churns out right near 850 hp's give or take a nickel's worth. Trucks name was "BAD ATTITUDE" my buddy's was called "WILD THING":D :D :D :cool:

[model 70]

Thank you for the info. I was being sarcastic though.

[Evan03]

you could hand me a rifle from 223-300win and id find a way to take deer with it.

some calibers may limit my shots to being at close range, id have to let some go. otheres i would have more opurtunitys at game when its at funny angles and further away.

calibers in the mid to upper end give the best results. arent realy to over kill and produce very good results.

so flip a quarter be marked at birth whatever the cause may be, find something that works with you and for and get to know the rifle make it a part of you. no matter what that caliber ends up being itl in the end wind up being the perfect rig for you. regardless of bullet size and speed.

the 270win clung to m at birth, literlay i didnt have any choice. dad got the rifle the year i was born. i received the rifle brand new in the box some 10 years later. it has been with me ever since and were inseperable.,

[Andy L]

Speed kills. More shock and terminal damage.

[Evan03]

you ever watch that movie, "Three Kings" i think thats what its called. it shows the internals of a human bodas bullet penetrates it.

it shows the terminal shock very well. as the bullet impacts and penetrates it litleraly turns the blood flow in veins backwords. and sends blood through tissue. kinda like atom bomb were you see the shock waves leaving the bomb in all directions, youd just have to see it know what im talking about.

[Andy L]

Ive seen it.

Unless your shootin somethin big that chargin ya, I would rather have the speed any day over lumbering penetration. Especailly on deer size game and varmints.

If you subscribed to the 2400fps thing, I guess the 30-30 Win would be the ultimate deer rifle.

Yipppeeee, go 30-30. :D

Andy

[Hawkeye6]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Hawkeye,

I drive a 1998 Ford Taurus, a 2003 Ford F-350 Super Crew with the Powerstroke diesel, and a 1989 Ford Mustang. My brothers also have 1989 Mustangs, but they just bought theirs and they need a lot of work. I bought my Mustang brand new when I was 17 and I hardly drive it anymore.

I'll bet that F-350 makes a big impression pullin up to the Courthouse, don't it!

[Evan03]

fabs an 89 stang eh.

ive got an 83 stang, 89 chevy truck. and thats about it.

lets hear alitle more on the stang.

[fabsroman]

Evan,

There isn't much to post about the stang. I've changed every single piece of the suspension. It has Koni struts and shocks, Moroso sway bars, camber/caster plates, SVT lowering springs with an increased poundage on them, polyurethane bushings everywhere except the rear upper control arms which have aluminum bushings, new A-arms, and rear lower and upper control arms, Steeda 8x17 inch rims with Yokohama 225/40's up front and Bridgestone Potenza RE71's on the rear in 255/40's, and it has a little exhaust work and air intake work done to it. I haven't taken it to the track yet in the 15+ years that I have owned it. Oh yeah, it has a smidge over 33,000 miles on it.

I posted the pic before I read everybody else's replies. I cannot believe how this thread has taken off over today.

Skinny,

I think I will pass on the GM 4x4's. A Ford has lasted both my dad and my brother and they are both horrible on cars and trucks.

Hawkeye,

I did take the section 179 deduction on the truck in 2003 and have used it to meet with several of my clients, but I have yet to take it to the courthouse. I don't even think it would fit under the parking garage. At the beginning of the year, I met with a new client that owns a drywall company and he was surprised to see me pulling up in the F-350, not because he didn't think I should have it, but because it was just like his. He kind of knows my background (i.e., dad and uncle in construction), so he wasn't surprised by it.

Here is a pic of the stang:

[Andy L]

Lets keep this one goin.....

Ill bet we can outdo the "Manbeef" thread.....
:D

[model 70]

I see your point when it comes to speed but does it really hold true? I mean, what would happen if you were to push a 100gr nosler ballistic tip at around 3500 fps and hit bone? Now wouldn't a 130 or 140gr bullet at around 3000 fps be a more versatile choice?

[Andy L]

I did just that exact thing on a deer two years ago with that bullet at approx that speed, maybe a tad faster, at 200 yards.

Broke the shoulder, of course, demolished the lungs, heart and some other internal organs, and broke the shoulder on the other side.

130gr bullet travelling slower may have held together better, but I dont think that deer would have been any deader. Could be wrong?? :confused: :D

Andy

[Evan03]

i was gona send fabs personnel message but ill keep it here.

im into the stangs to,



fabs

my 83 is in building stage right now. as wee speak ive got quater windows, windsheild. steeday lower control arms (adjustable) areo nose??????? but lookin for 85-86 nose. these are just parts i have that are waiting to go on.

what i still need are rear shocks, probly go QA1, along with theyr coilovers in the front. 150lb springs to go with the future mods. tremec tranny(keep dreamn) hood cant decide on the hood, partly due to not decideing on the front end..

it had centerline wheels on it dont even know the size or anything but id like cobras or like yours, but in 17x7(8) in the front and 17x10(9) in the rear i want atleast some sidewall.

so far i rebuilt the 4 speed tranny and put a stock clutch in it. and freshn up the brakes.

the car is a t-top wich sets it off from other fox stangs, its kinda become my fun car specialy with summer here.

im planning for heads intake and cam.:D :D :D :D

what does yours have for motor mods

Evan

[Evan03]

thats actualy my deer load and varmit load to boot.

