Schindlers list

[Classicvette63]

All the folks who signed up to support Terri Schiavo can expect phonecalls from telemarketers in the very near future. That is because Terri's parents have sold that list to a telemarketing company. :rolleyes: Like the parents didn't act like scumbags throughout the whole ordeal, now this. Kinda serves those holier than thou, good for nothing busy bodies right. Maybe now the spammers will keep them busy enough to mind their own business. I guess the whole thing with Terri was all about money, but the greedy party isn't who some people thought it was.

[jojo]

Not to start anything, but I support Mike. I think that man got fried by the press, the politicians, and the Schindlers. I think its wrong he is getting tried in the court of public opinion. I am a Republican and I think Bush and congress went too far.

[fabsroman]

Classic,

Can you enlighten me about how the Schindler's were greedy? Now, I am not saying you are right or wrong, I am just trying to find out all the facts I can. I am in the middle of the road on this one. I truly think Michael Schiavo is a POS, but I don't exactly know what the parents' motive in this whole thing was. At the end of the day, I think it was just two groups of people that were so bitter with each other that they wanted their way regardless. Sad thing it that the judiciary and Terri had to be stuck in the middle. Now, if Schiavo had said, "Listen, I don't want a single penny and I will donate it all to the charity of your choise Mr. & Mrs. Schindler, possibly the Eating Disorder Charity of Florida", then this whole thing might have been avoided. I bet he doesn't donate the $40,000 or $50,000 that he gets from the trust and I bet both he and the parents write books about this. They should be shot if they do it for financial gain instead of telling their side of the story, and anybody that buys the book should be shot.

I also think that Schiavo must be truly evil to tell the Schindlers that he is cremating the body, taking the ashes somewhere, and throwing them to the wind and he is not disclosing the place and he is not allowing the Schindlers to be there. First off, Catholicism requires that a person be buried, but I guess religion doesn't matter in this one.

A lot of people have heated feelings about this whole matter without knowing everything. I could probably write my own book on this mess. Funny thing is that I have had several clients call me about estate planning recently and before this I couldn't get anybody to do it. I was even going to send out a newsletter about the need to do some death planning for those of us that are married, and especially for those of us that have children, but now I am going to hold off on it because attorneys are sending out newsletters left and right about this issue because of the interest raised by Terri Schiavo. I don't want to look like one of those blood suckers.

[Rocky Raab]

I'm with you, Fabs. NOBODY who got their info from the news media or even talk radio knows all the details behind that ordeal.

So I'm not judging any of them.

It was a damn shame no matter who was the jerk. Even if the root cause was her own fault (or nobody's fault), the way she ended up was pitiful. And by that I mean "deserving of pity" and nothing else.

[M.T. Pockets]

I'm a husband and the father of a daughter. It is impossible to know how one would feel in either of their positions unless you were them. I think surviving the way she was is far worse than death, but if it were my daughter I can't say I'd still feel that way. The tragedy is that it became such a public affair.

Any issue that can get G.W. Bush and Jesse Jackson on the same side is WAY beyond something I'll ever figure out.

[Skinny Shooter]

Yep, I don't have all the facts either but I can comment on what I heard come form the mouth of the husband.

A scumbag is someone who has an affair with another woman and then brags about it on Larry King Live and how proud he is of the children he fathered and of his fiance' while his wife lies in a hospice.
If he really wanted to get on with his life, then divorce his wife and move on...

The court system just starved a woman to death and in my book that is murder. Folks we don't want to get started down the road.

Classic, can you share a link about the telemarketers?

[Dale]

Here is a news story about it.

CNN Story (http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/schindlers.list/?section=cnn_latest)

[TreeDoc]

Ditto, Skinny!

[Purebred Redneck]

I can understand both sides.

What it came down to -
The parents wanted to keep their daughter alive

Mike wanted to get married to another woman and live a normal life again. You can not get married while you're still married...
In addition, I would not want to give half of everything I had for a divorce.

