Political Undertones in Star Wars Episode III

[fabsroman]

I cannot believe what I have been reading tonight. There are allegedly political undetones in Star Wars Episode III. I read something where Lucas states that he wrote the lines before the Iraq war, but then I read something else that he wrote the outline before the Iraq war but the lines came afterward.

I was so looking forward to seeing this movie. Now, I guess I am going to have to wait until it is shown on DirectTV for free. This really sucks, but I guess principles are principles.

Oh well, the rest of you can let me know if the movie is good or not, and try not to rub it in too hard.

[Steverino]

The movie rocks!!! Saw the first midnight showing with my brother and his family and hundreds of other rowdy, pumped SW fans.

George Lucas conceived the storyline for the SW films actually during the Vietnam war and has made references to the current situation in Iraq having similiarities to Vietnam.

The film deals with the fall of a Republic- no different than any other history lesson studied upon past times in our civilization and yes, one can certainly draw upon some thought-provoking analogies when considering the modern times and circumstances in which we live today. The film (IMHO) DOES NOT make a political statement, contrary to what some have reported.

People have wondered and discussed over the years as to why this particular series became so popular worldwide. Besides the dazzling array of spectacular special effects, there is a story with deep character development (and digression) along with morals, philosophies, and a premoral understanding that transcends cultures, attitudes , and beliefs.

The film was very, very good. Having read the book, I wish George Lucas would have left certain things in the film which I think would have served to help others understanding of certain scenes. He was loyal to the story and his vision which in the end...is what mattered.

Go take your honey to see the film Fabs- you won't be disapointed!;)

[TreeDoc]

This video goes back to the release of the last Star Wars movie. It's a bit long but hilarious. I hope none of you guys are actually seen in the background....some of these people are simply embarrasing! :rolleyes:


Star Wars and Triumph the Dog (http://www.milkandcookies.com/stuff/triumphvsw.asx)

[fabsroman]

Steverino,

I broke down yesterday after a frustrating day of work and went to see the movie. I agree with you in pretty much everything you said. The movie really leaves a person thinking.

How long ago did you get the book? Has the book been out for a while? I read the Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, and Return of the Jedi books and I will agree that the books are always a lot better than the movie. I love the fact that the book lets you know what a character is thinking. When I get some time in my life (i.e., after the wedding), I am going to sit down and read the first three books.

[8X56MS]

"Political Undertones" hardly come close to Lucas' statements at the Cannes Film Festival in, where else, FRANCE.
Almost enough said, but wait, there is more............

Seems like Lucas is indeed a part of the 'evil empire' of ultra left wingers. I did not catch the last movie, but the first of the 'prequels' was a bust. I don't think this one would be worth the price of admission either.

[Steverino]

I read the book only a few weeks ago Fabs and like you, enjoy the insight into a characters thoughts. I won't give any spoilers away for those that may wish to see the film but the book delves into different Force abilities that each of the Jedi knights posess such as Mace Windu's ability to see people's relationship to the force (he sees Obi-Wan and Anakin at opposite ends of a fulcrum, fractured and splintered with Palpatine in the middle)

We also learn in the book that Mace dabbles with the Dark side of the Force to better understand it-which explains why he fairs better against the Emperor than some of the other Jedi.

The author, Matt Stover, is also an accomplished martial arts expert, which comes through in his descriptive prose of the many lightsabre duels between the various characters.

I personally found that the book and movie together complimented each other very well in explaining the story.

8x56,
I have personally read different copies of Lucas's story outlines that were written well over thirty years ago and can tell you that this last episode (along with the other two prequels) is faithful to the original story conception.

Many critics and fans did not like the first two prequels, equating them to a Sci-Fi version of CNN, however, they set the political stage for Palpatine's plotting in the fall of the Republic and the ultimate fall of Anakin Skywalker's character and that of the Jedi Order. (JMHO)

[8X56MS]

Steve,

I based my remarks on what Lucas said at the film's debut in Cannes, not on what his story outline was.

