Just a thought

[Valigator]

I have been reading and hearing more and more about the Presidents plan to allow work visa's for illegals, due to the fact many American business's depend on these workers either seasonally or to keep their prices competitive.....Ok I am following that......but as I was pondering this...why cant we use inmates that are presently incarcerated for non-violent offenses to do this same work? Many times these inmates have to contibute to a victims reparation fund apon release. I mean think about it....a majority of any particular states fund goes to its Corrections budget....why dont we utilize the work force we have? Hey just a thought.

[fabsroman]

First off, I do not believe you can force an inmate to work. The question is how many are actually willing to work.

The next question is how many business owners really want to hire inmates to make their products. Could you imagine if it got out that a company was using inmates to manufacture its goods or provide services. That would definitely have a negative impact on customer perception of the business.

[Nulle]

I work alot with inmates and DOC kids and they have done a great job for me and as a matter of fact I had one DOC girl work as Shelter Tech two months while my regular gal was out for back surgery and she did a fine job and gave her a chance at starting a new and better life.

[wrenchman]

i think it is a great idea many of your non violent offender are first timers and could youse a hand so they wont be back.

[Valigator]

I could swallow an inmate making my products and keeping my dollars on home turf alot easier than opening borders, handing out drivers licenses and pumping out babies in the emergency rooms....what do you mean you cant force an inmate to work? If these business's are willing to pay 5-10 bucks hour for illegals, I would venture inmates would jump on those jobs...plus bank it for release....

[fabsroman]

Exactly what I said, you cannot force inmates to work. As far as illegals getting $10 an hour to work, that is a stretch. Maybe some do, but not most. I have a granite counter top client that pays his guys anywhere between $400 to $600 a week and these guys work 6 days a week and about 50 hours a week. All of them are barely legal. Now, that translates to around $10 an hour, but they all have pretty decent skills in fabricating granite counter tops.

Last I checked, most "first time offenders" are not in jail because they get probation or a suspended sentence. I think we are talking about "first time in-jailers."

As far as rumors getting out, do you think it will make the headlines if a company hires a bunch of illegals or if a company hires a bunch of criminals from a newly created program to give criminals a second chance?

This program would have to be sold to the American public and the borders closed before any big company in the US would agree to participate in the program. Reputations are very important. Look at how Ford's reputation was tarnished by the Firestone tire incident. Good reputations in the business world take a lot of effort to create and maintain, but are easy to lose. If you are the CEO of Ford or any other big company, do you want to take such a chance? Not that Ford would hire illegals in the first place.

Maybe the program would fly with mom and pop stores, but isn't there already something called a work release program? I know of a guy that was sentenced to 10 months in jail on his 4th DWI offense. However, he was granted work release for 6 of the 10 months.

Also, who is to say that these "first time criminals" didn't have a job before they went to jail. I know a guy that just did 15 days in jail for driving on a suspended license. In essence, it was actually a violation of probation issue because he got caught a second time driving on suspended. He had a job painting cars where he was making close to $100,000 a year. If he were spending more than 12 days in jail I bet he would be asking for work release so that he could go back to painting cars and making more than $10 an hour.

Solutions aren't always as simple as they seem.

As far as pumping out babies in the emergency room, I know of plenty of welfare recipients that are doing just that and they are not immigrants or illegals.

Quite honestly, I am all for closing the borders, affordable health care, less smog, less traffic, less crime, more jobs, a higher standard of living, better health care, less law suits, les stringent gun laws, better environmental protection, etc., but solutions to these wants aren't always simple.

[denton]

There was a recent experiment with letting inmates staff call centers. It gives them meaningful work to do, while keeping them inside. No idea how it worked out, but an interesting step toward Valigator's suggestion.

[gregarat]

Sounds good to me..

We already have "work relese programs" for inmates.

Several corection oficers I know tell me the inmates who participate in work relese, are the inmates who want to be productive members of society.

I think that the inmates who want in on these programs should also atend classes for a G.E.D., or some other form of education. I mean we spend tons of money to have these guys who lift weights, and learn to be better criminals. Why cant we redirect this cash into something that is helpfull for everyone?


As to the employers who dont hire non violent cons. I think thats plain DISCRIMINATION. Too bad you cant prove the employer is discriminating. I have famly members who made a very bad decision 10+ years ago who cant get a McDonalds job.

I dont wana sound live a bleeding heart Lib, but I would rather hire my briliant American cousin who knocked someone out in 92. Over someone who cannot speak English, has NO education, and who knows what they did where they came from?


Yeah... use imigrants to do the work we are too good for!:rolleyes: . Isnt that why we have the Irish?

[BILLY D.]

HI VAL

THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH YOUR THOUGHT IS IT MAKES PERFECT SENSE. BUT THAT DOESN'T WASH NOWADAYS.

GREG HAS SOME GOOD IDEAS ALSO.

OH. AND GREG THE IRISH WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY. THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON THE BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS OF BLACKS, POLES, ITALIANS, GERMANS, CHINESE, JAPANESE ETC. IT WAS ONE OF THOSE DEALS, IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR PLIGHT WORK YOURSELF INTO SOMETHING BETTER.

