pistol caliber carbine

[anilowrie]

Was thinking about getting a lever gun in either .357 or .44 mag . Since I shoot far more targets than game (shoot small game often with a rimfire) I'm not so concerned with killing power . What about accuracy ? wind deflection ? How far do you think you could hit a 9" plate with yours ? Do these cycle well ? Problems or recomendations ? I understand these will shoot like a rainbow , is there a similar but better choice ?(caliber wise)

[Hawkeye6]

I think I've seen a number of different carbines chamberred for either the .357 or .44 Mags. IIRC, Ruger had a Model 77 in .44 Mag. don't know if they still do. and they have a semi-auto in that also. I think I've seen a pump action (gallery-style) long arm in .357, too, but Idon't know where...

I've been giving some thought to a Winchester Model 94 "trapper" in .44 Magnum. A friend of mine got a Model 94 last December, I think in a 21" barrel and he seems to like it.

Take care!

Hawkeye

[popplecop]

I have the combinations in both 357 and 44. If I were to have one for just general plinking and an occassional varmit, it would be the 357. Both of my carbines are in Marlin 1894s, they are accurat enough out to 100 yds, and some stumps on hillsides have subcomed at greater distances. 357 flatter shooting, Have killed deer with both rifles.

[MarkL]

These carbines tend to be relatively light and have no recoil pad, so they may not be as pleasant to shoot as you'd expect. If you will hunt with it, get a 44 Mag. If not, the .357. My son killed a deer with my .357 carbine last season, but I wish I had a .44 for hogs.

[GoodOlBoy]

I prefere (as many know) the 45 colt guns, however given what you have stated as your reasons my suggestion really would be the 357. It has less kick so you get more enjoyment for longer (although none of the pistol caliber rifles/carbines REALLY has any kick) And, probably the most important, there are a million and one companies that make good 357 ammo at good prices. I would in no way feel underpowered hunting most small to medium game, or using the gun for home defense. I would be wary using it for feral hogs unless you were using 158gr or heavier bullets, of which my preference would be a 158gr Keith style bullet. For deer, just about any good load should be fine so long as you are keeping in mind your range limitations (IE don't shoot at it at 250 yards with this gun) and use logical bullet choices (IE don't use glasser rounds) For paper. . . . . 38 special to 357 take your pick so long as the gun will feed and chamber without issue.

Enjoy, and let us know which one ya pick up.

GoodOlBoy

[anilowrie]

GoodOlBoy - You have brought up a point that I hadn't touch on - home defence . These would be fine at home defense . Chances are , nothing will ever happen . But if some shmuck is holding my daughter down the hallway , the 12 ga. under my bed isn't the best option . Thanks

[GoodOlBoy]

I am a big fan of the one gun theory (IE one gun fer everything) problem is it is backwards. Instead of one gun for everything all my guns should be able to do anything I need them to. . . .

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

I ran matches for many years. We had an event called Cowboy Silhouette. Used lever guns and single shots, rimmed cartridges only, on handgun steel critters, out to 200 meters.

I got to see a lot of lever guns in pistol cartridges shot by some good and not so good shooters. The best to shoot and the most accurate was the 357. After 40 rounds, the 45 and 44 just beat up the shooter to no end. The 357 shooter was still smiling and was still whacking away.

The little Marlin is great and a tip off scope mount with a 2x or so scope is a real winner.

Oh, and if you reload, you are not stuck with pistol bullets and pistol velocities. The 180 and 200 gr rifle bullets in a 357 rifle do work good. You just need to watch the OAL in a lever gun, so they will function through the action.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

Not to deny you Ed, but I shoot a 45 LC lever, and unless I am using REALLY hot loads you can't even feel the thump. On cowboy loads you wouldn't even know it went off if it didn't make noise. As for accuracy one of the reasons 357 would have been more accurate is IF your guys WERE using suped up loads then they would begin to flinch after awhile and their accuracy would go to pot. I know of at least one feller on here that shoots a Marlin in 45LC and I would put his accuracy against ANY pistol caliber shooter.

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

Goodol Boy,
Sorry to be gone so long but have been busy with finishing up a new rifle and a storm and I forgot, dad gum CRS.

Oh, yes, pistol chambered carbines, that what we were talking about.

Not saying that there aren't any, but I have not seen a 45 or 44 that was as accurate as a 357. I can not really recall seeing either of the two that was real close to the 357, best loads compared to best loads.

The one thing that the 357 has over the other two is the ability to use rifle bullets in a rifle. If a reloader knows which end is up, a 357 mag with a 200 Remington or 180 Hornady can easily be shot in a carbine. Loaded correctly the bullets are capable of outstanding accuracy and serious performance.