[fabsroman]

He wouldn't have had to give half of everything he owned for a divorce. What he would have had to give up was his right to anything in Terry's estate should he divorce her (i.e., a right to the million dollar trust). He would also have had to give up his position as Terri's guardian because the guardian would have to work out the divorce issue. I am sure that the Schindlers would have let him keep all of the marital property in lieu of getting any share of the trust money. The best way this could have gone down to find out everybodies motive would have been for Michael to ask for a divorce two or three years after the malpractice settlement, have the Schindlers okay the divorce, and then see what the Schindlers would have done with Terri given that they would inherit the million dollars upon Terri's passing.

Again, there are a lot of facts missing in this one and I don't know that anybody can put together all the facts over the 15 years, not even the Schindlers and Schiavo.

I do encourage everybody to prepare the necessary documents so that their loved ones will be spared any hardship should something tragic happen. Key word is tragic because none of us ever plan on dying. I had two 30 something clients with children almost pass away, one from a car accident and the other from a rare nervous system disease, and neither of them had the proper documents in place. That was my reason for sending the newletter out. Even though this is a terrible thing that happened to Terri, hopefully it will spur some public awareness on this issue.

[Classicvette63]

Michael Schiavo wasn't after money. If he was, he would have taken the 10 million offered to turn over custody of Terri. The parents were greedy by accepting money for the list of supporters. If a telemarketer offered you money for the list of people who attended a loved ones viewing/funeral, what would you say? I bet the vast majority would tell them to take a flying leap. Besides this "trust" is pretty much empty from medical care and legal fees so I don't know how Michael is going to get rich off of that.

Although it may have been spiteful, I can't blame Michael for not having the schindlers at the funeral. After all the low down dirty crap they pulled and said about him, serves them right. They did more flip flopping than klinton.

Nobody wants to see a loved one pass, especially ones children, but sometimes things happen. Some people say that a dog wouldn't be treated as poorly as Terri. That is true. If you had a dog in that condition, you'd give it an injection and it would be over. The holy rolling busybodies have seen to it that people must suffer, where as a dog wouldn't.:rolleyes:

Lest people think I don't know what I'm talking about, I've been in a similar situation. There weren't and I can gaurantee there wouldn't be a load of protesters out front causing a ruckus.

[fabsroman]

Classic,

This is the first I have heard about the 10 million dollar offer to turn Terri over. Where did you hear this from, and can you point me in the direction of the source. I am really trying to get to know as much about this as possible for discussions sake.

Let's also leave the dog comparison out of this because I can take my dog outside and shoot him for no reason at all, which I would never do, even if he is healthy. Try that with a human being and you will most likely end up in jail. I have also seen some dogs that have been treated very poorly and others that have been beaten silly.

[Valigator]

This is one issue with no winners and no correct side....this country has so many important issues...for the President to come back from Crawford early and call a session on Palm Sunday...really pissed me off.......I still cant get over that one....I would like to take away all the emotion and really know what was what on this one......I am not sure any of us will know.....

[fabsroman]

Exactly!!!!!! We will never know everything about this.

Of course, that is until we meet Terri in heaven. Then we can ask her what her wishes were. Of course, if she wanted to be left alive, we probably won't be seeing Michael up there with us.

My feeling is that Michael had some alterior motive behind everything because as I understand it, he never mentioned that her wish was not to be kept alive through artificial means until after the million dollar settlement. What I don't understand is how that feeding tube was inserted in the first place if he was her guardian and knew her wishes. Then again, maybe it was inserted before he was actually appointed the guardian.

Like I said, to sort through 15 years of evidence, most of which we have is distorted in some manner, makes this thing really tough.

[Valigator]

Why do we keep dancin around this...if it were you...would you have wanted to live the life she has lived for the last 15 years...pull the plug and be done with it....

[foto]

Can't understand everyones support for killing her. No one knows what she would have wanted. The husbands claim that he knew she would have wanted to die came up 7 years after the accident. How come he didn't say anything earlier?

The real issue here is that a judge decided that someone's life wasn't worth living so he ordered her to be killed. I have a friend who had a stroke that lives a life not much better than hers. Should a judge be allowed to kill him? Who decides that? My friend needs someone to help him eat which is not much different than a feeding tube. Should a judge be allowed to order that everyone stops feeding him, cuz his no good wife & kids wants him dead already. ( I bought him a dvd player and went back a month later and it was in his college age son's room, a real little bast***Wife moved out over 5 years ago but still hasn't divorced him and he doesn't have the heart for it.)