Star Wars is NOT "War and Peace". This is light escapist fiction, and has no deep inner meanings. The author was mediocre at best, in his characterizations, plot development, continuity or flare for dialog.

[Tater]

I don't understand why people can't just go to a movie and enjoy it. Who gives a flying fornication if there are political undertones or not? The people are threatening to ruin an experience almost 20 years in the making.

[Rocky Raab]

Just to put a different slant on it (and not a slap to you, Tater), but I don't understand why people can't just read a book and stop putting money in the pockets of Hollywood ultra-liberal, commie idiots. That money just goes to help them further their anti-American cause. Who NEEDS movies?

[TreeDoc]

Thank you, Rocky!

I haven't been to a movie in years for that one reason!!

[Steverino]

I suppose I'll be the conscientious objector here. As far as "Who needs movies?"

I DO!!!!:D :D :D ME, ME, ME!!!:D :D :D

We can perhaps better envision the author's crafts with respect to a Star Wars novel because of Lucas and Industrial, Light, and Magic (ILM)

I personally enjoy Sci-Fi movies the same way that someone enjoys a novel (I do happen to read alot BTW) ;) as an escape and enjoyable break from everyday life.

While I cannot comment of what George Lucas said at the Canne's Film Festival, having not personally seen or heard the comments, I personally respect his past business decisions that went against the Hollywood machine to create the Star Wars series the way that he wanted. (putting his own butt on the line while building a technolgical empire, much also in the way that moviemaking as well as computer sciences and medical technology are benchmarked today) Like him or hate him, the man pioneered the way films are made today.

What exactly did Lucas say at the film festival? Was it akin to the Dixie Chicks? I'm curious.

I personally have no problem enjoying an artist-be it a film maker or musician that posesses opinions that I do not necessarily agree with but I do take issue with these same performers when they turn it into a political platform to spew their own idealogy.

Just mt .02.
;)

[Rocky Raab]

If you truly enjoy movies, then by all means go see them.

Just be aware that every dollar you feed them goes to support:

animal rights
environmental whackos
PETA
pro UN
abortion
sex offenders
felons
socialism
terrorism

anti-military
anti-hunter
anti-gun
anti-religion

and every other silly cause that Hollywood supports.

Not telling you what to do, but if I bought a movie ticket or rented a video, I'd send an equal donation to the NRA.

[M.T. Pockets]

Rocky, couldn't agree more. Here's a link to an interesting article I read a couple weeks ago on how Hollywood has changed.

www.hillsdale.edu/imprimis

This sheds some light on Hollywood today, compared to years ago.

[Steverino]

Since I do enjoy films Rocky, I suppose my membership and involvement with NRA, ILA, Ducks Unlimited, Pheasants Forever, & the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation along with my church and Christian ministry volunteer work will have to suffice then!!:D :D

I hear where you're coming from though.

We must be careful though "when painting with a wide brush." While in the extreme minority, there are actors that do not espouse the aforementioned list of rubbish. Tom Selleck comes immediately to mind.

[fabsroman]

How about Charlton Heston. Granted, he is in the old generation of movie actors, but he was an actor nonetheless. I think you can find people in all professions that have differing opinions. I am sure there are plenty of attorneys for and against guns, and whatever else, but most people do not select an attorney, doctor, dentist, or what have you because of their view on the NRA or other things. Granted, it was pretty cool when my fiance told me that her dentist in Winchester, VA had DU stuff all over the waiting room. She said she had been going to him for about a year before she met me and had no idea what all that stuff was, but after dating me for a couple of months and then going to the dentist, she was able to recognize the DU symbol in his office, the DU magazine on the rack, and the duck art on the wall.

The problem with Hollywood is that they use their stage and their profession to try and influence American's opinion and it doesn't take much to persuade some Americans. An attorney that I clerked for before I got out of law school wanted to send a postcard to all his clients just prior to the Maryland Governor election telling them to vote for the Democratic candidate. I told him that if he did that, I would no longer work for him, so he didn't. Everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion and I hate when people in positions of trust try to force their opinion on others regarding politics.

