gas prices

[PJgunner]

I didn't have any problem getting gas last night other than the sticker shock. Went to fill the pick up truck and it was $2.60 a gallon for regular. In the roughly five minutes it took me to get back home, pick up my wife's Explorer to fill it up gas was $2.79 a gallon. I stuck my credit card in and it told me I had to go in and pay inside. They guy said the satellite was updating the prices again, to $2.90 a gallon as that is what it ended up at. Two price hikes in less than 15 minutes. OUTRAGEOUS! :mad:
There is a town about 50 miles away from Tucson that was charging $3.00 a gallon and limiting sales to ten gallons a customer.
Katrinais the big break big oil has been waiting for. Now they can get away with charging whatever they like for gasoline and there there isn't a hell of a lot we can do about it. you can bet that once those prices are up there, they'll never come dome. With both the president and VP oil men, you'll see no real help from that quarter. The Congress? Hell! Big oil and big business own them too. Have you seen any of them on the news saying they have to do something to alleviate the problem? I sure haven't.
Just goes to prove, we have the best government big business can buy.
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

Is everybodies memory so bad? Look at what happened in the late 70's/ early 80's. Something called the Honda Civic was created by the Japanese and Americans started trading in their gas guzzler cars for smaller cars. I think there is pretty stiff competition between the auto makers right now that whoever can produce the most fuel efficient cars will make out big. I know I am starting to seriously look toward a hybrid for our next car purchase and the wife is seriously thinking about transferring to a Target a lot closer to home (i.e., right across the street). If she transfers to that Target, about the only driving we will have to do is to see my family or for me to visit clients. The rest of the driving will be pleasure driving that we can take or leave as we see fit.

If Americans would stop crying about the price of gas and do something positive about it, big oil might just be crying more than Americans are right now.

What can Congress do about the price of oil and why should they do anything? This is a free trade economy and if the oil companies can get this kind of money, why shouldn't they.

People need to start living closer to work and consuming less oil anyway. The consumption of less oil will be better for the environment.

People need to trade in their SUV's for a nice little small car. Could you imagine if everybody traded in their cars for a hybrid that gets 40+ mpg. The oil crisis would be over.

[BILLY D.]

fabs, last sentence"and the oil crisis would be over". my answer.

"and the prices would go higher to make up for the oil companies losses."

you ain't seen nothin' yet. the oil companies have wanted $5 a gallon gasoline for awhile. they will get it. watch the economy crash then.

[fabsroman]

Billy,

What you do not understand is that if we no longer need as much gas, the oil companies cannot charge as much. Simple supply and demand. If we aren't using what they have stock piled, then they will have to lower the price. The problem is that we Americans do not curb our driving at all when gasoline prices rise. We merely pay for it and complain the entire time.

If, all of a sudden, nobody needed gas, the price of gas would drop drastically and the oil companies would be out of business. Then, we would probably see an economic disaster too.

We cannot move away from oil too quickly without giving these companies something to diversify into, otherwise they will be bankrupt and there will be plenty of people without jobs. It is kind of like a fine line.

However, I can guarantee you that the next car I buy will be a hybrid and while I hate buying anything but a Ford, I might break tradition and buy the most reasonably priced hybrid.

[Rocky Raab]

PJ, all that "big oil" conspiracy talk is bull chips.

Oil costs them how much a barrel? Let's say $66 for argument's sake. There are 33 gallons in a barel of crude, so they are paying $2 a gallon for it. Now they have to pay to ship it to the US (liberals and environmentalists won't let us drill here, remember), then transport it to the refineries (which are shackled hand and foot by liberals and conservationists ;aws) then they refine it. Which isn't free. They have to build the refinery and pay union wages to those who work there.

That barrel of crude doesn't make 33 gallons of gasoline. Even if it could, where do you think jet fuel, diesel, heating oil, plastics and even medicines come from, huh? Crude oil, bud.

So they end up paying more than $2 a gallon for the gasoline they refine.

Now, they have to pay to ship it to service stations. The poor guy who owns the station has to feed his kids (and pay taxes!) so that gets added to what you pay at the pump.

'Scuse me, but where's the huge profit?

[DogYeller]

What's In A Barrel of Oil? (http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html)

The market price today is about $70 a Bbl. Reg. gasoline is about $2.85 before additives, reformulated is higher. Stations mark it up 10 or 12 cents a gallon. You get about 20 gallons of gasoline from a bbl of oil and you sell it for $3.00 a gallon, that's $60. Gas doesn't pay for the oil let alone allow you to make a profit. The profit has to be made on the remnants of the original 42 gal.

[fabsroman]

Do the oil companies like Exxon, Citgo, Mobil, etc. actually drill the oil out of the ground or do they just buy it from the Middle East OPEC Nations at the $70 price?

Does anybody know where the majority of crude oil comes from and which companies/nations are selling this crude?

[Tater]

People make fun of me driving my minivan instead of my truck but the price difference makes it worth it. Especially when they're paying $90 to fill their trucks and I'm paying half that for my van.

[DogYeller]

OPEC countries have nationalized their oil fields. They decide how much each member country will produce. They put their oil on the same market with everyone else. If they flood the market the price goes down if they decrease production the price goes up.

They really want to sell us finished product and if we don't build some refineries in the US, OPEC will have control of the price of gasoline, not just oil.


This site has a lot of good information.
Oil Price History and Analysis (http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm)
The Prize by Daniel Yergin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671799320/qid=1125660752/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-2179025-3924125?v=glance&s=books), is the best history of international oil exploration I've read.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

go to www.howstuffworks.com and type in how gasoline prices work. ( this is my favorite hang out on the web by the way) This also takes you to the Department of Energy that explains more. I have put an opinion in our local news paper soon to be printed about this. I have contacted my reps, congressmen, etc too on what they can do to help in this time of 'need'. Quick rundown: In July05 the cost of a gallon of gasoline breaks down like this. crude oil=55%. Rifining 18%. Distribution and market 8% and the taxes 19%. Since the cost of a regular gallon of gasoline varies month to month so does the TAX % alone which varies from 19% to as much as 32%. Taxes include federal, state, local, sales taxes. So our gov can help out by cutting a few % from the cost at the pumps...even if this is a temp fix...why not?..Contact your locals on this....bring it to their attention....
Fabs and anyone else saying get a hybrid..what the hey..ever load your tools, equipment be it hunt or work or camping into a VW?..Oh I forgot the wife and kids....I have....and it isn't pretty...Jobs are so easy to find anymore too that you can give up your pension, senority, benifits and move down the street for a job....where have you all been?....People are lucky to find an opening at the local sheets store after the Mills all closed down...Yea I think I will sell my (what I paid for it) house and move down the street to be closer to Mc D.....and then buy the same kind of house for 4x as much as I paid for mine...daaaa?...Let me see $200 month house payments at mill worker prices opposed to $800 month payments at McD wages...???? I wll tell ya too house payments at $400 went to $800 because of TAXES....We need to start over in America..Revolution..get rid of the taxes remember the reason we left England to begin with....And get rid of those that pray on the public and some of the reasons we all have to pay so much for everything to begin with....I know who they are....and sure you do too....

