What should be eligible for the death penalty?

[Classicvette63]

Besides murder and treason, what should be eligible? There are two other "activities" that I think should be eligible.

Cloning or attempting to clone should be a capital offense. That would be the only deterrent. Too much down side and not nearly enough upside to even think about cloning. Just because humans are smart enough to do it doesn't mean they are smart enough to deal with it. Rich folks would abuse it and the average guy would suffer for it.

Time travel. Althought he stuff of science fiction, you know there are people working on it. Sure everyone wishes they could back and change something but we can't nor should we be able to. If anyone were able to create a "time machine" they would control the world, literally. How much power would a person have if they could say, go back to 1943 and give the nazi's plans for jet airplanes or even a nuclear bomb?

Thoughts?

[Virginiashadow]

Since time travel is impossible because nothing can move as fast as a photon, I would say that is out. Cloning is weird as hell and I wish noone would do it.

vashadow

[Darkwolf]

How about those morons who feel an absolute crushing need to note spelling errors or leave personal comments written in library books?
:D ;)

[Andy L]

Anything that could also render a sentence of more than, say, 20 years. Murder, treason, rape, child molestation, kidnapping, some drug offenses (repeat), alot of things.

My honest feeling on the subject is, if a person is deemed by society, by way of the judicial system, unfit to walk among us, he or she should be put to death. I see no reason on this earth, and I doubt anyone can come up with a reason that would change my mind, why someone should spend life in prison. Whats that going to accomplish? Not a damn thing but soaking each of us for money to feed and house him and to keep gaurd on him 24hrs a day. Thats all. Kill the person and get it over with. Some say its more punishment. BS. The final days counting down, the walk to the death chamber, the final moments when you know, this is it. Thats gotta be horrifying punishment. Public hanging is still the perferred method, IMO. Get some deterrent out of it too as well as the person getting their due by the anxiety, followed by death.

But, we cant do that. We are too sterile of a society. Too thin skinned. I think a person should get a good, deliberate trial. Make sure they are guilty. No appeals to follow. Get it right the first time. If your guilty, hanging within the week.

To answer your question, anything that carries a sentence currently of more than 20 years, hard years, not do five and out on parole. Like a guy I have bonded many times and went to K-12 school with as well. Habitual repeat offender of cooking large quantities of meth and dealing stolen guns. And, to make matters worse, he had high school kids selling this stuff for him, along with adults. And this is not big city folks, were talkin towns of 5000 or less, two of them less than 1000. Anyway, he has been busted over and over again, laughs at the cops and was recently found guilty in Federal court and got 40 years, plus one day, without parole. He will be 80 when he gets out. He has obviously been found unfit for society. Why should our money keep him alive, healthy and comfortable so he can most likely die in jail, and if not, shortly after being released and most likely drawing more of our tax dollars to live out the rest of his life. No sense in it.

Im done ranting now. This is a big subject for me though.

Andy

[GoodOlBoy]

Anybody who molests, rapes, or murders a woman or child should be hung in a crows cage in the town square to rot.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

So, GOB, murdering a man is fine and good, but once it involves women and children they should get the death sentence? I am willing to bet that you merely overlooked men in that statement.

The death sentence is always a good debate. I am all for it, but I do not know about appying it to cloning or time travel. I don't like cloning, but I also don't think that scientists should be put to death. Hell, if that were the case, every scientist that deals with nuclear power should have been put to death.

As far as cloning goes, what happens if countries start to do it to create an army. Kind of like in Star Wars. Soldiers can be grown in batches and not have to worry about gestation, etc. What if China were to start doing it and send over a billion clone warriors in the future? What then? As always, these big issues aren't always cut and dry.

Personally, I think the death penalty should be reserved for violent crimes such as murder, rape, and molestation, and I also think it should apply to treason. I haven't really thought about applying it to drug dealers, but usually drug dealers commit some type of violent crime anyway or are at least associated with violent crime.

As far as time travel is concerned, I will assume that it is impossible and will be forever.

[Virginiashadow]

"Anybody who molests, rapes, or murders a woman or child should be hung in a crows cage in the town square to rot. "

I agree, and they should have their penis cut off before they are put in the cage.

vashadow

[GoodOlBoy]

Fabs what I mean is that all to often crimes of passion against women go unpunished.

Murder is murder, however I am sick to death of seeing rapists and child molesters going to jail for 5-10 then going free on parole.

As for men killing men, it all depends. Self defense, he needed killin', etc. . . . . .

:)

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

What if a man were to be raped by another man, or a woman raped a man at gun point? Would they be hung in the crow's cage too?

[GoodOlBoy]

Man on man yes, woman on man. . . . . I will say two things. One you can't rape the willing, and two (under the same heading)I don't know if I believe it is physically possible for a woman to rape a man, but if so then yes she should be hung in the crows cage as well.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

GOB,

Here is a pretty good column. It doesn't prove that a man can be raped, but it gives some food for thought.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2004/jan/21guest.htm

I'll send the rest of the examples to you via PM because they aren't family oriented. Not too sure that the above link is either, or the death penalty for that matter.

