Real gun or not?

[gd357]

Ok, this has been bugging me for a while, and I can't find anything online, so I'll ask all of you. I've seen a weird gun in a few movies, and it's driving me nuts that I can't confirm if it's real or not. It appears to be a 9mm carbine, but it has 6 barrels and they revolve like a gatling gun. It's most likely a fake, but I figured that if it was made, someone here could enlighten me on it. Thanks

gd357

[fabsroman]

How about letting us know what movies you saw it in. That might help us a little.

[GoodOlBoy]

In the movie Deep Rising for one.

GoodOlBoy

[Rocky Raab]

I don't watch movies, but I did see something like that on TV while I was trying to find something more intellectual to watch.

It's fake.

Real General Electric Mini-guns fire the .308 cartridge (actually the 7.62 NATO). The guns weigh almost 200 pounds and are electrically operated.

Movie version? I didn't see any power cables and it looked like it weighed twenty pounds or so.

There's also the tiny little details of ammo feed and recoil. If it fires 6,000 rounds a minute, a five-second burst burns 500 cartridges. You see your hero hefting that many? How about the feed belts?

Oh, and recoil. One 308 from the hip - no sweat. 500? Yeah, right.

BTW, yup, I HAVE fired one for real. It was mounted in a helo door. Cambodia, 1971. Ruined the day of a gomer with an SKS - big time.

[skeet]

Have seen a gun ship with 5 GE guns in it...way back in 1967 i think it was...in a C-117 if I remember correctly.. It had ammo trays or whatever you would call them. 10 second burst lightened the load considerably. Just the brass falling out of the plane woulda had to hurt if it hit ya. BTW it was awesome to see fired at night. Looked like a river of fire you could almost walk on.:eek:

[gumpokc]

there is a 5.56 minigun as well, but i've never heard of a 9mm one.

i suppose it could be done, but why? it's probably just a movieprop.

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

You should see the video of the AC-130 gunship firing at night. Now that looks like a river of fire. I saw it several years ago in an e-mail when we were in Afghanistan. Wish I could find it again.

[gd357]

I did see it most recently in Deep Rising (seemed like all of the characters had one) while channel surfing. It wasn't similar in design to a minigun, more along the lines of a short carbine. I couldn't be certain, but I believe it was supposedly a clip-fed weapon. I really doubted the reality of such a weapon, although the design could theoretically work IF it was a gas-operated system (and I'd hate to think how complex that would have to be for such a compact firearm).

Rocky, I think you're talking about a different gun, probably the one that they used in Predator (or very similar). Dad's got a few slides from 'Nam, and it's very evident that no person on earth could handle something of that size. I can certainly imagine that something with that rate of fire would pretty much ruin the day of anything it had to. Definitely rather be the one shooting it that being on the receiving end.

gd357

[Rocky Raab]

Fabs, that is a spectacular video clip of which you speak. But keep in mind that they only have a tracer in every FIFTH round. So that river of fire is actually five times as dense as it looks.

gd357, I stand corrected if there was/is a 5.56 version. The minis that were installed in the C-47 Puff the Magic Dragon (3 guns) and C-119 Spectre (5 guns) planes were 7.62 versions for certain.

I've also seen and flown in a C-130 Spooky gun ship. It was an early model with two 7.62 minis, two 20mm Gatlings and two 40mm Bofors cannon. Later models had two 20mm, a single 40 and a 105 howitzer!

From the ground, when one of these planes opens up, there is absolutely no warning. The ground just erupts like a deluge of rain on a pond, but the raindrops explode like mini-grenades (this from the 20mms). You don't hear the muzzle blast until after it's over, and that sound is like the moans of hell. It's appropriate.

[GoodOlBoy]

I remember reading somewhere there was a guy in New York or Chicago a few years back that was arrested after taking the plans to build a 22LR gatling gun, increasing the mag capacity and dropping a electric motor on it. POOF Instant (not quite) minigun.

in 22 it would sound like ALOT of fun(look out squirrels!).

GoodOlBoy

[BILLY D.]