[fabsroman]

Yep, my parents would be the Italians that worked themselves into something better.

As far as discriminating against a person based upon their criminal background, that is completely allowed. Nothing wrong with that.

I also want to point out that it is illegal to hire anybody without a work visa/green card.

Maybe the work release program just has to be publicized a little more so that employers know about.

As far as not knowing the criminal record of immigrants, I completely agree with that. I have a client from El Salvador that has been in this country for 11 years. He is 33 years old right now and he started out in California. From California he moved to Maryland 7 years ago. His criminal record doesn't look bad in Maryland, but he did tell me that he got into trouble with the law 4 years ago regarding a domestic dispute with his wife. So far, I have represented him in 2 criminal matters, he was represented by a different attorney right before me on a DWI, and I have another matter coming up with him. At first, he lied to me about the domestic charge, but when I told him that I was going to pull his criminal record to show the judge what a good guy he is, he fessed up. I didn't pull his record in California, but at the last trial/hearing where the judge gave him a PBJ, the judge actually swore him in and asked him about his criminal record from California and El Salvador. Of course, my client said that he has never been in trouble until this rash of incidents, not necessarily using those words. Somehow, I do not believe him.

Again, solving these types of problems isn't easy.

[TreeDoc]

I have a granite counter top client that pays his guys anywhere between $400 to $600 a week and these guys work 6 days a week and about 50 hours a week. All of them are barely legal.

Isn't that like being just a "little bit" or "barely" pregnant? :D

As to the employers who dont hire non violent cons. I think thats plain DISCRIMINATION. Too bad you cant prove the employer is discriminating. I have famly members who made a very bad decision 10+ years ago who cant get a McDonalds job.

So as an employer which I am, should I be forced to hire a CPA who was convicted of Embezzlement or a felon convicted of Burglary? :confused: Here in California one of the release programs for convicts is wildland firefighting. These guys are trained to do very similar work to what my business does. I get lots of these guy wishing to submit applications for employment. A few are likely reformed, the majority are not, in fact many I have interviewed are just revolving door criminals looking for a quick job to satisfy their parole officers that they are trying to become normal citizens which I'll tell you is far from the case! You would never see me having a one on one with these guys unless I packing heat. Some of these guys are real scary and you never know how they would react when you turn them down for employment. The liberal lawyers have fixed it for them to some degree as legally I can ask them if they have been convicted of a felony but I cannot ask them what it was they did, if I do I would have a law suit from the Labor Board slapped on me like you wouldn't believe so why the hell should I even take that chance?

Ever read the Grapes of Wrath by Steinbeck? There's your answer to our labor force with a twist. We have millions on the roll for Welfare Programs. Most are able and fit to work but choose not to because it is easier to stay at home and make babies and collect food stamps, etc.. I say if they wan't to participate in AFDC, Welfare, or any other program that offers assistance then the choose from from a list of jobs otherwise under the bridges and overpasses you go!

[multibeard]

I live in an agricultural area, fruit, asparagus, and various other rather labor intensive products.

We have a great influx of migrants of Mexican decent, US citizens, legals, and illegals from Mexico. Every one says that we have to have them to do the job.

If EVERYONE that did that work got the benifits they get that might not be true. There are millions of workers that are paid minimum wage with no benifits what so ever.

The field workers here get "FREE" heathcare, childcare, food stamps and housing to name a few.

What benifits would I get if I did the same job. ------NOTHING----

Give every one the same benifits and maybe we wouldn't have to be dependant on the Migrants

[gregarat]

OH. AND GREG THE IRISH WEREN'T THE ONLY ONES TO FALL INTO THAT CATEGORY. THIS COUNTRY WAS BUILT ON THE BLOOD, SWEAT AND TEARS OF BLACKS, POLES, ITALIANS, GERMANS, CHINESE, JAPANESE ETC. IT WAS ONE OF THOSE DEALS, IF YOU DON'T LIKE YOUR PLIGHT WORK YOURSELF INTO SOMETHING BETTER.
Your right.

[Nulle]

Well I paid my 17 yr old fill in Shelter Tech $10 an hour and she also worked at a fast food place.
I have a waiting list of guys in County that want to help do things for me and the outside employers pay very well to these folks, meaning they get paid same as a non-jail person.
We don't take abvantage of them so we can make an extra buck in these parts.

[fabsroman]

Nulle,

I think you live in a different part of the world than TD and I, and I am not saying that to be offensive. It is tough to put all criminals into a specific category or to even lump people together.

TD,

Can't you do a background check on these guys without getting into trouble? I cannot believe that you have to hire people without knowing what there rap sheet looks like.

I could add some more on this thread, but it is too late right now and I am too tired. I'll check it again in the morning and add another 2 cents worth if there is anything else posted.

