Snake Bite For Dogs

[gspsonny03]

I just watched a Pheasant hunt that was shot in SD. There was a number of guys and a number of dogs. During this hunt they run across a rattlesnake. Now anyone who has done any type of birdhunting with dogs knows how naturally curious dogs can be with something unknown, such as that rattling sound coming out of the tall grass. Now to the best of my knowledge none of the dogs in the show got bit, but they did do an informational bit on how to take care of your dog if that should happen. One of the hunters happened to be a Vet. The questions were directed to him. He said that the majority of snake bites to dogs are nonlethal. Now people don't mistake what I'm saying here, you still need to get your dog to the vet ASAP. He recommended a tourniquet if on the leg, off and on every 5 minutes plus ICE directly above and on the wound to help slow the venom. Common sense will tell you to quiet your dog and make him slow down to a walk, or if possible pack him back to the vehicle, and to the Vet as quick as possible. A lot of times dogs will take a hit to the face. You all know you can't use a tourniquet here but you can pack the area with ICE, and again to the VET. This is all the more reason to carry a First-aid kit for dogs. If you don't have one you really should think about getting one. I've never had occasion to use mine other than pliers to pull quills out of my dog and sometimes I forget to take it along, but they do come in handy and who knows, sometime you may need something out of it yourself. Anyway if any of you out there happen to know more about treating snakebites than what I listed here, feel free to help the rest of us out.

[Nulle]

I carry a syreng with me to suck out the infected area and follow the above recomendations.

[gspsonny03]

Ok, now I'm a little confused. I got my first aid manual out for dogs and cats, This was written by Mark L. Anderson, DVM. He said pretty much the same thing that I posted before EXCEPT, PLEASE NOTE:" Do not cut the wound and suck out the venom.(DUH) Also, do not tie a tourniquet around a stricken limb or place ice on the affected area. ". I posted the original post to be informative and to try and help anyone with a potential problem, but now I find myself in a situation of possibly giving bad information. So people, before you follow someone else's advice maybe it would be a good thing to check with your local Vet and hear what he has to say. Keep in mind the original post was also from a Vet. It would be nice if you could get two different Vets to agree on something, but I guess they are no different than we are, if you get a group of people together, you are going to get more then one opinion. Anyway sorry for any confusion this may have created. I would not intentionally post anything that might harm someone's pet or companion. Sorry.

[fabsroman]

Shoot the snake before it gets your dog.

By the way, I understand that shooting the snake is not always possible, but I surely would try. I also understand that upland dogs are usually running pretty far from their handlers, so there might be absolutely no chance to shoot the snake.

Personally, I hate snakes and probably would never hunt where poisonous snakes may be present.

[myEspringr]

:( dang , now i have to erase that info from my mind and start over again. lol. actully i have kinda been wonderin' about this subject, i'm plannin' on goin' out to western nebraska to dove and grouse hunt this year and there are rattlers in the area. i'm def. going to have locate the nearest vet in the area just in case something happens while the dogs and i are out.

[gspsonny03]

Fabs:

If you have no intentions of hunting where there are poisonous snakes, then you are going to miss out on a lot of hunting. To the best of my knowledge there are poisonous snakes in all the US, albeit mostly in the South and the West. I thought I read one of your posts where you said you wanted to hunt South Dakota? They have their share of these snakes as Nulle can probably testify. I have personally hunted Wyoming for 28 years and have maybe run across a dozen rattlesnakes in all that time, and have never run across one while hunting with my dog. It's just something that you need to be aware of while hunting. It could happen.

myEspringr:

Sorry about the info, but like I said both men were Vets, It's just who do you believe? Where in West NE. are you planning to hunt? I lived their for five years and never had much problem with snakes. That's not to say they aren't there, but I never seen any. ScottsBluff has a fairly decent Vet clinic, or at least did have when I lived there.