[Valigator]

Cant I clone my Huckelberry?PLEASE........:confused:

[Valigator]

this guy is still on death row....we cant kill the ones we have deemed unfit to stay in society...let alone any for new crimes...

Pittsburgh, PA -- Stephen Rex Edmiston, 31, was found guilty of
first- degree murder, rape, statutory rape and involuntary deviate
sexual intercourse. That ruling came in a non-jury trial.

Edmiston then asked for a jury to decide whether he faces death in
the electric chair or life in prison for the death of Bobbi Jo
Matthew.

After his arrest in the Matthew case, Edmiston was tried and
acquitted by a jury of molesting another young girl.

He was free on bail on the molestation charges when he committed
the Matthew murder.

Bobbi Jo was abducted from her bed in the early morning hours of
Oct. 5, 1988. Edmiston, an acquaintance of the child's parents and
a former lover of her grandmother, was questioned by state police
in connection with her disappearance. He drew police a map with an
''X'' marking the spot where her raped and lifeless body was found.

Edmiston raped the child and scalped her and fractured her skull.
She also had a puncture wound in her chest, and burns on her face
and chest. Prosecutors have theorized the puncture and burns were
the result of her attempt to escape Edmiston after the sexual
assault by crawling under his vehicle, where she was burned and
wounded by the vehicle's hot catalytic converter.

Now you tell me if this guy is still alive...I think we have a problem...:mad:

[Valigator]

if the moderator feels my post is not fit...feel free to pull...it is brutal....but it makes our point....

[Andy L]

Heres an example of someone who should get death. But instead, hes facing 3-15 and a fine. And MAY lose his teaching certificate. Sad. This was in our local paper today.




CAMDEN COUNTY - A School of the Osage high school science teacher faces disciplinary action for immoral conduct and the possibility of losing his teaching certification after being charged with three counts of statutory sodomy by the Camden County Prosecuting Attorney's office.

Adam Kincheloe, 25, is currently free on $100,000 bond. Kincheloe was charged on July 27 following an investigation by the Osage Beach Police Department and the State Technical Assistance Team, which specializes in sex crimes involving children.

According to the investigative report filed by the Osage Beach Police Department, the charges stem from an alleged relationship Kincheloe is accused of having with a student. The alleged relationship that led to the charges is believed to have started in January or February of this year and continued at least through May.

The investigation resulted in three charges of statutory sodomy against Kincheloe for three specific incidents that allegedly occurred in May. The victim is identified in court records only by initials and age. The sodomy charges were filed based on the age of the alleged victim.

Police issued a search warrant to seize Kincheloe's laptop, home and work computers, text messaging records, handwritten notes and other documents as part of the investigation.

The victim apparently shared the information with a counselor through a journal after saying "she couldn't talk about her problem but she could write about it."

The counselor and the alleged victim's mother had both noticed she appeared to be troubled and withdrawn, according to the affidavit of probable cause. The affidavit refers to "inappropriate behavior" on and off the school campus.

According to court documents, Kincheloe's permanent address is listed as Lebanon. The court documents also refer to a residence in Osage Beach.

According to school officials, Kincheloe has been with the district for two years. Kincheloe was under contract to return to his position teaching physical science and chemistry later this month when the fall session gets underway.

During the course of the investigation, School of the Osage Superintendent Mary Ann Johnson turned over an e-mail that court records say appears to have been sent by Kincheloe to the school apologizing for his actions and admitting it was "not professional in any means." The e-mail was submitted as evidence in the affidavit of probable cause.

"Our first priority is to protect our children," Johnson said.

Johnson said Kincheloe has been notified that the district is moving forward with a hearing to take action on the immoral conduct issue. Depending on the outcome of the school district's action, Kincheloe could face the loss of his teaching certification.

The sodomy charges carry a range of punishment of one to seven years in jail or one year in jail and/or a fine of $5,000 on each count.

[Lilred]

Well..here goes...
I reckon I aint very good at explainin..so I'll start here:
IMHO, there is 3 kinds of rape.
1. There is rape, where it happens, unprovoked and fer no reason whatsoever but ..well..you know.
2. There is what I like to call..the bait & switch kinda rape. That's where..fer example..there is a very promiscious woman at a party somewheres hangin round with a bad crowd and knowin it..and baits men all night but turnin em down until...eventually..the unfortunate happens.
3. This here is what I call the screamer..who fer whatever reason wound up in bed with some man..and either outta guilt, money, fame er whatever..just hollers rape when there wont no real rape.