This wasn't the same as stopping a ventilator or withholding medicine in the case where they were suffering from a fatal illness. This was a healthy person who could have lived for untold years and who knows what may have happened in the future.

Also in those cases where fatal illnesses are involved they usually put the person on a morphine drip and they depart while in lala land. Here they starved a person who may have been able to feel something without any pain medication because if they did give her pain medication it would have meant that she was able to feel and that wouldhave defeated their arguments of brain death.

In this case considering that noone knew what she wanted and there was a possibility that she was aware at some level and might improve you err on the side of caution and let her live. You don't try and imagine what she wanted since we all imagine a little differently. No court should have the power to kill someone because they don't feel their life is worth living. They did not let her die which I might not have such a problem with, but actively sought to kill her which I do have a problem with. IMHO Take care all.

[Valigator]

Just remember the family is what brought this to blows not Terri....I doubt very much being a woman that she would have wanted what her parents made her endure.....

[foto]

"I doubt very much being a woman that she would have wanted what her parents made her endure....."

I guess thats my issue, that little bit of doubt you have. If a judge is going to order to have someone killed, there shouldn't be any doubt, at least not the amount that we witnesed in this case. Without clear and convincing evidence of the person's wishes you err on the side of caution.

Your posts seem to infer that she was aware and suffering in her vegetative state and it was a merciful thing to kill her but that is not what they claimed and not why the court ordered her to be killed. I understand you but that isn't the reason for her death which is why we have the uproar.

If the court said we find based upon the evidence and testimony that it was her wish to die if in this state and gave her a morphine drip and took out the tube, that would have been fine.

If the court said We dont' know what she would want to do so we will leave her alone with her feeding tube, that would have been fine.

But what the court really did here was tell us -We are not sure what she wanted so we will determine whether her life is worth living. they then deterrmined that it wasn't and ordered her to be killed. It seems even the court didn't place too much value on the husband's testimony.Thats why they ordered so many tests to determine her mental state and viewed so many hours of video and had all the experts testify as to her condition, so the court could justify its actions. Thats why I have a problem with it. Talk about an activist court, if you don't provide the evidence it needs to kill someone, don't worry, it will find it all by itself. Take care.

(no more rants from me on this topic, gotta get ready for opening day of trout season this saturday)

[fabsroman]

Foto,

That viewpoint is pretty good and I don't think I have looked at it quite from that angle. I have been sliding from one side to another on this whole issue. At first, I was all for pulling the feeding tube. However, I then decided against it. Now, I have absolutely no clue where I stand on this issue because I think I am missing 99% of the facts.

I thought she was on a morphine drip. If she wasn't, I think that is completely wrong. My problem is that we don't really know what a person in a vegetative state can and cannot feel because I do not think anybody has ever come around from it. Hence, the hospice center should have erred on the side of caution and provided the morphine drip. I cannot imagine that the Court's Order would have stated that no morphine drop be provided. That is way out of line for the Court to decide.

I kind of agree with you about the Court relying on experts. However, they were needed to a certain degree. They were needed initially to show that Terri needed a guardian appointed for her. As far as the rest of the issue is concerned, I would guess that both sides, the Schindlers and Schiavo would have brought medical experts to testify in their case. Judge probably didn't believe any of them because they get paid from the side that they are testifying for, so he appointed a court medical expert that would be paid by the court to ensure that he/she is unbiased. This was a tough decision for the Court and I am sure there were a million things on the Judge's mind.

One thing that has to be considered is the public policy aspect on this whole thing, and that was my initial reason for pulling the feeding tube. How many people every year could be kept alive through artificial means? Probably a lot. How many of them stand a chance of pulling through? Probably very little if any. So, what happens if they do not have a Living Will or Advance Health Care Directive? Do we just keep them on life support forever to see if science will ever come up with a cure? If so, who is going to foot that bill? Everybody is already complaining about taxes and I know way too many people that are cheating on their taxes. Could you imagine that cost? Should we have court proceedings on every one to see what the family members think. I doubt all the family members would be for pulling the plug, for lack of a better term. So, how much of the Court system's time do we take up with this? Remember, the Court system is also funded by tax dollars.