[M.T. Pockets]

I live in Minnesota, near several ethanol plants. For years we've been hearing how ethanol would be the answer to our nation's fuel problems. It very well may be, but don't count on it lowering your fuel costs.

For example, last year at this time gas was about $1.75. E-85 (85% ethanol, 15% gas) was about $1.45.

Today, gas is $3.11 and E-85 is $2.79. So lets say that the 15% gas portion of this product has doubled, and shipping/transportation is probably another nickel, and cost to produce ethanol another nickel, this should put the price of E-85 at around $1.80. Where is the rest of the price mark up in ethanol coming from ? Demand for the final product.

By the way, ethanol is made from corn. Last year corn was selling for around $1.80 a bushell. Today, it's selling for $1.52 a bushell.

So, as big of a backer of ethanol as I am, I've come to realize that it's not going to help the final user with any substantial savings, nor is it going to profit the corn producer. I do believe there are substantial profits to be made in ethanol between the farmer and the gas pump, and ethanol producers, such as Archer Daniels Midland, are heavily subsidized.

I believe most of us are capitolists, and like it or not, this is capitolism at work.

[DaMadman]

Bottom line is, there is no gas shortage, there is no crude oil shortage.... There are billions upon billion gallons of oil being pumped out of the ground every day. OPEC and the United States Government control how much is released to the public and at what rate the refineries are pumping out finished product (GASOLINE), None of the refineries are producing at 100% and a lot of the crude that is being pumped isn't going into the market, it is going into stockpiles.

For everyone that says HOW IS THE GOV"T SUPPOSED TO CONTROL IT??

Got news for you, THEY ALREADY DO !!

If The Gov't and OPEC and the Big oil companies would quit freaking stockpiling crude and run the damn refineries at somewhere near their able capacity there would be so much gas that we couldn't use it all and prices would go down.

Like I said there is not shortage, just like there was no shortage back int he 70's.... TRhe Crude is there, get the **** to the refineries and bump up production and quit gouging the hell out of the American citizens.

As far as all that crap that Fabs spewed about living closer to work and working closer to home.... Yeah OK I drive an hour one way because I like to sit in traffic...... Oh wait a minute maybe it is because The area I work in is not safe to live in, much less fit to raise a child, much less send my son to school with a bunch of gang banging hoodlum drug addict thugs. Oh and Yeah I am certainly going to give up a gov't job with full benefits and all my retirement to go to work for a private company closer to where I live now. Sure that is totally feasible.. Let me get right on that :rolleyes:

[DaMadman]

oh I forgot one thing, Let's everone run out and sell our SUVs and Trucks (I don't know who is supposed to buy them but...) lets all run out and sell them right away and buy a hybrid.... now so that in 5-10 (if they last that long) when all the batteries start going bad and need to be replaced then we can have that problem on our hands. What are we going to do with all the lead and acid that comes out of all those dead batteries :eek:

Recycle them? Yeah ok...because the recycling thing is working so well in the United States now......

[Rocky Raab]

The only problem with that argument, Madman, is that we ARE limited in capacity.

They haven't built a new refinery in 30 years due to environmental whackos and NIMBY types.

Existing refineries were all operating at about 98% of full capacity round the clock (except when they would go down for maintenance).

We've just lost something like 20% of our total refining capacity due to the hurricane. Nobody knows when it might get running again - or if the whackos will LET them get running again.

If Bush would declare a national emergency and suspend enviro-laws so we could build 15 or 20 new refineries, and also allow development of Alaskan oil, we'd be fine in a year or so. Will he? I doubt it. So much for the idea that Bush's main goal is to support the oil industry.

[Steverino]

I have been following along on this post and was just getting ready to essentiaaly post what Rocky just put down...

Gas refining in this country is the biggest bottleneck in our country's gas supply and is what is currently driving up the price of fuel. Refineries have not been built (much like nuclear plants:rolleyes: because nobody seems to want them in their backyards but everyone b*tches and complains about higher energy costs) and have gotten by only through improvements in refining that have made them more efficient through the years, however, this has only kept pace as demand for fuel has risen in the last decade.

Contary to popular opinion, refineries are running at capacity. It wouldn't matter if OPEC sent a daily gifted boat-load of sweet crude over to the US with a lovely hand-written note and a fruit basket! We wouldn't have any more capacity to refine it and with the lost refining capacity in the Gulf now after Katrina, this situation will not rectify itself permanantly until more refining capacity is added in this country.

I fully agree that if the government truly cared about this issue they would support the building of additional refineries. I personally feel though that we should also strive to lower dependance on foreign oil and the government has not taken a leadership role in this arena.

[DaMadman]

Sorry Guys, I just do not buy the sales pitch that the refineries we have were running af full capacity before the Hurricane, It wouldn't make economic sense to do it, If they were runnig at full capacity they would be making more fuel then they could sell and that is not good business sense to make more of something than you can sell.

I think now that the Refinery down in the gulf is gone the refineries that are left would have to run wide open to keep up with demand but from everything I have ever heard and read they could do it without too much trouble

If it is the case that one refinery goes down and gas prices skyrocket in one week, how come the prices at the pump do not jump sky high everytime they take a plant offline to maintenance a refinery plant?

[DogYeller]

So Madman, what you're saying is we don't need to build any new refineries?

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Don't forget too that not only gasoline gets made from the crude oil...At the different stages of refinery, we get the things like gasoline,diesel, kerosene home heating oil and ahhh..get this...highway emulsion for blacktop...you would be suprised how much emulsion is used to make a ton of asphalt. I use to haul it in tankers for them. Asphalt.. the kind PennDot here in Pa dumps over the hill at the end of the day because they didn't get it all down...down in what?...They sure don't use it to patch potholes...lol...I just spent well over $1000 for front end repair on my truck due to bad roads..they pave roads and next year take them back up and do them over...WASTE...and with this waste going on, I don't see any need for me to ration my needs..The governor just gave tax relief on gasoline in the southern states and that is what is needed here in Pa and all the rest of the states inc Canada..Our great governor Randell just imposed an added few cents per gallon to give (transportation) to the people that ride busses and I let him hear about that too...We that pay at the pumps and the initial cost of a vehicle, + cost of insurance ( because everyone finds a lawyer and sues)..which by the way is why we can't afford medical insurance either...have the cost of inspections..( I have to have emmission sticker at $50 while just 6 miles from here all around they need one...the cost of vehicle repairs as stated above and they NEED to tax us at the pump so someone with no vehicle can ride the bus....they did this because they didn't want to raise the cost of bus fare....we at the pumps pay for everything in taxes....contact the reps and let them cut some of the taxes.......if that is the only solution because as they lead us to believe the problem lies in the cost of crude oil....NOT.

[fabsroman]

DaMadman,

Seems as though you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to live an hour away from work in a nice neighborhood, you want to send your kids to a nice school, you want to keep your gov't job with all the benefits, and you want gas prices to be low.

