DG Stopping Rifle - Double vs Bolt

[PhilLozano]

Stopping rifles and cartridges.

Stoppers get all the "Press" but the least amount of the use.

Regarding Stoppers, I have and have used both, a Bolt Action and a Double.

Which is better ?

If anyone has any thoughts regarding the use of these rifles and cartridges, we can get the topic going.

What do you like, Double or Bolt ? What cartridge ? What makes one better than the other in "ending" the deal with a dangerous animal ?

What cartridge would you choose and why ?

Let me know your choices.

Best regards,
Phil

[Hi Ball]

Phil.........I have always used bolt guns mostly to hunt with while growing up and it carried on after I got older. Uncle Sam introduced me to the M1-Garand (semi-auto) and the M-14 which was a couple steps above the Garand and could fire fully auto.

I tried a double gun twice upon a time and could never seem to get down the idea of reloading it fast enough to suit my intended goals. I also thought that carrying something that heavy (rifle weighed in at close to 14 pounds) would wear yours truly out after a day or two in the hot African sun, making ones arms feel like spaghetti towards sundown.

I'll stay with my model 70 Winchesters and my ability and confidence level to use them with great success. I have a full battery of those Safari type rifles ranging from the famed .375 H&H, upwards including the tried and true .458 Win mag, and a custom .475 caliber up to a 510 caliber. I'll leave the double guns for those wealthy PH's of African glory!;) :D :D

[PhilLozano]

Mr. Hi Ball,

I was not getting at what you would carry so much, as to what action type you would choose and what makes a 'Stopping' cartridge.

You sort of answered it.

I guess you would chose a Bolt gun, not sure which cartridge.

Is rifle weight, not being able to reload after 2 shots fast enough for your piece of mind and the cost, the basis for your choice ?

What would you choose for a cartridge ?

Where do 'Stopping' cartridges start ? (not speaking of what will kill the animal, Bell shot Elephants with a 7mm Mauser, does not make it a stopper).

Where do they start, what is enough, what is a bit better etc.

More than raw power come into the formula, I think.

Like to hear your thoughts.

I will post my choices in a few days.

Perhaps the cartridge question should be a seperate topic. I will make a new post, if the interest is there, or someone else might do the same.

By the way, I have a nice Westley Richards Double, and I am so far from wealthy, I cannot even see the 'W' ! LOL

Best,
Phil

[pomoxis]

It also depends on what you are use to shooting and if you want to use a scope. A double with open sights will limit your ranges and if you are on the long side of 40 you may have trouble changing your focus from your back sight front sight to target. If the buffalo is grazing on your shoe laces that problem is solved, at 50 yards it is more of a problem.

If you practice working a bolt action you can put mutiple shots on target in short order. If I had to buy a new rifle and could not buy a .375 H&H I would be tempted by the .416 Rigby because it is a clasic Arican caliber. For a modern cartridge a .458 Lott would be another good choice because in a pinch you can fire a .458 Win.

If I won the lottery and was going after a Grand Safari with elephant on the list I would pick the .458 Lott and carry 450 grain solids.

I need to buy a few lottery tickets

[Darkwolf]

You and me both Pomoxis....

The concept of the immediate follow-up shot seems to be the clincher to the professional hunters I've seen or read about, many of whom seem to favour doubles. The idea seems to be that when they come to bear, it's a charging critter at swiftly decreasing range so they don't need a scope or the third shot so much because they only have time for two, or at least they'd trade the idea for that quick one-two snap shot right up the nose...

STOPPING cartridge? I'd be tempted to say starting at the .375, but this is life insurance... so there really isn't any such thing as overkill. Heavy side of the .400's and well into the .500's seem to be the order of the day. I've heard of a self-defense shot on a Somali Elephant with a .270 and a reversed bullet (solid-end first)... but that's a Hail-Mary play. A .223 would technically drop a charging buff right through the central cortex.... But a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Winchester would probably be a lot more assuring if you had ground-shaking, adrenaline rush, closing distance... If the bullet smashed in just off-center, it's a lot more likely to do the job enough to let you live.