HI GUYS

THERE WERE FOUR GUNSHIPS DURING THE VIETNAM ERA. C47, SPOOKY OR PUFF TAKE YOUR PICK, 3 MINI GATLINGS, 7,62, NEXT CAME THE SHADOW, AC-119 G, 4 MINI GATLINGS, NEXT CAME THE AC-119K, STINGER, 4 MINI GATLINGS, 2 20MM, GATLINGS. NEXT WAS THE PREMIER GUNSHIP THE AC-130 SPECTRE. THE SPECTRE HAD THE BIGGEST VARIETY OF GUNS, FROM 20MM GATLINGS, 40MM POM-POMS AND THE HOWITZER.

ALSO LET US NOT FORGET OUR FRINDS IN THE HELO'S. THEY AT ONE TIME HAD EVERYTHING FROM M-39'S TO MINI GATLINGS. BUT MOSTLY M-60'S.

I FLEW ON THE SHADOWS, PHAN RANG AB THE STINGERS AT DA NANG AND NKP, RTAB AND THE 107 AHS AT AN KHE, RVN.

THE AC-119'S WERE MY FAVORITES. SHADOWS MAIN JOB WAS TROOPS IN CONTACT, OR TICS. STINGERS MAIN JOB WAS TRUCK INTERDICTION FROM MU GIA PASS SOUTH THROUGH LAOS AND CAMBODIA. WE WERE THE HIGHWAY PATROL OF SOUTHEAST ASIA. MANY TRUCK DRIVERS FOUND EARLY RETIREMENT BECAUSE OF US AND THE REST WERE REAL NERVOUS.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFO ON THE AC- 119'S THE HAVE A WEB SITE AT www.ac-119gunships.com. VERY INTERESTING READING.

I AM VERY PROUD TO HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF SERVING WITH THOSE OUTFITS AND THANKFUL I AM STILL ALIVE. AT LEAST THE LAST TIME I CHECKED I WAS. I GOT VENTILATED TWICE BUT NOTHING SERIOUS.

THE AHS HAS A WEB SITE AND SO DO SPECTRES BUT I DON'T HAVE DIRECTIONS.

[Rocky Raab]

I seem to be all confuserized today.

Thanks to Billy, for taking the time to give us the RIGHT info.

[muledeer]

The M-61 Gatling gun (20mm) had a max fire rate on 6,000rds per min was tuned down to 4,000 rds to help on barrel heating. The VC thought we were firing a lazer beam.
muledeer

[fabsroman]

It is hard to believe that a person needs 80 rounds a second to hit a target, but I guess it takes care of shaky hands problem.

Seems as though the guns on the AC-130 are computer guided now. Anybody know if I am correct about that?

[BILLY D.]

MULEDEER AND FABS

MD. LIKE ANY FIREARM AND BARREL THE GATLING WAS SUBJECTED TO THE SAME STRAINS. ON THE STINGER STRINGS WERE LIMITED TO 600 ROUNDS. A GOOD PILOT COULD ROLL IN ON A TRUCK AND GET THE JOB DONE WITH 25 TO 50 ROUNDS. MY PILOT COULD ALWAYS GET A 20 TO 25 ROUND BURST. HE WAS THE BEST I EVER SEEN AT IT. THAT GUY WAS COOL AS A CUCUMBER.

ANOTHER REASON FOR LIMITING LENGTH OF BURST WAS THE LITTLE WIDGET THAT HELD THE BARRELS TOGETHER. IF THE BARRELS GOT TOO HOT THEY WARPED AND THE BARREL BAND COULD DEPART THE AREA IN A HURRY. WE HAD AN INCIDENT ONE NIGHT OVER THE PLAIN DE JARS WHERE OUR ILLUSTRIOUS AIRCRAFT COMMANDER NOT OUR REGULAR PILOT, FIRED A 900 ROUND BURST AND THE BARREL BAND LEFT AND CREATED SOME HAVOC. THE GUN PROCEEDED TO FIRE AND RIPPED IT SELF FROM IT'S MOUNTS BEFORE ONE OF US GUYS COULD GET TO THE BOX AND SHUT IT OFF. THERE WERE ALSO HOT ROUNDS GOING OFF IN THE CARGO COMPARTMENT. THERE WERE 5 OF US BACK THERE, 3 GUNNERS, AN ILLUMINATOR OPERATOR, AND A NIGHT OBSERVATION SIGHT OPERATOR. NEEDLESS TO SAY WE WERE SOMEWHAT DISTRAUGHT. MY B GUNNER AND I WERE REARMING THE BACK 20, THE C GUNNER WAS SCANNING FOR AAA ALONG WITH THE ILLUMINATOR OPERATOR. SCANNERS WERE VERRRRRRRRRY IMPORTANT. ALL THE ARAMENT IN THE WORLD DON'T DO YOU ANY GOOD IF YOU GET SNUFFED OUT BY AAA. WE CALLED AN INFLIGHT EMERGENCY AND HEADED BACK TO NKP.