Got news for you, the execs and stockholders at all the oil companies want the same thing as you and they need to make money to get it. Everybody knew what they were into when they took their jobs and bought their vehicles. If it was a long commute, they knew they would be in for a doozy if gas prices went up. If they bought a SUV or truck, they knew they would be in for a doozy if gas prices went up.

Now gas prices went up and everybody is complaining because they want there cake and they want to eat it too. Just like you have the freedom to live where you live and work where you work, the gas companies should have the freedom to charge whatever they want for gas until we stop buying it.

Everybody wants to lower taxes, but they also want to get rid of traffic congestion by building more roads. We want better police officers and Court systems but we don't want to pay taxes.

Everybody wants, but nobody is willing to give up anything either.

For what I paid for my townhouse, I could have bought a 3,200 sf house in Gainesville, Virginia right next to where my fiance works. However, we determined that I could not change clientele, but she could change Target locations, so we bought in Maryland right in the middle of my clients and the Courts.

Yes, I would love to live in a 3,200 sf house that is brand new instead of a 1,800 sf townhouse that is 7 years old. Yes, I would love to drive my new truck more instead of having to drive my Taurus all the time now because of gas prices. I would even love to own my own farm.

However, I understand that I cannot have everything I want in this world. Americans are starting to get soft in that they want everything and they want it today. That is why the average American household has several thousands of dollars on credit cards at a time and they cannot get rid of the debt. Yes, I want to buy an Armalite AR-10, a Beretta PX4 Storm when it is available, a Beretta 687EL Gold, a .25-06 Ruger MKII77VT, and a Ford 500, Ford Fusion, Ford Explorer, Ford Expedition, or Lincoln Zephyr, but I realize that I cannot have everything I want. I want a 5,000 sf house right next to where I am currently living, but I understand that I cannot have that either.

Like the rest of you, I want gas prices to be cheaper, along with the cost of food, health insurance, malpractice insurance, housing, taxes, guns, ammunition and everything else I want, however, that is not the way it works.

Everybody complaining about the gas prices reminds me of people complaining about health insurance.

We have a bill of rights and that bill does not include the right to:

1. Gas
2. Health Insurance
3. A luxury house
4. A SUV
5. A long happy life

We all need to prioritize what is important and go from there. In my area, everybody lives in Frederick and further north and commutes down to Bethesda and DC to work.

At the end of the day, I just don't see spending 10 hours a week on the road commuting back and forth to work or spending the money on gas. Assuming that it is an hour drive each way and you are doing 60 mph on average that would be 31,200 commuting miles a year. If your car gets 25 mpg, that would be 1,248 gallons a year to commute which ends up being $3,744 a year just in gas if gas is $3 a gallon. If you buy a $20,000 car that will last for 150,000 miles before needing to be replaced, that would be $4,000 a year in depreciation on that car. We are already at $8,000 a year and we haven't even touched the cost of insurance when you are truthful and tell them that you have a 60 mile one way commute to and from work each day or the cost of maintaining the vehicle. So, lets just round it out to $10,000 a year to commute. Might as well spend that money on a house closer to work even if your mortgage is an extra $1,000 a month.

Not to mention all the time wasted driving to and from work which is 520 hours a year if you have to commute one hour each way.

Stop crying and do something about the situation, and choose what is important to you and make the sacrifices you need to make to get it.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by DogYeller
So Madman, what you're saying is we don't need to build any new refineries?

No I am not saying that we shouldn't build new refineries. I think we should, so that we can refine as much as possible and drop the prices even more.

i think NEW refineries would be a good Idea, that way they couldn't use it an an excuse to jack up the gas prices.

What I am saying is that from everything that I have read and seen, the refineries that we do have right now CAN keep up with demand if they up production. They might not be able to stockpile anything extra but they could keep up.

But new refineries would be great, the more refineries the more they can produce and the more competition there would be and the better gas prices would get for you and I. As I understand it the New Technology the new refineries are more efficient and produce less polution than the ones we have now

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by fabsroman
DaMadman,

Seems as though you want your cake and you want to eat it too. You want to live an hour away from work in a nice neighborhood, you want to send your kids to a nice school, you want to keep your gov't job with all the benefits, and you want gas prices to be low.

Got news for you, the execs and stockholders at all the oil companies want the same thing as you and they need to make money to get it. Everybody knew what they were into when they took their jobs and bought their vehicles. If it was a long commute, they knew they would be in for a doozy if gas prices went up. If they bought a SUV or truck, they knew they would be in for a doozy if gas prices went up.

Now gas prices went up and everybody is complaining because they want there cake and they want to eat it too. Just like you have the freedom to live where you live and work where you work, the gas companies should have the freedom to charge whatever they want for gas until we stop buying it.

Everybody wants to lower taxes, but they also want to get rid of traffic congestion by building more roads. We want better police officers and Court systems but we don't want to pay taxes.

Everybody wants, but nobody is willing to give up anything either.

For what I paid for my townhouse, I could have bought a 3,200 sf house in Gainesville, Virginia right next to where my fiance works. However, we determined that I could not change clientele, but she could change Target locations, so we bought in Maryland right in the middle of my clients and the Courts.

Yes, I would love to live in a 3,200 sf house that is brand new instead of a 1,800 sf townhouse that is 7 years old. Yes, I would love to drive my new truck more instead of having to drive my Taurus all the time now because of gas prices. I would even love to own my own farm.

However, I understand that I cannot have everything I want in this world. Americans are starting to get soft in that they want everything and they want it today. That is why the average American household has several thousands of dollars on credit cards at a time and they cannot get rid of the debt. Yes, I want to buy an Armalite AR-10, a Beretta PX4 Storm when it is available, a Beretta 687EL Gold, a .25-06 Ruger MKII77VT, and a Ford 500, Ford Fusion, Ford Explorer, Ford Expedition, or Lincoln Zephyr, but I realize that I cannot have everything I want. I want a 5,000 sf house right next to where I am currently living, but I understand that I cannot have that either.

Like the rest of you, I want gas prices to be cheaper, along with the cost of food, health insurance, malpractice insurance, housing, taxes, guns, ammunition and everything else I want, however, that is not the way it works.

Everybody complaining about the gas prices reminds me of people complaining about health insurance.

We have a bill of rights and that bill does not include the right to:

1. Gas
2. Health Insurance
3. A luxury house
4. A SUV
5. A long happy life

We all need to prioritize what is important and go from there. In my area, everybody lives in Frederick and further north and commutes down to Bethesda and DC to work.

At the end of the day, I just don't see spending 10 hours a week on the road commuting back and forth to work or spending the money on gas. Assuming that it is an hour drive each way and you are doing 60 mph on average that would be 31,200 commuting miles a year. If your car gets 25 mpg, that would be 1,248 gallons a year to commute which ends up being $3,744 a year just in gas if gas is $3 a gallon. If you buy a $20,000 car that will last for 150,000 miles before needing to be replaced, that would be $4,000 a year in depreciation on that car. We are already at $8,000 a year and we haven't even touched the cost of insurance when you are truthful and tell them that you have a 60 mile one way commute to and from work each day or the cost of maintaining the vehicle. So, lets just round it out to $10,000 a year to commute. Might as well spend that money on a house closer to work even if your mortgage is an extra $1,000 a month.