In the Cowboy Silhouettes (nothing like SASS), the targets must be knocked off the stand to count. The pig at 100 weighs 35 lbs and the ram at 200 weighs 50 lbs. Recoil is a definate consideration. But the 357 with a 200 is up to the task and shoots sub MOA. Usually a 45 does not return for a second match and a 44 might get three trips. The 357s soon take over the match in the Marlins and 94s. But, when the Martinis show up every body goes to the house. The hammer guns just have a hard time keeping up with the lock time of the Martini. I have a 357 Super Mag that I built on a Martini Cadet action. It will shoot sub 1/2 inch groups with a 200 at 2,000 + fps. It is a tough little package with its 16 inch barrel.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

One thing that has dawned on me since we last spoke Ed is sights. All things considered unless your shooter purchased a Marlin rifle, the sights in general on the 45's and 44's tend to suck badly. I replaced my rear sight on my Rossi quite a few years back with a Marbles semibuckhorn rear sight. Most of the Marlins I have seen come with this as a default configuration. This cut my groups down staggeringly.

Also keep in mind that many people know very little about custom loading, I cannot count the number of guys at the range that push their loads right to the max, and cannot understand why my loads, or my dads loads which are NOT max shoot tighter better groups. Many people just don't grasp that each gun perferes a particular type of powder, type of bullet, speed, etc and the WHOLE purpose of handloading (besides trying to save money) is to address this issue.

I will grant you that with out of the box factory ammo 357s TEND to shoot better groups, but again this is not always the case in my experience.

As for the rifle bullet advantage you mentioned I really don't see the advantage. In my 45 I can shoot anything from a 180 grain all the way up to a 360grain GC LFN (which is actually a bit TOO big since it is a 454 dia and while it works well in some blackhawks I prefere not to push it and stick with the 452 dia bullets in my 45 colts). My rifle preferes 250grain RNFP .452 dia laser cast bullets over bullseye powder, although I still have not gotten to try their 300grain FP. I am also currently working with that same bullet over unique powder trying to come up with a load and it looks VERY promising for accuracy. Yet again, my Rossi actually shoots much better if I back off from the max load depending on the powder. My dads Marlin actually seems to like them a little hotter, but again not at max load.

As for lock time that is possible, but as slick as my Rossi is, and as slick as Dad's marlin is lock time would be meassure in thousandths of a second difference, and since accuracy tends to count more than time in most shoots I have been in I don't see the advantage, but then again that is me.

Barrel length is always a factor. Bulletpusher's longer Marlin barrel outshoots my Rossi's shorter carbine barrel any day of the week, particularly out beyond 100 yards. Not to mention the shooter is a factor. Bulletpusher tends to outshoot me on just about anything that goes bang.

Anyway I look forward to your reply, this is one of the best pistol caliber carbine conversations I have gotten to have in awhile, and I am enjoying it quite a bit.

I would like to hear more about rifle bullets in the 357 it sounds very interesting (and sounds like something The Mad Reloader would do :D )

GoodOlBoy

[anilowrie]

I'm also interested in the the rifle bullets for the .357 cartridge . What else could you tell me about them ? Also , I'm not familiar with the rifle you have posted the picture of - I consider myself pretty highly knowledgable about most firearms . This is a beutifull rifle . Where do you find one like it ? Thank you .

[Rapier]

Hey guys, sorry to be so long in getting back to you, business called, family visiting Florida, am in the middle of re-roofing our office building (remodeling by hurricane) and am redoing our landscape at the house, if I were a twin, we would both be busy.

First let me explain how this comes about. I have spent well over 20 years shooting handgun silhouettes in competition. The majority of the 20 years has been spent as an organization official. I have written 3 published articles on the 357 as used in handgun silhouette competition. I hold several titles, including a 1980s international revolver cast bullet championship shot with a 357 using the 200-grain RCBS cast bullet.

I cannot stress enough that this data is intended for the advanced reloader. Any maximum loads are just that and, as with all maximum loads, should be approached with caution and worked up to. Do not ever start with a maximum load. All information is based on use in modern heavy frame firearms that are in excellent condition. You should also know something about the original 357 Magnum and its original standard factury loading.

It is very common in silhouette shooting to use rifle bullets in a handgun. For rifles chambered using pistol cartridges, it is natural to simply return, to the rifle, that which you use in the handgun. Very few "tough" jacketed handgun bullets are suitable for hunting, they simply do not expand, for example, the very accurate, but not suitable for hunting, 170 grain 357 Sierra FMJ.

I believe in big and slow VS fast and light. This belief is based on years of shooting, hunting, directing matches, seeing hunting results and discussing results with hunters. Your experience may be different, that is OK too. There are two rifle bullet weights that work real well in a 357 as a loading for a single shot or a revolver, the 180-grain and the 200-grain bullet. Speer makes a fine 180-grain FBFP rifle bullet. Hornady makes the 180 FBSP (not the single shot pistol bullet), which I like real well. The 200-grain bullet of choice is the Remington RN bulk bullet, cheap and effective. The 200 is made for cartridges such as the 35 Remington and is designed to expand at moderate velocities. Two other bullets as cast offerings are excellent, the 200 RCBS FP rifle and the 180 RCBS. Both bullets are gas checked and are very accurate.

