White Moose

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

TO PROTECT THEM, OR NOT TO PROTECT THEM... That ... is the question....

Hey all.... wandering what kind of response other hunters would get from pic's like these.
I'm doing some reasearch on white moose, and thought that this would be a good place to find some info. I'm trying to get an accurate count of how many white moose are currently alive, and where they're at. So if anyone has some info, it would be greatly appreciated to forward it on to me... The numbers are to answer some government questions in regards to a possible live capture...
http://whitemoose.ca/pics/whitemoosefamily.jpg

http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM1.jpg

http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM3.jpg

http://whitemoose.ca/pics/WM6.jpg

http://whitemoose.ca/pics/mooseinbush.jpg
Those are all wild moose about 20 miles from my home. They're not albino.

Joel@WhiteMoose.Ca

[fabsroman]

Don't have any information on white moose other than what you posted here. In fact, I never knew such an animal existed unless it was an albino.

Whether to protect them or not depends on how many of them there are. Since I have never heard of one, I would assume that they aren't too abundant and that they should be protected.

[TSadler]

they are an abmination of nature and should NOT be protected. Same as white deer.

[foster]

Here's a white mooose seen on Highway 8 in northeastern New Brunswick on June 3, 2003.
However, everyone here is convinced they are merely albinos.

[foster]

Another shot.

[foster]

And last but not least.

[fabsroman]

Traci,

An abomination of nature is something that is man made. If nature created a white moose, I am sure it had a reason to do so. Same goes for white deer. Evolution is the result of mutation. If we take your theory a step further, white people are an abomination of nature because it is rumored that human life started in Africa.

[GoodOlBoy]

White people ain't an abonination! White people with mohawks are! :rolleyes:

IF they are manmade they should not be protected but should be wiped out. If not again it depends on numbers. We don't have laws to protect black squirrel, white pole cats (skunks fer those who ain't from the south and no I don't just mean albinos) nor poke salid (an around the south poke salid is a danged endagered species :D )

Personally I don't have any more or less need to hunt an animal because of the color of its pelt. When I pull the hide off that meat is all the same color, and its the meat I am eatin'. Not the hair, hide, nor horns.

My 2 cents.

Purty critters btw.

GoodOlBoy

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

Those pic's you've got posted... were taken about 20 miles from my house in N. Ontario in 2000 by Mark Clemente.

"Here's a white mooose seen on Highway 8 in northeastern New Brunswick on June 3, 2003."

Very interesting how they get around....

See the following link for an MNR write up about those moose pictures.

Page 1 : http://whitemoose.ca/pics/moosecall-article1.jpg

Page 2: http://whitemoose.ca/pics/moosecall-article2.jpg


And those other pictures that have been floating around that put on the hunting ban in Idaho... they were from N.Ontario as well.... I'll get documentation this summer when I get home.

Joel

[Blktail]

White moose are common where my brother lived in central BC. He lived in Faser Lake. He even got a photo of a piebald moose that looked like a pinto pony. Like you said, most white are not albino, they are piebald. I have a poor copy of the pic.
Like the old joke goes, one of his neighbors almost ran into three white moose in a snowstorm. (No kidding)
My brother had a calf permit one year and he had to wait for a pure white immature bull to get out of the way before he could shoot the calf. The bull was legal, but he took the calf instead. The hunting regs make note of the white moose in the area, and request they be left alone, but it is legal to shoot them.
When my dad was a kid he lived near Wetaskawin Alberta. An indian hunter got a white moose and when he tried to sell the hide to the fur guy he was offered only $10 because of the small bullet hole in the neck. The indian had his wife make the whole thing into moccassins.


Where abouts are you at Joel?

AS to the idiotic abomination remark by TSadler, it has been a while since I have seen such a rediculous remark posted here.

Fabs - you could not have come up with a more appropriate response than you did. Good for you.
I wonder if it is lost on Traci...