Not to mention all the time wasted driving to and from work which is 520 hours a year if you have to commute one hour each way.

Stop crying and do something about the situation, and choose what is important to you and make the sacrifices you need to make to get it.

Sorry Fabs but you sound rediculous, spewing that crap about having my cake and eat it too.
#1 I live in a DECENT house in a DECENT neighborhood. I don't live in one of these houses that are going on the market for $500,000 I live in a modest brick rambler out in the country on an acre and a half and my house cost me $125,000 8 years ago and is now worth more than I could afford to buy it for.

I don't think that living in a decent neighborhood so my kids don't live in a crime infested area and don't go to school with punks and drug addicts, and having a decent paying job is having my cake and eating it too. It think that I leave my house the minute my son gets on the bus and don't get home until 7-7:30 everynight, My wife leaves the house at 5:30-6:00 and gets home to get my son off the bus so we don't incur daycare fees so that we can afford to live where we live and keep my family away from SOME of the crime and bullshit. Having my Cake and eating it too huh?




To Top that off I drive the vehicles I drive out of neccesity, I have a Bronco II that is on it's last leg because I drive it 60 miles round trip everday and I chose that vehicle because it gets decent gas mileage and has 4 wheel drive so that I can get to work in the winter when it snows, and I have the dodge truck that I use when the Bronco is down for repair and if I need to go to the dump or get mulch or pull my camper or any number of things you use a truck for. Of course I could just buy some little P.O.S. compact car that gets 33 MPG, stay home when it snows and hope and pray on a daily basis that I don't get in an accident and get sandwiched between an SUV and a tractor trailer and get killed.

Not to metion that gasoline isn't something I WANT to buy and spend my Money on, it is something that I HAVE to have along with millions of other americans.

How about someone that went to college, gets to work from home, lives in and affluent neighborhood in a $450,000 town house owns 2 vehicles and has the option to just up and trade one of them in on a hybrid, doesn't have the expense of a kid in college and one in public school., and when they do have kids will probably send them to private school......... Hmmm who's eating cake here

My freaking point is there is no GD reason that the United Stated is one of the wealthiest Countries in the World, we are exporting Crude oil every damn day to other countries and yet we are paying $3-$4 for a gallon of gas. There is no excuse for it

[BILLY D.]

ohhhhhhh, boy i can't wait to hear the glazed over answer to that one madman.

stay tuned for further developments.

p.s. excellent reply.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by BILLY D.
ohhhhhhh, boy i can't wait to hear the glazed over answer to that one madman.

stay tuned for further developments.

p.s. excellent reply.

Thanks Billy.

Fabs and I have known each other for a few years now and even shoot clays together on occasion but that last post was a bit more than I could take and not hold my tongue Hehehehe :D

[Rocky Raab]

I hope I'm not glazed over, Billy. But here goes...

(Oh, first let me congratulate all for keeping this discussion civil. Good guys all here at HC. Some of the other boards I read are wall-to-wall flames over this topic. You folks are the best.)

Not to put words in Fab's mouth, but the way I read his "cake" post was this: We all make our choices, but having made them, we ought to suck it up and live with the inevitable results of those choices.

Neither Fab's nor Madman's choices are good - or bad. They just are. I'd guess that those choices were made because each of them thought them the best solution. Maybe they were then, and maybe they still are the best. Or maybe not. Nobody knows what the next five minutes will bring us.

But I can promise that whatever happens, it probably wasn't expected!

The choices we make every day are a crap shoot. Maybe that SUV saved your life on a snowy road, and you don't even know it. Maybe that short commute did the same. On the other hand, people die every day because of choices they made. Maybe we just wanted five minutes more sleep, and that put us a tad late, and so we run that long yellow light, and... You get the idea.

Back to the point of the thread (at last LOL!)...

There's no point bitching about the price of gas. It is what it is. You can pay it (that's one decision) or not (and that's another) but we all need to abide by the results of the choice. Nothing you can do as an individual will change it. Nothing, that is, unless you single-handedly build your own refinery (and lotsa luck with THAT decision, the envirowhackos and laws being what they are).

But if you do build it, don't whine about how expensive it is to run the thing, and how you can't break even unless you raise the prices. It was your choice!

Thanks again for the calm and rational talk, guys. If we get together, the beer's on me.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by Rocky Raab
I hope I'm not glazed over, Billy. But here goes...

(Oh, first let me congratulate all for keeping this discussion civil. Good guys all here at HC. Some of the other boards I read are wall-to-wall flames over this topic. You folks are the best.)

Not to put words in Fab's mouth, but the way I read his "cake" post was this: We all make our choices, but having made them, we ought to suck it up and live with the inevitable results of those choices.

Neither Fab's nor Madman's choices are good - or bad. They just are. I'd guess that those choices were made because each of them thought them the best solution. Maybe they were then, and maybe they still are the best. Or maybe not. Nobody knows what the next five minutes will bring us.

But I can promise that whatever happens, it probably wasn't expected!

The choices we make every day are a crap shoot. Maybe that SUV saved your life on a snowy road, and you don't even know it. Maybe that short commute did the same. On the other hand, people die every day because of choices they made. Maybe we just wanted five minutes more sleep, and that put us a tad late, and so we run that long yellow light, and... You get the idea.

Back to the point of the thread (at last LOL!)...

There's no point bitching about the price of gas. It is what it is. You can pay it (that's one decision) or not (and that's another) but we all need to abide by the results of the choice. Nothing you can do as an individual will change it. Nothing, that is, unless you single-handedly build your own refinery (and lotsa luck with THAT decision, the envirowhackos and laws being what they are).

But if you do build it, don't whine about how expensive it is to run the thing, and how you can't break even unless you raise the prices. It was your choice!

Thanks again for the calm and rational talk, guys. If we get together, the beer's on me.

Rocky you are right in your word as usual, and building my own refinery is on my list of things to do as soon as I fine myself and old deisel car or truck.
I am seriously thinking that if gas stays up over $2.50 a gallon for too long I am going to start looking into the local restraunts that have used cooking oil and offer to haul it away for free.

Most large restraunts have lots of used cooking oil that they use in the deepfryers and they have to pay to have it hauled off.
Instead I am thinking about getting a old deisel vehicle and making Bio-deisel out of that oil. It is easy to do and would help me as well as the restraunts.

for any of you that already run deisel trucks or cars you should look into it.

The recipe consists of used cooking oil, Lye (reddevil drain cleaner), and a small amount of methanol (racing fuel)

I watched a guy on TV make 35 gallons and it took 35 gallons of used cooking oil, added about a cup of lye and a half gallon of racing fuel (methanol) and filtered it to get out any suspended food particles and pumped it straight into an F-350 deisel truck.

All of the on campus shuttle buses at the University of Maryland run on biodeisel made this way, the science department makes the fuel for them.


I'll wait and see if the prices drop back down first but if they don't this is seriously a solution that I am thinking about giving a try.