The drill, from front to back, end to end, is OAL when loading for a carbine. You must seat the rifle bullet deep in the case to achieve a length that will chamber and eject. Ejection is the critical point. You must be able to unload without firing. You might find it impossible to feed a 200 through your action, but it will be possible to load through the port as a single shot and eject the loaded round when it will not feed in the action. Your cartridge gauge is a revolver cylinder. All of my loads are set up to work in a Colt Python, which I shot in competition for 12 years. The OAL should be 1.575 based on my notes and the dummy rounds in the desk. Your OAL might be a little less. The OAL is a reflex length, it expands once the pressure is released on the ram, yes, it is highly compressed, and yes it is perfectly safe as this is the method used by many steel shooters for many years, prior to the appearance of the long 357 Super Magnum chambers. The 357 SM chambers allow for a much longer OAL when the 357 Magnum brass is used with a rifle bullet, a very nice combination.

The feed mechanism of the carbine is set up to feed pistol length cartridges. If you are using a 357 rifle, start with an OAL for a loaded cartridge that will at least clear the cylinder face of a revolver.... nothing else is important. When you do this, if the brass is to thick, it will bulge the case web at the bullet base, especially with a 200. The best brass I have found for this load process is WW or Midway brass, brass. Nickel brass, except for very old runs (over 15 years old), is too thick. If you bulge the web, you can feel it with your thumb. If you bulge the web very much the round may not chamber. Again, use a revolver cylinder as a gauge. If the round will chamber in the revolver, it most likely will chamber in the rifle. Do not force a bulged round, I guarantee it will stick in the chamber. Cases must be the same length to assure OAL, crimp and bulge deminsions.

Crimping the bullet over the ogive is necessary to retain the length and powder compression. A very hard crimp is the rule. I use two different crimping dies, a profile and a roll crimp. You can try one or both. If you use just one, try the roll crimp first. They also make a combo, profile and roll die that works pretty well.

I have tried various powders for this loading; the best results were with H-110. Unlike what you are told in the new manuals and lawyer-instigated loadings, H-110 shoots in two places, its top and its bottom. What those two points are depends on "remaining" capacity as established by bullet length and OAL.

Example: The 357 Magnum in a Super Magnum cylinder or single shot shoots at a bottom of 16 grains. In such a loading the bullet is crimped in the groove or on the cannelure. The 200 grain 357 Magnum revolver load shoots OK at its bottom of 12 grains. 12 grains is the new book max load in several manuals that list a load for a 200 in a 357 Magnum. Let us say that the actual max loadings are considerably more than listed.

I would recommend that you start the process by finding a maximum OAL for your carbine. Once you determine the OAL, I would start load development with a 200 grain RN at 11 grains and work up. The 180 is strait forward, arrive at an OAL, crimp over the ogive and begin at 12 grains. For a lever gun I would stick with the 200.

The 357 magnum loaded with a 200 RN in a little carbine is a very effective deer gun for a youngster or petite female. The recoil is very manageable and the energy is substantial for such a small package. I have seen a 200 RN 357 Mag take a 250 pound wild boar through the left shoulder, breaking the joint, four inched of leg bone and then make a golf ball size bulge on the right plate.

The photo is a gun that “could not be built,” a Martini Cadet in 357 Super Mag. I built two of them, the second is still not finished. I was told that the 357 SM was to long for the little Martini to chamber the round. I wanted a 357 SM Martini, so I built one. The problem is length, because of the way a cartridge is loaded into the Martini chamber. The answer is to use rifle bullets and not flat nose pistol bullets. The exposed strait side of pistol bullets effectively lengthens the case. The ogive of the rifle bullet drops away, immediately, at the case mouth. The barrel is 16 inches long, the stock is fiddle back maple. The scope is a Hakko 6x24x56. The gun shoots sub .5 inch groups at 100 and with a 180 Hornady maxes out at 2,140 fps.

The proof is in the pudding, first time to the woods, the little Cadet with the 180 dropped a deer at 50 yards, one shot, deer hit the ground, kicked twice, finis.

[anilowrie]

Thank you for sharing some of your wisdom . Thats a hell of a fine rifle you made , you should be proud .

[GoodOlBoy]

Pardon the dumb question but unless I misread (which can happen my glasses need to be changed badly) I failed to spot the rifle buller in there.