[Jack]

Been watching this thread....but since I haven't been to a movie in years, I haven't commented.
It occurs to me that probably each of us spends far more money at the gas pump than at the movie theater. So much of our oil comes from the Middle East, where's there are lotsa people that , shall we say, don't like us, to say the least.
Some of the money we spend at the gas pump funds terrorism, without question.
Maybe we oughta worry about funding terrorists a bit more than we worry about funding Hollywood.
Just one man's opinion, for free, and worth every penny of what ya paid for it.
Another thought, while musing on the concept of where your money goes.....
Hollywood (the movie industry) is a huge American business. One of the last businesses-if not THE last American business, that hasn't shipped it's jobs overseas. Maybe we oughta support Hollywood for keeping jobs in the US.
;)
Just more food for thought.

[Rocky Raab]

Oh certainly, there are exceptions. Heston, Selleck and Mel Gibson come immediately to mind, and there are other actor/entertainers as well: Ted Nugent and Barbara Mandrell among the better known.

But broadly speaking, the broad brush has application when applied to Hollywood.

Since this thread started out as a movies vs politics item, I won't get into the world oil thing.

[PJgunner]

The last American business that hasn't shipped it's jobs overseas? Watch the credits sometimes where they say a movie was filmed. It sure as hell ain't in the U.S.A.! :mad:
I haven't gone to see a sit down movie in years, nor do I plan to in the future. I won't rent a movie either. I get my movies that I want to see at swap meets where the Hollyweird S.O.B.s don't get a penny of my money. Why should I support those spoiled prima donnas who think because they are stars, that they know more than me. A pox on the whole damn bunch of them.:mad:
Paul B.

[TreeDoc]

http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/html/emoticons/smiley-bowdown-purple.gif http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/html/emoticons/smiley-bowdown-purple.gif

AMEN! Brutha PJ and Brutha Rocky!

A Pox on them!!! http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/html/emoticons/smiley-wedgie.gif

[Skinny Shooter]

Forget Charleton Heston, he was just a democrat...


































Did I get your blood pressure up? LOL
Just kidding, he was a good one. :)

I read Blackhawk Down when it first came out and got upset with Clinton.
Then I saw the movie on VHS and got upset with Clinton.
Just rented it again on DVD and got upset with Clinton all over again.

Couldn't he have just sent in Janet "BBQ" Reno to get Aidid :confused: :confused: :confused:

Allen

[8X56MS]

Steve,
This is, in part, what Lucas said at Cannes. There was a lot more.

"''In terms of evil, one of the original concepts was how does a democracy turn itself into a dictatorship,'' Lucas told a news conference at Cannes, where his final episode had its world premiere.

''The parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in Iraq now are unbelievable. "

It's the old Sean Penn, Jane Fonda, Madonna thing all over again. These parasites, these so called 'actors', are not even all that good at their trade, and they are sadly lacking in intelligence.

I think that over the past 10 years, I have averaged about 1.2 m ovies a year, and in most cases, walked out of the theater regretting I spent the money.

[Jabba]

Guys... the answer, IMO, is voting out the rabble.

Do it during the primaries. I understand the thought that you do not want to allow liberals to fill the seats so you vote conservative during the general elections... me too. WHat we need to do is get other conservatives to run against the incumbents in the primaries and vote out the incumbents there.

I am on a crusade. I want every incumbent politician fired.

Jabba

[Jack]

PJ, many movies are filmed on location, and have been since the 1930's. The post production work is what has been, and still is, done in the US.

[Rocky Raab]

Interestingly, the current issue of Imprimis, the free newsletter from Hillsdale College (and which I heartily recommend to all HC members) has text from a speech by Michael Medved.