[Valigator]

You know in my book, some things dont have to be as difficult as people like to make them....no easy solutions uh? well common sense has and always will be the best way....we have a pool of labor that is being under utilized right under our noses...cant force them to work? who said? and who says even if thats the case it has to stay that way? Employers want to pay minimum wage? OK seems thats still more money than the inmates are getting now...most work release programs at least here in Florida has the state as the employer, parks, management areas etc...lets not digress..lately I have watched programs where companies want and need the lessor paid employees to stay in business...because of outsourcing etc...my suggestion is to go to the well we already have and make it pay for all of us...a hundred years ago immigrants were the backbone of our society...today they are crippleing us with the burden of accomodating their culture...go back to basics...go back to common sense....because what we have isnt working......

[Nulle]

Your so right we do live in a different part of the country and there is really no lumping on this. You pick the ones that want to work and go with it and on the same area you Pay them the going rate for the work they do !
I knew a guy that would get DOC kids to work for him and then he would pay them **** and work the heck out of them and pay them very little. He was no better in my book then the kids working for him. Slave Farm !
In different areas they do have work farms where these people are required to work for the jail. I don't think we have that in SD.
Work release in my state is generally when they already have a job at hand and instead of losing it they are allowed to get out.
The ones I deal with are the folks that don't have a prior job and would like to do something with their life. The ones that are just out to be out are weeded out and I send them back and they know that from the start.

[fabsroman]

Nulle,

I think what you are doing is great. Work release in Maryland is the same as it is in South Dakota and different from Florida. Those with jobs when they go in get to go to work and that is about it. For the most part it is house arrest with the ability to work during the day.

The problem with immigrant labor is that a lot of employers get away with paying them less than minimum wage. My granite client's payroll is estimated to be $210,000 for this year. If he could get away with paying half of what he pays by paying illegals, don't you think he would want to save $105,000? Of course, it is illegal to hire illegal aliens, but a lot of other things are illegal and business owners try to get away with them anyway. It is illegal to claim tax deductions on a Schedule C when the expenses are personal expenses, but I see plenty of people doing it and/or trying to do it.



TD,

As far as being barely legal, there is always that grey area where one side might think it is legal and the other side thinks it is illegal. That is about where these guys fabricating granite fall.

[Hawkeye6]

Prisoner Labor? Isn't that one of the things they do in China?

[ghost stalker]

yeh, wouldn't want to make someone who did something wrong pay for thier acts by doing something positive for the ones they hurt! or actually being penalized for a crime...that would be nuts we should give them a chance to get a free education, nothing to start with when they get out or a free ckeck from the tax payers. lets give some people who illegally got onto this continent a free pass to work bacause we don't want to step on the CON's toes and make him upset.........wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

everyone says that the punishments are not harsh enough as it is. put the cons to work and give them a real chance at working for a buck and a futur rather than sitting on thier asses making up frivilus lawsuits that just back-up the system.


just a lil ranting but i feel the crooks got it too easy. they should discuraged rather than incouraged. blah blah blah

[Valigator]

Boy oh Boy do I love this website....stir the pot and the fire just burns........someone made the comment they didnt want an enbezzler on the payroll, another didnt think inmates would be hired...look the jobs I am talking about and the jobs you hear the most about needing cheap labor are not in the main office...OK...they are in agriculture....they are in the seafood business...peeling crab....they are in dry cleaning ....I can go on and on....they need this labor force because so called American citizens are not gonna work for 5-6-7-8-and in some areas 10 bucks an hour.....benefits....shoot I have worked in some of the highest end employers in Ft. Lauderdale and I am spending more and more on my own benefits, unless I am sucking them up in the public service industry....which I have never been envolved in....the biggest nut in my state is Department of Corrections....not all inmates are serial killers....but sending them back in mainstream for 36 cents an hour on public property is ludicrous...versus 5 dollars an hour on an illegal who disappears into society within 6 months...smuggles his family in...and sucks our healthcare to sheads...uninsured...being paid cash every week because there is no paper trail...and sucking the life blood out of the rest of us....look I am not immigrant bashing....I am illegal alien bashing.....the solution is under our noses...and nobody sees it....Inmates need to pay back what they suck up...either in restitution....parole or supervision payments...and being released back into our society with 50 bucks and a bus ticket seems to be a revolving door for our system....give them the ability to save for release...maybe they wont come back to haunt us in 10 months...which seems to be the standard reoffending time...

[fabsroman]

Val,

Do you think these guys would be in jail if they really wanted to work. Most of the non-violent offenders are in jail because they do not want to work. I have a client that quit her job making $20,000 a year, up from the previous year's pay of $14,000, just because there were no benefits and she had to do too much work. Right now, she is unemployed, on food stamps, and receiving unemployment because she had her boss write her a letter saying that he was laying her off because he could not afford her. She is the type of person that just does not want to work.

My motto is that there is always a job available doing something if you want to work. However, a lot of people do not want to work for less than a certain amount and others do not want to do certain jobs.

That is why manual labor jobs get paid a good amount of money. Nobody wants to do them anymore. The theme in the US is college education and even post college education. Those graduates do not want to do manual labor. When I got out of undergrad, the starting salary for an accountant with the then Big 6 was $30,000. Well, my brother had been earning about $85,000 to $100,000 painting cars since he was 18 years old. I was 22 when I graduated, which meant that he was already $400,000 ahead of me before I even started working. Luckily, I didn't have to pay for college myself, or I would have really been in the hole.