When Cigarettes went sky high in Maryland and the police started cracking the whip on buying them in Virginia and bringing them back to Maryland I bought my own cigarette machine, bulk tobacco, filter tubes and made my own cigarettes for almost a year. Now that the law has been cleared up and set that it is legal to buy up to 2 cartons for personal use, I normally go to Va for something or other about once a month and I just pick up 2 carton for me and 2 for the wife and since she doesn't smoke very often they last me till the next time I get to Va.

Point being it wouldn't be a stretch for me to setup a strainer and mix up my own bio-deisel out in the garage to save a couple hundre a month on my gas bill

[Lilred]

The answer to all our problems: buy a horse ;)

On a lighter note (not to butt into ya'lls compellin discussion)
but folks round here was goin as crazy as a cat in a room fulla rockin chairs today. We dont have alot of those "big" new gas stations here..most of em are the old pumps that you caint put a credit card in and they dont even have the digital numbers on em..remember them? They'll reset the "odometer" readin when ya turn em on...lol..we are backwoods..and a bunch of old fashioned hardheads I reckon.
Anyways..those pumps stopped readin at 2.99$..there was no number 3 in em..so when gas hit 3 dollars here..all the old gas stations couldnt sell gas..and everybody thought we'd have to hole up fer a while lol..it was perty funny.
On another note..lumber is insane. The lumber market is gittin turned inside out..we spent most of the day today decidin on what we should limit buyers to and whatnot. Was perty crazy today..on that note..I just reminded myself how tirit I am.
I still say..buy a horse ;)

[fabsroman]

Rocky understands my post completely.

My point is that everybody has made choices in life and everybody wants to complain about how bad they have it.

Me, I made the choice to put myself through law school and was poor as could be until I was 28. My parents paid for undergrad, but that was only if I agreed to commute from their house to college. Undergrad cost them $8,000 total. I worked for 2 years out of undergrad to try and save enough to go to law school. Law school cost me around $30,000. During that entire time, I barely spent any money on anything and drove a 1980 Ford Fairmont even though I had the Mustang because I CHOSE to keep the Mustang like new. The Fairmont up and died on me when I graduated law school and I had to buy the Taurus, with hardly enough money for a down payment, because I just got out of school. Good thing is that I got out of school debt free, with the exception of the 0% interest loan on the Taurus.

Throughout law school, I CHOSE to live with my parents, which wasn't always fun, but they were gracious enough to allow me to live there for a very modest rent amount. I CHOSE this so I could graduate without any loans. The first year in law school I worked as a video store clerk part time making a little over $5 an hour. My second and third years of law school I worked as a law clerk making $12 an hour. Almost all of that money went toward paying for law school. So I wasn't rich. When I graduated law school, I was offered a job for $35,000 a year and $40,000 a year once I got sworn in. It has been 7 years since then and I have been making pretty good money over the last 5 with my practice starting to get really busy right now.

So, lets just make one thing clear here, things haven't been all roses for me either.

I would have loved to be married with kids by the time I was 25 so that I wouldn't be an old man when they grow up, but I chose differently so I could make a better future for me and subsequently my family.

We all make decisions in life, but we shouldn't expect the federal government to bail us out of everything.

DaMadman,

You made the decision to live far from work so that you could afford a decent house in a decent neighborhood. You bought your house 8 years ago when they were reasonable. I could be on here complaining to no end about how ridiculous house prices are because I bought my first house last year. 7 years ago, this place cost $156,000 and I could have made that money clear in 4 or 5 years to pay the entire thing off. Now, the townhouse I bought cost $333,000 and in the one year I have been here, it has gone to $425,000. You can imagine what the houses around here are, they are astronomical. What the wife and I have been looking at is in the $1,000,000 range. The cheapest homes around here are $700,000 unless you want to live in a house from World War II in the worst part of the city.

Here is an example of wanting your cake and wanting to eat it too. You want to be safe while driving so you want to drive a big car. Yet, you don't want to pay the additional price for gas. That leads me to another point from my earlier post. Everybody wants things, but we cannot have it all. You cannot have a big, rather safe SUV, and a cheap gas bill when you live a million miles from work.

I was in Arizona for my honeymoon and saw land for sale for $100 an acre. With just $10,000 I could have a 100 acres to build a house on and live in style. Problem is, I wouldn't have any clients. Your complaining about the price of gas and your commute to work is akin to me moving to Arizona in the middle of nowhere and then complaining about not having any clients and having to drive 2 hours to the supermarket at these gas prices. Hence, I quickly decided that buying a place out there would not be the right choice.

Now, I also know where you live and I know there are neighborhoods closer to DC than where you live and they aren't that bad. Do you work near a metro stop? If so, you can move right by me, drive 5 miles to the metro and take the metro into work for $5 a day and Montgomery County schools are some of the best in the nation.

See, there are always alternatives to get around things other than just complaining about them.

I used to hate taking the metro into DC, and I used to complain about the parking conditions in DC, the cost of parking in DC, and the traffic to get into DC. Decided that the negatives of the metro weren't as bad as the negatives about driving into DC, so the metro it is when I go to DC.

I have been watching 20/20 tonight and this post kind of reminds me about what I saw on there regarding the hurricane. Everybody is complaining about the situation and blaming the federal government for not preventing it or bailing them out from it quick enough. There is only so much the federal government can do without raising taxes, but nobody wants taxes raised either because WE ALL WANT OUR CAKE AND WE WANT TO EAT IT TOO. It would be kind of like California complaining about a catastrophic earthquake. Hello, you knew what it was when you moved there. New Orleans was protected by decades old levies, the failure of which would cause a flood in the city. The people knew that while they were living there, but now it is the governments fault that all this happened. People knew that they would consume a lot of gas by living far away from work and by buying SUV's, but now it is the government's fault that the price of gas went up and they are suffering. We all want to blame somebody else for our bad times.

Quite simply, I was raised by some very conservative parents straight from Italy after World War II. My uncle and aunt on my father's side remember the bombers dropping bombs in neighboring cities. My parents came over here with pretty much nothing. They worked hard, hardly ever complained about anything, and have done pretty well for themselves. When the "oil crisis" of the 70's hit, my dad stopped driving a pontiac sled and bought a very small FIAT. He also bought a lot of gas cans and filled them up from the Pontiac when he could get that car filled up. Thing is, he isn't complaining about the gas prices right now. He just went out before the prices went up and he filled up all of his gas cans. He doesn't drive his Crown Victoria or his F-150 around anymore, but drives his Chevy (gag) Cavalier instead.

I guess I am just tired of people making choices in life and then complaining about them later on when things change. Like I said, I could be on here complaining day and night about the housing situation in my area, and think I even did a couple of times in the past, but it is what it is, so I just have to increase my legal rate or the number of hours I work/bill. LOL

In the end, we can all complain night and day about the gas prices. It won't change anything, but if it makes you guys feel better, be my guest.

I seriously doubt that the federal government could or should set the price of gas. I also agree with the tax on gas because it is used to create and maintain the roads that people use to burn the gas on. Why should somebody who barely drives or never drives have to take up the cost of building roads?

One last thing, nobody NEEDS to buy gas. We CHOOSE and are FORCED to buy gas as a result of the previous decisions we make in life. If you truly couldn't afford gas, you would figure something out, but the current gas price is merely affecting your life style so you are complaining about it.