100gr nsler balistic tipp. cant remember how fast exackly but 3500fps sounds just about right.

i also loaded 100gr nolser partitions but they didnt shoot near as well so i gave up on them and went with what was the most acurate.

i used to load 85gr nolser bts and 75gr vmaxes but i kinda quit because the 100grs shoot very well so i figured why not use them for everything.

ive taken a few coyotes and badgers with the 100gr nosler bt and like the results. bullet didnt blow them apart at close or long range. so i slowly became confident with the load as my deer and varmit load.

i still will load some 75gr vmaxes to get the cool redmist effect from smaller critters, i used up all my 85 bts and wont be getting anymore, though this bullet coul also be made into screamer pushn the 3700fps mark. it had the same effect on varmits.

actualy i might change my mind and work with the 85gr bullet some more to see what i can cook up in fast acurate load if possible. might be my new antelop load you just talked me into


hmmmmm but whatif my 270wsm can push the 130gr nosler balistic tipp close to 3500, right now im loading the 140gr nosler bt to to a moderate 3100. hmmmmm did i decide on the nolser balistic tipp as my deer load, when did that happen.

acuracy draws me to the bullet more than bullet desing does. i doubt ill load 130sww in it when its already pushn 140s plenty fast, and could go faster. but right now were sitn good where were at, drivin the 140 to 3100 acuratly, and that didnt come realy easy, i tried more than a few difrent powder charges to find the acurate load.

i have pretty much came to nosler balistic tipps as my deer load. shot a coyote with the 140gr bt at bout 300yds with the 270wsm and bullet didnt exit. ive taken alot of varmits with nosler bts and havent seen them get very devestateiing. i even took a few rock chucks with the 140gr plastic tipped slug with little mess.

ive shot yotes with 55gr vmaxes out of the 220swift that left a football sized hole at that range on acasion, the same bullet at distance sometimes wouldnt exit

all my calibers 277 and smaller will shoot balsitic tipps because ive found that they are just acurate and are produceing results i like to see. the 22s shoot vmaxes and the 25 and 270s shoot nolser.

the 300win will get alittle difrent treatment and be fed dieat of tough bullets. im gona start my schooling in the 300win caliber with 168gr barnes tripple shocks. if i find a load fairly quick i might settle righ there?

but ill also try the same bullet thats weighs more, 180 or 200grs.



if im not happy with tripple shocks ill go to partitions.

after my heavy critter getter loads are good to go ill try some 165gr nolser bts, just because i can and might try the load on some varmits.

those are the plans as of now

Evan

[model 70]

fair enough but which of the two choices i posted would be more of a RELIABLE deer hutning round?

[Hi Ball]

ANDY L..........Well, I reckon you took the words right out of my mouth sir! Yep, that old lever gun I would be willing to bet my truck, has taken more deer in the USA & Canada than any caliber that is or was in existence today. Ummmmm sure makes a fellow wonder why all the need for big mags and tons or smack down energy ya think.:)

Now on the other side of the spectrum is the little caliber called the .243 Winchester, that many seem to believe is NOT a very good thing to have in hand for harvesting whitetail deer. Most that say that, I would give 6 to 1 odds ain't never hunted with one for deer or shot a deer. Tarnations, I got a brother in law who used to kill elk with one, along with mule deer don't cha know. ;)

Truth to the matter is this Andy L, darn near any caliber today from the .243 Winny on up the scale is a good deer gun. It never has been the calibers fault of not bringing the venison home to the freezer. Hunters who can't shoot or don't know squat for bullet selection is my theory of their demise in the woods.

NO my wood haulin truck ain't fer sale either!

[Andy L]

HI Ball,
Your on the money. There are many perfect deer rifles out there. I have killed several with a 243. My 10 year old has killed 4 with 4 shots and you cant convince him its not perfect. :)

Ive killed several with a 30-30 too. That was my first gun and killed my first two deer on the same morning with it, when I was 11. You couldnt have convinced me then that the 30-30 wasnt the berries for deer.

Im just messin around on this thread. Some people get so worked up about certain things, its all in good fun. :cool:

Good to check in for a chuckle a time or two a day.

Andy

[Skinny Shooter]

Originally posted by Andy L
Lets keep this one goin.....

Ill bet we can outdo the "Manbeef" thread.....
:D

The 220 Swift is just a barrel burner and not as good as the 22-250...

Andy, is that good enough? ;)

[Andy L]

I agree Skinny!! But, there is really no need for a 22-250. They are really over rated......

They cant do anything that a 223 or 22-243 could accomplish better.....

:D

Andy

[Slim-Zippy]

Gentlemen,

Y'all have it all wrong about the best deer rifle! The best deer rifle is defitely the 7mm Remington magnum. How could you even think of any thing else but the 7mm mag.