Medved is a radio talk show host, film critic and author of ten books, including Hollywood vs America. In his March 9 Hillsdale speech he says:

"In 1970, more than 70 percent of all revenues for the major studios in Hollywood came from the U.S. Today this number is less than 30 percent. Hollywood has conquered the world. It sells tons of movies and DVDs in France, Germany, Italy, Japan, and increasingly in China and India...As recently as 1965, 45 million Americans attended movies every week. Our population has nearly doubled since then, and yet today the number of moviegoers per week is barely 20 million. In other words, the American film industry has become conspicuously less American."

It's a helluva speech (which I had not read before today). Check it out and order a free subscription to Imprimis at THIS LINK. (http://www.hillsdale.edu)

[ds]

I cannot believe it? Ted Nugent is okay?

You do of course realize that old Uncie Ted

1) peed his pants and only drank pepsi for two weeks before his physical to get out of going to Vietnam

2) Has cheated on all three of his former wives

3) Married a 14 year old Polynesian girl so he could have sex with her?


Thanks, but I think I'll give George Lucas my money over Ted Nugent.

[TreeDoc]

ds,

http://www.jesseshunting.com/forums/html/emoticons/smiley_rotflmao.gif

You're killin' me, Man!

Drinkin' Pepsi and pizzing himself? Wow, I know some "50 something" year olds that are gonna really be pizzed to find out that's all it took to stay out of 'Nam! I bet Rocky knows a few too. Does Pepsi know of this miracle drug cuz it's a new one on me?

Cheated on former wives? Hmmmm....not that I condone that but judging from Ted's Rock n' Roll past I'd think that was par for the course. I don't know that much about his intimate personal life and I doubt many do.

Polynesian girl? Wow....where did you get that and the other info from? I kind of sounds like the stuff I read while at the checkstand at Wally World!

BTW, I don't think Ted needs my defense but I thought I'd ask anyway.

[fabsroman]

I thought Ted Nugent's wife is caucasian and a big supporter of gun rights. I don't like his show that much because it just doesn't appeal to me, but I did watch it once where his wife was giving a pro gun speach in Washington, DC. She did pretty well too. Of course, I saw this about 3 or 4 months ago and it might have been old to boot, so maybe he did divorce her and find a new woman. If I had the time I would do a search for the info.

[Lilred]

I think the whole dam thing has gone to hell in a handbasket..I aint been to a movie theatre in YEARS..but the movies nowadays..fer the most part..stink like a week old egg in a hot swamp.There is one thing bout movies nowadays that bother me..and ya'll will git all riled up and delete this here post..but I'm gonna say it anyways. Why is there so much explicit sex in movies these days? Now..the way I look at it is this..iffin it interested me..I would grab my ole man and have at it..(fer a lack of better werds..lol)
I aint deprived to the point that I have to see it. So the 20 min. sex scene adds what to a movie sides the glimpsing thought to some poor fool "Oh..maybe I'll try that!"..or the wife cuttin eyes at her droolin old man in the theatre..if not knockin him upside the head w/ a crowbar...insteada just thinkin to herself.."maybe I am doin somethin wrong.." now that there is a concept!
I aint just bein a woman either..I am a rare breed of "it's" that walk this earth. (Dont git no funny idears..this ole gal's closet door ONLY swings one way ..lol)
I am all fer simplicity..and to me..it dont make sense.
Iffin I wanted a porn movie..I'd go and git one.
But iffin anybody can explain to me why the MILLIONS of people watchin these movies apparantly love them scenes??
I'm sure slot of you fellers love that stuff..but could you possibly live w/o it fer 1 1/2 hours? I am probaly missin somethin here..I am very "simple-minded" so to speak..oh well..I dam straight aint deprived ;) :D

[FIJI]

http://www.tnugent.com/news/shemane.shtml

[ds]