[Valigator]

We are really not on the same page here...if I was sitting in a 6x9 cell and had the opportunity to make 6 bucks an hour...I would go for it, especially if I knew I had to make my way when I got out....plus my gaintime date might, just might be dependant on my incentive to work... and my basic nature told me I didnt want to VOP because I had no funds...

[BILLY D.]

VAL, VAL, VAL.

YOU ARE REALLY STARTING TO DISAPPOINT ME YOUNG LADY. YOU ARE UTILIZING WORDS LIKE COMMON SENSE AND RESPONSIBILITY, TWO WORDS LIBERALS CAN'T STAND, AND ALMOST IN THE SAME BREATH. SHAME, SHAME.

CONSIDER YOURSELF VERBALLY CHASTISED AND GO FORTH AND SIN NO MORE. :eek:

ON THE LIGHTER SIDE, HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF A LADY NAMED CYNTHIA HOLDEN? SHE IS FROM ST. PETERSBURG. SHE HAS AN ORGANIZATION CALLED ADVOCATE FOR VICTIMS. I WAS JUST WONDERING WHAT HER SPIEL IS. ANY FEEDBACK?

HAVE A GOOD ONE AND PLEASE WATCH YOUR LANGUAGE. :D

[BILLY D.]

VAL

AN ADDENDUM TO THE ABOVE POST.

WE USED TO HAVE A TENET IN THE MILITARY, " IF YOU CAN'T DAZZLE THEM WITH BRILLIANCE, BAFFLE THEM WITH BS, AND TECHNICALITIES." WORKS EVERY TIME.

KEEP SMILING PRETTY LADY. AS ONE OF OUR POSTERS SAYS, "DON'T LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YA DOWN."

[denton]

Val, I used to have a church assignment that took me to the Nevada State Prison a couple of times a month. When I was done with it, it was all I could do to calmly stroll to the gate. Man, I hated that place... and I knew that they were going to let me out when I decided to go.

One part of the prison population is just plain dumb. There are a LOT of 85 IQ's in that place.

Another part of the prison population is meaner than the proverbial junkyard dog.

A surprising number of the inmates are both dumb and mean.

Now there were also a few people who had made mistakes, and were making their way back, which is very admirable, especially considering the environment they were in.

Most of them have brains that are simply not wired like yours. You make the connection between honest labor, self worth, self improvement, and being a contributing member of society. Don't expect that from the general prison population.

Most of us behave because we have an internal moral compass. A good share of prison inmates have no such thing, and will do anything they think they can get away with. They behave as well as they do, because they are afraid of consequences. They do not care in the slightest what their actions do to you.

The ones that come out of prison better than they went in are the minority, and have my admiration. If we're trying to prevent recidivism, I think we're doing it all wrong.

[fabsroman]

I second Denton. He pretty much said what I was going to say.

Val,

You are thinking like yourself, not like "them." Over the past three years, I have sat and pondered why some people do what they do.

Why does my granite client start a business that is doing really well, but not want to listen to his accountant/lawyer regarding worker's comp, general liability insurance, the procedure for making deposits, the procedure for making transfers to payroll, the requirements that he complete an I-9 form when he hire a person, the requirement that everybody he pays be on payroll, etc. On top of that, I cannot understand how he continues to get into trouble. He was found guilty of Drinking & Driving in June 2004 and given 3 years probation. By September 2004 he was charged with 2nd degree assault in a domestic disturbance. I got the State's Attorney to drop the charge for lack of evidence. Come February 2005 he was charged with one count of disorderly conduct and 4 counts of 2nd degree assault, three of which were against police officers while watching a band at a bar. Mind you, his DWI probation called for no drinking. I ended up getting him a plea bargain for disorderly conduct and the judge gave him probation before judgment for 11 months with 12 AA meetings required. On top of that, he knew he didn't have a driver's license because I told him to go to MVA and get a new copy because they took it away during his DWI. When he went, he found out it was suspended, but continued to drive around until he got pulled over and received 6 tickets.

Now, sit back and try to think about why a person would do all this. Mind you, he is making $200,000+ in gross income.

Now, he runs his business almost the same way he runs his life. He has about $20,000 in receivables that have been out there for over 4 months, but he doesn't want to pay me to try and collect them. He barely listened to me about paying estimated taxes in April. He also thinks that his employees will run the business if he ends up in jail. Yeah right. Most of the time I call his cell phone or his business line, the voice mail boxes are full and I cannot leave a message. I have had customers complain about his customer service, including my sister, my dad, and a couple of friends that I referred to him. However, at the end of the day his price is the lowest because he doesn't pay worker's comp, general liability, and other things that he should pay.

I have already told you about the lady that quit her job for absolutely no reason that I could think of.

How about my brother. He makes $100,000 a year, has a decent amount in his savings account earning 2%, but decides to keep a $5,000 balance on his credit card because he doesn't want to make that lump sum payment even though he has the money in his savings account. I believe his quote was "It hurts too much to write that check." Mind you, he is paying 19.9% on the credit card balance. Doesn't really make sense to me.