The 220 Swift got robbed when the rumor came out that it burned out barels. It's still the King of 22 caliber rifles.

I have been in love with Mustangs ever since I saw the movie Bullit with Steve Mcqueen as a teenager. I almost bought a cobra last year, but the seller backed out of the deal.

John

[Evan03]

did we just mention 22 cals in perfect deer rifle thread hmmmm.

you know ive nothing but good from folks that have taken deer with the 220 swift. same with the 22/250, ive even talked to a few that have used the 223 and 22lr.

but i think the 223 -220 22cals with the right bullet can make doable deer rigs


when you hunt with deer calls 243 and up all your life then all the sudden you have this urge to start takeing deer with the 22/250.

i think this is the first step into boredome and the ist step to going to a bow and string. id say the 22 cals are just as caple as bow and arrow when used within theyre limits.

at that note id like to let all know that i finaly broke down bought box of 224 cal 53 grain tripple shocks, hmmmmm wha the heck are those for.

i wouldnt say im bored i just want to try everything.


good a mate

Evan

[Andy L]

Im going to attempt to kill deer this year with my 17Rem with a 25gr Berger MEF. Only if I can get it to stand long enough for an eye shot, everything should work as planned. Then, it will be known as another perfect deer rifle.

(Before I get flamed all to kingdom come, this was only a joke. I would never risk wounding a deer with a bullet not suited for taking a deer quickly and cleanly or, a 270.....)
:D

Andy

[Evan03]

actualy

i bet a vld in any weight you want would cleany take any western or north american bigame

[fabsroman]

Now we are picking on the 220 Swift and my feelings are hurt because I own one. When is this ever gonna end. LOL

[Andy L]

Cant help ya on the Mustangs Fabs, but if they go to pickin on Superdutys with Powerstrokes, I got your back. Everyone knows you cant beat em....
:D

I like the 220 Swift. The 22-250 is kinda like the 270. Its ok if you can only own one rifle. Anyone knows that the 22-250 is outdone by the 223 and 220 on respective ends of the bullet weights, just as the 270 is outdone by the 25-06 and the 280 or virtually any 30 cal on the other end......
;) :)

Andy

[Andy L]

See what you have done Gatorbum!!!
:D

I love it.

[Evan03]

i think the 22/250 and 220 are so close that there twins, therey closer in perfromance and balistics than the 280 and 270

[Jack]

You all know that the 30-30 is totally obsolette, a product of the 19th century, and we should all quit using such an antique;)

[fabsroman]

Quite honestly, I am waiting for the arrival of the laser blaster like they have in Star Wars. That way, I can shoot my deer and have it cooked at the same time. That will really cut down on the time factor.

[model 70]

This thread is starting to lose some of it's validity.

Ok, AndyL, you don't care much for the .270win but why can't I? I deem it the perfect deer round. If you don't agree then that's fine but your round-about insluts are getting somewhat tiresome.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

Well actually the hot .22 cals are valid deer rifle/cartridges, In Ireland thay Baned and confiscated all sporting rifles then grudgingly let them have rifels no larger than .22"/5.6mm so all their hunting was done with these, the king was not the Swift as you may have thought but the 5.6x57mm which used a 70 grn bullet. Red and Sika stags were taken well with single shots in fact so good did it perform that some shooters retained their 5.6mm's when the estrictions were lifted slightly to all calibres up to and including the 0.270.

[Dom]

Leave the 22 cf's to shoot what they were made for, varmints, period. Why not see how low one can go and try it with a bb or pellet gun? Deer hunting requires a caliber capable of cleanly harvesing the animal, and I prefer to do it with the least amount of meat damage. I've seen what happens when you blast a light projectile at super speed thru an animal. Does it kill? If it don't blow up and makes it in the boiler room sure, and quickly at that, but why waste all that good tasting venison? A less than ideal shot wounds and is not good or pretty.

For a lot of young or newer hunters that read these boards, we do no favors pulling the chain on the .22's for deer rifles. Not that it can't be done, and in some states it's even legal, but I can't recommend them. Hunting deserves respect for the animals we harvest.

Lots of good deer calibers out there starting on the low end at .243 -- and you'll never please all the people all the time, but the .270 is a super deer rifle for a whole lot of folks, me included. But that's not to say that either the 25- or 30-'06 or 7 mil can't be just as good for a great many hunters.

Model70, I'm with ya on backing the .270 as a great deer caliber, maybe even perfect, JMHO, Lemme go get my flak vest and kevlar outta the closet, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[Andy L]

Just funnin 70..... Sheeesh.

I done said probably between this thread and the first one that you were correct, at least as far as the 270 being ONE of the perfect ones. The rest is all just good fun. Did you miss the part about being a joke and going for the Manbeef record??

I thought this thread lost validity way before it started. Back on the last thread. I was just having some fun and truely thought everyone else was too.

If its that personal to ya, Ill quit. Hope I didnt hurt anyones feelings. Just having a good time.

