moa - i hate to ask but

[scooterman27006]

i load and shoot and have read some but i have never really wanted to know because i dont shoot competition but since i am going to be asking a lot of questions i believe - i guess its time i figure this out - now if someone can explain to me how a group is described or graded i can discuss my shots with a little knowledge and not sound like a country redneck - not that is bad lol but this minute of angle thing - i understand that a 1/4 moa one click on the scope moves the impact point that much at 100 yards but as far as grading or describing a group that is something i have never done so if someone in a simple way can describe this or point me in the right direction for a good read then i sure would appreciate it - im sure its simple and with my simple mind i will get it just never had the exposure or desire - right now i describe it with coins lol dime nickel well you get the idea - thanks scoot

[8X56MS]

I am certainly not the guru here, but basically, a 'group' is a cluster of shots, and is used as an indicator of the accuracy of that gun, ammunition, or some other factor.
I think the most common method of measure, is from center to center, of the widest spaced shots. The more shots in each group usually is more indicative of true results. I believe in competition, groups are 10 rounds, but in informal range shooting, a lot of folks brag on their 'three shot groups'
Bear in mind, that the criteria used by one guy to measure his groups, might not be the same criteria used by another guy.
Different scopes, or iron sights, may well have knobs, dials, or whatever, that also differ in adjustment quantity from another brand.

[denton]

8X56M doesn't need to be so modest... That's exactly how it is most often done.

Just one small addition: MOA stands for Minute of Angle or Minute of Arc (same thing under these conditions). A degree is divided into 60 minutes, and a minute into 60 seconds. If your group is an inch at 100 yards, the angle between the two farthest shots is a minute, hence MOA, for all practical purposes is 1" groups at 100 yards.

[Rocky Raab]

I'll just jump in here, becasue scooter's next thought will be, "How do find the center of a hole?"

The two easiest ways to measure a "center-to-center" group are:

1. For groups where the widest holes are not touching, simply measure from the inside edge of one hole to the outside edge of its opposite hole. That's exactly the same as measuring from center to center, you have simply displaced the calipers a half a hole. Or,

2. Where all the holes touch (making one of those beautiful "wallet" groups), you measure from one outside edge to the other outside edge and then subract the width of one caliber. That's the same as moving in one-half a hole from each side, again giving an accurate center-to-center measurement.

[denton]

You mean you can get groups where they're not all touching!??:D

[scooterman27006]

lol now denton is the one i need rubbin off on me - listen rocky if i have to measure from the center of the hole to the center of the hole on the two farthest away from one another i can handle that and not fudge anymore than the other fellas lol i got it - i can just use the calipers even lol now i just need a gun that will shoot that close cause my calipers only measure 6" lmao

[Rocky Raab]

Scoot, I once was trying to work up loads for those little plastic sabots that allow you to shoot .224 bullets in a .30-cal gun. Just like Remington Accelerators, but you could handload them.

The groups were so big I used a GPS to measure them!

[scooterman27006]

man not only am i learning stuff in here this is a hoot - i look forward to hitting the new threads button each time i get on lol

[BILLY D.]

HYPOTHETICALLY, AND JUST TO THROW %^&* IN THE GAME HOW DO YOU MEASURE A ONE HOLE GROUP. IT'S HARD TO MEASURE ONE BIG CENTER.

I WAS TAUGHT TO MEASURE THE TWO WIDEST SHOTS AND SUBTRACT ONE CALIBER.

IE: 1 INCH BETWEEN HOLES - ONE CALIBER. 1 INCH AND IF YOU ARE SHOOTING A 30;06

1.000- .308=.692 IS THE GROUP SIZE.

[iwerk2hard]

scooterman27006
You picked a great forum. It's a great bunch with a vast array of knowledge. I don't post much, but I'm here at least once a day just to see what I can learn. One of the things I've learned, that really sticks out in my mind, I learned from Rocky Raab. It has to do with some cheap handguns and their propensity toward
"Spontaneous, high-velocity, omnidirectional self-disassembly" .
You'll like it here.
:D

[Cal Sibley]

Hello scooterman27006,

Boy, that's quite a handle you have there. All I can add is to be sure you mark your targets with all the pertinent data, and save them in a binder. You're only competing with yourself, but it's quite a thrill each time you shoot a smaller group than before. You'll also learn a lot by analysing your groups as to which bullets and powders perform best for you. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[scooterman27006]

cal and fellas i have done this to an extent - well i started out doing this - i would label each target with numbers and list my loads for each target so i would know what load went with what number/target and thats how i come up with the best load so far lol not that there wont be better but "so far" this is the best and i went from there- i havent seen much of what i want to do but in a different thread i am going to post what kind of gun and load i found to be best so far and see what kind of response i get with what others use - my plan is to use the info and i will do one gun only at a time lol instead of jumping around from one to the other like i have been doing- and i am going to stop getting the barrel so hot also lol - look for my post on sharing my best load so far and thanks for all the great suggestions

[Evan03]

id rather you be country redkneck then talk moa and figure groups size the right way.

i measure groups from outside to outside of hole in the paper. MOA means nothing to me, so far ive only punched groups at 100-200yds.

i also describe groups as dime or knickle size. i dont shoot competition so knowing the actual group size to me is kinda useless.

i only shoot paper when working up loads or siting ion a scope, most of my shooting is done at game and all my rifles shoot minute of critter. i think minute of critter is rockys saying.

[MarkL]

I would like to point out that 1 MOA is not EXACTLY 1 inch at 100 yards. There is about a 5% difference (I can't remember which is larger than the other, though). It's basically a "happy accident" that the two are so close.