Ted Nugent Dec. 13, 1948 Write an article about Ted Nugent




Artistfacts:
Nugent never did drugs or drank heavily. He says his addiction was women.
His first band was The Amboy Dukes. They had a hit in 1968 with "Journey To The Center Of The Mind."
At the peak of his popularity, he went broke due to poor financial management.
He had a relationship with a 17-year old Hawaiian girl when he was 30. He became her legal guardian in order to comply with laws regarding relationships with minors.
Nugent is an avid hunter and outspoken supporter of the right to bear arms. He frequently appears on television discussions on these issues, usually making inflammatory comments that rile the other guests.
He had 2 children with his first wife, who died in a car accident after their divorce.
His nickname is "The Motor City Madman." He's from Detroit.
He used to perform wearing only a loincloth.
He is on the board of directors of The National Rifle Association, although he usually goes hunting with a bow and arrow. He eats everything he kills. (thanks, Tom - Trowbridge, England)


Ted Nugent currently resides in Quick Facts about: Concord, Michigan
Quick Summary not found for this subjectConcord, Michigan.

Nugent avoided the Quick Facts about: draft
A document ordering the payment of money; drawn by one person or bank on anotherdraft during the Quick Facts about: Vietnam War
A prolonged war (1954-1975) between the communist armies of North Vietnam who were supported by the Chinese and the non-communist armies of South Vietnam who were supported by the United StatesVietnam War. According to the July 15, 1990 Quick Facts about: Detroit Free Press
Quick Summary not found for this subjectDetroit Free Press Magazine, Nugent claimed that he tried to avoid the draft:
"He claims that 30 days before his draft board Quick Facts about: physical
Quick Summary not found for this subjectphysical, he stopped all forms of personal hygiene. The last 10 days, he ingested nothing but Vienna sausages and Quick Facts about: Pepsi
Pepsi Cola is a trademarked colaPepsi; and a week before his physical, he stopped using Quick Facts about: bathroom
A room (as in a residence) containing a bath or shower and usually a washbasin and toiletbathrooms altogether, virtually living inside pants caked with his own excrement, stained by his Quick Facts about: urine
Liquid excretory producturine. That spectacle won Nugent a deferment, he says. ‘... but if I would have gone over there, I'd have been killed, or I'd have killed, or I'd killed all the Quick Facts about: hippie
Someone who rejects the established culture; advocates extreme liberalism in politics and lifestylehippies in the foxholes...I would have killed everybody.’"










There you go guys!!! Tree Doc, you MAKE ME LAUGH!! YOU DRANK THE REPUBLICAN KOOL-AID BROTHER!!! Ted Nugent is a coward, you can run from the truth, but you cannot hide.

[TreeDoc]

Oh yeah, ds. That proves it alright, after all, it's on the internet so it MUST be true. I'm convinced.

BTW, sorry...no Republican Kool-aid for me, thank you!

[ds]

Yes tree doc, I forgot. You die-hard Bushies are reaaaaalll sticklers on documentig sources for such serious things as magazine articles, newspaper editoiral, and intra-agency memos.

However, you are much less stringent on such things as CIA operative reports, British intelligence, and inventories from trained weapons inspectors. In these instances, casual observances or even out right tacit interpretation is often placed in the same category usually reserved for empirical scientific evidence.


The fact that a draft-dodger, adulterer, child-molester , pen-animal shooting, idiot like Ted Nugent gets the great Repooblican nod of approval makes me have a sharp pain right behind my eyes, somewhere in the temporal lobe. It's the same pain I get when my teenaged daugher prattles off for 30 mintutes about the cutest little skirt down at Nordstroms that daddy just has to buy her :)

[fabsroman]

DS,

You cannot fault us for being a little skeptical of reporters. The majority are liberal and look at what was already done to Bush. Was it Dan Rather that didn't follow up his source on that one story? I know it was a big name.