BEING WE ONLY FLEW AT NIGHT WE COULD NOT FULLY ACCESS THE DAMAGE TO THE AIRCRAFT.

WHILE TALKING ABOUT BARREL BANDS THERE WAS A SPOOKY AT PHU CAT IN 67 OR 68 THAT SAWED A BIG PORTION OF THE END OF IT'S WING OFF BECAUSE THE BARREL BAND DEPARTED THE AREA. THE SIX BARRELS JUST OPENED UP IN DIAMETER AND CHEWED IT UP. A TCTO TOOK CARE OF THE PROBLEM, SOMEWHAT. BY THE WAY THAT AIRCRAFT WAS FLOWN BACK TO BASE. A GREAT PIECE OF AIRMANSHIP. IF YOU CARE TO NOTICE ALL THE GUNSHIPS THAT CAME AFTER SPOOKY HAD HIGH WINGS. LIFES A DANCE, WE LEARN AS WE GO.

OUR AIRCRAFT WAS FIXED ALSO, NEW MOUNTS AND KEVLAR IN THE FLOOR, NEW GUN AND DRUM AND NEW FLIGHT SUITS FOR THE GUNNERS, IO AND THE NOS.

OK FABS YOUR TURN.

THE SHADOW WAS THE FIRST GUNSHIP TO USE A COMPUTER FIRING DEVICE USING RADAR AND MATCHING THE TARGET.

THE STINGER WAS THE FIRST TO UTILIZE SIDELOOKING AND FORWARD LOOKING INFRARED RADAR. SLIR AND FLIR. WITH HEAT SEEKING RADAR WE COULD PICK OUT HUMANS, ELEPHANTS AND TRUCKS. PLACED ON A COMPUTER SCREEN IT WAS VERY EASY TO HIT THE TARGET WITH A SHORT BURST. WE USED HIGH EXPLOSIVE INCENDIARY AMMO HEI FOR TRUCKS BUT WE ALSO CARRIED ARMOR PIERCING INCENDIARY, API, FOR THE HEAVY STUFF. ONLY PROBLEM WAS WE ALWAYS LOADED THE GUN FIRST WITH HEI BECUASE THAT WAS OUR PRIMARY MISSION. WE COULD UNLOAD A DRUM OF 1200 ROUNDS REBELT IT AND RELOAD FOR API IF NEED BE. WHILE WE WERE DOING THIS THE PILOT WOULD PULL OFF THE TARGET AREA AND THE REST OF THE CREW WOULD SIT AROUND PICKING THEIR NOSE TILL WE GOT DONE. THATS ALL THEY COULD DO. THAT IS STRICTLY A TWO MAN JOB LIKE IT OR NOT.

I CAN NOT PERSONALLY ATTEST TO THE FIRE CONTROL SYSTEM ON THE SPECTRE, I KNOW IN SOME WAYS IT IS VASTLY SUPERIOR TO THE ONE WE HAD IN THE STINGER. BUT THE BASICS ARE THE SAME.

YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW WHY YOU NEEDED 80 ROUNDS A SECOND TO HIT. WELL REMEMBER LITTLE GOMER ON THE GROUND IS PEDALING A** AS FAST HE CAN YOU ARE IN AN ORBIT AT 5K AGL YOU'RE DODGING AAA THE WIND IS BLOWING YOU AROUND SO YOU'RE DEGREE OF DIFFICULTY IS QUITE HIGH. ALSO DEPENDING ON THE AMOUNT OF AAA IN THE AREA SOMETIMES WE HAD TO FLY AT 8K AGL TO KEEP FROM GETTING HIT. ALSO REMEMBER THERE WERE 10 SOB, THATS NOT WHAT YOU THINK, IT'S SOULS ON BOARD, AND WE HAD FAMILIES TO GO BACK TO. WE TOOK OUR JOB SERIOUSLY. EVERYBODY HAD TO DEPEND ON EVERYBODY ELSE.