Guess what, the current gas price and housing market are affecting my lifestyle too, alond with a million other things, but I'll continue to make decisions in the future on how to deal with all these issues.

[BILLY D.]

the above reply is just what i expected. :(

[fabsroman]

Billy D,

Sorry I made you have to use a sad face, but I am glad that I didn't disappoint you or surprise you with my response. Everybody expects the federal government to solve their problems, but that just cannot be done. There is no way to make everybody happy.

Alas, you guys complaining about the gas prices will receive a reprieve.

"Bush also issued a memorandum saying the hurricane had created a "severe energy supply interruption" and formally authorized a drawdown of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. He said that the disruption had resulted in a severe increase in the price of oil products and that the price rise could damage the national economy." Quoted from a Yahoo article.

While cleaning up the kitchen and garage tonight, my parents have always said that Americans don't know what hard times are, and I think the rise in gas prices and Katrina pretty much prove that. My parents do not think that Americans are tough enough to make it through tough times, and they might actually be right. Don't get me wrong, my parents are diehard Americans, but they also know what it is like to live in tough times. Billy D, are you old enough to remember the Great Depression? I would think that the generation that lived through that might understand what hard times are like. I dated a girl once that had grandparents that lived through the Great Depression and even though they had a good amount of money, they saved everything that MIGHT be of use.

My parents are the same way as that girl's grandparents and I am always telling them to throw that crap out because the cost of storing it is more than the cost of buying it, but I guess I am only thinking of the here and now. What happens if you cannot buy that stuff anywhere. Then it becomes priceless.

Heck, I don't think I am as tough as my parents.

I guess it is a good thing we can still get gas. Otherwise, Danica would not be able to pursue her rise to fame. LOL

[Spammy]

Fabs,fabs,fabs.:D


Thought about you guys the other day and saw you had posted.
Alllways nice to read your post.You must be a pretty good lawer lol.I agree with you on somethings nay on others.I remembered you as always fair and willing to either concede a point or agree to disagree with aplomb.I agree you city slickers may be getting soft but there is 1.2 million idahoans who are very tough americans:D .(hehehehehehe)

I'm more concerned with the nations current crises.We do have a petro reserve but it is unrefined.You know we are in trouble when the french are agreeing to release refined gas from ther own reserve with the other 29 euro nations.

I also was thinking hybrid.Chevy came out this year with a 1/2 ton.I was going to wait for a year and let them work the bugs out
.
Dont understand the hostility from some of the post.Its a fact Americans want it all.Lets take inventory.I own and run daily 2 fullsize,2 midsize trucks.Toys I use on weekends, 3 dirt bikes for kids,my quad the boat.Do i over consume?You bet your ass.That is what i was taught.

Its also a fact we are going to pay the piper some day.Sooner or later we are going to run out of fossil fuel no disputing that.I had a really disturbing thought what if there is no plan by big oil for an alternate fuel?

As always Fabs you put a smile on my face with your well thought out post.I wont wait a year until i stop by again.

Mike

[Rocky Raab]

Hey, I thought about YOU just the other day!

Welcome back, bud.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Buy a horse...yea we were just talking about the Amish and how lucky they are about now..I bet the cost of hay would sky rocket to $6 a bale then...and feeding my 300 horses in my truck for $3 seems pretty cheap then..:D ...anyhow, I moved closer to my work by 1/2 the miles..even close enough that I had walked and rode a bicycle before...my house before was paid for and I managed to pay this one off too...just before my work place moved 25 miles away to another county because of the taxes here...so what was I to do then?..we car pooled but in the trucking industry, not everyone gets done at the same time of the day like a 9-5 job..so we were forced again to fend for ourselves..and I think everyone here at h/c is a survivor or you wouldn't be here..we have all bitten the bullet so to say to get this far but you all have to admit there is needless overkill on things like taxes, prices of gasoline, housing, etc..I just think the gov can give us a gasoline tax break now in the time of need to help keep the economy going. Yea I chose to buy a truck..after owning a few impractical mini vehicles..how about the vw beetle?..I owned 2..room?..none...would be kind a tough putting a 200lb truck tire in the trunk or on the roof..bigger vehicle...needed..not wanted..I think we all have a gripe at the government here when they jump at the chance to help the world and not the homeland..so asking them to do so isn't out of the question..and I agree those in the south were told weeks ahead water 30' + were heading their way..so I would have pushed my grocery cart with my belongings to high ground instead of waiting for the hand out...true, we all want...the opp is there for all of us..just need to step aside and let ourself pass..cause we are in our own way..unless we depend on something else like gasoline....that someone else controls...oh..they fine ya for letting your horse poop on the street here too....lol...and you're not allowed to recycle it in the fields either because envirowhackers say so...we need a good lawyer to set them people straight...know of any?...lol..pump oil in Alaska...yee ha..

[Lilred]

Ya know..I just got to thinkin bout somethin readin these here posts...talkin bout how we all made decisions etc...and that high gas would affect our lifestyle etc.

See..ya'll are fergittin bout the poor folks. And yer also fergittin that all decisions, good er bad, was based on what you thought at the moment you made that decision. Take me and my sister fer example.

I graduated from high school. I went to werk. I have 2 wonderful children..a bunch of beagles..a lil chunk of fertile dirt I call home..and I am not rich. Nowheres near rich.
But I listen to my dogs run at night while I watch the lightin bugs and the stars.I fill my own freezer w/ meat & fish.I watch the coons, owls, possums, ducks and beaver doin their normal things while catchin all them fish. I have trapped, raised baccer, played banjo, cut wood, plowed fields and raisin 2 kids and a pack of pups.
My sister graduated from James Madison Univ. w/ a masters..mba er bma er whatever it is. She werks fer Suntrust bank in some huge downtown Richmond buildin makin almost twice than I do a yr. She just bought her house..no kids..but a tv the size of Texas.
Not to mention all her fancy gadgets, gizmos and 500$ pocketbooks..(which I almost whooped her with the dam thing after she told me how much she paid fer it)

These were our decisions..and we now know..that I probaly shoulda went to college. And my sister now knows..that the stars are more beautiful on the riverbank than they are on tv. And she also knows that her great comprehension of books aint gave her nuthin but a profound loss in common sense. That poor girl aint got the common sense god gave a rock..and would never survive if hard times came upon her.
So..point bein..is that everybody's decisions would probaly change if they knew then what they know now..and nobody could ever cover every hole in the water bucket iffin it's shot w/ a load of buckshot. In other werds..you caint sit there and say
"oh dear, I caint live near the ocean cause of a hurricane..I caint live in the mtns cause of earthquakes..I caint live in the north cause it snows and I caint buy a truck cause in 20 years gas'll be 300$ per gallon"

So..fer you high falooters..let's git scientific-like.
Remember hypothesis and that there educated guess??
You cannot have a 100% probable outcome.

Some people caint afford to live closer to werk...I caint.
Land in my county is now 1,000$ an acre. 1 county over..it's runnin 20,000$ an acre. This is true...ask anyone from here.
(Trex can vouch fer me)
Some people caint afford gas cause gas prices and such went up..and their wages aint.