[skeet]

Hey ds..that pain in your head may just be a brain tumor:eek: better have it checked out. To be very honest..I have seen you spout off about repooblicans and dumbacrats too many times in the past. Actually...you have seemed to have swallowed all the stupid rhetoric of the liberals to some degree. Everyone has to right to feel the way they do....right or wrong. You really don't have to disparage them because they see things differently than you do. I happen to be a democrat..but not the kind of democrat we have today. Heck if JFK were alive today I can guarantee you he wouldn't be like his ridiculous brother. I do personally think the best thing to do would be to make politics illegal as well as the discussion of same. SOME people can't understand that what they prattle on about may not be quite as true as they believe! Can you imagine that. I'll bet a political discussion in your house is about as one sided as it could possibly be...and about as correct as you think Tree Doc's side of an issue is. If I may be so bold as to ask...is one of YOUR heroines named Jane Fonda?? The world knows the truth about her actions. Bet this fires you up. Not what I am trying to do though. Just trying to make you see how rancorous rhetoric can make someone feel. We really could leave it somewhere else I think.

[ds]

You know, skeet, hate to break it to you, but you just make me shake my head and chuckle. It always amazes me how when presented with the facts, you Kool-Aiders fall to statements such as rhetoric, etc. Tell you what, please feel free to find ANYTHING I said about Ted Nugent that is incorrect, with the exception that the girl was 17, not 14 (yes, I admit when I am wrong), and I will never ever ever post here again, so you don't have to deal with my bringing up the truth anymore and you can all repeat Sean Hannity's talking points. On the other hand, if it turns out correct what I said about Ted Nugent, you have to leave???????

Wanna bet?

[skeet]

As I said...a political argument with you is always one sided. I don't know or care about Ted Nugent. Don't think I have ever heard one of his songs and have only seen one or 2 pictures of him. How about Ol Hanoi Jane. You didn't address that at all. She one of your heroines?? ds..all I was saying was that you don't have to jump down someones throat to try to prove a point or have a discussion...but having a discussion with you is a losing proposition for anyone..You'll always be right...even if you are wrong. For instance...I don't happen to be a Bush lover.....Clinton I despised...mainly because he wasn't truthful and had no morals. But there you go...I must listen to Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh or someone else you strongly disagree with. In fact I listen to neither. I do occassionally listen to the Watergate Burglar. Oh and I did spend some time in Southeast Asia in a Democrat's war..getting shot at for no reason that I can see. But I chose to do what I considered my duty at the time. As often stated hindsight IS 20/20 at least in my case...possibly not in yours. I'm done. No one can reason with a closed mind.:rolleyes: I guess you still don't realize what I was trying to say.

[ds]

Skeet,

No, political arguments with me are not one-sided, but I do not suffer bullshit, plain and simple. If you are going to argue, you damned well better be armed with the facts, and if you are parsing sides, you better be ready to be called a hypocrit, because I am going to do it. For the record, tree doc was the one who said my sources were "laughable" and YOU were the one who started making the LIBERAL accusations and Jane Fonda, hence my Hannity reply. It's that simple, better not bring a knife to this fight cause I bring a gun.

So, when you say Ted Nugent is "allright", and I tell you he is a chickenshit, and tell you why, you better be ready to tell me why you think he is, and give me some FACTS. You know what they say about opinions....

I am going to show you what I mean. You say you hated Clinton because he has no morals. I have no choice but to inerpret this as morality is very important to you. I am going to take one simple fact here and show you my thinking. The Bush family has an alcohol problem, it's true. Bush stayed drunk for over forty years, his daughters have issues with booze, as does his brother Neil. Now, you have two choices here as far as I can see

1) dislike Bush for abusing alcohol and thus being immoral

2) disregard his alcoholism abuse and still say his is a moral man

If you chose 2, I say it's pretty damned hypocrital. You are cherry picking your morals. It's a free country and all of that, but if it's wrong to be a cockhound, why is it not wrong to be a boozehound???

and for the record, regarding Jane Fonda, hey, she screwed up, it was stupid, hurtful, ugly, and probably treason,. But then again, she was a 19 year old kid, in this country we don't let 19 year old kids vote, drink, or run for President. Somebody must think being 19 excuses you from being accountable for some stuff.

