357 Maximum

[sharktown]

Anybody hunt with this cartridge? If so what do you like or dislike about it?
I reload this round for both a 8" Dan Wesson and a 10" Contender. I don't hunt but used to shoot metallic silhouette a lot some years back - I just use the guns on the range now.
Would you share any load data for the Max?
I load 20gr of IMR 4227 with a 215gr gas checked cast bullet and small rifle primer. It was(and I would think still is) a real good load on the silhouette targets.
I don't know the velocity as I never checked it but it is pleasant enough to shoot all day. Could load it up more but this seems to work for me.

Guy

[gregarat]

I want to get a T/C barrel in .357Max! I never hunted with it, but I knew someone who used the .357Max for sihilouette.


It shot like a dream.

[sharktown]

I never hunted with the 357 Max either but did shoot a lot of silhouette with the round years ago, both revolver and Contender. It was and still is a damn fine accurate round.
My guns have a preference for 215gr cast bullets and are very accurate - anything lighter than 180-170gr and accuracy suffers some.
But again that is how my guns shoot, you could have different results.

Guy

[HPBTMTCH]

I have a .357 max i use for deer in ohio. After a looking at a lot of streight walled cases legal in ohio, it`s the flattest shooting and least amount of recoil i could come up with

[Catfish]

I load and shoot several mag. handgun round and load nothing but Win. 296 in my mag. loads. I took a deer with mine this year and it did a good job. For this round and deer hunting I would recomand the 158 grn. Hornady XTP`s. I shot a deer with a 170 grn. Serria`s a few years back and hit the shoulder joint and got bullet failer, the bullet was just to soft for the velosities that you get with the .357 max.
I checked my book and you can get another 100 fps. with the 296 over the 4227. I like it because you get more velosity with less chamber presure than any other powder and I have gotten good accuracy with every gun I`ve shot it in, give the 296 a try, i think you`ll like it.

[sharktown]

Catfish -
I have tried 296 and I do like it alot but will only load this for the revolver as the muzzle blast in the Contender is too extreme.
It was early on when I started to load with 296 for the Max and maybe I just loaded too hot - not sure on that. I'll have to check my log book.
Thanks for the tip.

Guy

[Catfish]

Guy,
That`s funny, I`ve never really thought that the muzzle blast was any different than with any other powder when pushing the high end of velosities in any of the rounds I`ve put it in. But then, it`s all I`ve loaded since the early 1980`s, that and some H-110 when I could get a buy on it.

[Rapier]

The 357 Super Mag is an excellent hunting round with the choice of the right bullet. I prefer the 180 Hornady SP or the 200 Remington RN, both rifle bullets, for hunting. I like the 200 RCBS as a cast bullet. I prefer H-110 over W-296, just because (no, there is no difference).

I own several 357 SM guns and have shot the 357 SM in a DW, EL Dorado, TC, Martini, Ruger and a Seville. I received my first two Rugers from the factory, by way of Davidson, before there was any brass. The DW with a 200 Rem RN killed a 250lb wild boar at 30 yards. Took out about 4 inches of leg bone and the left shoulder joint before going through the heart and then lodging against the right side plate.

One thing that I found about the 357 SM is that for pure accuracy, the 357 Mag case loaded with a rifle bullet to SM velocity usually produced better accuracy, until you pass the point where the case capacity becomes a problem, then the SM case has to be used. Once you compress the powder heavily, the SM case produces good accuracy. By good I mean 3/4 inch at 100 or better.

The 357 SM in a little rifle carbine with the 180 SP is a real deer stopper, when you get over 2,100 fps. It will drop Bambi in his tracks like a lightning bolt. Did that last year. Bullet went that way, deer hit ground, two kicks, finis.

I quit shooting steel several years ago and started hunting again.
Ed

[Catfish]

Rapier,
In and El Dorado!!! I`ll bet that their aren`t 5 guys on this board that have ever seen one of them. I have one in a .44 mag. and it`s the best shooting single action handgun I`ve ever seen. Do you know if they are still in business????? I haven`t heard anything about them since the late 1980`s. They made one heck of a gun.

[Rapier]

Catfish,
Last time I talked to them, in Chimney Rock, they were closed down, had all of the parts and equipment stacked against the wall and had converted their shop into an Indian artifacts gift shop, selling ginuine artifacts, made out back. :-) They were located at the edge of a reservation in NC... I managed to get a full set of parts for my 357 SM gun from them, just in case... But that was about 8 years ago. The guns are fine shooters as long as the cylinder bearings hold up.

Oh, let me relate a story to you about the two guys. I ordered a set of grips from them one time. The grips did not come and did not come, so after about three months I called. We could not make the grips cause it is raining and we hand carve the grips out back under the tree..... Quirky, real quirky

The story of the ElDorado is interesting in that it was two guns, by two different names, depending on when it was made, where it was made and who made it. The Seville was the first of the series and just about all of the Super Mag cartridges were available in the Seville. I have also had a 375 and a 445.

If you like fine revolvers and do not have one, get yourself a Freedom in 357 mag. The old 353 model is really something.
Ed

[Catfish]

Rapier,
I`ve got 3 - .357`s that are all shooter and I`m more into the big bores. 3 - .44 mags., 2 - .454`s and a .500 S&W. I tried to get my El Dorado in .454 but they would not chamber it so it`s a .44 mag. Funny though, I have a friend that was shooting steel with a Freedom arm .44 mag. and thought it was the best gun in the world untill I let him shoot my El Dorado, he could not believe the trigger and how smooth it was. They did mess up on my trigger though. I ordered it with a 2 oz. trigger and when it came it had less than 1/2 oz. Great for target shooting but I had trouble hunting with it. I put in the lightest Ruger spring I could get and it`s now abt. 6 oz. and great for hunting and still good on the range.