Some people can afford both of the above mentioned and complain anyway.
And..most good folks in this werld gits screwed.

Therefer..Lilred's Lesson concludes with this...there is no blame to put on yerself and none on this here Federal U.S. of A government. There is also all blame placed on you & the federal U.S of A government. And just like me and my sister...it's all a warsh.

By the way..we can have our cake and eat it too..lean close and I'll tell you Lilred's secret in life...ya ready?
Put the most enjoyment in things that money caint buy.
That's what my Pop told me when I was a pea sprout..and that right there is the very reason why I could care less bout what my sister or anybody else has.
That and do the best you can do..cause on counta..that's all any of us can do. You caint shun any soul..poor ner rich..fer doin their best..even iffin they fail at it.

[Rocky Raab]

Seems like there's a whole lotta wisdom in that lil red head.

What was that song? A Country Boy Will Survive. Gals, too.

Maybe that is a lesson we all need to re-learn.

(Sweetie, your line about the stars from the riverbank is pure poetry.)

[PJgunner]

Well Fabs, you say I/we should cut back on our driving. That's a good idea. Now suppose you tell me how? My 1993 toyota 4x4 pick up has 75,600 miles on it. It will be 12 years old come October. (Mileage rounded up to estimated amount to October.) That's a whole whopping 6300 miles a year, average. My wife's 1998 Explorer, also a 4x4 as we had planned on using it for travel at retirement, has a whole 27,800 miles on it, again estimated tot eh month of October as we bought it that month. WOW! a whole 3,971 miles a year. As for travel, one son lives in Las Vegas, I have a daughter in Logan Utah, another in Albuquerque New Mexico and one more in Houston Texas. I have ten grandchildren I cannot afford to drive to and see.
My house and vehicles are paid for. Medical bills and soaring proerty taxes cut into the lifestyle. Cancer ain't cheap to live with, take my word for it. Betwen my wife and I, just the co-pay on our meds runs close to $500 a month, so yeah, I'm gonna *****, piss and moan about gas prices. With what we have left, we can go to the store for groceries, the pharmacy to pick up meds and go to the doctor. Oh, and we have no credit card debt. My wife and I are nearly in our 70s. There's no way, considering our health problems that we can find jobs, even if we were capable of doing them.
I douibt if they will ever lower taxes on gas, not even temporarily.
However, there are a few ideas I have that I think would make a difference.
One, I think it's Shell that's doing it, but they have their most profitable refinery in california. They make double digit profits from it, yet they want to shut it down and dismantle it. They refuse to sell it to someone else. Don't make sense to me.
I was listening to a radio program, and they had someone from the oil industry on. Did you know that they make 42 different blends of gasoline? Some states like California require one type of gas for enviornmental reasons another state wants something else. Notice, that the oil companies refuse to suggest that the states use the gas that pollutes the least nationwide, and ALL the states use that gas only. Just that alone could bring about close to 25 percent drop in the cost of refining gasoline.

So yes, I think that the oil companies are being too greedy. The cost of fuel goes up, the cost of delivering good goes up, people cannot afford the higher prices of said goods, and eventually, the people will finally see the light. just before it blows out.
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

PJ,

You are indeed in a tough situation, but you are in a situation that I think causes another problem for Americans. The health care situation. Everybody wants to live forever, yet they think this is a right. They think they should have the best insurance and the best medical care, even if they are poor just because they live in America.

35 years ago, a year before I was born, my grandfather was diagnosed with a condition that required surgery. The alternative being death. He had no health insurance and his family, my father included, could not afford the cost of the surgery. So, he packed his backs and went back to Italy to die. My dad doesn't sit and p!$$ and moan about the situation. It was what it was.

LIFE IS NOT FAIR. The rich get cancer, the poor live long lives. The cost of health care goes up because the quality goes up and the cost of gas goes up because too many people rely on gasoline. We are all dealt cards and have to live with them.


Lilred,

I agree completely with your post. Seven years ago, if I knew house prices were going to more than double to today's prices, I would have bought then. I didn't so I am dealing with the situation I have now. If you think land is expensive in your neighboring county, it is about $250,000 an acre around here.

As far as what makes people happy, I agree with you too. Some people need $500 purses, others need the stars, and yet others need both to be happy. I read a sign outside a church once that said, "Make money less of an issue by having less wants." From my previous posts, you can see it is kind of tough for me to do that, but I do believe in that statement.

For everybody, the gas prices have hit me too. For instance, my dog is at my parents right now and my dad was supposed to bring him up here because we were going to work on my garage. However, he made other plans while I was in New York this weekend. So, if I want to pick my dog up, I have to jump in the truck and burn about $15 of gas to pick him up and I do miss him. So, I feel the pain of the gas increase. I just don't see how my complaining about the gas increase, the cost of health care (which I used to pay $257 a month for health insurance before I got married), and the cost of housing is going to change anything, but I guess we all feel better if we complain about things.

I don't know how many of you watched the Matrix, but in that make believe world, the machines created a world for humans that was a utopia. No pain, no want, and supposedly humans could not deal with it. Sad but true.

[Lilred]

On the insurance thing..it would appear to me that the poor should be complainin more than the rich.
If a man werkin at the same place as you is makin 3 times what you are..his health insurance is say fer example..400$ a month.
Meanwhile...yer scrapin the bottom of the barrel to git the money to pay that same $400. a month.
Most people take the " I hate them health insurance bashturds" on a personal level...and I am guilty of that very thing.
Fer instance..my old ins. company would not pay fer my husband to git a CAT scan of his head when the doctor thought he might've had a brain tumor! I was so mad I could've beat Dale Jr at Daytona runnin on my own 2 feet. I called em up and said...
"Insurance is fer fools like me that CAINT afford them dam dr bills!"

See..I took it personally. We NEVER go to the doctor unless something is really wrong..so the 1 dam time I needed the insurance..it would not insure me. Hell..all the money I paid..I done paid fer that cat scan 4 times over.
I told the insurance company that too.
But..I was wrong fer gittin so riled..in a way.
Cause..it's what happens when hospitals dont git paid..prices go up, people abusin the system..etc etc etc..the vicious circle thing.
However.. you do have the right to expect their services in your time of need..and I did..and I dam well got it.

As fer as dyin...there are probaly alot of people out there who think it is their right to live er whatever..nobody wants to die..
I think it's a matter of instinct to survive..some just aint as aggressive at it as others. Some accept it..some refuse it..and some depend on others to keep them alive as if they owe it to them. But with the progress that has been made..alot of people survive cancer..and it certainly is worth at least tryin to git rid of it. That simple reason is why I dont rightly complain about my health insurance costs..because somewhere..somebody's mama, pop, sister, brother, daughter er son is dependin on it to survive..and git that chance that maybe they can live to see another day.

I dont fancy that sayin.."It is what it is"
"It is what you can make of it"

Dont get me wrong Fabs..you got a good head on yer shoulders.
Please dont think that I'm bustin on you..cause on counta..I aint.
Yer right...life aint fair. And we are all dealt cards..and we should have to deal with them. Agreed. Me personally..I'm just different is all.