I did hear that she appologized for it all just a few months ago, said it was over the top, and how bad she felt. Funny, Jane Fonda screws up at age 19 and you hold her feet to the fire, G.W. stays a fricking derelict druggie, drunk until he's 42 and -- see where I am going with this stuff??? Don't you see why you guys make my frontal lobes scream in agony????

[fabsroman]

DS,

You and I have had pretty good debates over time, and I don't really know much about Ted Nugent and do not care to do the research to find out otherwise, but I think you are slightly out of line on a couple of things.

Fist off, nobody needs to leave the board over this. At least I don't think so.

Secondly, you will find that alcoholism is not illegal in most of the nation, and I would be guessing about Utah if I said it was legal, but I do think I remember my brothers drinking out there. Personally, I think the stuff should be illegal and I believe it causes a bunch of trouble. I have sat in court on several days where almost all the criminal stuff was related to drinking.

Now, I believe alcoholism is actually designated as a disease. Last I checked, adultery and perjury were both illegal and neither were a disease. Being an alcoholic does not mean you are a liar and I would much rather deal with a person that has a drinking problem than somebody that has a lying problem. I have a client that has both problems, and I can deal with his alcohol issues a lot easier than I can with his lying issues.

Now, drinking and driving is illegal, and I will not tolerate that.

Now you see why my head hurts whenever you say that Clinton is a great guy. I cannot stand him and I hate the people out there that love him because they were doing well financially while he was in office. In essence, people are willing to follow a liar and cheater so long as they are making money. What does that say about their morals, and they do not even understand that the economy at that time might not have been a result of Clinton.

As far as Jane Fonda is concerned, she made a stupid mistake and it cost her. I'm not going to be sheding any tears for her because it really didn't cost her too much. She is rich and she has probably had a better life than any of us will have, but that would assumption would only be based upon money being able to buy happiness. Tim Leatherman made a dumb mistake when he backed Kerry. He received a ton of e-mail from people like me and he took a position that he can support any candidate that he wants and that it was his money and his business he was putting on the line. Well, a couple of months after the election he sent out an e-mail asking that we not punish his employees by not buying his products since they had nothing to do with his political affiliation. Simply put, the ballot is a secret thing, so don't go spouting off at the mouth if you might live to regret it. As a business man he should have known better than to take such an outspoken position on politics.

Like they say, don't bring up politics or religion during an interview.

I could go on all night with this subject and this thread, but I am going to call it quits for the night.

[ds]

Fabs,

I never said Clinton was a great guy, never, never, never, I simply said, if you HATE Bill for being immoral, then you better HATE George as well, or you are being a hypocrit.

For the record, G.W. has one DUI, Dick Cheney has 2 DUI's.


Now ponder this, did Bill Clinton put people's lives at risk by having oral sex in the oval office? Did Bush and Cheney put people's lives at risk by driving drunk?

I am a very black and white kind of guy, right is right, wrong is wrong, it does NOT matter what side you are on.

[fabsroman]

DS,

It is tough for anybody to pass the complete morality test. I come close, but I am sure that I have done some things that aren't completely kosher.

The thing with drinking and driving is that it isn't looked on too hard by society because most people have done it. Everybody I know that drinks has done it. My dad used to do it a lot when I was a kid and that is one of the reasons I do not drink. He also looked like a buffoon at these parties and that is another reason I do not drink. Then there is my brother that has gotten 3 DWI's in 15 years and he continues to drink and drive.

Judges even have a tough time punishing people for drinking and driving.

The problem with adultery, perjury, and lying is that it is a trust issue. It is tough to trust somebody that does that kind of stuff whereas a drunk is completely different. That is where the big difference lies between Clinton and Bush.

While I understand that you are a black and white kind of guy, we live in a mostly grey world. Things were probably more black and white 100+ years ago.

What ever happened with White Water? Kind of funny how the star witness just happened to commit suicide. That is just another black eye for Clinton.

[Rocky Raab]

The thing that seems to light fuses here, ds is that in your black and white world only your "facts" are true.