Also, you have to specify the range (to the target) when comparing groups. A 2 inch group at 200 yards is just as good as a 1 inch group at 100 yards. The angular dispersion is the same.

[Evan03]

that being the case then all of us could shoot 8" groups at 800yds easily. just because rifle and shooter can shoot 1" 100yd groups doesnt mean they can hold MOA to exstended ranges

moa is only for those that shoot at long range and know how to use all that stuff. i realy truly could care less about it, but i like to punch paper to 300yds and like knowing the point of impact at difrent ranges and how my groups are.

i figure groups with other objects, like if i can shoot a 200yrd group the size of my fist then im good to 200 acuraetly with that rifle. if i can also do that at 300 then thats even cooler.

[BILLY D.]

SAY WHAT!!!!

[Evan03]

saaaaaay whaaaaaaaat :)

[Rocky Raab]

Well, guys, I've hunted with Evan. A fine lad. He's a truly practical hunter and shooter who doesn't get all wrapped around the axle with high falootin' technical talk.

He just shoots and hits things.

He'd care about MOA if it was a sandwich or a predator call. But while you and I are talking about how many quarter-minute clicks to dial in for the wind, he'd already be recovering from the recoil - and he'd have hit the thing.

You know what? That's not a thing wrong with that approach!

[MarkL]

Originally posted by Evan03
that being the case then all of us could shoot 8" groups at 800yds easily. just because rifle and shooter can shoot 1" 100yd groups doesnt mean they can hold MOA to exstended ranges

I'd have to say I agree with you and that I probably oversimplified things a bit. At long ranges, things like wind have a much greater affect on group size than they do at short ranges, so it is harder to shoot a given MOA at long range.

[Cossack]

Sounds like your 224/30 group was about like mine when I mistakenly shot 17 HMR's in my 22WMR! I couldn't find a hole from which to start scope adjustment....at 30 yards!

[Rocky Raab]

Yup, just like that. I had several of them miss a 2x4 foot target at 50 yards.

[wildworks]

here is some math for you all!

MOA= 1.0476" @ 100yrds thus MOA = 10.476" @ 1000yards

1 moa click = .2619" @ 100 and 2.619" @ 1000

to figure MOA is at any given distance :

.000291x(distance in Yrds)x 36 = moa

Ex: .000291X1450yrdsX36= 15.1902" =1 MOA @1450yrds


say my ball. calculator. says my gun needs 37 moa to acheive this range this just tells me that the bullet drop = 37x15.1902= 562.0374"

just fun stuff to play with

[Rocky Raab]

Shouldn't that be 1/4 MOA click is .2619 at 100 yds?

Also, if you have two constants (.000291 and 36) in your equation, you can simply pre-multiply them. The result, of course, is .010476. So range times .010476 is MOA.

Right? I'm no math scholar.

[wildworks]

I did forget to specify 1/4 or 1/8 th moa clicks! and yes you can pre multiply the eq.


and you say you are not a mathmagician??????

no one ever accused me of being smart! I just thought this fun to play with without getting too tech.!!!!!!

[Rocky Raab]

Intro to Algebra is as far as I got, brother. And since I was in an all-boys high school at the time, I spent most of that class fantasizing about Alge's bra - if you know what I mean.

[BILLY D.]

ROCKY

I DON'T EVEN KNOW YOU BUT I LOVE YOU ANYWAY. YOU GOT A REAL WAY WITH WORDS.

IF YOU WERE FANTISIZING ABOUT ALGE'S BRA YOU MUST HAVE BEEN GOING TO A CATHOLIC HIGH SCHOOL.

[Rocky Raab]

Indeed it was. Assumption High in East St Louis, Illinois - total of 600 students. Which meant something like 300 gallons of raging testosterone went sloshing through the halls every day.

Our 'sister' school was St Theresa's. I suppose they had sloshing estrogen, but I never saw any evidence of that.

BTW, for a Catholic school, we were raw. In my class was a son of the local crime family, and six of my classmates drew convictions for grand larceny, aggravated assault and murder two. I didn't count the auto theft, drugs or robbery/burglary ones: too many to keep track of.

They later converted the place to a juvenile detention center, but that wasn't much of a change!

[BILLY D.]

HOLY SMOKE, I'M GLAD I WAS IN 'NAM WHERE IT WAS QUIET AND SAFE. :eek:

I RECOGNIZED YOUR DESCRIPTION OF SCHOOL DAYS FROM MY OWN. I WENT TO A CATHOLIC HS ALSO, CHAMINADE, DAYTON OHIO. NO ROWDINESS THERE, IF YA WERE YA GOT EXPELLED. AT THAT TIME IT WAS WORSE THAN EXCOMMUNICATION.

HOW TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

[Rocky Raab]

Mine was 1961-'65.

The week I started (with a scholarship), the teaching brothers pulled some of us aside and said, "If you want an education here, you have to get it yourself. We're too busy keeping order."

It was the truth.

There was a black market run out of the lockers where you could buy a gun, a girl or a "hot" car. Even heroine.

I was a weak and skinny kid, a smart guy and a loner. Prey, in other words. The only way I stopped the attacks and threats was to wire my biggest bully's car with an incendiary device one Friday night. It was a small one, but on Monday I told him that if he kept up on me, things would get bigger on his end, too. Nobody fooled with me after that.

Funny, huh?

[Evan03]

i think hard times created great people.

Rocky and otheres are a rare breed, they sure dont make em like them anymore


Evan