So, as you can tell..there are few women I truly feel sorry fer when it comes to that kinda thing. Most, in my opinion, ask fer it...however..I do truly feel sorrow fer women who are unfortunate enough to have somethin like that happen to em...fer no reason at all. it truly is a terrible thing, and I could only imagine how terrible it would make a person feel.
Which in turn, leads me to that there article fabs posted. First off...a man be raped??? That article had nuthin to do with that fool gittin raped, he was screwed maybe, but not raped. It riles me up that somebody writin that piss poor article would even confuse the werds..it aint funny. And wether anybody likes it er not..a man is a man, and is designed to be just that. procreate. that's his job..and a man knows it...and aint no man gonna play baseball without the bat iffin ya git my drift.
A man can be screwed..but not raped.

Now, on to the death penalty..as fer as time travel and clonin..man is his own demise..and a man's only enemy on this earth is his own race..the human bein as we know it. We (and iffin it aint in our lifetime..they) will blow the human race to smithereens some which a way er another.

Death penalties should be w/o question: murder, anything bad done to an innocent child i.e molestin, rape, murder..that sorta thing, and I would like to say rape. But..that's a grey area imho..cause, the burden of proof is just that.
Death penalties should be swift. Hate wastin tax dollars feedin the tater plants fertilizer when you'll never git a tater one out of em...

[fabsroman]

I would gladly pull the trigger on the crime the Val set forth.

Don't know about the one posted by you Andy. I guess I would need more detail as to exactly what happened and how the state defines sodomy. Sometimes, sodomy is merely an inappropriate touching and the victim can be fully clothed. It just depdens on exactly what the details are. He obviously didn't have sex with the girl or they would be charging him with statutory rape.

How about the female teachers in schools that actually have sex with the young boys? Should they receive the death penalty? That is actually statutory rape!!!!!! Remember, we live in a society that believes what is good for the goose is good for the gander, and vice versa, or does society view boys and men being raped as less of a tragedy than girls and men.

Is it harder for society to put a woman to death for a crime she committed than it is to put a man to death?

[Valigator]

I might have failed to mention in my post above that the child Bobbi Jo was only 2 years old........:(

that case hit the core of me like nothin else ever did...not a night goes by that I dont think of her....and as long as there are people out there who come up from from what ever hell they rise from.....and do these things to kids...I will be an avid death penalty advocate and a sex offenders worst nightmare....

[Andy L]

Well, I dont know if I should define sodomy on a family board, but will say its two different kinds of sexual activity that is not stadard, can be either one. Since statutory hasnt been filed ,yet, this county could do it later, they do that alot, I figger its the other type.

Fabs, you might feel a bit differently if it was your 14yr old (thats what I was told at the jail) daughter that was sodomized by a 25 yr old teacher. A person that we all trust our children to not only teach but to not have to worry about them being with them. I happen to know the folks involved in a roundabout way. I can only imagine how the girls father feels. I do imagine that he would agree that the death penalty isnt too much.

And, I dont care if the girl did have a mutual feeling. Thats just something that a 25 yr old, educator no less, should have enough in him to resist and put a stop to before it starts.

Again, this is just my opinon, but I know if something like that happened to one of my kids, there is a good chance I could end up on death row under my own rules.

:mad:

Andy

[fabsroman]

"I do imagine that he would agree that the death penalty isn't too much."

Andy,

The problem with the death penalty is that it is the ultimate penalty, and there is no correcting it once you find out that it was the wrong penalty. I think we have had this discussion before on this forum about how over 40 inmates were on death row in Illinois and through DNA testing the state was able to figure out that they weren't guilty. As I stated back then, I believe that the death penalty is warranted in some situations, but not all, and whether or not the sexual conduct warrants it depends on the degree. Maryland has 4 degrees of sexual crimes, with the 4th degree being a sexual touching. The word sodomy is used very loosely in many different circumstances, so I tend to not go by it. To elaborate more about this would go a little too far on this board.

If my 14 year old daughter were the victim, I would definitely want to kill the person. Heck, if my daughter were killed in a car ACCIDENT, I would want to kill the other driver, or in the alternative, if she were a passenger, I would want to kill all drivers involved. If my 14 year old daughter were punched in the face by some punk, I would want him dead.

That is the good thing about our society, they don't allow the victim to make that decision. Otherwise, people would be dying for a lot less than anything we've talked about on this board.

[Andy L]

Fabs,
So, lets say this freaks found guilty. I dont think its gonna be a problem. Hes pretty much already admitted it in the letter to the school and lets say that all the other evidence from his computers and letter and ect... all pan out and hes absolutely guilty of this crime against that girl. You think he is fit to continue to live in our society?

Im sorry, were gonna differ on this one. No place out there for sexual predators against children, IMO.

Andy

[Valigator]

Nothin for nothin Fabs, but in this day and age and all the variables involved with sex offenders and the loopholes we all are obviously experiencing........sometimes, just sometimes Law Enforcement are the last people you call......;)

[fabsroman]

Andy,

You and I will continue to disagree about a lot of things forever. What about the guys from Enron, should they get the death penalty. They essentially ruined hundreds of people's retirement, essentially ruining their lifes. Should they die? There is a lot of white collar crime that ruins people's lives.