I have plenty of stories about clients and my brothers that do not make sense. If you can just make sense of the above, then I will believe that COMMON SENSE could possibly solve all of our social problems.

If everybody had common sense and a decent upbringing, I don't think there would be a tenth of the problems that there currently are in this nation. Sad thing is they don't.

My brother and I were raised by the same parents and he and I are completely different. If my other brother didn't take care of him, he would be a disaster.

Yes, common sense usually helps, but trying to apply it to situations where people lack common sense is rather tough.

Now, I do not even try to think about why people do what they do, I only worry about whether or not their checks are going to clear.

[foto]

Before you jump on this source of free labor maybe a few other things to consider.

The cost of the "free labor". While 5 bucks on the books may sound cheap, what's the real cost.Administration of this thing, cost of security,feeding and housing them, etc etc. With a real worker the only outlay is what you pay him. With these guys , sure they sound cheap, but the real cost is being sucked up by
the state. What si the real return. The state feeds, houses and clothes him and must manage them and provide security. Is that really cheaper than an hourly worker adding in the security the employer will need to prevent any inmate run scams. Sounds like the taxpayer is getting screwed. If they used the money to pay all costs of maintaining the prisoners to make jails pay for themselves I think we would quickly see how they can't even pay for themselves and its just a corporate handout.

Secondly and more importantly, doesn't anyone remember our history? Freemen, you, me etc are now going to have to compete with slave labor? Wars have started for this. The only possible result is that us free people will have to accept the same working conditions as a slave or face unemployment. To accept otherwise would be tantamount to the south's claim in the Civil war that slavery in a few states was acceptable. Slave labor is not acceptable and we fought it before not for the slave's benefit, but for our own. What freeman would want or could compete with slaves? Inmates, mexicans, etc nothing good can come from it. Jobs that nobody wants? Sorry, what you mean are jobs that noone wants for the slave wages you are paying. Start paying the wage the market demands and you won't have any problem.

If it has to be done, then limit their employment ro industries where the cost of labor makes up more than 25% of the cost of the final product. Those types of industries have already been surrendered to the foreign countries so if they take any jobs away from anyone it will be from foreigners outside the US. It makes no sense to give them jobs that Free americans would take if given the chance. Those deals with corporations for answering phones etc are just a corporate handout at the expense of the taxpayers. Somebody is getting rich off it. Do you really think monstro Corp gives a dam* about helping convicts when they don't even give a hoot about you? How about making the prisoners do the jobs of migrants, like spending 12 hours a day picking asparagus till your hands bleed for two bucks a bushel? At least that has some sort of karmic justice to it. IMHO

[Nulle]

Hey Val start up another barn burner with what the mayor of Miami wants to do with the Preditors ? lmao

[fabsroman]

foto,

I think Val's entire point was to use inmate labor to replace immigrant labor in the agricultural fields. My point is that most inmates would rather sit in jail than work for $2 an hour picking crops out of fields.

I went to a party once where a guy introduced himself as a professional criminal. We got to talk and it turns out that he was a car thief. His reason for being a car thief was that there was no other place that he could possibly make $60,000 a year without a college education. Obviously, he hadn't talked to my brothers, both of whom are making 6 figures legally without a college education.

My point is that most criminals do not want to work hard for a living. If they did, more likely than not, they wouldn't be in jail.

[gregarat]

So most people who go to prison are worthless. Thats very true.

What about the few who actualy learn from their stupidity? Do we just cast them aside beacuse they might go back to their old way of life? Truth be told if they cant get a job at McDonalds, all they can do is go back to iligal ways to make money to live. If thats the case why the heck do we even let them out? I guess their is no such thing as a second chance anymore?
Mind you, I am talking about a small percentage of the Con., and ex Con. population.


I guess people who enter this countery iligaly are worth more:rolleyes: .


Oh yeah... if I were to have to choose between the Robber, or the enbezzler to hire. The choice would be oviouse for me.
I would choose the robber.
The robber would just steal what he could carry. The enbezzler would take your buisness for everything its worth;) :D

[fabsroman]

The smart embezzler would only take a small portion of the business to make sure that it survives a while. Kind of like a tick feeding off a deer. Also, he would take so little that nobody would notice and he would not end up in jail.

With that said, I know a couple of convicted criminals that are making fine money in the automotive repair business. Convicted criminals can make money and get jobs, it is just hard for them to get jobs where they will have responsibility (e.g., supervisors, handling money). I am sure there are a ton of convicted criminals in the construction industry doing the building.

I am not saying that criminals should not be employed after they serve their time, I am saying that not all of them want to be employed while in prison or out of prison.

[Valigator]

Nulle, yea dont you love it? His office and I have been e-mailing since I first read about it.....his original proposed legislation was to limit the amount of offenders in his city...now its gotten way to radical...and I fear, wont pass......these things take baby steps...and I wish he would have left well enough alone with the original idea.....I know that would have flown....and it would have been a huge step....towards the safety of the kids.....Oh well...we will see.....these guys will be with us always....we need a better solution.....all the laws passed out of outrage, wont do any one any good if the judges continue to use their own discretion when ever they feel like it....