ONE NIGHT ON THE PLAINS DE JARS WE KILLED 26 TRUCKS WITH 1100 RDS. THATS DAMN GOOD SHOOTING PARDNER.

BY THE WAY THE NOS SIGHT IS A MODIFIED STARSCOPE THAT IS WIRED INTO THE COMPUTER FIRING SYSTEM , IT WORKED OFF A 2 MILLION CANDLEPOWER INFRARED LIGHT IN THE AFT CARGO COMPARTMENT. THERE WAS ALSO A 2M CP WHITE LIGHT WE COULD USE FOR TIC MISSIONS ALSO. THE GUYS ON THE GROUND LOVED IT. THEY COULD FINALLY READ THEIR PLAYBOY MAGS.;)

SORRY TO PUT YOU ALL TO SLEEP, IT'S JUST SOMETHING I ENJOY TALKING ABOUT AND AM VEEEEEEERY PROUD OF.

[fabsroman]

That was actually pretty interesting. Didn't know that you guys were firing from that far up.

Next question, are you firing practically straight down? I would assume that a bullet would lose a ton of velocity at 8,000 meters.

[BILLY D.]

FABS 160KTS AT 40 DEGREES. 100# AMMO CN NOW WEIGHS 400#, WHY GUNNERS KNUCKLES DRAGGED ON THE GROUND. :D

[fabsroman]

Okay, I understand what the 40 degrees means, but what does the 160 KTS mean. Is that 160 knots? If it is knots, then I understand what that means too.

At 8,000 meters, how did you guys compensate for bullet drop or did the computer take care of that? Hell, how did you compensate for lead?

[gumpokc]

Originally posted by gd357
Ok, this has been bugging me for a while, and I can't find anything online, so I'll ask all of you. I've seen a weird gun in a few movies, and it's driving me nuts that I can't confirm if it's real or not. It appears to be a 9mm carbine, but it has 6 barrels and they revolve like a gatling gun. It's most likely a fake, but I figured that if it was made, someone here could enlighten me on it. Thanks

gd357

just checked out the IMDB page for deep rising, it says under trivia that the pirates "pulse guns" were very heavily modified calico m-960's.

[BILLY D.]

FABS

160 IS KNOTS, THE FLIGHT SPEED. I'M SORRY, SOMETIMES I FORGET EVERYBODY IS NOT FAMILIAR WITH TERMINOLOGY, AND I SCREWED UP ANYWAY AND HIT A WRONG KEY, IT'S A 30 DEGREE BANK. I HAVE TO START PROOF READING BETTER.

[BILLY D.]

FABS

OOPS AGAIN, THE COMPUTER TOOK CARE OF LEAD AND DROP. THE ONLY ADJUSTMENT IN THE BACK OF THE AIRCRAFT WAS AN ELEVATION ADJUSTMENT TO THE GUN PODS. THE GUN PLUMBERS AND AVIONICS GUY LINED THAT UP ON THE GROUND. BORE SIGHTING IF YOU WILL.

IT WAS STANGE TO WATCH THE GUNS FIRE AND YOU COULD SEE THE TRACERS GOING TO THE GROUND IN FRONT OF THE AIRCRAFT.

THE AAA REACTED JUST THE OPPOSITE. THE FIRST TIME I HAD TO BE A SCANNER I GOT SICK TO MY STOMACH. EVEN THOUGH I HAD BEEN TRAINED BY A PERSON LOOKING OVER MY SHOULDER AND WE WERE ON INTERCOM TALKING TO EACH OTHER. I WAS SCARED TO DEATH. IT'S A BIG RESPONSIBILITY, LIFE AND DEATH ARE RIDING ON YOUR DECISIONS ALONG WITH A VERY EXPENSIVE AEROSPACE VEHICLE.

I GOT A FUNNY STORY ABOUT AIR SICK AND SCARED, BUT IT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU WANT TO HEAR BEFORE BEDTIME OR UPON WAKING UP.