[Lilred]

We dont have rattlers here, but we have moccassins, cottonmouths, ring snakes and so forth. I have (and my Pa too as fer as I know) only lost 1 dog to a snake, and the snake suffocated the dog..well..he wrapped around the beagle and "squeezed" him to death. I shot the snake 3 times with buckshot. Yeah, the first one killt him..but that wont the point.

Rattlers are probaly different..but I've always heard to tie off the spot (like the top of the leg if the dog got bit in the bottom of the leg) and take em to the vet. I caint say I've ever heared tell of any sort of anti-venom for dogs either..so what good would it do you if you did git him to a vet?
Would be interestin info fer sure..cause i sure aint got the answers..

[huntingvet]

I am a small animal veterinarian. As far as I was trained I would recommend the following:

1) Consult with a good dog trainer and consider having your dog "rattlesnake" trained. They train dogs to be leary of anything making that kind of noise. I've seen dogs flinch with bugs fly by their heads if they make a buzzing sound. It seems to be a good preventative.

2) There is a company that has recently developed, marketed and distributed a rattlesnake vaccine. This vaccine is probably available thru your local small animal veterinarian. I personally cannot vouch for it safety or effectiveness. The package insert states that a bitten pet, vaccinated or not, still needs to seek immediate veterinary attention. If you ask my opinion, I'd say avoid the vaccine.

3) Do not apply tourniquets. I cannot speak for other poisonous snake bites, but a bite from a rattlesnake causes among other things tissue necrosis. By applying a tourniquet you would only accelerate that process.

4) The best thing you can do following a snake bite is get your dog to a vet ASAP. Antivenin therapy, although expensive initially, is worth its weight in gold. The original post is correct in that most snake bites in dogs are nonlethal since they appear to be less susceptible than humans, but prompt attention is still VERY important.

Hope this clarifies things for you all.

[myEspringr]

vet ,that is good info , a little info goes a long ways.

as far as where in western nebraska i'm plannin' around the valentine area.

[quigleysharps4570]

I've seen dogs get it in the face by these little prarie rattlers around here...head will swell up like a watermelon. But...it's always alright in a few days. Like was said, they're less susceptible than humans. Sure can't see making a vets house or car payment for him when it will turn out alright.

[gspsonny03]

myEspringr: I used to fish the Calumus (spelling?) for Northern Pike, before the G&F ruined the lake. Man that was a blast. Always wanted to hunt up there, looked like good bird hunting, but I never got around to it. You are right though, the Sandhill area can hold a few rattlesnakes. I lived just south of North Platte when I was growing up, so I know the area somewhat. Lots of luck to you in your hunts up there.

quigleysharps: Don't mean to sound critical, but I like to think that I care more for my dog than that. I understand what you're saying about paying that kind of money, but you can use the same kind of analogy with hunting partners. If one was to break a leg, you know that he will probably live. It might not set straight, but chances of it being lethal are pretty slim so why pay the Dr.'s all those big bucks to set it. I also understand some people's feelings about their dogs just being pets and machines to hunt with, but I think the majority of people on here look at their dogs as something more than that. JMO.


:)

[myEspringr]

GSP growin up we we would hunt calumus , but it was for deer. dad and i went to mckelvie last year to do some scouting, to plan for deer this year. then the better half got pregnant , take a guess when the baby is due. yep nov. guess it will be next year for deer. that's kinda why i'd like to get up in the area for birds might be awhile before i'll be able to be that far from home.

[Lilred]

Sonny..I dont quite think ole quigley there meant no harm. Ya see..it's in the experiences that ya learn from. (Well..some folks dont even do that..hence the excessive gooberism that plagues the earth..lol) But, most normal folks do.
It is from my experience, that iffin my dog would git bit by a ring snake, he would not be too happy about it, but a few aspirin and a few days later..he's as good as gold. There are some situations that without a doubt require a vet's attention..like the 1 I had w/ my pointer.
Do not fer nary an instant think that a vet aint there to make money. There are some good as gold vets who are not only good at what they do, but are smart at it..like my vet..Dr. Gates. He's in his 60's..but he's plain, simple..and dont throw you through the barrage to sellin his crap.
But there are some..who will make you think you need everything under the sun..and you dont. A dog is a hearty animal..not meek by no means. A good, strong-willed dog can overcome obstacles you would never think a dog can do. And while I surely aint promotin to just let the dog go and have a see-what-happens attitude, but sometimes, a dog is just that. A good ole dog.