At the end of everything, I would need to see/her exactly what this guy did before I could say yay or nay on the death penalty. If it was merely inappropriate fondling/inappropriate touching and all the girl's clothes were on, I don't think I could give him the death penalty.

I had a prospective client come to me a couple of months ago because his ex-wife was petitioning the Court for full custody. Turns out that this man was sleeping in the same bed as his 8 year old daughter and that he was still helping her toilet. I declined the case, can somewhat understand the sleeping problem because he lives in a mobile home. I cannot quite understand the toileting thing, unless the girl truly still needs help toileting, but I would presume that she doesn't because the mother was pretty appauled to find out about this.

Anyway, as I preach in all my threads, unless we know the facts it is pretty hard to judge and figure out what to do. What if this guy has a couple of young children of his own and the facts are as stated above (i.e., inappropriate touching with all clothes in place)? Would you pull the trigger on this guy with his young children in the courtroom?

We always try to over simplify things on this board into a black and white argument, but they aren't. We always like to say what we will do, but one never knows what they will do until the situation presents itself.

For instance, everybody likes to think they will jump in front of a bullet to save their buddy. Most people like to think they wouldn't be scared to get off the troop transports on D-Day. At the end of the day, our decisions can only be made when they are presented to us, and even though we rehearse them it usually doesn't work out the same.

[Andy L]

Fabs,
You got a PM.

As for the white collar crimes, I have to think more about it. I dont know. I was thinkin about that when this thread started. The bad thing about that is, its usually not so black and white, so to speak. There are usually ALOT of guilty parties, with some more guilty and more roles than others. Yeah, alot of folks lost everything with Enron. Someone needs to swing, probably, but finding the right ones may be a trick.

And for the other, maybe the PM may clear up a few things that I cant say on here. ;)

I dont mind disagreeing wtih you. At least we can normally keep it civil. I think alot of our disagreement sometimes stems from being brought up in completely different cultures and completely different geographic areas, which relates back to the cultures.

Andy

[Blktail]

Drugs are a huge problem in our society. Even pot. I figure anybody caught selling drugs should be shot immediately after their trial.

Street racing should also be punishable by death. Even if they are just racing the clock on a back road. Risk my life or that of my family and die.

Poaching for profit!

[fabsroman]

Blacktail,

Poaching for profit should be punishable by death? How about shooting an auto mechanic for ripping off grandma and grandpa or the 18 year old college girl that knows nothing about cars? Poaching for profit hurts the environment and other generations to come, kind of like littering, but it doesn't hurt anybody directly. Should we shoot people that litter? Don't get me wrong, I do not condone littering, but there would be a lot of dead people laying around if we gave the death sentence for littering.

Street racing punishable by death. Thank God new criminal laws and sentences cannot be applied retroactively. I did my fair share of drag racing when I was younger, but don't really get into it anymore on the street.

How about road rage, and how do you judge what road rage is? Road rage is probably responsible for more deaths a year on the road than drag racing is. I know it is a big problem around this area.

Andy,

I haven't checked out the PM yet, but I would sum up my view on the death penalty as saying that it should be applied on a case by case basis to any crime that the jury sees fit to apply it in. Of course, there should be mitigating circumstances that are taken into account too, which Maryland has a list of. The death penalty is a tough subject.

[DaMadman]

I just read in our local paper this morning that a guy living 10-15 miles from me only got 18 months for sexually abusing a 4 year old because he cut a deal on that case to avoid other charges against him from going to court.

By pleading guilty on the one charge the dropped his sentence from 8 years to 18 months and gave him 65 days time served because the state/county cut him the deal for other charges that were pending

Lot of people are real upset with the prosecuter on that one.

I know people that have gotten almost that much time for drinking 6 beers and driving home and this pervert gets off with a year and a half after raping a 4 year old.

[Blktail]

Fabs

My post, while only partly facetious, is not intended to exclude any other serious crimes.

The items I listed may not seem too serious, but they are pet peaves of mine. Given the attitudes of people these days I truly believe that the only way to STOP a crime is to have a sentence which acts as a deterent. I realize that a death sentence for pushers would not stop the sale of drugs, I believe it would drastically reduce it, with the added benefit that the prisons would not be full of pushers.

Reducing sentences for various crimes so as not to overpopulate the jails has not worked. Lets up the ante instead. Longer sentences, hard time, no resort-like jails.

What is wrong with killing some guy that has killed one or more people during a street race? Especially if the guy knew that would be the penalty if caught? Excessive? Exactly what would be fair to the rest of a law abiding society?

Same with poaching for profit. Don't do the crime if you don't like the time. They shoot poachers in Africa.

[Andy L]

I never thought about that since this thread started, but I agree with Blacktail.

I dont know that road racing should be death penalty, but if you kill someone in the act of road racing, the penalty is death. Same with killing someone while driving drunk or impared. I dont see a thing wrong with that. You did something you knew for a fact was putting others lives in danger and you killed someone. Why shouldnt you get the death penalty? What makes you better than any other murderer. I guess pre-meditated would be an arguement, but you made the decision to get drunk or race, knowing you could very well kill someone.