[Nulle]

Well dear let me stir the pot a little = Just what makes him think "his" kids are more valuable the the ones in the rest of the country ? We don't care for these folks in Belle Fourche SD no more then he does in his city and we sure don't want his problems on top of our own.
All this Mayor is going to do over this drastic action of his is cause bad case law that will in turn hurt all of us in future legislation.

[Valigator]

You are 100 % correct......its called NIMBY..."not in my backyard" I have been in this fight long enough to know, reactions like his does nothing to solve the problems.....originally I supported his efforts when the proposal was to LIMIT.......now he is pissin in the wind so to speak.

http://www.petitiononline.com/restrict/petition.html

To date there is no limit to the amount of sexual offender/predators that can establish residence in any given zip code. In lower income or high rental areas this places a disproportionate amount of offenders in ratio to the surrounding communities. This lowers property values, puts a burden on police and corrections resources but most of all exposes our families and children to an unfair amount of convicted sexual offenders in any given area. I propose the cities have a right to limit the amount of convicted sexual offenders and predators that can establish residence to make these neighborhoods safer. If city officials had the guts to enforce this, the state would have to stand back and take a good long hard look at sentencing, interstate compact laws, incarceration, probation and deportation guidelines. If the citizens can’t get the justice they deserve from our elected officials in Tallahassee, maybe we should demand it from our local officials. Lots of advertising is done in this country on behalf of the welfare of the children. But when judges and attorneys are using the judicial system as a revolving door and throwing these offenders back in our neighborhoods, you have to wonder how safe they really want our children to be. I am begging someone to look at the big picture here. We are passing legislation in our country on knee-jerk reactions. Sex offenders are not going away, in fact with our classification system you will see more and more which is straining the budget of all our enforcement agencies.

Fabs always takes offense to the one sentence, I probably will have to rewrite it....

[fabsroman]

I'll add more fuel to the fire.

Why do you think low rent districts are, well, low rent districts? I would be willing to be that there are more released criminals in general living in these districts. I'd be willing to bet there is more crime in general in these districts too. Why should that crime be spread to higher rent, more affluent, districts. Some people work hard, pay that additional money, just to get out of those crappy districts. Why should the law be limited to sexual offenders. How about murderers, gang members, etc.

I doubt a law like this will ever pass, but more power to you Val.

[Valigator]

Fabs, what am I gonna do with you darlin?

First off, sex offenders as you know after completeing their sentences are usually in a lower income area because its affordable.....just common sense right.....well these lower income areas are usually where young couples are just starting their families. We are not talking slums here....we are talking blue collar neighborhoods.....hard working people buying their first houses...renting etc...they always have a higher number of offenders than your gated communities....does that make their children any less valuable?

Second, you have to look at some border states passing laws to impact the illegal alien problem. Now I know you being in Maryland and all might not be impacted as much as some other states...but by passing heavy restrictions on these people....the ultimate goal is to get them deported faster....slow down the influx to certain states, "interstate compact laws" and impose longer sentences.....

So its a roundabout way of telling our lawmakers...Hey, get your head out of your butt....go back to the drawing board and keep the bad guys locked up for as long as possible, get rid of the illegals..who by the way, comprise a huge number of offenders, and shut the borders to anyone convicted of a sexual offense....now how can you argue with that?

PS. and if you really took the time to know more about this subject than you obviously do...you will find these crimes against our kids are not one time events that go away over time...facts are...the overwhelming amount of abusers were abused themselves...its generational....so as the crimes become more common and not dealt with, the odds of your kids or grandkids getting a hit from one of these guys gets greater and greater...

[fabsroman]

"PS. and if you really took the time to know more about this subject than you obviously do...you will find these crimes against our kids are not one time events that go away over time...facts are...the overwhelming amount of abusers were abused themselves...its generational....so as the crimes become more common and not dealt with, the odds of your kids or grandkids getting a hit from one of these guys gets greater and greater..."

I might be younger than you Val, but I'm not naive. While I cannot take hours and hours out of my day to thoroughly research every subjecy I post about on here, I do know about the PS portion of your post.

I am all for stricter laws requiring these people to spend the rest of their life in jail, or better yet, the death sentence. I used to be a big proponent of the death sentence until I heard about all these innocent guys on death row. I sort of understand that they were found guilty before modern science could have proven them not guilty, but I also watched that show about that good doctor down in Florida where he was found guilty because of modern science that was later proven to be wrong. Anyway, I digress.

What I am not for is laws that say all counties have to support the same number of child molestors/criminals. I know where the bad areas of Maryland are and I choose to stay away from them. I also have plenty of friends, blue colar and white colar, and they stay away from these areas also.