Just one question Model 70. Is your dad O'Connor or something? Never seen anyone defend a round like that. (Part of the reason it was fun, I thought you were jokin too)

CYA
Andy

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I think I was the one that posted about the manbeef thread and I think there was no validity for this thread based upon the first post. Gatorbum pretty much stated that it is a crap shoot as far as picking the "perfect" deer cartridge and I pretty much agree. I think there are a wide number of "perfect" deer cartridges, but what is perfect to one man is not perfect to the other. Hence, my analogy to cars and trucks.

Here is another analogy. What is the "perfect" woman/man. I am willing to bet that each of us would have a different description of the perfect mate, and that is because we all probably have different tastes. Some of us will like brunettes, others blonds, and still others redheads. Why is that? Personal taste, and I think that also applies to the "perfect" deer cartridge. Obviously, there are certain people and cartridges that don't even come close to being perfect, but I am sure you get my drift.

[Rocky Raab]

I finally found the perfect girl
I couldn't ask for more.
She's deaf and dumb,
And oversexed,
And owns a liquor store.


(Yes all, this whole thread is for fun. Like the manbeef one. So stick your tongue firmly into your cheek and type away!)

Not bad for a newbie, Gatorbum! You created a classic right outta the gate!

[Andy L]

Kinda what I thought Rocky, Gatorbum is gonna fit right in with this bunch of knuckleheads.
:D

Andy

Just remember, this is the internet. Its supposed to be fun. Let it be just that. You can find good info, but if a thread starts out being tounge in cheek, take it for what its worth.....

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

Oh.......... Oh deary me, Dom I take it that all the shooters and hunters In Ireland should have packed up because they were only allowed .22 rifles then ?

Here in the UK the .22 rifles are not legal in England & Wales for Deer at the moment that is. here is a move to make them legal for Roe, Muntjac and Chinese Water Deer. In Scotland they are legal for Roe Deer providing they use a 50 Grn Minimum bullet at 2450 fps or over producing 1100 ftlbs of muzzle energy.

Now personaly the smallest calibre centrefire I have is 6.5mm to which there is NO question about it's suitablity for Deer:D Even the 6.5x54MS which is the smallest I have is ample enough for all Deer, as has been proven over many decades since it's introduction. Heck is was even used by artic explorers for meat and protection from Polar Bears. Gibbs of bristol did a hotted up version known as the .256 Gibbs Magnum:)

[model 70]

nope, my old man ain't o'conner.

[fabsroman]

Gatorbum started a classic and I think we scared him off. He has been stuck on 12 posts for days now. I guess he might have taken this thread a little too seriously too.

[Evan03]

Dom.

22s have therye place and we hunters keep lookin for it all over in the hunting scene. when we start to stray and think maybe just maybe.its guys like you that reinforce an infasize to the general public that there are much better calibers out there to take deer sized game with. us other guys well never be helped. :rolleyes:


as far as model70, i think hes uptight(uptight might be the wrong word, straight to point maybe) or im just open minded to be able to have other calibers to have fun and play around with. i was givin the 270win as my first rifle, if i wasnt the person i am i might have never had any exsperince in other calibers. i like to play and i do it alot. ive had more varmit rifles then i needed over the years, but ive yet to get rif of any deer capable rigs, dont know what that has to do with any thing.

and as far as ribn him alittle. i say we should keep at it. sooner or later were gona see his sence of humor come rolling out. he is right on, the 270win is a perfect deer rifle. long range short range it can do it all, recoil is noticable but mild. it can take elk with good a blet and well placed shot. and you can turn around and shoot rock chucks and yotes with it. heck id plug a moose with mine if its all i had.. the 270 is perfect and has been for a very long time. theyre isnt anyone here in the us that would be lacking in most situations with a rifle in this caliber..

anyways we now have new knickname for model 70 yeah you guessed it. ill call him o'conner any chance i get.

Evan

[model 70]

wow, you're just so dang funny.:rolleyes:

[Dom]

Brithunter, I'm not sure I understand your wording, so I'll just ramble on a little here about my thoughts.

You can't classify the Roe or Muntjac in the same category as the North American Whitetail which is what is talked about in this thread -- and that's I'd bet why the triple duece or other cf 22s are legal for them, they are a lot smaller animal. I've got no argument with those deer. But, they ain't got the oomph or maybe for lack of a better word, power (jewels) to be classified to take Red deer legally and ethically, which is more in line with whitetail and muley sizes, especially in the harsher climates.

I don't know why the hunters in Ireland would have to pack up, guess I don't understand that question.

My point is why would someone recommend emphatically hunting animals with marginal weapons? You can't lump all hunters into one category knowing the capabilities and performance, not to mention shooting ability. Take a PH in Africa who hunts for a living. What he can and can't do with different calibers he knows. Given his ability, he could take umpteen elephants or lions with the hornet, but I'd bet my bottom line he's not going to recommend to his clients to bring their pet .22cf. Granted, that's a bit exagerated, but my point is 22cf's aren't intended for the average hunter to shoot NA Deer with, and for good reason.