Actual caliber? Like grizzly medicine. The heaviest you can accurately and physically shoot.


Theoretically for me? As in, "Welcome to Fantasy Island, Bwana Darkwolf"?

.416 Rigby double with some damn heavy solids... As expensive as a Spanish castle and almost as heavy... But tried-and-true matched with all the above would at least be the factor... and some nostalgic sense too.


Reality? A bolt-action, scoped magazine rifle in .375 would probably be in my hands at the wet-a$$ hour. I can afford it, handle the cartridge and it would be the choice for the neophyte Nimrud I would be.... which is why heavy .600 Nitro Express-double toting PH's are legally mandatory for us.

:D


Just as a weird nostalgia question, how would Teddy Rooseveldt's .405 Winchester rate as a stopper? Or as a client's hunting cartridge for some of the african medium-heavys by the modern perpective? Realistic hunting rifle or lever-action spray-and-pray?

[M.T. Pockets]

I have no experience with any hunting in Africa, or dangerous game at all so take this into consideration.

Is there one "stopper" gun that would be best for all 5 ? I remember Elmer Keith writing about a PH that carried a sawed off shotgun loaded with buckshot when he went after wounded leopards. Good for leopards, poor choice for the ones with hoofs. Nothing very glamorous about a shotgun though, especially in Africa.

I'm sure each situation is different. Personally, I'd prefer a double because I've seen people short throw a bolt action and jam it up. Without debating controlled round feed, I've seen bolt actions fail to cycle more than once. Cartridge ? Biggest I could find and handle. Elmer used a side by side in .500 Boswell.

[PhilLozano]

In stopping a charge, cartridge/bullet counts more than which kind of rifle you use.

As long as you have a RELIABLE rifle, one shot is all you are going to get, because in a charge situation, the critter is coming to kill you. Much different than a hunting situation.

As long as your weapon is reliable and your cartridge/bullet is adequate, you will take the one shot when you are positive you cannot miss the brain. That might be at 15ft., but you must wait.

Best,
Phil

[M.T. Pockets]

I recall the video of the lion charge that was all over the internet about a year or two ago. This lion had been hit by a hunter and was seen crouched about 30 yards away in the bush. Several people emtied their guns and one person was injured when the lion knocked him down. I think there were about 10 shots in all.

If I was in that position I know which of my guns I would liked to have had.

Do I dare speak this..... even online ?

My 12 guage autoloader with a slug barrell using the 3" copper slugs that Barnes loads. Today's autoloaders are probably more reliable than your typical hunter using a bolt or pump under pressure like that when more than one shot is needed.

I know this is no elephant, buffalo or rhino gun under any circumstance. But for wounded cats upclose I think it would would have a place.

I'm far from a PH, or dangerous game hunter, but that is my take on the lion charge in that video.

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I saw that lion charge too and my brothers and I were talking about it last Sunday dinner. We disagree about some of the facts (i.e., whether or not the guide had a gun, whether or not it was the guide that got mauled), but we all agreed that these guys were terrible under the pressure of the attack.

Personally, I think an autoloader shotgun loaded with alternating 3 1/2" shells of barnes X bullet sabots and #00 buckshot would be my gun and loads of choice if I had to go after anything dangerous at short range with the exception of maybe an elephant, cape buffalo, or hippo. I might even take the shotgun on a cape buffalo because it is going to be so close and charging that the shots on its head will be close up and the slugs and buckshot should have enough power to go through that skull and cause a mess of damage.

[royinidaho]

Don't know why I'm jumping in here but I have been thinking of a "stopper". That's why I traded (on huntchat) for a Ruger #1 375 H&H.

I'll be hunting Elk in griz country for the rest of my life and I'd like it to be as long as possible, and just got to thinking that the 270 or 338 Win Mag may not be sufficient.

Was reading American Hunter where they took more than sever shots from a 375 w/270gr bullets to get a big brown finalized. Then I think it was 3 shots from a 416 on another one to ensure it was finalized.