Rattlers are a serious issue fer ya'll w/ yer dogs..no doubt bout it. Just be careful out there..I hope nobody's dog has to go thru that.

[gspsonny03]

MyEspringr: You need to plan these things my friend.:D Congrats on the upcoming event. Is it your first?


Lilred: I'm sure quigley didn't mean any harm, that's why I said I didn't mean to sound critical. It's just that I guess my philosophy differs from his. That doesn't mean that he is wrong or that I'm wrong, but if my dog gets snake bit I intend to get him to a vet as quick as possible. I remember when I was a kid, my dad had two German Shepards and they were snake killing machines. Their poor heads were always about the size of basketballs because they were always bit and they lived to be quite old, but did they suffer from that? I'm sure they must have. I'm just not willing to take a chance if I don't have to, that doesn't mean that the Vet won't screw up and kill the dog. I just intend to do what ever I can to lessen the pain. No harm was meant.:)

[fabsroman]

Decisions regarding the caring for dogs vary widely. My parents had a dog for 13 years and that dog never saw the vet. However, he seemed to fair rather well. That is until he had to be put down because he had a raw spot on his hip that was infested with maggots. Of course, it never should have gotten that far. At that time I was just in high school and had no idea what to do, now I know better.

Personally, I will take my dog to the vet as long as I can afford it. If it means not buying another gun, so be it. However, it it means not putting food on the table, the dog will have to suffer. In life, we all have decisions to make.

The previous girlfriend and I would always get into arguments about the amount of money spent on the dogs. Every time they had to go to the vet, it cost $400. With Nitro, it costs me half as much, but that is probably because I go to a different vet instead of the Gucci vet half way across town. She and I got into a pretty good argument because one of the dogs hit an electric fence with his tooth while my dad and I were out hunting with the dog. He was knocked out and went into convulsions, but he got up in 30 seconds, albeit pissed off as hell, and hunted the rest of the day with us. When I got home and told her the story, she wanted to take him to the emergency vet that cost $300 and when she called them they were urging her to bring the dog in. I told her no way, which lead to more argument, but I ended up getting my way. The next time we went to the Gucci vet, she mentioned the issue to the vet and the vet told her that if the dog didn't die then and there, that it would be fine. The emergency vet said that the dog might experience an irregular heart beat and the Gucci vet said that was nonsense. I will say that the Gucci vet was pretty honest.

When one of the dogs passed away from kidney failure, the cost of the treatment and the cost of the cremation and ash ern was well over $400.

Everybody cares for their dogs in a different way and has a different level of income than the other guy. The ex-girlfriend and I disagreed on how the dogs were to be taken care of, but I guarantee that I loved those dogs just as much, if not more, than she loved them. Then again, they might have been the reason why I stayed in that relationship as long as I did (i.e., they were her dogs). I spent more time with them by far between the hunting, training, and hanging out around the house.

[quigleysharps4570]

the cost of the treatment and the cost of the cremation and ash ern was well over $400.


Lordy. :) I've always been to poor for that route...always had to bury ours out back.

BTW...didn't take no offense to what's been said and wasn't meaning any harm.

[fabsroman]

No offense taken and no harm done. If anybody understands that people treat dogs differently, it is me. I love my dad, but when it comes to dogs he and I have very different opinions. For instance, he wants me to keep Nitro outside after I have children. I completely disagree with that. Good thing is that I have my own place now.