As for poaching, I dont know if that should be or not. I agree its as bad of a crime as any stealing. Stealing resources for food, fur and pleasure from the rest of us. I wouldnt be opposed to someone being put to death for repeat offender of poaching for profit.

I know a fella around here that goes on the lake sping and fall, and just absolutely rapes the crappie population. Goes everyday and catches all he can and sells fillets by the pound. Limit is 15 and posession limit is 30 btw. He has been caught and paid some nominal fines, thumbed his nose and keeps on going. Should he die? I know alot of folks that would say yes to that, around here anyway.....

Andy

[Valigator]

I f all of you would search the crimes that are considered Capitol Offenses....you would see there are more than you think.....the one thing about the death penalty is that it has been and continues to be one of the most debated issues in our society...as it should be I guess...but when the people have spoken and decided in each state what constitutes a death penalty and elected siad officials who stand on that platform....then have the system so clogged up the state cannot get justice..we have a huge problem....me I am 100 percent for the death penalty and more so everyday....most of the persons sentenced to death in the last 10 years have alot of evidence to conclude their guilt (DNA) I think the time spent on death row should have a limit...I was hoping the laws passed last year to limit the amount of monies awarded to lawyers appealing would have speeded things up...seems no dice....anyway my point is..if you got laws on the books and cant get them to fruition..why even consider others...PS. those funds lost in the Enron debachle should have been insured...even if it was 50 cents on the dollar...

[fabsroman]

Val,

Were those Enron pension funds insured, or should they just have been insured? I am not sure which statement you meant.

As a result of Enron, we have the Sarbanes-Oxley Act that provides a lot stricter standards for auditors and companies.

I looked up the death penalty last night in Maryland, and it seems that it is only available for first degree murder, and the only difference between first degree murder and second degree murder is aggravating circumstances such as rape, strangulation, poisoning, and so on. The death penalty is not available for second degree murder or any of the sexual offenses. I was quite surprised.

As far as legal representation of people on death row is concerned, a lot of attorneys do it as pro bono work. We are supposed to do a certain amount of pro bono to give back to the community, or pay into a fund some money so that other attorneys can be hired to provide these services. So, you are going to be stuck with all the appeals for quite a while. I don't know about limiting the appeals process. Like I said before, I used to be all for the death penalty until I found out that a bunch of innocent men on death row were let out in Illinois after DNA testing proved they were innocent. If that appeal process wasn't in place, I am sure a lot of innocent men would have died.

Another thing that scared me had to do with some new scientific process that resulted in a doctor in Florida being found guilty of poisoning his wife. That was death penalty case and he was sentenced to life in prison if I am not mistaken. After several months in prison, and a lot more unsolved cases and current cases going down as poisoning with this specific poison, an FBI analyst figured out that the scientific testing was faulty because the trace elemeny from the poison showed up in all dead people (i.e., upon death it was created). Imagine if all the people convicted of poisoning somebody under this new scientific test had been hurried off to the electric chair or injection chamber.

Imagine that your husband dropped dead and you inherited a large life insurance policy but had a lot of debt. The authorities thought there was foul play on your part by poisoning him, you were hurried through the legal system, this new science proved you guilty, and you were hurried off to the electric chair.

See, I don't just think of what is the best and quickest punishment for the guilty, I think about how passing a law could affect everybody.

[Valigator]

You know Fabs, one of the first things in law school I would teach lawyers is that there are some truly bad guys out there....and sometimes the evidence of their guilt is glaring....another words they have worn out their welcome on the rest of humanity....and as a society we have deemed their punishment to be death....what I dont get is when we have glaring evidence and we have gone beyond a reasonable doubt in the eyes of society I got some putz lawyer trying to make a name for himself by post poning the laws of the land at the expense of the American citizen.....now overall I get where your coming from..truly I do...but if you have a system that we as taxpayers pay for...even with its faults......and demand the punishment of death for what is considered a heinous crime.....you tell me...why I cant get it....in fact go back to the above post I made about the beast I decribed...and tell me in a way I will understand why he hasnt been executed?
Because I gotta tell ya Fabs....there will come a day..when the American citizen knows they will not recieve justice because of lawyers that have to make a name for themselves...there will come a day when the profession that was suppose to be so noble has gone to crap, and we as citizens will have to take justice in our own hands....and that day Fabs has come....

[fabsroman]

Val,

That day hasn't come for the very reason that you would be just as guilty as the criminal.

Most lawyers aren't out there to make a name for themselves on these death penalty cases. Most of them are the liberal guys who think these people deserve every chance possible.

My criminal law professor put it best, "We do our jobs and hope that the system works. That is how we sleep at night."

We have gone over this time and time again. The American judicial system is structured so that 10 guilty men will go free before 1 innocent man is convicted.