Have a close friend that when he and the PH got done killing a cape buffalo it was on the order of 15 feet from them. Turns out the PH missed and my friend did the killing. He was using a 416 rem or rigby which ever is larger. The frontal shot in the chest is the one that ended it.

I suppose the 375, 300gr solid @ almost 2700 would be sufficient.

I'm trying to decide whether a 300gr soft nose bullet @ about 2600 fps or a 270 gr @ 2600 is sufficient for my insurance policy. :confused:

[pomoxis]

There is a signature line that I read on a different bulletin board that said "It is not the CALIBER of the rifle that matters, it is the CALIBER of the MAN behind it."

With a bullet designed for deep penetration and to break bone a .270 that expands out to twice the size you have a .54 wound channel. You need to have one of three things to happen. 1) hit the nervous system (brain or spine) to incapacitate the animal. 2) break bones that allow the animal to keep moving. If you are able to hit a foreword shoulder and the momentum of the animal causes it to tumble you will have a few more seconds while the animal tries to get up. 3) Cause a hydrostatic shock. This is where the force of the bullet sends a ripple through the body fluids and disrupts the nervous system. When you hear of an animal that get a solid hit and just stands there it could be that the bullet sent a shutter to the nervous system and muscles just lock up. When the shock wears off they just walk away. Some hunters think they missed.

Ideally you want all 3 to happen.

If you are going to be in grizzly country a cheap insurance policy would be loading a top quality bullet in your rifle. A Swift A frame, Trophy Bonded Bearclaw or the Failsafe are designed for this deep penetration. My personal preference is the Banes X because it acts like a solid after it expands.

[gumboot458]

In response to your question about double verses bolt , a lot of very good info has been posted. I live and work in a sub artic rain forest that has the highest contrations of Alaskan Brown Bear , of any where "in my knowledge" out side the McNiel River area. There are true , impenatrable jungle conditions here, which are usually avoided,but occasionally have to be traversed on foot when sport/subsistance hunting for Sitka black tail deer or Moose or Mountain goats.. Bear hunting also. I have had to stand down bluff charges from brown bear a number of times and have needed to run off many bears . I have been very Blessed by God to never have gotten a bear on top of me nor been bit or hit by one . as I often work and hunt alone, this issue of which is best is more than acidemic for me. So far I have used the 458 win mag, hand loaded with 400 gr bonded core and X bullets and the 416 Taylor w/ 325 gr X bullets and both have stopped the bears imediately. One bear required 3,5oo gr factory sp bullets to drop.however I,m not too sure 1 of those shots was very well placed. All these bears were lion size or larger and I was by myself. I am convinced that under worst case senerios a 500 of 577 double would do what a large medium or large bore rifle will not. ther2 draw backs are cost and weight, However an 18,000$ Searcy 577 nitro double rifle is a lot cheaper than a few reconstructive surgeries. please reply essespecially if any one has used the 505 or the 500 A-Square on in bound game . gumboot ,out.

[Skyline]

Well for packing around grizzly country I use a .375 and have been carrying it for years. I feel confident with it on bears and I think the .416 is a bit more of a good thing. The .458 is better.

But for African game...the big stuff........I believe that a stopping rifle isn't a .416 either. The .416 would be the minimum I would want to be carrying in a fullout charge situation with any of the big stuff. I think the true stopping rifles start with the various .458 cartridges and go up from there, all things being equal, ie. using a good bullet designed for maximum penetration.
The other factor to take into account with 'stopping' cartridges, beyond the bullet construction, is the frontal area of the bullet. Bigger is better.

Anyone who has seen a lot of big animals hit with various cartridges can attest to the difference in the visible affect the big bullets with lots of frontal area have on impact.

If I could afford it I would go with a double in .470 Nitro. There are of course bigger available, but I think it is a good bet with everything taken into account, such as ammo availability and rifle cost.

If I was sticking to a bolt gun then I would go for a .458 Lott.