If 22s are legal weapons where someone hunts, more power to 'em, it's just that I can't trump em up as the miracle perfect deer caliber. Actually, the perfect deer caliber is somewhat of a mythical thing, because as we all know, what's perfect to one is not perfect to the next, kinda like women ;-)

[Andy L]

In Missouri, you can use any centerfire cartridge for deer. Used to be 224 with at least 60gr bullet.

I do know of a fellar that killed one with a 17 Rem, but I wouldnt try it. Heck, I know of alot of illegal spotlite deer that have fallen to a 22lr and 22 mag, for that matter.

O'Co, I mean, Model 70, :D , why dont you lighten up a bit. If you hadnt noticed, you got respect of everyone here that I have seen. This is all good fun. I really dont know how you take this so serious.

Have a little fun. ;)

Andy

[model 70]

where do you see the respect?

[Hi Ball]

I once had a Ponch! Better known as a GTO (called the Green Machine) that was very quick on the track! I remember at Bristol Tenn. when she blew a rearend just before the finish line and still won. It had a 421 cu block punched out .60 over, Isky cam, crane heads, 2 x 2 Muncie 4 speed......running 2 x 4 Carbs on top a Wieland manifold.....pushing exhaust through a set of Jardine headers.

Now just so you know, super high velocity does not kill animals understand. It is that little lead and metal projectile called a bullet, that does the killing. Hydrostatic shock is great on paper but it doesn't penetrate vitals and do the killing, other wise a solid bullet would Not do it's job either!

[fabsroman]

Model 70,

I think almost everybody in this thread, including me, respects your opinion on the .270 Win and we also respect the cartridge itself. Heck, I own a Remington 700 in .270. Now, it isn't my favorite gun, but I wouldn't hesitate to use it on deer. Anyway, I hope your feelings aren't being hurt by the ribbing on here about the .270 Win. Just a bunch of opinions and a lot more joking.

[hofts]

why was the baby strawberry crying??



his mother got caught in a jam!


:D :p

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

Now Dom I pointed out that in Ireland due to changes in the Law there all the hunters had left was .22 cenrefire rifles, so they had to make do with what they were allowed. In Ireland the only Deer are Red Deer and Sika, possibly some Fallow but I am not sure on them:rolleyes: both Sika and Red are as large if not larger than the normal American Whitetail, Sika are especially know for hanging onto life.

I did not personally reccomend the .22's for Deer I only stated what was being used and what was required by law, heck I don't even own a .22 centrefire rifle. Even the Irish have come about to allowing rifles up to and including the 270 to be used now:p . I pointed this out as it was stated that the .22 was not capable of cleanly killing large Deer which is plainly not the case providing the shot is correctly placed. Hell even a poorly placed shot with the 300 WM will not drop a deer on the spot and it's likely to die a slow lingering death!

[quote]
You can't classify the Roe or Muntjac in the same category as the North American Whitetail which is what is talked about in this thread -- and that's I'd bet why the triple duece or other cf 22s are legal for them, they are a lot smaller animal. I've got no argument with those deer. But, they ain't got the oomph or maybe for lack of a better word, power (jewels) to be classified to take Red deer legally and ethically, which is more in line with whitetail and muley sizes, especially in the harsher climates.[quote]

Whilst Muntjac may be small there are a lot tougher than some larger Deer species, the Gamekeeper I shoot with witnessed one shot with a 30-06 using factory cartridges and the bullet which entered the proper spot just behind the foreleg did not exit:eek: but skidded around the ribcage like a mincer, leaving a awful mess inside.:rolleyes: An extreme case but it did happen, the deer didn't go very far either with it's heart & lungs all chewed up:confused:



Oh I am sorry I did not know that ONLY Whitetail was to be discussed :rolleyes , the forum is "rifles" and the thread says:-

"Perfect" deer caliber/rifle...lol......

Nowhere did I see WHITETAIL calibre/rifle but it says Deer and Muntjac, Red, Roe and Sika are all species of Deer: :p

[fabsroman]

We have Sika deer here in southern Maryland and I can tell you that they are a lot smaller than a Whitetail. For those deer, I think I could use my .220 Swift with a Barnes X bullet and not have a problem on them. I am assuming that the Sika deer here are the same as the ones in Ireland, but I could be wrong since you state that they are the same size as a Whitetail.

Now this thread is getting serious with the discussion of .22's and the size of deer.

We just might beat the Manbeef thread here since we have the laugh factor, the .270 factor, the .22 factor, and deer size factor. All the best topics of discussion rolled into one thread.

[hofts]

the 35 whelen of course. pick 200, 225, or 250 gr and you have a dead animal out to 320 yards. easy on the meat too.

ps. only use if you like your deer to drop in its tracks!
:D ;) ;)

[model 70]

how's the recoil on that thing?;)

[Brithunter]

Hi fabsroman,

Sika stags go about 150 lbs in weight whch is smaller than Northern whitetails but larger than Southern ones so I understand. Now I don't understand what is so funny though.:rolleyes: some one a comment based on poor facts and logic so I thought it needed correcting;) . Oh I think you might find that there is more than one strain of Sika like there is more than one strain of Red Deer and Wapiti's.