Just put yourself in the shoes of some poor, and I mean monetarily poor, person that is charged with a crime that he is innocent of? Imagine that you get the public defender who is overworked and grossly under paid.

Your problem Val is that you are looking at this as though all people found guilty are actually guilty. I would love to come down to Florida and lock you in a prison for several years, just so you could experience what an innocent person in jail experiences. How did those 40+ guys on death row feel knowing they were innocent. How did that poor doctor feel being incarcerated for several months while he was innocent.

Yes, I do feel terrible for the victims, but lets not railroad people into the death penalty. The laws are in place for a reason, and not all attorneys are glory seekers.

While I don't do much criminal stuff, I have been involved with a client recently that has been charged with a plethora of stuff over the last year or so.

January 2004 - DWI

September 2004 - 2nd Degree Assualt against his girlfriend

February 2005 - 4 counts of 2nd Degree Assault, 3 against LEO's, and a disorderly conduct charge

March 2005 - driving on a revoked license, along with several other moving violations

May 2005 - 2nd Degree Assault against his girlfriend

The entire mess started with the DWI. He and his girlfriend got into an argument and he locked himself in his truck so that he could get away from her. I didn't represent him in this case, but I reviewed the record to prepare for the other cases and she testified in the DWI case that she grabbed a wrench out of the back of the truck and broke the window to the truck. At that point, he drove off and "accidentally" ran over her leg. He saw it happen in the side view mirror and jumped out of the truck while it was still moving. It ended up going across the street and hitting a tree. He was found guilty of driving under the influence.

The MO on both 2nd Degree Assualt charges made by her is that they happen after the two of them have been drinking. He broke up with her on both occassions and started loading his stuff in the car and she called the police on him for hitting her. She didn't appear at either trial, but I had to plead him on the second one because the LEO's saw the destroyed items and were available as witnesses. There were absolutely no marks on her from either incident.

Before meeting this girl, this guy's record was completely clean except for a disorderly conduct charge back in 1993.

The other night she called me up crying that he hit her again, and she was pissed off at me because she doesn't think I believe he ever hits her. Quite honestly, this thing has me torn up. He admitted the assault to me during the May 2005 incident, but according to him it was minor (i.e., a push in her back when she turned her back on him). Of course, he could be lying.

However, I know she is a coniver/manipulator, because she has been coniving ever since I have known her. She stopped working at her last job, and her friend there is doing her work for her, so she just signs her pay check over to her friend. I have no idea how the heck that works, but she uses the alleged income for credit purposes. My client, who owns a business, drafted a letter of employment for her to "refinance" her mortgage even though I tried to explain to him that he could get into serious trouble if she defaulted on the loan because she wasn't actually working for him. She had tried on several occassions to have my client sign over a vehicle to her because "her alcohol class in Virginia wants to see that she has insurance on a car and she needs to have the car in her own name to get insurance on it." When I suggested that he just put her name on the title along with his, she wasn't too happy about it.

I guess what pisses me off is that if she really wanted to be spiteful, she could testify in one of these matters and get my client thrown in jail because the judge would believe her over my client. She could throw herself down the stairs and get my client locked up for quite a while, because the judge would believe her.

Of course, I could always try to show the MO of the previous circumstances (i.e., the car was loaded up with his stuff on both occassions that she called the police), but it all comes down to credibility. Sometimes, there just isn't overwhelming evidence.

That is probably what the 40+ in Illinois faced.They were just railroaded and there were people like you crying out for there immediate death back then.

Val, I know I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I pulled the trigger on an innocent person, but I am sure when you take matters into your own hands you will gather all the evidence possible before killing somebody based upon anger and what you "think" he might have done. Figuring out somebody's guilt isn't always the easiest thing. If the person is found with the body, is he automatically guilty. Boy, I hope I don't stumble on any dead bodies anytime soon.

I can keep going on, but I have to get back to work so I can glorify my name on an unemployment issue that one of my clients has. LOL

By the way, if somebody killed a family member of mine, you can bet I would want blood, but I doubt I would kill anybody unless I actually saw the person kill my family member.

[Andy L]

I got a couple of cases I want to run by you folks and see what you think these folks should have gotten as sentences. These happen to be cases on people that I know and our company bonded. But, I also knew them personally as well. Ill give you all the relevant details I can without going on too long.

#1. This guy, about 21 yrs old at the time, was coming home around 3am from a night of drinking and partying with other substances, in a town about 40 miles from where he lived. He was alone in his pickup and fell asleep, passed out, whatever, and ran off the side of the road, which had a wide, paved shoulder, and hit a car sitting there, with its lights on, and killed the girl driving the car. She had pulled over to use her cell phone, so she wouldnt have a wreck, so said her friend on the other end. The driver of the truck paniced and drove off, going home and to bed. He was caught and confessed the next day.

What do you think he got? What did he deserve?