[gd357]

Just out of curiosity, and reliability aside, How about a semiauto carbine in a big bore round like the Alexander Arms .50 Beowulff? As long as you're shooting solids wouldn't that suffice?

gd

[Skyline]

gd357...............a semi-auto for dangerous game? :eek:

It's simply not cricket..............there are certain standards that have to be adhered to. ;)

Aside from any of the perceived issues with reliability............most safari destinations do not allow the importation of semi-automatic weapons.

[OneShotBandit]

I'm just an African hunting afcienado(sp). I crave anything about hunting in the Dark Continent, hell I bought a InterArms Mark X in .375 just for fun. I would have to agree w/the statement that it isn't the caliber, But the caliber of the man/hunter. If cost be damned IMHO and that's all it is- I would go for a nice Rigby, H&H or a W-Rs dbl. in 500 Nitro (stopper) and a 416 Rigby/Rem/Wthy in a bolt gun! Boy howdy! By the way that .375 didn't kick any worst then my bolt action Mossberg Slugster! In all realty. a .458 Lott would be the ticket in a bolt action as was stated that you could use the vernable .458 in a pinch. I read in my Cartridges of the World 8th Edition that the .458 is just "adequate" for use as a stopping round as loaded in "factory" state (reason for Jack Lotts wildcat). Just my 2 cents worth! :D

Virg

[MacD37]

Gentlemen, this seems to be an old string that has been brought forward for some reason! Possibly because the question has not been answered! For what ever reason, as I read the whole string, I found a lot of missinformation, some ideas that have been tried many times over the years, and that simply do not work, and most seemed to have missed the "QUESTION" all together!


First off, there is a large difference between a STOPPING RIFLE, and DANGEROUS GAME HUNTING RIFLE! I have some personal experience in both types of rifles, because that is my thing, hunting Dangerous game, where ever it roams.

The place where a STOPPER, and a DGR (dangerous game rifle) are the same, is both must have rock solid RELIABILITY! Beyond that, They are two distinctly different rifles. Both can be used for the other's purpose, but in the case of the HUNTING DGR, used as a stopper can be risky, while the stopper can be used to hunt DG without fault, a DGR is not always the best choice for stopping!

A stopping rifle must be set up a particular way, be it bolt or double! No other type of rifle is suited to the stopping use.

A Bolt action stopper, first, must be CRF, and secondly, must be chambered for a REAL stopping cartridge! After those two things are decided, next must be the fitting of the rifle to the shooter, so instinctive shooting is easy, without the use of the sights. If a scope is mounted on this rifle, it must be in Quick Detach rings, and bases, of high quality, that absolutely returns to zero every time the scope is removed, and replaced. Finally, it must be equipt with quality irons sights, as well. Then the action must be made absolutely reliable in it's feeding, every time, from the first shot, to the last, and from a single round placed dirrectly in the chamber, or from a full, or partially loaded magazine. The cartridge must be from a large medium, like the 375 H&H, which is bottom as a stopper, to the largest round the owner can shoot properly. IMO, the cartridges above .500 cal are not well suited to stoppers! The recovery time from the recoil of one shot to the next is too slow with anything larger, when time matter most!

A double rifle should be a side by side, and fitted to the shooter! with Iron sights that are visable in most types of lighting conditions, and should be weighted, and ballanced for fast handleing, and fitted to the shooter so a close shot can be made with thought of sights at all! Nothing used on dangerous game, in close encounters is faster, or more reliable than a well made S/S double rifle! The rifle must be light enough so it can be carried all day, in heat, and still have the shooter be able to shoot it well when tired, and sweaty. With this neccessity being equally applied to both the Bolt, and Double stopper!