I might get the chance of a Sika this September in Scotland, the hunt is for red Stags but there are a dew Sika in the area and they are game as well so who knows:p ;)

[denton]

Been doing some research on the 7x57. It's amazing how close it is to the 270 in some respects.

As nearly as I can figure out from known numbers, a 7x57, loaded to full modern pressures, will push a .284" 140 grain bullet to 2900 fps.

The SAAMI spec for a 270, loaded with a .277", 140 grain bullet is 2950 fps.

There's just .008" difference in diameter, and 50 fps difference in MV. Of course, as bullet weight goes up, I would expect the difference between the two to widen some, because the 270 has more case capacity. But, all in all, these are two very similar cartridges.

So why is it the 270 "caught on", while the 7x57 didn't?

[hofts]

it seems that the 7mm-08 is really catching on in the last several years and i have read quite a few articles that say ballistically it is quite similar to the 7x57, just slightly smaller. who knows why one catches on and another very similar does not. i suppose mostly due to the firearm makers and their decisions.

[Evan03]

as big as white tail, heck them things are tiny, id feel over gunned chasen whitetails around with my 22/250, hmmmmmm

seriously though ive traveld this country east coast to west coast and there is a very big size varition from reagion to region ot state to state or whatever youd call it.

ive seen little deer not much bigger than coyotes and deer that would be about like our muledeer.

a big muledeer and the 22/250 have no busness classing heads. the deer would have the advantage at the atart but the 250 would win slowly as the deer died a slow death.

when big deer are in the sites id much rather have any caliber but the 250.

but in other states id go hunting with the 250 likeit was my bread n butter. why shoot something that recoils when the game is small.

here in idaho im just mingling with the idea of useing the 250 on deer. well have to see what load development says to my idea. if the bullets dont shoot then the 250 will be out of the running. and O'cconer will agree with me when i go back to shootin 277 slugs at big game. ;)

Evan

[fabsroman]

Brithunter,

The laugh factor goes to the thread in its entirety. Gatorbum started this thread for a laugh and some of us have been going on the laugh factor ever since.

If you read my previous post, I stated that it is starting to get serious in here with the discussion of .22's and the size of deer. Nothing to laugh about with those subjects.

[Evan03]

weve pretty much decided that we cant decide on one all around caliber. thanks goodness. its cool to be alittle difrent and have choices, and theres alot that walk right into being perfect deer calibers. now that weve got that figured out lets look at the perfect rifle desing.

something that you can pack around fairly easy isnt to light and has long range appeal.

the perfect all around rifle in my opion weighs in bout 8lbs unscopes, has 24" medium taper barrel. sporter stock in either walnut or laminted, heck even a good synthetic will work for me.

thats the perfect rig in my opion, the best of all worlds

[hofts]

evan, id agree almost. to me the rifle should weigh no more than 8 lbs, fully scoped and rigged, with a very nice synthetic stock, such as hs precision, etc. like the 24 inch sporter for most calibers.

im only 35, but anymore i am really into light weight.
sold my 9-10 pounders years ago and couldn't be happier.

[Evan03]

my 300win weighs 8.25 then topped with 3-9 loe. recoil is very managable even for, me.

my 2506 is 8.5lbs alittle heavier only because of the smaller bore. recoil is next to nothing, its topped with a 4.5-14x40 leo. it packs the most punch but dosnt knock you around.

a 3006 that weighs 7lbs topped with 3-9 glass kicks more than my 300win set up the same.

[Andy L]

Id take a 12lb 300 Win over a 5lb 270 any day of the week, I can tell ya that much. :D

Looked like it was slowin down, if were gonna compete with Manbeef, we gotta keep it rollin.....

Andy

[Gatorbum]

I would only carry a rifle maxed out at 8#'s with recoil I could COMFORTABLY handle at that weight, firing a bullet in the 100-150 gr. weight at around the 3000fps figure. A walking around gun anyway. If you hunt by someone dropping you off right at your condo stand, weight certainly would not be part of the puzzle.

As a side note, I loaded some old 60 gr. Hornady spire points in my 25/06 to a chronographed 4000+fps. Unbelievable what they did to an armadillo. We actually had to back the load down at one point as the bullets were coming apart in flight!

Take care

Tony

[Evan03]

were that acurate.

a 75gr bullet outa the 2506 can make it to 22/250 speeds but anymore is realy pushn it.

i was realy into shooting 75 vmaxes through mine. they are acurate and produce lots of red mist :D you should see some of the crows i shot. nothin but net ughhh i mean feathers.

Evan

[Andy L]

75gr VMax outta my 25-06AI with 59.5gr of 4831 is the most devistating red mist round I have ever fired. It blows the hell outta anything it hits. Unreal.

Andy

[Evan03]

ball park guestimate how fast that is. i bet 3900 wouldnt be to far out of reach then a slight stretch getn to 4000. i think i was getn 3700 and am guessing the ckley is 200fps faster than the standerd case.


i didnt you had a blowed out case..

what kinda acuracy are you getn while fire forming??

Evan

[Andy L]

Never chronoed it.

The smith that built it, has built many, says its right at the 4000 mark, just under.