[gd357]

gumpokc,

Thanks! Kinda wonder whether they were actually functional, or just set up for "movie fire" (I'm not gonna bet that they actually work).

Wow! For all of the great info above and beyond what I was looking for, thanks! I was aware of the 20 and 30mm gatling guns that were used, as well as the miniguns, but had no idea the standard altitude, air speed, etc. they generally saw service under. The 20mm gatling gun also was fitted on the F-4 Phantoms as they initially came eqipped only for missiles and bombs. It was quite a success, and consequently they added the 20mm as standard armament.

gd357

[BILLY D.]

HEY GD

THEY USED TO HAVE AN AC-119K AT THE AIR FORCE MUSEUM AT WRIGHT PAT IN DAYTON. IT HAD QUITE A HISTORY. ON A MISSION IN LAOS ONE NIGHT IT HAD 14 1/2 FOOT OF THE LEADING EDGE OF THE STARBOARD WING SHOT OFF.

WITH MUCH DIFFICULTY AND AIRMANSHIP THE CREW GOT BACK TO THEIR BASE AT NAKHON PHANOM THAILAND. IT WAS A REAL FEAT. THE AIRCRAFT TAIL # WAS 883. AFTER IT WAS REBUILT IT HAD THE BEST RECORD OF A TRUCK KILLER. IN DECEMBER OF 1970 WE SHOT 26 TRUCKS ONE NIGHT AND AS FAR AS I KNOW THAT IS STILL A RECORD FOR A STINGER. THE CREW OF THAT AIRCRAFT WON THE MCKAY TROPHY FOR THEIR OUTSTANDING AIRMANSHIP. A GREAT STORY.

YOU MENTIONED THE F-4. THE GUNPODS THAT WERE USED ON THE F-4 WERE SIMILAR TO THE ONES IN THE GUNSHIPS. ON THE STINGER THE DRUM SIMPLY STOOD UP NEXT TO THE FLOOR MOUNTED M-61 AND WAS BELT FED. ALL ELECTRIC. ON THE F-4 THE GUNPODS WERE WING MOUNTED BY USING A WING PYLON AND STANDARD 14" BOMB RACK. THE NOSE GUN ON THE F-4E WAS A VAST IMPROVEMENT. THE AIR FORCE GOT THE F-4 FROM THE NAVY AND THERE WERE NOT MANY WEAPONS IN THE INVENTORY IT COULD NOT CARRY. THE AIR FORCE TURNED IT INTO A FLYING SMORGASBORD LITERALLY. MULEDEER CAN TELL YOU ALL ABOUT THAT.

THE FIRST GUNSHIPS THAT FLEW SIMPLY HAD SUU GUNPODS MOUNTED ON TOP OF A BOMBRACK AND PLACED ON A STAND AND POKED OUT THE AIRCRAFT WINDOW. SIGHTING DEVICES WERE VERY CRUDE.

GO TO WRIGHT PAT SOMETIME AND CHECK OUT THE AIR FORCE MUSEUM. PLAN ON SPENDING SOME TIME THOUGH. THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS TO SEE. 3 DAYS WOULD BE ABOUT RIGHT.

I'M ORIGINALLY FROM DAYTON. WE MOVED THERE WHEN I WAS A LITTLE GUY, SO I SPENT THE BETTER PART OF MY EARLY LIFE THERE. WE LIVED ABOUT 3 MILES SOUTH OF WRIGHT PAT. WRIGHT FIELD AND PATTERSON FIELD USED TO BE TWO SEPARATE ENTITIES WITH US/OHIO RT 4 SEPARATING THEM. NOW THEY ARE ONE. DAYTON IS RICH IN AVIATION HISTORY. AND OTHER HISTORY AS WELL. NATIONAL CASH REGISTER AND GM USED TO OWN THE TOWN.

WELL GOT TO GIT. HAVE A GOOD ONE.

[Andy L]

Billy,
Thanks for your writing. That is very interesting. You sound like you have had alot of experience. It also sounds if you were in combat alot. Thank you for that. We may not all be here yackin on the net without brave folks like yourself.

Good stories. Keep em coming. :cool:

Andy

[Rocky Raab]

Fabs (and others), just to explain how gunships do their deeds...