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

White phases appear in many Deer species so I can't see why Moose would be any different. We get white Fallow Deer here, however the estates normally cull them out. The reason is that they attract poachers, as they stand out in the dark they are easy to spot and once you find the white one............ well you have found the rest:(

Hey Fabs who started the roumour that us white folks started in Africa? if it's true then perhaps we should evict the Blacks from there like they have been doing the white folks over there:p now THAT would be a turn up for the Books:D :eek:

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

I'm living in N. Ontario (but in school right now in Ottawa). This herd is about 120 miles to the N.E. of Sault Sainte Marie .

"White phases appear in many Deer species so I can't see why Moose would be any different."
- This is a very interesting observation that I may not be able to answer to your liking. From what I understand, white deer in the states are much more frequent because they typically result from inbreeding.... brought on by huge open farmlands in between small plots of woods... Not so with the white moose, and so they're much more rare..
Also, i've seen lots of white deer with white fawns, but I've only been able to identify 1 strain of white moose (the ones in my area) that have white calves ... No idea . Any white moose in BC having white calves?


Blktail,
I'm very interested to recieve any documentation you could possibly find me regarding the white moose of BC. Such as how many are there left (that you know of) and how many were there. I'm also very surprised to hear that a native shot a white moose... given that they're sacred to the tribes in N. Ontario.

Joel

[Rocky Raab]

Not to put words in anyone's mouth, but perhaps the word Tracey meant was "an aberration of nature."

Which a white moose certainly is.

[fabsroman]

Okay,

Let me just clear up a couple of things. I have the utmost respect for Traci and have had several discussions with her on this board, but I just happen to disagree with her on this issue. It is kind of like saying that we should let nature take its course and just say good bye to those species that become extinct without trying to help them. It is a tough call.

Regarding my analogy to whites being abominations, I did not and do not intend to start any race bashing on this thread. I just thought that it was an appropriate analogy in this case.

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

"It is kind of like saying that we should let nature take its course and just say good bye to those species that become extinct without trying to help them."

- Where we're at, its not nature taking its course, its human factors leading to their demise.... They're in a shitty location in that they keep getting hit by the train, and the highway... Also, because of their location, the hunters keep getting them.

I've debated the 'natural selection' arguement, but came to the conclusion in other forums that the theory works well in the plains of Africa, but not so well where a mountain lion can jump onto the back of a full grown and healthy moose. Its just bad luck for the moose, not natural selection.

I'm pushing my govt. for protection measures from hunting and also a live capture and relocation into a large, fenced in and forested park. I'm looking at a plot about a square kilometer for every 4 moose. I just really don't want to loose this strain, as its been unbroken for over 40 years.... and i've yet to find another strain that can continually have white offspring. Furthermore, the grey guard hairs that show up may indicated an Evolutionary trend. Is it really that far fetched to have a moose which is white in the winter, and dark in the summer (like a snow shoe rabbit).


Thoughts...

Joel

[GoodOlBoy]

Hey fabs I knew ya didn't mean nothin' by it, and I thought it was a good comparrison. (Also I agree Tsadler is a great memeber to have on this board and I happen to agree with her 99% of the time. )

Let me put it another way. If they are an independant species and not just a variation on a current species, and they are not man made, then yes something should be done to protect them.

HOWEVER if the are just a variation then I don't think they should be any more or less protected than normal animals. If you start that how long is it before you start protecting them based on hoof color, antler shape, of nostril size?

Again my 2 cents

GoodOlBoy

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

GoodOlBoy,

Interesting that you brought up the species issue... it's come up in other discussions as well. Here's the last email I sent over to the Ministry of Natural Resources regarding the subject. Awaiting a response. Anyone know the answer to the question?

"March 3, 2005 10:19:39 PM
To : <bob.johnston@mnr.gov.on.ca>
CC : <TheriaultJoel@hotmail.com>

Bob,

Really enjoyed the informative conversation we had this afternoon. I just had one last question that I forgot to ask, which I'm hoping you can refer over to the biologists.

How does the MNR define 'species'?

So, what characteristics would the MNR need to find to characterize the white moose strain from Foleyet as a new species?

Also along those same lines, what is the difference between a 'black duck' and a 'mallard' ? Is a black duck considered a different species, or merely a sub-species? I'm just asking because the government has different guidelines regarding harvesting limits for these two types of ducks, yet they appear to be exactly the same with the difference being the darkness / color ... They can interbreed successfully ... I'm just trying to figure out why the government makes a distinction between the two types of ducks, and turn the idea to the white moose strain of Foleyet.