[Tater]

Sorry for butting in but, what's the difference between .357 mag and max?

[gd357]

The .357 max has more length than a .357 mag (.315" to be exact). Another step up, similar to the .38 spl and the .357 mag.

gd

[skeet]

Wanted one in a Contender but never got around to it. Just remembered it the other day when I found a box of New Remington brass in my stash of stuff while trying to clean stuff out:confused: Yeah right...in my next life I guess:D

[Lone Star]

Originally posted by gd357
The .357 max has more length than a .357 mag (.315" to be exact). Another step up, similar to the .38 spl and the .357 mag.
gd The Maxi is also loaded to higher chamber pressures than the Magnum is: 35,000 psi for the Mag and 40,000 psi for the Maxi. Revolvers suitable for the Mag are not suitable for the Maxi, chiefly because their cylinders are far too short.

[Rapier]

Lone Star,
Actually, the SM cruises at about 50K. It will step on out there, but rarely is anything over 50K needed. I have pushed the El Dorado to the point that it became "alive" when fired, just to find out how hard it could be pushed. By alive, I mean the gun comes back, up and sideways while it twists on the bore axis, all in one motion. That is my "maximum" on a heavy magnum. With the 357 SM in a revolver, "alive" occours at about 1750-1800 fps with a 200 grain bullet.

By the by, I did have an original stainless DW 10 inch 445 SM that I sold last year, I do have first rights of return. :-) It will do 2,000 with a 220 cast. It also shoots 3/4 inch groups. One trip to the woods deer hunting and it did not go back, too big, too heavy.
Ed

[Lone Star]

Actually, the SM cruises at about 50K... Nope, not at 50,000 psi it doesn't, and it never did. Some reloaders still confuse psi with CUP, and this is what has apparently happened here. The SAAMI MAP standard for the .357 Rem Max is 48,000 CUP, or 40,000 psi. Go here for the facts:
http://www.accuratepowder.com/loaddata_caliber_handgun_standard_357cal.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

[Rapier]

I did not confuse anything nor did I misread your post. What I said in my post was 50K, what you assume is on you, you do understand about assume, do you not? You said PSI, I did not say, nor did I mean PSI.

However, My information about the 357 Super Mag predates the manual, SAMI specs and any writings, except those of Elgin, himself. The information about the cartridge in the Accurate manual is in error from top to bottom. I am surprised that they have printed such tripe. The cartridge, as were all of the Super Mag series, was designed for use in the IHMSA by the former president of the IHMSA, period.

Remington attempted to claim the design as their own; they did not develop anything except a good case of heartburn responding to Elgin Gate's lawyers. In a letter, published in the Silhouette, Remington admitted that the design was given to them by Elgin and that they made an error in claiming it was their design or that they had any part in the design. Ruger built the SRM to Elgin's specifications, except that Bill Ruger, himself, decided to shorten the cylinder and frame in the 11th hour, just prior to production. David Bradshaw, then from Vermont, and a member of the board of the IHMSA was the liaison between Bill and Elgin. Dan Wesson's gun was second out and was built precisely as Elgin had specified. The SRM died, the DW lived.

The 357 Super Mag case was designed by Elgin to do 55K, easily, and it does so. It was also designed for heavy bullets using extruded powder.

There has been more HS/BS written about the 357 SM cartridge by "knowledgeable" writers than I can shake a stick at. Most is just that, BS.

My first two SRMs were shipped to me by Steve Vogel, VP of SR and Bill's son in-law, through Davidson. Davidson was located across the street from the main plant. My two guns were hand carried by Steve across the street, or at least that is what he told me when he called to confirm shipment. The first guns pre-dated any brass being available.

Remington did not offer the first brass offered for sale to the public, it was offered by Federal, had a ram head stamp and was sold through the Silhouette, if I recall correctly.

Ed

[Lone Star]

I did not confuse anything nor did I misread your post. What I said in my post was 50K, what you assume is on you, you do understand about assume, do you not? You said PSI, I did not say, nor did I mean PSI. We'll let the rest of the readers decide what you really meant, but after the defensive response above it seems pretty clear to me....

All the posturing about the SM is interesting, but it seems designed more to distract from the point of issue than to provide clarity. My credits: I bought SM brass from Elgin the first year he offered it through the Silhouette, but of course we know that Elgin originally intended to use heavy silhouette bullets in it, not the lightweight stuff Remington and the gunwriters used. Still, his chambering/throat specs were different than what Remington used in their .357 Maxi, which afterall is the subject of this thread. DW at one time did use dimensions closer to what Elgin envisioned, but I don't know about the smaller makers like ED. Firearms chambered to the .357 Maximum should use data for the .357 Maxi, not for the .357 SM.

But the bottom line remains the same. The poster asked what the differences were between the .357 Mag and the .357 Maxi. The .357 Maxi has a maximum chamber pressure of 48,000 psi/40,000 cup. Recommending pressures above SAMMI specs is, well, not too wise. Not specifiying the units you are using is irresponsible and could easily get the less informed into trouble. None of us want that.