As we've recently seen, CBS and Newsweek had "facts" that turned out to be - shall we say less than true?

There's also the issue that "facts" can be selectively sifted. NOT to imply you'd do that, but any of us can come across a set of previously sifted "facts" and then quote them as truth - when they aren't. The complete picture sometimes has a different color than black or white.

[fabsroman]

Rocky,

It is kind of like the game called telephone from when we were in grade school. With the ever increasing population and the widespread use of the internet, it is easy to get false information out and around the globe in a blink of an eye.

For instance, there was an e-mail sent out several years ago that birds explode when they eat rice. That was the biggest crock, but most of the population is under the impression that birds will explode if they eat rice. Is this a fact, definitely not.

It is tough to read stuff over the internet and take them as facts without knowing the source, etc. The news reporters are getting almost as bad.

[skeet]

I guess you said what I couldn't get across. there are facts...and then there is truth.
ds. I didn't say I hated Clinton..don't hate much of anybody...hate is a word I very seldom use...or feel....even towards you:D As far as Nugent...I know nothing about him..I do know that Jane Fonda's actions happened to get some of our prisoners tortured and possibly killed. 19 or not she should have to be held responsible for those actions. No other arguments about Bush or Clinton...or anyone else. As I said I'm done arguing.
Hey Fabs... I saw a bird explode in midair. Don't think he ate any rice though. I do know he had a dose of lead...at about 1200 ft per second.:p

[fabsroman]

Yeah, I have seen the same thing happen from lead poisoning. It is amazing what lead can do to a bird. I have seen Tungsten poisoning too.

[8X56MS]

so what is your point here ds? I don't think Ted Nugent was the original thrust of the thread. I guess liberals just can't stay focused, and have very little in their quiver to use in reply other than "you guys have faults too!"

[skeet]

Don't say anything else.. You'll end up being a card carrying,Clinton hating, Sean Hannity listening, Rush Limbaugh ditto head, democrap bashing, repooblican that gives some person a pain in the frontal?? lobe, where the brain tumor is, conservative that supposedly can't see the forest for the trees.:D

Or maybe not:eek: :D

Just havin some fun guys. Just couldn't help it.

Hey Fabs,.....Hevishot poisoning...the expensive kind of poisoning!!!

[TreeDoc]

Savage is right....Liberalism IS a mental disorder.

[skeet]

wHO IS THE SAVAGE??:confused:

[TreeDoc]

Ohhhhhh skeet, you are not aware of Michael Savage? He has a radio show that is done out of the San Francisco Bay Area. You could call him conservative at times but every day common sense is what I call it. He will blow you away with his ideas but listening to him is like a bunch of us hangin' out in the garage sharing ideas and opinions. He gets fumin' pizzed all the time at the crap that goes on in goverment and society and goes off frequently.....just like I do when I watch TV or listen to media idiots.

He has written numerous books on many topics over his lifetime but more recently a few on politics and our our nation. The most recent "Liberalism is a Mental Disorder" and he's right. His ideas on Borders, Language, and Culture are spot on too. Three things this country is losing at a rapid rate thanks to the liberal's poisen.

You must find him and listen!

www.michaelsavage.com

This is more discriptive...

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Savage is harder hitting than other conservatives. Wilder than Bill, funnier than Ann, Michael Savage is a media icon who is unafraid to take on the establishment. He pulls many of his life experiences, including that of father, son, husband, brother, ice cream factory worker, busboy, lifeguard, writer, and scientist, into his commentary.
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[8X56MS]

Skeet admonished me, and rightly so:
"NO NO NO 8X56MS
Don't say anything else.. You'll end up being a card carrying,Clinton hating, Sean Hannity listening, Rush Limbaugh ditto head, democrap bashing, repooblican that gives some person a pain in the frontal?? lobe, where the brain tumor is, conservative that supposedly can't see the forest for the trees. "

I do admit to getting frustrated with liberals though. Sorry guys :)