Quite honestly, I think that every state in the union should pass a law stating that if a person has no Living Will or Advance Health Care Directive in place and they do not have the mental capacity to make medical decisions for themselves, it is presumed that they would favor death over artificial life support if they are in a vegetative state, coma, or suffering from a terminal illness. This would cause people to get those documents drafted if they have a wish to be kept alive under those circumstances.

This is a tough subject and a tough case.

As far as your friend is concerned, I cannot stand women and children that are like that. The only reason she is staying married to him is so that she can get everything when he passes away instead of only getting half now. The longer I live, the sicker I get of people.

[Slim-Zippy]

I don't know all the facts and I doubt anyone will ever be able to sort it out. There is enough smoke around Micheal Shaivo that if I was the woman married to him now, I would be looking for some place to get away from him. But the slander and lies that can get started in a case like this can make decent people appear to be evil and evil people appear to be angels.

The only truth I know about the whole ordeal is that Terry Shiavo was used by a lot of people and will be continued to be used even though she is dead. The whole situation stinks of all the crud our society has become infected with. I hope Terry is living with dignity and grace now.

There are modern ways to check for brain activity, a PET scan is one way, and they were never done with Terry. These tests can be very conslusive as to cognitive avtivity of the brain. It "appears" that Micheal didn't want anyone to know if there was brain activity. But again, maybe maybe a doctor gave some bad advice or new that she was brain dead without a test. Some Doctors are sure not above playing God for for their own selfish reasons.

I would not want to be tortured as Terry was during the last years of her life. From what "information" I have heard she lived in a dreadful isolation with as little medical care and outside stimulation as legally possible.

God bless Terry Schaivo. I beleive she desrves it.
John

[Classicvette63]

Fabs, I heard about the 10 mil offer on msnbc. My point about the dog was, if you had a sick dog you would not think twice about ending it's suffering. Now if you shot a perfectly fine dog, that might get you in trouble. Either way, my point wasn't about committing a crime or a potential crime.

I just really didn't like all of the "spin" coming from the schindlers. When the feeding tube was removed they complained that she was suffering because morphine wasn't being administered. Once they started giving morphine, the schidlers claimed that the hospice was going to OD Terri to kill her. Then they claimed that Michael wanted Terri silenced because he beat her. If they truly had suspicions of that, they should have brought that little tid bit up 15 years ago, not after the tube was removed. Clearly it was just a mean vicious ploy aimed at slandering Michael and getting sympathy on thier side.

It was a sorry episode made worse by politics, greed, grandstanding, vindictiveness and hurt feelings.

[fabsroman]

"It was a sorry episode made worse by politics, greed, grandstanding, vindictiveness, and hurt feelings."

No disagreement with you there Classic. I think there is enough ammo on both sides to pick whichever side you want and find reason for it. If the parents thought that Michael was beating her and that was the reason for her condition, why didn't they object to his being appointed as the guardian?

There are many questions and the answers are fleeting and almost always changing.

[8X56MS]

I think the parents acted in a misguided manner from the beginning. Their efforts towards condeming Terri to a forced existance as a vegetable was a despicable act. I have supported Michael all the way on this.
Back in 1990, my family went through much the same ordeal as the Schiavos. The difference though, was that we all agreed that my Dad would not have wanted to be kept alive, and unconscious. Once the Neuro specialist, and the other members of the Medical consultant team agreed that there was no recovery, we ended it.
The only real surprise for me in all this though, was the right wing folks, who decry any 'gumment' interference in their lives, embracing 'big brother' to step in, and counteract the wishes of the wife and husband.
I consider myself very conservative, but on this issue, I really did, and continue to feel, that my President, my Governor, and many others, far exceeded their authority, and their positions.
I am NOT a big fan of the courts, but in this case, justice was, indeed, done.