Essentially, what you are looking to do is almost like welfare. Make the poorer neighborhoods better to live in at the cost of the wealthy. Yeah, keep the SOB's in jail longer, fine with me, but don't tell me that they will HAVE to move into my neighborhood because I do not have enough of them around here. Why not give them million dollar homes in Potomac, Maryland because I can bet that there aren't many of these scumbags living there. If we are really looking for everybody to be subject to the same ratio of sexual offenders to normal people, we would have to give them million dollar homes in Potomac, Maryland because there is nothing cheaper than that around there. Hell, the median home price in Montgomery County, Maryland is $650,000, who is going to pay for all of these guys to live evenly throughout the county.

What I really do not understand is why my sister spent $332,500 on a condo and I spent $333,000 on a townhouse so that we can be told that we will be forced to live next to sexual offenders who will be given subsidized housing in our area because they definitely cannot afford it. Both my sister's condo and my townhouse are now selling for $400,000+. Why should we have to pay the high mortgage cost and be subjected to the same atmoshere as the poor neighborhoods.

When evaluating where to live, a lot of variables come into play, schools, businesses, growth, and CRIME. I didn't move into the very affordable Southeast Washington, D.C. where I could have picked up a row house for less than $100K because that place used to be the murder capital of the nation. According to your program, most of those gang members should be moved out too because Southeast D.C. has an incorrect ratio of gang members to normal people. Those gang members should also get a mansion in Potomac to sell crack out of. Same goes for Seat Pleasant in Prince George's County, Maryland.

Why are jails usually in crappy neighborhoods? Because nobody in their right mind wants to live next to a jail, so they work their rears off to get away from that environment. I guess we should drop a jail in Potomac, Maryland. NOT. The residents there would be on the phone to their reps in the Maryland Legistlature and the County Council and it would never happen.

You have great ideas Val, but they aren't as easy to implement as you think.

I guess I should also be saying, "Val, what am I going to do with you darlin?"

In a utopia, there would be no crime and everybody would live in a mansion, but this isn't a utopia. We have good and bad, rich and poor, old and young, well and sick, smart and stupid, etc.

What's that Forest saying that my mom loves, ah yes,

Stupid is as stupid does.

I am all for stricter sentences on criminals, but that would mean more jails and more taxes, and nobody wants to hear more taxes. I am all for deporting our criminals to the southern most tip of South America, or better yet, Antartica, so that they will have a long trip to get back to the US. Deporting them to the southern most tip of South America would give these South American countries a little taste of what they are sending our way.

Better yet, build a Great Wall of America across our southern border, have citizens take turns manning it, like jury duty, to prevent south americans from coming over, and toss our convicted criminals over the wall for the given sentence time. Once their time is up, they can come back into the US. Makes it a lot easier to meet out harsh sentences because we do not have to worry about overflowing jails. The only thing we would have to worry about is Mexico overflowing, but even then, they could continue to move south.

[Valigator]

I'm not sure how you want me to respond to the above post????but I am glad you and your family are doing well......

[fabsroman]

Val,

It doesn't matter how you respond to the above post, it is all a good debate. My parents came over here from Italy in the early 50's when they were just 14. They didn't know English very well, but they learned it. They lived in the middle of Washington, D.C. but were able to move out of there when they got married. They moved to what was a decent part of Prince George's County. It's not so decent anymore. After that, they moved to a nicer area in Montgomery County, not even close to a Potomac, and they have lived there ever since. They wanted me to buy a house around there, but I refused to do so because the area is deteriorating. The high school I went to, predominantly white when I went there, now has a majority that is minorities, if that makes any sense. All around where they live is pockets of poor families (e.g., low income, immigrants). It looks as though the areas that had the older folk in them living in homes built in the 50's, are now being taken over by minorities as the old folk leave or pass away. It is amazing to see what used to be a high income neighborhood become a low income neighborhood. Right now I am trying to get them to sell their house and move out by me, but that will take some doing.

Reply away, I can debate this subjecy all night and into the day, and I still like my Great Wall of America idea.

[Lilred]

As fer as inmates werkin..they should do it fer free..12 hour days just like my sorry butt. Hell, they git more meals a day than I do..and I gotta cook it myself!
Furthermore..people aint stupid..in general. When somebody is commiting ANY illegal act, wether it's peein on the side of road or robbin a bank..deep down..somewhere in that turnip-sized brain of the common criminal..they KNOW they are doin somethin wrong. I truly aint the patience God give a rock when it's comes to that crap. Iffin you know it's illegal..and you do..then you know you will face the consequences at some point in time.
Therefer..carry ALL their carcasses out somewhere and make em do somthin. And iffin they caint be trusted outside..chain gang em. And iffin they think that wont werk, put em to werk makin plastic toys er some crap. ANYTHING but sit there.

Illegal immigrants..put em in a cow trailer and haul em all back.
I frankly dont care what they do with em. Iffin they caint come in legal..to hell w/ em. They might be nice people, w/ the Saint Peter w/ em...but..yet again..you KNOW you are doin somethin wrong..bein that it is illegal..then throw their butts on the chain gang too.

Fabs..(I know it's comin..lol) what I say might not practical er whatever..but dernit..it aint nowhere as difficult as most other things this country does...and fer stupid reasons. Things in life is only as difficult as you make em.