Between the two types (BOLT & DOUBLE) the double rifle is far more reliable than any bolt rifle, the double being two, completely indipendant, rifles on the same stock. If you have a missfire on one barrel, it has no effect on the other barrel at all, unless you have commited the unforgivable sin, of haveing a single trigger on a double rifle. If a spring breaks, or a fireing pin breaks, on one side, you are still left with a single shot rifle. If any of these things happen to a bolt rifle, you are left with a 10 pound club! :eek:


As I said stopping rifles can be used for general hunting, and the double rifle is not hendered by a little longer range as most are prone to think. The sights on double rifles with flip-ups that go up to 3 or 400 yards, were not put there for decoration. If a double rifle is loaded with ammo that is properly worked up to shoot to regulation, then the rifle will shoot to all the sights maounted on it by the maker. That is the problem with most people who think double rifles are simply 15 yd rifles, they simply do not know anything about double rifles other than what they've read written by gun rag writers who know even less about them.

I have owned, and still own several double rifles, and bolt stoppers, as well as DGR hunting rifle of both types. I have take dangerous game at close quarters, with both types, and both actions. My choice every time, for a"GO INTO THE WEEDS" rifle will be a S/S double rifle. The reason you see so many Client hunters with bolt action rifles, is, because they are found in every K-Mart in the world, and though it isn't a good idea, you can buy a CHEAP bolt rifle chambered for a big chambering. Where, the price on an even intry level S/S double rifle will cost as much as your brand new Bass Boat, with all the bells & whistles!

I see, in this string, those reccomending a shotgun for stopping a lion, and one guy even states he might take on Cape buffalo with his SavRemChester slug, or buck shotgun! I can't think of a better recipe for a mauling! Lion have been known to stop close range 500 gr 458 Win Mag bullets in the their shoulder muscles in a adrinelin pumped-up charge! I would much rather have a medium bor rifle any day, that any shotgun. Even Leopard PHs rarely use a shotgun for follow-up on wounded leopard, and most of those mauled, or killed in the follow-up were useing shotguns.
That is a 120 lb thin skinned cat, and it would be suicide to follow a Buffalo into the thorn with a scattergun!

After reading this string, I'm sure there will be those who disagree with my take on this subject! That is fine, and this post is simply to place the string in an informed base for discussion. I'll be willing to cuss & discuss anything I've posted, and to offer further information as it comes to be asked, or cussed! :D

[Skyline]

Well I will not be one of the guys that disagrees with what you have said.

The problem is most guys do not realize the difference between a rifle and cartridge that are adequate for hunting a specific animal and a 'stopping' rifle and cartridge.

I think you got it about right.

;)

[pistolchamp]

Although I have only hunted in Africa under very controlled circumstances when providing meat for the "boys" at the ranch.

This September through the end of the year I will get a lot more of this type of experience and some "wild" experience too.

My partner owns a large ranch in central Tanzania where we have an office, so I get the odd chance to go afield.

I also have the luxury of being a dealer for H&H and owning several very nice H&H double rifles in 375 H&H, 416 Rigby and 470 N.E. So far the only one fired in anger is the 375 and the old (1931) girl performed perfectly. I have been shooting and practicing all summer with all three and hope to see how each works in the fall. It was a challenge to get the 375 to regulate, but, I finally found two very good handloads that work quite well. My partner owns a 458 Win Mag Holland double and he postively will NOT sell it. He promised to leave it to me in his will... now I just have to out live him!

Being a serious tradionalist, I shall shoot only double rifles in Africa and SXS shotguns as well. I carried the 375 H&H on a bear hunt in Canada and they all laughed at me. I didn't get a shot, but, they might have changed their minds if I had.

[grayghost]

Sounds like words of wisdom to me Mac. I would believe your advice over much of the hoopla I've read in magazines. There's nothing better than advice from those that walk the walk. I hope to take a Buff one day before long. Any recommendations for a rifle in the 375 to 458 offerings? I'd only be using it for Buff and most likely once in my life. Good hunting, grayghost

[pomoxis]

When I went to Zibabwe for cape buffalo I bought a .375 H&H because of all the traditional elements and the "one rifle" safari concept. If I had to start from square one and do it all over again if I was going to hunt dangerous game I would choose a .416 Remmington.

After haveing elephants at close range the .375 H&H seem a bit of a light weight. The .416 solid will handle all the smaller antelope and can reach out to a fair distance. If you have to to reach out farther you always have the option of stalking closer.