[myEspringr]

gsp , it's our second. we attemted to plan it for dec. or jan. it didn't work that way oh , well there's always next year, kinda hopin' to get a little huntin' partner outta this one.

as far as how our dogs are part of our family (3) 1 is the wifes and the other two are the hunters, we will prob. end up cremating them. one thing about dogs( unlike spouses) they don't talk back and are always happy to do what you want them to. now if i could get my wife to wear the shock collar then i'd be set. ;)

[huntingvet]

I understand everyone's opinion, but I have something to add.

A "good vet" is one that does not try to make a buck off of everything, does not force you into certain therapies, and will not make you feel guilty for not following his/her recommendations. However, the difference between a "good vet" and an "excellent vet" is that an excellent vet will always surpass your expectations. He/She will always be able to offer you and your pet the best possible veterinary care options. That does not mean that you have to pursue them.

The biggest crime in veterinary medicine is for a vet to pre-judge your feelings on your dog and to limit your options without your consent. If I was presented with your dog after a rattlesnake bite, I would urge you to have me examine your dog, admit it to my care, administer various medications including antivenin and monitor it for 2-3 days. I would be very clear as to why I recommend those things, but if you desired, I would also advise you on other "treatment" options which can include a couple of shots or doing nothing. But be sure that I would let you know what chances you are taking.

Wouldn't you be pissed if you took your 3 year old son into your pediatrician for vomiting for 3 days, not eating anything, and now acting very lethargic if you pediatrician just replied... "Ah, pretty sick kid. You know, he's only 3, so why don't we try you giving him some aspirin and seeing if he get's better." Doesn't seem appropriate does it? Now I know dogs do not equal kids, but wouldn't you be happier with your pediatrician if he replied, "I'm very concerned, I will do my best, and here's my thoughts..."

As far as not doing anything and expecting your dog to be ahright after a rattlesnake bite without any medical therapy, I have a few things to add. First of all, yes most will probably "survive." But I guarantee all will be significantly painful during the rehabilitation process and a few will have major complications that can include death. Is that right for your four legged hunting pal? More importantly, is it right for your vet to make that judgement for you and tell you not to do something especially if you were intending on pursuing more aggressive care?

Many feel that vets are in it for the money. That is really unfortunate. Did you know that the current veterinary medical student will probably graduate with over a 1/4 of a million dollars in student loans and hope to land a job that pays on average $60K a year? That's barely enough to pay back the student loans. Trust me when I say that if vet's were in it for the money, we would get a different job. There are easier ways that are significantly less stressful to make money. Most of us do our job because we love being involved with our client's lives, caring for your pets and trying to make a difference. Making money is the last thing on our minds. Just ask any veterinary industry consultant... veterinarians are terrible money managers and business owners. We would rather give things away than make an honest living.

[fabsroman]

Huntingvet,

I agree completely with what you just posted. That is why I love my current vet, because he seems exactly like you. He doesn't push treatments on me and I don't feel bad about saying no thanks. I told him that I was going to need a prescription to order heart worm medication from Drs. Foster & Smith and he said he would match the price with the shipping included. Of course, I could have been a wisequy and said, but the shipping isn't significant because I am ordering a bunch of stuff from them. However, I figured since he was lowering his price by about $25 and I really liked him, I didn't care about paying a little more than what it would cost me at Drs. Foster & Smith.

With any professional service, the client/customer needs to feel good about the relationship. I know that is how it is in my profession.

As far as having it bad, when I graduated from law school, the average starting salary for an attorney was $35,000 and most had $100,000 in undergrad debt and $100,000 in law school debt. I was smart/savy enough to avoid incurring debt, so my life has been a little easier than most attorneys.

[Andy L]

http://www.coyotegods.com/ubb/forum.shtml

Hope I dont get in trouble for this, posting a link, but here is thread I have followed because I was interested about snake bites as well.

I know alot of these guys and they are the real deal when it comes to dog men and they live where there ARE rattlesnakes to deal with daily.

I trust em enough, I think I would probably evaluate the situation, but would probably do the same as 4570. And, before you say it, I DO love my dogs.

Andy