However, I was corrected on here by some of the tech guys when I made that proclaimation. So, I dont know for sure. Its fast enough. I can attest to that. ;)

Actually, it shoots great when fire forming. Cant tell alot of difference. Another thing I like is I can shoot the 75gr VMax and the 100gr Partition, and it doesnt change the 0 enough to mess with. Right there.

Andy

[Hi Ball]

ANDY L.......Now if numbers were to mean anything towards what caliber wins hands down for the harvesting of whitetail deer, I am affraid your 30-30 takes home the trophy.:eek: :rolleyes:

[Andy L]

HiBall, Id say you got that right. 30-30 or the 22 rimfire for the spotlighters....

Where you from? You close to the Lake Ozarks??

Andy

[Evan03]

17hmr or 17hm2 for the spot lighters 22 rimfires are old school

[8X56MS]

Gatorbum,

It's nice to see another Fla boy in here.

Sorry I caught the thread so late, but I have to say your handle, coupled with living in Tally, sure must make for some interesting times there. I did UF, and got out in the mid sixties.

Oh, to keep it gun related, I favor the .250/300 Savage AI and the 7 x 57 Mauser AI as premier deer cartridges. :)

[rem 700]

Well I sure wouldn't recommend a 22 caliber for deer, their small lightweight bullets don't expand to make what I'd call a devastating wound channel. I myself am a fan of the ought six cartridges. 25-06 and 30-06 are about as good as they get. The 25 is good for whitetail especially, but a 30-06 would be my choice for mulies. The 25-06 has the power to take deer(especially whitetail) down beyond 400 yards without a problem at all, but when it comes to long range open landscape mule deer hunting, the 30-06 shoots a heavier bullet with an outstanding flat trajectory to the range you might be encountering on the plains.

[fabsroman]

Here we go again.

I must say that I was surprised to see that this thread has 131 replies to it.

However, I don't think I have seen Gatorbum around lately, which sucks because he had some medical issues a little while ago.

[Rapier]

Sounds like spies to me or at least copperheads, a gator from Miami and a gator from Tallahassee, we are surrounded.....

I had to say that in defense of my investment: I know I bought two buildings at FSU by the time the boy left Bowdenville. :D

Oh, back to deer guns and such:

What no 6.5 fans here?

Gatorbum, you might try the Sierra 87 gr in the 256 with 14 grains of H-4227 as a max load. That was my 10 inch TC load for a couple of years shooting steel critters. Back er down and come up. By the by, if you need brass, let me know, I think I have a couple hundred (no barrel anymore) and the price is right. PM me your name and address and I will put a care package in USPS for you. I have found that 4227 in a small capacity case with heavy bullets, generally gives the best results.

As to the best deer rifle, gotta be the one I walk out the door with in the morning. But I would say that the best all round rifle for the SE would be the 260. It is just a great all round cartridge.

But I do like the new revised modern 30-06 it is never going to die. New powders, new bullets and you have a magnum performer. A man could do a lot worse than a good old 06.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

After reading all of the replies I gotta change my vote. The best deer rifle is whichever one is in my grubby little hands when that bugger steps outa the brush!

:D

GoodOlBoy

[model 70]

*.270win, 130gr. bullet

[JackRabbit]

gotta agree with model 70.Its in my opinion 270 130gr.;)

[rem 700]

All hail the mighty ought six cartridges

[Evan03]

yes i cahnge my vote to, cant remember what i voted for to many rifles on hadn to limit myself to one.

ive taken deer with the 270win, used the 3006, also taken elk with 270.

come this season ill be packn one of these and itl be luck of the draw that gets the kill.

22/250. it wont go much but it will go.
2506, itl more than likly do the dead.
270win. might get the cake cause its been good luck for me for over 12 years, same rifle same caliber lots of kills.
3006, cause grandpah gave it to me
300win. my elk rifle. might be fine turning it come deer season and test a load on deer before i head to biguns.

so your guess is as good as mine. ;)

good luck this season everyone, were getn pretty close.

Evan

[theweave]