[grayghost]

I had heard about that video but never had the opportunity to view it until now. Thanks SuicidJky for posting the link. To my novice eyes, I saw several mistakes the hunter made. I think I would have taken the first shot opportunity when the Lion turned his head to the left. He exposed his right shoulder to what I viewed as a good shot. Would not breaking the Lion's right shoulder and penetrating the vitals been the correct shot? For sure, after the hunter took the shot, I would have given the Lion another shot in the left shoulder when he first raised up after being hit. That man is extremely lucky to be alive! If that Lion had hooked him solid, I suspect he would have biten him (the hunter) in the neck/face area, possibly killing him. Just goes to show; never underestimate the power of dangerous game. Cool video but it gives me the "heebee jeebee's." grayghost

[bsterns]

The fellow in the exciting video is Dr. Brian Gulley, an oral surgeon friend of mine from Corpus Christi. He has hunted numerous times in Africa after dangerous game and is a very brave soul. The game warden of the area asked the PH's help in harvesting a rogue lion that had dug out of a game preserve and was marauding the villager's livestock. Brian was eager to go shoot the lion. I told him I thought it was stupid to stalk the lion when he was obviously such a very dangerous animal. He could have shot him from the truck. He said that wouldn't be sporting so they shot him on foot as you saw. Brian was shooting a 338 win mag. He now carries only the 416 Rigby.

After Brian shot him, the lion charged and was shot at least twice through the thorax by the PHs from a side angle. It did not seem to faze the lion. Still pictures show the bullets exiting through the other side of the lion from the double barrel big guns of the PHs. There were two PH'swith Brian. As the lion ran and got fairly close to Brian, Brian shot him through his open mouth and only broke the jaw. Brian lunged to the left as the lion leaped and was able to escape with only a set of claw scratches to his left shoulder. Brian said the tail hooked him and spun him with such a strength that he almost could not break loose. He said the tail was incredibly strong. The momentum of the leap did not allow the lion to turn so Brian was able to move laterally and escaped with his life. The lion had been shot at least 3 fatal times before he lept and several times after he hit the ground and then he still ran off. The last shot did put him down. When the lion got up before the charge the PH told Brian he was coming for him and Brian asked him how he knew and he said that the lion had locked his gaze upon Brian and that meant that Brian was his target. I have only seen still pictures until now. Brian promised me a video but now I have seen it. It all happened much faster than I had imagined. The lions claws were worn almost off from digging and that also contributed to a lesser injury to the shoulder. Brian is extremely brave to stand and shoot with such coolness, also very lucky.

[OneShotBandit]

bsterns,
On another forum there were several posts that said that this was a "canned hunt" shot in Texas. Also that there is a fence in the background, etc., etc. It looked pretty real to me! Years ago I seen a video of a lion charge and the hunter was using a bolt action rifle, it amazed me how cool some of you DG hunters can be. I watched Doug McNeal and a PH shooting a charging elephant on OLN and it made me set on the edge of my chair! I've never been "tested (combat,etc.)" and a charging Big Five would test my nerve! Sounds machismo, but just my opinion. You all have my salute!

Virgil

[bsterns]

Virgil, that was definitely not a canned hunt. I got all my info from Brian. He was not hunting for lions at the time of the adventure. He was either after cape buffalo or elephant at the time. He goes to Africa about 3 times a year. Hunts only dangerous game. He has shot a number of buffalo and elephant. I personally am not experienced on the big 5 of Africa. I would like to go after them but I would not want to walk up on a big rogue lion eating. They were a little too bold for my thinking. I think Brian wanted to make a video and he got one. Maybe more than he bargained for. When I saw the pictures right after he got back I was truly shocked and amazed at them. It was one of the scariest stories I have heard. They don't have any canned hunts for African lion in Texas to my knowledge but they might and I am sure they will. I did see a Cheeta in Namibia that was in a high fenced area. He tried to get at one of the bushmen opening the gate to the adjoining area. He was pretty mean but I would not feel it was fair chase to shoot one in that setting.