My theory is: We are all dealt cards...and iffin you dont like em..beat the hell outta the dealer till ya git a hand you can play a good game with. ;)

[fabsroman]

Hey Lilred, I was sitting there reading your post and agreeing with everthing you were saying.

Just don't understand why you thought you were busting my chops. I deal with insurance companies all the time that deny my clients' claims. I am dealing with one right now that is completely denying a claim of my client wherein my client was rear-ended. Insurance companies are like other businesses. They are trying to make their customers happy and to turn a profit at the same time.

I don't fancy the saying "It is what it is" either. I think "It is what you make out of what it is." For instance, gasoline is what it is, but in the end, it is what you make out of it. Travel less. Ride a bike more. Schedule things so you can take care of more than one thing at a time. For instance, when I leave the office now, I make sure that I have at least a couple clients in the same area to see on the same day.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Billy D,

Sorry I made you have to use a sad face, but I am glad that I didn't disappoint you or surprise you with my response. Everybody expects the federal government to solve their problems, but that just cannot be done. There is no way to make everybody happy.

Alas, you guys complaining about the gas prices will receive a reprieve.

"Bush also issued a memorandum saying the hurricane had created a "severe energy supply interruption" and formally authorized a drawdown of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve. He said that the disruption had resulted in a severe increase in the price of oil products and that the price rise could damage the national economy." Quoted from a Yahoo article.

While cleaning up the kitchen and garage tonight, my parents have always said that Americans don't know what hard times are, and I think the rise in gas prices and Katrina pretty much prove that. My parents do not think that Americans are tough enough to make it through tough times, and they might actually be right. Don't get me wrong, my parents are diehard Americans, but they also know what it is like to live in tough times. Billy D, are you old enough to remember the Great Depression? I would think that the generation that lived through that might understand what hard times are like. I dated a girl once that had grandparents that lived through the Great Depression and even though they had a good amount of money, they saved everything that MIGHT be of use.

My parents are the same way as that girl's grandparents and I am always telling them to throw that crap out because the cost of storing it is more than the cost of buying it, but I guess I am only thinking of the here and now. What happens if you cannot buy that stuff anywhere. Then it becomes priceless.

Heck, I don't think I am as tough as my parents.

I guess it is a good thing we can still get gas. Otherwise, Danica would not be able to pursue her rise to fame. LOL

FABS

THE ONLY GAS YOU WILL FIND IN DANICAS CAR WILL BE IN HER INTESTINE AFTER SHE FINISHES HER LUNCHTIME BURRITO, WHICH I DOUBT SHE PARTAKES OF BEFORE RACING. SHES A SMART GIRL. FLATULENCE WHEN YOU ARE WEARING A NOMEX SUIT IS NOT AN EXPERIENCE YOU WOULD LIKE. BELIEVE ME. I HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE.

LAST TIME I CHECKED INDY CARS ONLY RUN ON METHANOL. MUCH SAFER?, DOESN'T HAVE NEARLY THE EXPLOSIVE EFFECTS OF GASOLINE IN CASE OF A CRASH. ALTHOUGH IT IS FLAMABLE. THATS WHY YOU SEE THE GUYS WITH A WATER HOSE WHEN THEY DISCONNECT THE FUEL HOSES DURING A FUEL STOP.

[fabsroman]

Billy,

As soon as I read the first sentence of your post, I knew I screwed up.

So, how much does methanol cost and is there any possibility mere mortals could use it?

Last I checked, methanol burned clean and essentially flameless. That is why a driver can be on fire and nobody else will even know it. Saw a CSI episode on it once too where a guy died from burning to death in an open wheel race car.

[BILLY D.]

shucks pardner, darned if i know how how much it costs. but i'll check it out.

when i was a youngin' and was into racing a gallon of nitromethane was $5.85. i suppose in todays money that would be about $25- $30 dollars a gallon.

but i'll look around and see what i find.

[fabsroman]

$25 to $30 a gallon wouldn't be any good unless we could get about 300 miles a gallon out of that stuff.

[BILLY D.]

well i did some research and sit here flabbergasted,no pun intended, at what i found out. the burn rates for nitromethane is something like 4 gallons per second, thats right 4 gallons per second, you don't need to wipe your eyes.

now that figure is for a race engine that is typically 8.9 liters and produces 6000hp. i know you are a ford fan and if you follow drag racing you know or have heard of john force. so if i figure correctly he uses approximately 16 gallons of nitro per quarter mile run.

i also found out nitro cost $27.39 per gallon. that was a good ewag on my part when i said $25-$30 dollars a gallon. whenever i want to figure out what something cost in the old days i simply multiply times five. works just about everytime.

also applicable is that both nitro and methanol are highly toxic and poisonous to the human body when not properly utilized. they also burn drier and require different oils for proper engine lubrication. it is my understanding that this is the reason synthetic oils became the hauteur for almost all of racing. methanol can be produced for about 40 cents a gallon but has less energy content than gasoline so therefore it takes more of it. one draw back of methanol is it is a byproduct of natural gas. well, now we know where this is going to go don't we? as soon as we start using alot the price will immediately jump and triple or quadruple as soon as there is demand. gee my profit margin isn't high enough, so sayeth the producer.

i can't even start to reproduce all i read about these fuels so i trust you can google them up.

as far as you and i utilizing methanol or nitro it could be a diminishing return. as far as nitro i think it would be a bust,too much enginge tuning.

for methanol the future is much better. there are already vehicles that use a 85 0/0 methanol 15 0/0 gasoline mixture.

the bad features of methanol are it is corrosive in fuel systems and there are starting problems in cold weather. that would be a treat up here when the temp hits -40 degrees. that is one good thing about ethanol gas we get here. it breaks down water content in the gas if there is any. but we north dakotans know how to take care of that problem should it arise.

also there are vehicles that can burn a 50-50 mixture of methanol gasoline. but they are highly modified from the factories.

well bud my good hand is killing me, so i got to get off this keyboard before i start cramping up.

have a good one.

[fabsroman]

Hey Billy, what happened to the caps?

Thanks for the info buddy. I am seriously looking at all my options for our next car. Luckily for me, we won't need a new one for some years to come, but I want to be prepared should the need arise unexpectedly (i.e., my Taurus has 133,000 on it and her Sonata has 73,000 on it).

I definitely want to get something that gets more than 30 mpg or runs on some fuel cheaper than gasoline, more efficient than gasoline, and/or more abundant than gasoline. Ford use to offer a motor in the Taurus that was a flex fuel motor. I don't know the specifics of it, but it was available when I bought my Taurus. Haven't seen it as an option on the new one though, but I will confess that I haven't looked that hard.

Right now, I am leaning toward the Escape hybrid that gets 40 mpg highway. Ideally, I would like a hybrid or flex fuel Explorer or Expedition, and I am hoping Ford gets that in the works soon so that the kinks can be worked out before I have to buy another car.

Who knows, maybe ethanol will be the fuel of choice later on or I might just have to go with pedal power and put some racks on my bike.