Also, I forgot to ask what options were on the table for protection measures... I.e. Protection from hunting? Live capture? Better yet, what options are not on the table at this point? "

Joel

Anyone else know the answer to the question?

Good Old Boy - "HOWEVER if the are just a variation then I don't think they should be any more or less protected than normal animals. If you start that how long is it before you start protecting them based on hoof color, antler shape, of nostril size?"

I guess it all depends why these variations are appearing? Many would say that ear lobe size doesn't matter, and shouldn't make a difference regading protection... but the different types of Elephants in Africa seem to indicate that it makes a huge difference, and its beneficial to have larger ears for cooling purposes.

It seems to be beneficial for many animals to have white fur pattens living in the north (polar bear, artic fox, artic rabbit) .... whereas the same pattern may not be so adapt for animals living in the south...

antler shape - what exactly is the difference between a mule deer and a white tail?

The real crux of the issue is that I'm not calling for an all out ban on hunting, I'm just talking about protecting 4 or 5 animals out of 100,000 ... Is that really too much to ask for?

Joel

[Wahnie]

Originally posted by GoodOlBoy
White people ain't an abonination! White people with mohawks are! :rolleyes:

Hey... I used to have a mohawk! A green one. You offend me, sir! :D

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by Joel@WhiteMoose

Good Old Boy - "HOWEVER if the are just a variation then I don't think they should be any more or less protected than normal animals. If you start that how long is it before you start protecting them based on hoof color, antler shape, of nostril size?"

I guess it all depends why these variations are appearing? Many would say that ear lobe size doesn't matter, and shouldn't make a difference regading protection... but the different types of Elephants in Africa seem to indicate that it makes a huge difference, and its beneficial to have larger ears for cooling purposes.

It seems to be beneficial for many animals to have white fur pattens living in the north (polar bear, artic fox, artic rabbit) .... whereas the same pattern may not be so adapt for animals living in the south...

antler shape - what exactly is the difference between a mule deer and a white tail?

The real crux of the issue is that I'm not calling for an all out ban on hunting, I'm just talking about protecting 4 or 5 animals out of 100,000 ... Is that really too much to ask for?

Joel

seperation of species have been define by many things over the past years. I believe these days it is mostly as simple as a DNA test.

I just watched a special on red wolves that involved trying to capture the most pure bred of the species to keep in captivity to breed and then reintroduce a pure bred pack of animals, back into the wild. Back in the day when they did the capturing the biologists used skull
X-Rays to make determinations, because some red wolves had interbred with coyotes and therefore had lost the distinguishing skull features that only the RED wolf species had that other Wolves and Coyotes did not have. It was stated that Today they would have just used DNA testing.

Good luck on your mission. Personally I think anybody that is as iterested in the subject as you probably has nothing but good intentions, and since I haven't heard you make any broad Anti-Hunting or AntiGun comments I wish you luck in your endeavors

[Joel@WhiteMoose]

DaMadMan,

You're right assuming that I'm not anti-hunting... My parents run a tourist lodge in N.Ontario specializing in fly-in fishing and hunting trips...

Here's my personal photo-book.

http://whitemoose.ca/AuthorProfileJoel/AuthorProfile3.html

So i'll let you decide my opinion regarding fishing and hunting...

"It was stated that Today they would have just used DNA testing." - Pretty technical stuff for me... But very interested to figure out how it would work... I'm pretty sure that I can still get a frozen sample of meat from a white bull which was hit by the train a couple years ago. My buddy's dad got to keep it. That pic was taken about 5 miles from my house...


http://whitemoose.ca/pics/kidonmoose.bmp

Joel

Any other thoughts?

[Blktail]

Joel

The white moose the native shot in Alberta was during the 1930's. I have never heard of them being sacred to natives out here, but an empty belly probably made the choice easy. There was a depression on and the natives were not in a good position to start with.

[Valigator]

Joel I think the pics are great....I am still looking for my white gator....and when I find him he wont be protected....but I think we are talking two different things here....mine are albino....your moose are just cool......:) :) ;)