I agree 180 and 200 grain 357 bullets do work well for plinking, protection, and small game (Shoot mine from a 6" barreled GP100) For some reason though my GP seems to prefere 125grain golden sabers for the best groups. . . . I dunno why.

As for big and slow VS fast and light. I go with big and slow every time. It's part of being a 45 colt nut. I prefere anywhere from the 250 grain all the way up to the 300 grain bullets in mine. We had a few 270 grain keiths we worked with that worked pretty well, but we were not getting the accuracy we were from the 250 grain Lasercast RNFPs. IE groups were noiceably larger and it pretty well didn't make a dang which powder/primer we used. 300 Grain Hornady XTP mags did very well, however, and we are still looking around for more loads and bullets.

Still all in all thats a nice carbine you have. I prefere a good old fashioned lever gun, but then again thats just me and to each his own. It's still a darned nice lookin' piece of equipment.

My own list of experiences and titles is none to grand, but I have never failed to bring meat to the table when I wanted, or needed to. And while bulletpusher and Slim-Zippy may outshoot me most days, I am sure someday when they are both blind as a bat and in wheel chairs I will be able to outshoot them . . . . . :D

GoodOlBoy

[Rapier]

I am sorry; I do not get back to threads very often as I have many irons and too many fires.:D

Goodoldboy,
In my post there was but one true pistol bullet mentioned, that was the 170 Sierra. The 180 RCBS is a rifle and pistol bullet, the 200 RCBS is a rifle bullet, the 180 Hornady SP is a rifle bullet and the 200 Remington is a rifle bullet. My reference to revolvers was intended to give the information that the intended OAL for a carbine, based on the revolver, was attainable. Sorry that the reference confused anyone. No you do not need glasses, if you missed it, I did not write it clearly.

It hurts me to say this (I am an RCA member) but, here goes, the GP is not known as a very accurate 357. The barrels are known to be of poor quality with almost non-existent QC. I have owned six GPs, none shot and two were found to have oblong bores about midway down the barrel. Several smiths I know have had the same experience with more guns than I. My comment is not about your choice of a revolver, it is about the gun itself and the GP being the basis of anyone's opinion regarding the 357 as a hunting or heavy bullet cartridge. The GP should not be the basis for any opinion except about a GP.

If you ever have the opportunity you should try a good accurate 357, like a Freedom Arms. The FA is amazing, especially the 353. The 353 will shoot right along with a rifle and handle pressures that boggle the mind. The difference between a GP and a FA is the difference between a 1962 VW Beatle and a F-16. They are only similar in that both have wheels or cylinders as the case may be.:)

You might enjoy reading the following info about the 357 by Paco Kelly:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:gP4fiEaAmSkJ:sixgunner.com/old_model/backissues/paco/357%2520Heavy.htm

If you would like to know more about the 353, take a look at the articles by John Taffin. As a member of the IHMSA, John did some testing with the 353 as a pre production gun and his results are on his web site.

The 357 is a cartridge that has been overlooked today by many shooters, as a hunting cartridge. However, in the field, with heavy loads, it can be very effective and in a rifle is a good choice for a lad, young lady or the wife.
Ed

[GoodOlBoy]

Thats perfectly alright, we all have other commitments.

You are the second person to tell me they had problems with a GP (the other person claimed that a few dozen of them ordered for a police department didn't shoot etc). My Stainless GP has never done anything but shoot tight consistant, accurate groups. In fact on a good day I can make some very nice clovers at yardage. I wonder if there just hasn't been some bad runs. I have a 6" full barrel shroud GP in stainless btw. Also if there was a problem why not send it back to Ruger? I know the one time I saw an issue with a Ruger (Was on a Vaquero that was shooting right from a bench) they fixed it with a pretty durned quick turn around at no cost to the owner.

When I said it tends to prefere the golden sabers I was reffering to the fact that with the golden sabers (and with SOME runs of the winchester 110grain semi jacketed HPS) I can shoot one hole groups with it on a good day. Other types, weights, etc just don't shoot as well in it. In fact a box of winchester silver tips I had shot a 3 inch group at 25 yards. I thought something might have gone wrong with the gun. I loaded up a cylinder full of the winchester 110 grain bullets, and poof. One hole group. . . . .

Anyway the reason I was wondering about the rifle bullets is because 180 and 200 grain bullets are available for 357 caliber as a standard bullet for custom loads without haveing to go for rifle bullets. So I was confused (Yes I do need glasses btw I am not quite as near sighted as a bat, but danged near it)

GoodOlBoy

PS Glad to see you back for a visit.

[GoodOlBoy]

Quick second response. I did a quick search through my favorite bullet companies and found the following for those wanting heavy 357 bullets.

Laser-cast/trueshot. Up to 180gr.

Leadhead 205 grain silh bullets.

Beartooth. 180, 185, 200, 210 grain 357 bullets.

GoodOlBoy