[grayghost]

Hats off to him Bob, and it in no way looked like Texas (although some areas do look similar to SW TX) but the PH not only spoke with a South African accent, he was also speaking Afrikaan's to the Trackers. You can clearly hear this on the video. Worn claws and a broken jaw most likely saved the Doc from serious injury or even death, and yes, it all happened at the speed of light. My wife says she doesn't ever want me hunting Lions....OK....we'll see :D Next time you see the Dr., please send my best wishes and congrats on surviving and taking a magnificent Lion. One of the best one could hope to take anymore. Man, is he lucky to be with us! Good hunting, grayghost

[OneShotBandit]

I hope you all didn't think I was dissing the video. It is amazing how "hunters" judging other hunters on the Game they hunt. I have shooting/hunting friends in Chicago who think I'm horrible when I mention wanting to shoot a bull jumbo! Kinda reminds one of gunowners judging what is a "good" gun from a "bad" gun! Good hunting!

Virgil

[bsterns]

Virgil, I think the lion must have dug into a fenced livestock area. That is what made the situation was so serious and potentially deady. The lion was trapped and the hunters rushed toward him when he was wounded and he had nowhere to run because of that fence. In the video you can see the bloody area on the lions chest caused by one or two of the bullets as he leaped through the air in slow motion. Those animals are tough. That is one tough way to get an adrenaline rush.

[Andy L]

I see several good opportunities for someone to get shot in that video. Including the "hunter" who drops the rifle (338 Win Mag?), most likely loaded with safety off, lands with the barrel facing him as he falls.

Still makes me curious as to the high fence in the background. Seems that lion is trying to get away until cornered.

Glad someone knows this guy cause its got spam hunt written all over it.....

JMHO

Andy

[Rapier]

I just finished my DG rifle, so it is obviously my choice.

The rifle is a custom, built on a Montana Rifle Co 1999 controlled feed action with a 25 inch non ported heavy barrel. The chambering is 458 Lott. The stock is Bastogne walnut with double stainless steel cross bolts and a 7 inch 3/8 threaded steel rod, glassed solid into the wrist. The action and triggerguard are 100% glass bedded. The bullets I like so far are the 400 grain Hornady flat nose. They do about 2550 fps and shoot into 1 inch at 100. The rifle is heavy by design. I regestered the express sights with 500 grain solids in a factory duplication load at 2250 fps.

The scope is a 1.5x6 Hakko with 4 inch eye relief, euro post with lit red point.

Just before I left for Africa in May, I went over to a friends house to look over his trophy room. In the middle of the floor he had a big male lion, full mount, standing over a zebra full mount. It is amazing how big a lion is, when you get up real close. The size of the shoulders and front legs are very impressive.
Ed

[grayghost]

When's your next hunt? I will return to SA next year, but plan on a DG hunt the following year. The last Lion I mounted (when I was in the Taxidermy biz) was the largest our shop ever produced. It measured 10.5 feet from nose to tip of tail. We mounted it leaping onto a Zebra. Believe it or not, the Zebra was the most trouble to mount. Short hair and several thousand stitches to cover up. The only form that fit its measurements was a standing, at ease Zebra. We had to cut it all apart, reassemble and do a lot of extra work. Our client was very happy however. Aside from our fee, he gave me a new Ithaca Supreme 10 ga semi-auto. Said it was too heavy for him to swing on ducks. I agreed and wound up selling it. Good hunting, grayghost

[Rapier]

Grayghost,
In 2007 I will end up in South America, I have committed to go to Paraguay on a 10-day pigeon and doves shoot. Their fall to winter season is our summer and makes a nice break from the heat. Might do a duck and quail south of the border in December.