Once you find a target (using all the onboard self-contained wizardry or from a known target) the plane orbits at a constant airspeed, altitude and bank angle, with the target at the center of the circle. That minimizes the "lead" problem and allows you to keep a whole lot of steel on target because you aren't simply flying past.

The pilot, who has the trigger on his control yoke, aligns the computer-generated image of the target with the crosshair in his side-looking sight. When it all lines up, he squeezes.

The computer does all the ballistics calculations for the gun and ammo selected, but the crew and pilot need a LOT of coordinated skill to get the firing solution correct. As Billy said, it's pitch black night (the pilot never actually sees the target, just a blip in a black hole), there's turbulence, wind, unknown terrain...and oh yeah...bullets coming back up at you. Sometimes BIG bullets.

That scanner's job? The guy lays down on the open ramp at the rear, held in by one strap (no parachute - if it accidentally opened, the scanner would be torn in half) and airsurfing on the slipstream. Only the rushing air holds him up, because the edge of the ramp is somewhere below his bellybutton.

Oh, did he mention he's bouncing back there in the pitch black, nothing holding him up but air, and he's pointed backwards? As in 175 mph air UP your nose?

And his job is to see when the big anti-air cannons open up - or a SAM gets launched - and to call out evasive directions to the pilot. Except that since he's going backwards, left is right and it's so dark he never really knows where "down" is? Fun job.

I did it once, for about ten minutes and only over the Gulf of Mexico - but I'll salute the guys like Billy who did it for real. And mean it.

[BILLY D.]

ANDY

I NEVER TALKED ABOUT THIS VIETNAM WAR SUBJECT UNTIL I GOT ON THIS FORUM AND SOMEBODY SAID SOMETHING THAT REALLY SET MY SHORTS ON FIRE. I CAN'T RECALL WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT NOW. AND IT REALLY WASN'T ALL THAT IMPORTANT.

I SPENT ALMOST 5 YEARS IN SOUTH EAST ASIA. ONE AS A GENERALS ENLISTED AIDE. SOFT JOB, HE WAS AN AIR ATTATCHE IN THE EMBASSY IN VIENTIENNE LAOS. I WAS HIS COOK, BOTTLE WASHER, DRIVER AND BODY GUARD. GOT SOME FREE TRAINING AT QUANTICO OUT OF IT.

YOU TALK OF BRAVERY, I WASN'T BRAVE OR DIDN'T CONSIDER MYSELF TO BE, AS EVIDENCED BY MY POST ABOVE, WHEN I BLEW LUNCH ALL OVER LAOS BECAUSE I WAS SCARED. I HAVE TEETH, HAIR, GUTS, BRAINS AND BLOOD JUST LIKE ANY OTHER MORTAL. I DID WHAT I GOT PAYED TO DO.

NOW IF YOU WANT TO TALK ABOUT HEROES AND BRAVERY THAT HAD TO BE MY WIFE. WHILE I WAS AWAY SHE HAD TO BE MOM AND DAD TO A HOUSEFUL OF KIDS, KEEP THE HOUSE REPAIRED, RUN KIDS ALL OVER HELL AND HALF GEORGIA, REPAIR THE CAR ETC ALL BY HERSELF. SHE WAS MY HERO.

I SPENT A LITTLE OVER 2 1/2 YEARS ON AIRCREW DUTIES FLYING ON BOTH STINGERS AND HELOS AS AN AERIAL GUNNER.

THE REST OF THE TIME I WAS AN AIR FORCE RAMP RAT. LOADED MUNITIONS ON AIRCRAFT.

I SERVED IN THE MILITARY FOR 27 YEARS AND LOVED EVERY MINUTE OF IT. I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING. IT WAS A PAYBACK ANYWAY SO I DIDN'T LOOK AT IT AS JOB. IT WAS FOR WHAT THE UNITED STATES GAVE MY FAMILY AND I. FREEDOM FROM OPPRESSION.

I FEEL THAT I SHOULD APOLOGIZE TO GOOD OLD BOY FOR STEALING HIS THREAD. THANK YOU MY FRIEND. I SEE YOU FOUND WHAT YOU WERE SEEKING. I'M GLAD OF THAT. I GUESS THE END JUSTIFIES THE MEANS. BUT MY APOLOGY STILL STANDS.

THANKS.