i am new to this forum and found and joined it because i was looking for info on the .25/300wsm (all hail hi ball) but after reading 10 pages of this bull i decided i should cut in and TELL yall about the perfect deer rifle now i started hunting with a 30/30 and killed a few deer with it then i was given a 303 brit and the first time i pulled the trigger on a deer with it i was in total awe (i was 13) it took that deer of its feet and i mean slamed it to the ground couldnt have hit it harder with a truck later my dad had a .243 built for me and had to give me a crash course on balistics because i kept shooting over every thing go figure i didnt have to hold high like with my 22lr or 30/30 or 303 when shooting at any thing that was far away (anything over 100 yds at that time) you know that .243 handloaded with a 100gr seirra accounted for a few deer after i began understanding this fantastic new concept ballistics boy was i hooked i started reading everything i could find on the stuff then i would go to school and amaze my buddies with this stuff heck i was balistics specialist in the making that was about the time i found out who jack was and about the .270 win i had to have one so i did my chores saved up half and with some help from good old dad (who shoots a 25-06 115 gr nos par) bought one i was ready for anything with those nifty store bought 130's i was on my way to makeing myself a nusiance to all my uncles and my dad because just about every deer i shot i had to have help to find why? because there was no blood no exit wound but how could this be i read the books studied the balistics but my holy .270 win didnt kill as good as i had read why? well in later years i discovered through trial eror and handloading that balistic dont mean doodly squat if you dont couple them with the right bullet so what is the greatest deer rifle well in my opinion theres not a perfect caliber out there they are all good or great within their limits but what i have come to look for in any of the calibers that i now hunt with is the combination of an accurate load which leaves an exit wound and does minimal damage to edible flesh but optimal damage to organs in my .243 its 100gr seirra gk at 3100 in my .270 its 140 gr accubond bt at 2950 in my .300 win mag its 165gr seirra gk at 3150 is one any better on deer than the other not in my hummble opinion they are all accurate they dont ruin to much meat and all leave an exit wound 95% of the time the other 5% they run in to too much bone but when that happens i usually dosent matter because all of that bullets energy is expended and it nocks them in the dust so after wading thru all this bull whats the best .....the one that lets you walk right up to that deer with minimal effort on the way... wether its a 220 or a 338 or my next project .25/300wsm (which id like to have more input on) use the right combination of caliber and load and you will have a "perfect" deer rifle

long live the bull !!!
theweave

ps i have a 74 scout just in case you where wondering

[fabsroman]

Welcome to the board "theweave."

At first, I thought you were going to be one of these guys with "the perfect deer cartridge", but it looks like you actually understand that there is no such thing.

If you want answers regarding the .25/300 wsm, you should start a new thread in the rifles forum titled .25/300 wsm. I know Rocky knows a lot about rifles and wildcat cartridges, and I know there are plenty of other guys on here that know a lot about rifles and ballistics. I am an amateur compared to those guys.

[6.5s4ever]

The Best of course is the one you have harvested the most deer with. That of course in my case is the 6.5-06 with a 140 gr sierra bullet.:D

[hofts]

easy, new ultra light arms, mountain rifle in 7mm-08. or 280.

all the talk about speed, ever seen something killed with a 35 whelen.........oh my god.!!! instant death. no walking period.

[Evan03]

theweave

shortmags.org

for all your short mag wild catting needs. what shortmags are you currently plaing with. do you have the 300wsm thatl be your donor rig.

anyways im just curious is all im still looking for that perfect big game hunting rig one that specificaly goes after deer. i hope i never find it or atleast keep talking my self into trying new ones.

ive tried the 270win
2506
and also use 3006 but ive never taken game with it.
also used 270wsm for a shortwhile and loaded 140gr nos bts. great acuracy and good results on coyotes at range.

ive got 165gr nos bt loaded as the deer bullet in the 06. 100gr nos bt loaded in the 2506 and use 140s in the 270wsm(need another 277wsm)

ive yet to load for the 270win. rem core lockts hammer them plenty good in facotry fodder.

im also intrigued with the 25wsm. id like to do one some day but i have 2506. so i think ive talked myself into staying with the 270wsm so i can make use of my stash of 140gr bullets and 270wsm cases.

www.shortmags.org i drop in there everyounce inawhile

jave a good one

Evan

[theweave]

i order a barreled action from montana rifle a couple of weeks ago and should be recieving it in the next couple of weeks have since been trying to locate dies it seems that redding are the only ones that have them in stock for the 25/300wsm about $240 for the three die set $180 for 2 die set any one found them cheaper? i order the black mat action with 26" stainless barrel and am planning on mating it to a houge or choate stock havent decide yet i hope to have it set up and shooting good so that i can test different bullets on some hogs (great test media) before we go down to mexico for next deer season i would like to take it this year along with my 7 rem mag or 300win mag if i can find the right load bullet combo that will perform correctly i like an exit wound if i dont hit both shoulders and by testing the varrious load bullet combos on hogs i will have a real good idea of what it will be capable of anyone replying with load data would be a big help getting stared i am planning on using 270wsm data to start with i will post more info on my action barrel choice as i can

"the bull lives to die another day"

thanks
the weave

[deermeister]

Over the last fifty years, our little party in Michigan (eleven guys, one gal) have taken deer with all of the following:

.303 Enfield (sporterized)
.30/30 (six different guns--both Winchester and Marlin)
.308 (two)
.30/40 Krag (don't ask)
.30/06 (two)
7mm Mag
.270
.243
.357 Magnum (not a rifle, I just thru that in cuz it was me)
.444 Marlin
.35 Remington
.300 Winchester Mag

As well as various .50 and .54 cal muzzleloaders, and 12, 16 and 20 Ga shotguns.

I could go into long and boring details about each one, and how each owner swore by what he was using, until he bought another.

In the off season we discuss calibers and loads like the Lions discuss quarterbacks, and it's always interesting to see who shows up with what.

The .270 and the .06 have been the only "stayers", though.

I have a daughter just coming up on hunting age, and I am seriously considering a .270 or .280, mainly because I don't own one yet.

As to Mustangs, '65, '75 and '79, but they're all gone now.