#2. There was a bit of a feud going on between two familys of brothers. After several fist fights and death threats, two of the parties were driving through a really small town together, when two on the other side, ran them off the road, then followed them to a gas station in town and rammed the rear of their vehicle. One of the brothers in the ramming vehicle jumped out and began shooting at the two he just rammed with a hand gun, killing the passanger. The driver got out with a 7mm Mag and shot the original shooter in the head, killing him. the other brother in the aggressive vehicle never got out or picked up a weapon. Basically just set there.

Who should be in trouble? What sentence did whoever deserve? What do you think the sentence was and to whom?

See how this goes.

Andy

[M.T. Pockets]

I'd have to say the woman in TN that opened fire on the officers to break her convict husband loose would be a good candidate. He would too if he was in on the planning.

[fabsroman]

Andy,

In case #1, the guy should have gotten life in prison because there was no intent to kill the woman and there definitely was no malice, but drinking and driving is one of my pet peeves. In reality he probably got 10 to 15 years with the eligibility for parole.

Case #2,

The brother in the aggressive vehicle probably got charged as an accessory to murder and might have gotten life in prison. If I were on the jury, I probably would have found him guilty of reckless endangerment. If I were the Judge I would put him on probation for 5 years.

The guy with the 7mm Mag might have gotten charged with murder or manslaughter. Depends on when he shot the guy that started all the shooting. If the other guy was done with all his shooting and didn't have the gun raised anymore, and the 7mm brother shot him out of revenge, he was guilty of murder and could have received the death sentence. Personally, I wouldn't even find him guilty because he did society a favor and I would do the same thing if my brother was gunned down in front of me.


Now, here is another for you guys. A client of mine was coming home for lunch from her employer to see her new born baby. She was stopped at a red light waiting behind a car. The light turned green and she followed the car in front of her through the intersection. She woke up in a hospital room 5 days later after being in a coma for 4 days. The paramedics and doctors gave her less than a 50-50 chance to live. Turns out that a drunk driver was doing 70 in a 40 and blew through the red light. It was his 4th offense and there was an empty bottle and half empty bottle of vodka on the floor of his truck. My client spent a week in the ICU and had $100,000 in medical bills. When I took the case, I thought it was going to be one where I made absolutely no money because the guy had statury limits on the vehicle. Essentially, I planned on dealing with the medical providers to get them to reduce their bills to a point where my client could get some money. At the end of the day, it turned out pretty well because this guy had $300,000 single limit policy and a decent amount of assets. However, I went to the criminal trial and can tell you to this day what this guy got and the Judge's reasoning for it.

I'll post a couple of pictures below of the vehicles.

[fabsroman]

Here is a picture of the guy's truck.

[fabsroman]

Here is another case.

A guy I went to high school with owned an old Mercury Cougar. I would say it WAS a 1967 or so. Anyway, during our early twenties, he decided to take that thing well over 100 on a road where we lived. Mind you, it was a 40 mph speed limit and it was 3 lanes each way with a median divider. Anyway, an old lady pulled out in front of him and he T-boned her, sending her to her grave.

He was found guilty of manslaughter and given 5 years probation. He never served a day in jail. Being an avid hunter, I guess it was also punishment that he couldn't own any firearms because he is a convicted felon.

With that said, I had gone 105 on that same road with my Mustang, but that was before I was 20 and I always made sure it was late at night and that there was no traffic. Granted, that is no excuse, but at least I only did that once. Prior to that, I had gotten the car up to 125 in two other places and was surprised to find out how long it takes to stop (i.e., I barely stopped for a red light and stop sign on each occassion). Haven't broken 100 in many years now.

[Andy L]

The guy that hit the car on the side of the road got 7 yrs with a 15 yr backup. Meaning, he was sentenced to 7 yrs in prison, but when paroled (which he got in 3 and change), if he didnt walk the probation, he was sent for 15. Hes still on probation. Even though hes the brother of a good freind of mine, I thougth it pretty light. So does alot of the other folks around that town.

The 7mm brother got life in prison with eligibility for parole in 20 years. That was a bit different, because of the reputation of the other shooter and witnesses saying he was still firing when shot with the rifle.

I used these two just to see what you would say. I think if anything, the sentences should have been about the opposite. As bad as I hate to say it about my buddies brother, he deserved life, at least, and probably death. There was no excuse for that.

And, I figured self defense with unlawful use of weapon or maybe aggrivated assult for the other that actually got murder charges and life.

I would have to say that in your example, I would have to give your 4th time DWI offender at least life. Since the woman didnt die, I guess death would be out of the question. But, if he gets life, that means that society has deemed him unfit to walk among us and a hazard to others in society. Why keep him alive? Thats my whole point in this thing. So, I guess I would probably have voted death. Even though its not an option in our sterile society.

Andy

[fabsroman]

Andy,

I am fine with the guy doing 7 years, but appaulled by the 20 yeas for the 7mm guy. If I read your post correctly, the 7mm guy was in the car that was being chased and hit and his brother got shot before he even opened fire. If you are telling me the guy with the handgun was still blasting when he was shot by the 7mm, I have no idea how the 7mm guy got 20 years. Luckily, he didn't get the death penalty. The fact that the 7mm guy got 20 years is my reason for being a little less hasty to dole out the death penalty.