They oughta enroll all them illegal people and them convicts in the dern Army..throw em in Bagdad somewheres. See how quick they'll defend this country. They'd all run w/ their tailed tucked. Iffin you aint willin to die fer the country that feeds & clothes you every day fer free, and let you in here even iffin you didnt do it legal and they even risked diein just to git over here..then let em git whacked.

This is a harsh post..sorry ya'll..but my patience is very short when it comes to lazy, ignorant people. I reckon dealin w/ the public every day makes you that way..I dunno.
But i know one thing..I'm tirit of givin people free rides and 10% discounts fer no reason, and I'm tirit of lazy, ignorant people livin offa my sweat & tears..directly er indirectly.

[BILLY D.]

LILRED

I LOVE YA.

YOU CALL THEM THE WAY YOU SEE EM'. YOU NAILED IT DOWN WITH BRASS TACKS, PLAIN AND TO THE POINT AND I ADMIRE YOU.

THANKS

[Valigator]

Honey nobody could of said it better...how is that precious baby?..kiss her on the lips for me....Val

[fabsroman]

Lilred,

I'll agree with you for the most part, except for the 10% discount and having any respectable soldier have to rely on any of these guys.

The 10% discount I received for my hardwood was well deserved. I'm sure you know about that incident because I have posted about it before.

As far as sending the criminals and illegals into battle to support the US and seeing how fast they run the other way, how about the liberals. The day the Chinese or whomever else is knocking at the door, I cringe to think that the liberals might have to fight.

[Lilred]

Fabs...there are alot of folks who do deserve 10%...but most don't. I wont start goin off on that..I'll be typin all day..lol
But I aint givin 10% off to every person who comes in mad cause all the handicapped spaces were full in the parkin lot. Yes, that is a true story.

Val, the baby is fine, she talks alot now, or attempts to. She loves books, and Mama tryin to teach her words aint exactly smart. She says "flower" like I do, which is more like "flare". She knows eyes, nose, ears and mouth..which she says "mouf"...lol
Her favorite thing is Elmo..which I say as "ail-mo". She says it that way too, and it's real cute. She says "ail-muh".
She runs around grabbin everything off the table that she can, I have padlocked and chained everything down like a earthquake is comin..lol She LOVES outside...she pays close attention to everythin, like the birds singin, and she loves the flowers, grass and leaves. She is truly a blessin to our family..even tho she causes as much trouble as a fox in a chicken house..lol

Billy, thanks fer the kind werds..my Pop always told me never to beat arouund the bush at nuthin. My Pop was stern, and strong as an ox. I miss him very much, but everybody on here dun heard that fore. Growin up in the late 70's, I was cobbin corn by hand w/ them old corn grinders...Gawd I hated that. We hunted, fished, trapped on the river fer a week at a time. We raised acres of everythin, mostly bacccer..chickens & hogs too. Cut wood all year long fer the winter. Iffin anything good comes out of me, it was surley because of him. He was very "Southern" and right from wrong was a daily preachin. So was manners, and respect. Doin things on yer own w/o askin fer help was another big preachin..along w/ bein ladylike and doin "womanly" things like cleanin & cookin. He was 72 when he died in 1989 ...after sufferin fer 4 years on counta a stroke. He was paralyzed on his right side from his neck down. Fer 3 of them 4 years, he/we still planted and cut wood. He was tireless even tho half of his body didn't work. it ran out tho, he became bedridden, and a year later he died of pnuemonia.
Which is just another reason why I dont feel nary an ounce of sympathy fer any dam convict nor them fools who risk their life to come over here illegally, and then expect no punishment other than a lower payin job.

If a Virginia man w/ half of a body can raise everythin from mater plants in the spring, baccer and food crop all summer, greens in the winter, cut wood and take care of his family..then them there fools can git out on that chain gang and do some werk.

[Valigator]

Lilred, I just adore you....

[earschplitinloudenboomer]

lilred;
...again you have shown your high sense of moral value. I'm afraid that you or I will never be able to explain the difference between right, wrong.......and legal to some people. Thank you once more for trying.

best to you and yours...
ears-

[gspsonny03]

I'm sorry to hear that Lilred, I had not heard that story before. I now feel that I understand where you get your tenaciouness from. He sounds to me like someone a person would be proud to call dad and mean it. I truly agree with your prior posts, people can say what they want about inmates not working and all the legalities therein, but the fact remains that if you have no other choice, what else are you going to do. Why should they have a choice? Why should we have to furnish them with a bed, a TV, food, exercise equipment and all the other niceties of life after they have victimized someone else. We didn't ask them to do what they did, we just allow it to continue to happen. Back in the middle ages if you committed a crime you was dealt with by losing body parts, and as awful as that sounds, people understood that you would pay dearly for your crimes. Yes, I understand that we have become more civilized so that our lives are better, but why should we have to foot the bill for there screwups? Ok I'll get off the soapbox now, this is something that really upsets me.
Anyway Lilred Amen to your prior posts.

[fabsroman]

Lilred,

I agree with you completely. Everybody should work for a living, that is just how it goes. However, not everybody wants to work as hard as the other guy, yet some want to be paid more than the other guy without working that hard.