I may return to Africa in 2008, depending on how everything works out. In December, the back surgery (2 lumbar disks and a lumbar tumor) will be two years on the mend. The trip in May was actually a bit too much, too soon, on the back. The long bumpy plane ride on the return trip set me back aways in the recovery schedule. So I will keep my plane rides down to 6-8 hours for awhile.
Ed :)

[grayghost]

That's something I would love to do; duck hunt in S. America or Mexico. I ran into Shane Smith at the TN Deer Classic a few weeks ago and he is arranging Duck, Goose and upland birds in S. America. Hunt is kinda pricey, total cost ending up at around $7K. But looking at his pics, no doubt there are fantastic bird opportunitys down there. I just got off the phone with my travel agent (Doug Gray @ Gracy Travel in San Antonio, TX) and he advised that if I go back to S Africa by May 31st, we would get the mid season rate and save about $300 over leaving June 1st or later. Looks like we're going to go back in late May and get some duck/goose hunting in before we do our big game hunting. I can use my airmiles to cover our domestic flight, so that will save another $300. I wish you a speedy recovery with your back. That has to be one of the worse pains to deal with. I'd love to see some pics and hear all about your trip to Paraguay. And let me know if you get into a good duck area in Mexico. Good hunting, grayghost

[MacD37]

The film you've just seen, has been around for some time, and is well known to African hunters!

It was a Republic of South Africa, lion hunt, and by law in RSA all land that contains dangerous game has to be behind electrified fencing, as this was! The lion was against the electric fence, that looks almost like fish net,with very thin poles, when the first shot was fired, and he and couldn't get farther away from the shooters. The only shot that was simply POOR SHOOTING was the first one off the sticks, by the client hunter. The shots at the chargeing lion were about as good as it gets with a lion in full charge!

An African lion is about the hardest thing to stop on this planet, in a charge. He can cover 50 yds in 3.5 seconds,from a standing start. Top that off by the fact that, once he cahrges, the only shot that will nail him for good is a CNS (cernteral Nerveous System) shot, and that is not likely with a bright orange ball of fire coming at you like a fast ball from Nolin Ryan! :D

The next thing to take into consideration is, the average man standing with rifle at shoulder hight is starting a bullet from 2 feet above the hight of the lion, and the angle is changeing all the time for the lead that must be taken to hit the lion. The bad thing is you have to aim at the ground in front of the lion, to hit him if he is charging you. This is hard to do when looking at a lion at the same time, and trying not to crap your pants! None of the shots at the charge were lead properly, as all shots from these guys were all late, hitting behind the lion! The only shots that hit this lion was the first one, and the last two from the PH, when the lion was running away, and the last one from the client, after he was down. All others missed. Someone said there was a double rifle in the hands of the PH, and that is not the case, these guys were all armed with bolt rifles. If you will view thw film again you will see there were only three shots fired while the lion was on his way in, one from each of three people! For all parctical purposes, these guys may as well have been shooting single shot during the charge, because they only got one shot each! Lions are fast, and bolt actions are slow! 3.5 seconds doesn't give you time to do a lot of shooting. ;)

Eventhough these RSA lion hunts are behind fence, the fence is not between the shooter and the lion, and a zoo lion will kill you just as dead as a wild lion, and most of these places in RSA are, in the thousands of acres, some as many as 1,000,000 acres! That's a pretty big CAN! Still the lions killed in RSA cannot be placed in the record books, because of the proliferation of canned lion hunts there! :rolleyes:

[bsterns]

Mac, that was a good description of a charging lion and what happens. I thought the PH had a double barrel because in the slow motion portion of the tape there are two successive puffs of smoke from the rifles and they appeared to be from that one PH in the picture. Upon closer examination, one of the puffs of smoke was from Dr. Gulley's gun at close range. That one broke the lions jaw according to Brian. If you look real close you can see the bullet pass through the lion's chest about 3 or 4 inches behind the right shoulder from the PH's shot. You have to stop the film frame for frame. As the lion is passing Brian you can see the bloody spot on the chest increase in size. You have to see the slow motion several time to see the force of the tail hook of the lion, the bloody spot grow, and count the bullets fired. The other PH shot at least once also and the old lion got up and ran. I watch it over and over and nothing varies from what he told me. If it were a fish story I might be skeptical.;)

[bsterns]

" Do not corner something that you know is meaner than you!"