In my case with the 4 time DWI guy, he got 5 years with all but 10 months suspended, and then he received 6 months of the 10 months on work release (i.e., home arrest), so he ended up doing all of 4 months in jail for almost killing my client and changing her life for quite a while.

[Valigator]

Ahhhh, spoken like a true attorney Fabs.......instead of answering my question you danced with examples of other cases....I'll ask you again, why is a guy still suckin up my air space when he was convicted in 1990.....with a confession and updated DNA evidence? Why cant the victim and the people of his state get Justice?

I am attackin a problem and not a personality here, so I wont apologize OK.

PS heres the latest dance the attorneys are doing for this creep:

Cambria County
Death row inmate says car killed toddler

Attorneys seeking a new trial for a man on death row for the rape and murder of a toddler contend that there was no murder and that her injuries resulted from being run over by a car.

Stephen Rex Edmiston, 47, was convicted in 1990 of abducting 2-year-old Bobbi Jo Matthew from her home in Beccaria, Clearfield County, in October 1988 and driving her to a remote area in northern Cambria County, where he raped, beat and scalped her.

Edmiston's attorneys said recently that color slides from the autopsy indicated that the child's scalp was removed when a car backed over her and that her internal injuries were also from the car, not an assault.

Enough is enough...this stuff makes me sick....

[fabsroman]

Val,

I thought I answered your question, but I guess you need it to be as short as possible.

In essence, you have not received justice because he must receive justice before we take his life. If there is any possiblity that he is not guilty of murder, it should be listened to.

By the way, how much discovery do you think the Public Defender does? Do you think they do as much as the OJ Simpson attorneys did. Do you think they hire investigators that specialize in this stuff or forensics guys that specialize in this stuff.

At the end of the day, if there is NEW evidence that shows that this guy might not be guilty, like the DNA evidence in Illinois, he should get a new trial.

Sometimes, evidence is overlooked in trials and courts nowadays are not too willing to postpone trials and back up dockets so that a huge amount of discovery can be done.

In the end, it is all about justice and making sure that he gets his before you get yours. He has a lot more to lose than you do in this situation.

Did that answer your question, or should I limit it to a single sentence?

[Rocky Raab]

Let's not get testy, folks.

I detect a bit of an edge in the last two posts.

We're all friends here.

[fabsroman]

How does the pledge of allegiance end.

I think it ends with "with Liberty and JUSTICE for ALL".

It doesn't just say Justice for victims or Justice for alleged perpetrators. Justice is for everybody and it isn't a one way street.

What a lot of people do not understand is that once a Court enters a verdict it is really hard to appeal it and get it overturned. I saw a Nightline episode about two guys incarcerated for 15+ years in New York City and the Courts are unwilling to overturn the verdicts for them even though there is a ton of evidence showing that somebody else is responsible for the shooting/murder of the person. The guy will not talk without immunity and the state will not give him immunity.

Come on now, this guy already served a bunch of time for other crimes and just got out of prison. Is it worth it to keep two innocent guys locked up over this. The state should give this guy immunity, let him testify as to what happened that night, and be done with it even if it means the real killer (i.e., this guy) goes free.

Will these two guys get their 15 years back. NO. Will these two guys be compensated by the state. NO.

Where is the Justice in that?

Life isn't fair, but I don't think executing people left and right as fast as the needles and electric chairs can go is going to solve the Justice issue.

Val,

You look at it one sided, execute the guy. Me, I say let the system run its course and let the guy be executed at the end of the day.

The really sad thing is that we will never know how many innocent people have been executed/murdered by the state because they were railroaded through the system.

Trust me, the system doesn't work great all the time for victims and it doesn't work great all the time for accused people either.

We cannot do anything for the innocent, dead child, at this point, but we can take some precaution to make sure that another innocent life is not ended.

[Valigator]

well we have accomplished one thing.....we have agreed to disagree.....you will have a few examples of justice gone awry in the next few years...with the increased technology of DNA....I would venture a few people will be exonerated for crimes they did not commit....but in the same vain, when it validates the guilty...

Hey but I will lean towards your side and figure this was just a misunderstood guy who had a very valid reason for takin this baby in the middle of the night to a deserted area...maybe he was takin her to Disney World, yea that was it...just got lost along the way...somehow her insides fell out....and the car accidently rolled over her and lost the top of her head...and I am sure it was a misunderstandin that he left her out there....you know those pesky two year olds....stuff like that happens to all of us at sometime right?:rolleyes:

[Rocky Raab]

As this has devolved into a two-person discussion, and all that can be said has been...

I think I'll close the thread.

This isn't a punishment, just an administrative decision because I'm going to be off-net and don't want this to catch fire while I'm gone.