Bad timing

[myEspringr]

The other night Bosco turned and snipped my wife. I wasn't in the room , it was a bout 2:30 a.m. i came back to bed half asleep and when i got in there the better half was checkin' out her hand , then when when i looked at Bos' hunkered down on the floor I started to put two and two together. I spent the rest of the mornin' layin' in bed thinkin' dumbass dog ,huntin' season just started now what to do. Started thinkin' well maybe having him put down is about the only thing to do. Talk to my wife later that day after ponderin' all day, and feelin' like crap cause of the whole situation, told her what i was thinkin' and she didn't like the idea. She told me that she knows what he means to me.
My main concern is the kids, plus one on the way.Now my wife has never layed a hand on him so I'm @ a loss why he did this. She didn't even touch him when it happened. All she did was tell him to get down and when she reached to pat him he growled then snipped. He has growled @ her one other time and it was @ night while we sleepin' and it was just tellin' him the same thing. He'll be three yrs old in dec. and he's already gettin' this way well what happens as he gets older. I'm still thinkin' about doin' it and gettin' it over with. I've had other dogs but Bos' is the most loyal and it just seems to be that much tougher tryin' to decide. Everyone i've talked to has just said ride it out a little longer and see what happens. The only thing could come up with to do is have her give him more attention.
Thoughts?

[DogYeller]

You have a dominance problem, Springers are known for this. You might try the nothing in life is free approach and have your wife feed him, only after he has he has responded to her commands. If he sees the children as equals I think the problem will only get worse. I hate to see a dog put down because of something like this, see if you can find someone that knows how to handle the problem.

[fabsroman]

I agree with DogYeller. If it doesn't work out, you might want to think about giving the dog to somebody with a lot of property that will keep him outside where he will not have too much contact with humans other than during training and hunting (i.e., he won't be able to maul a child).

We had an English Springer when we were all young and that dog growled at my little sister once when she was a couple of years old, and I thought my dad was going to kill him. He stayed outside most of the, but this night he was inside under the table eating a bone from dinner. My baby sister went to pet him and he growled at her. My dad's answer was to lift the table up and beat the crap out of the dog. That dog bit my hand once, but I still believe to this day that it was an accident. He was trying to eat a crab shell and I went to take it out of his mouth. Well, it slipped out of my hand and he went to catch it as I was trying to catch it and my hand and his mouth met. He did growl at me one other time, and that was when he had a pheasant in his mouth and didn't want to let go. My dad hit him with a broom so hard that I thought the dog was surely dead.

That very same dog ended up biting quite a few people, but there were some explanations for it. One girl got bitten, but she stepped on him while he was sleeping. A friend of my brother got bit, but that was right after the lit a pipe bomb in the back yard and started running toward the dog. The bomb went off and the dog bit one of them. In the end, the dog was a bad dog probably because of the way my dad trained it (i.e., lack of training). I was too young back then to know any better.

TSadler had this problem with her dog and it seems as though she was able to solve the problem. Problem is that I haven't seen her on the board lately.

If I can think of anything else that is helpful, I'll post about it, but you should really check out the threads by TSadler.

[DogYeller]

Give this site a try.
http://www.vetinfo.com/daggressp.html

[myEspringr]

thanks , i'm lookin' into it.

[jonthedogman]

if so feel free to call me .that's what we do. we are a full time training kennel
we specialize in working with dogs that have severe aggression towards people or animals.
communication is the key.
you need to have a way to communicate. it's a dog, they can't write they can't talk and no one here is a mind reader.
obedience is the key to all training.

1 618 584 3163

my name is Jon naroditsky

[Lilred]

Only thing I got to add would be to welcome jon to the board...and also to disagree with 1 thing...obedience is not the key to all training. You can beat em, shock em, starve em, trick em and even cry like a baby at em...none of it does ya no good iffin the dog dont trust and respect ya.

well...you could beat, shock, starve and all that good stuff..the dog would mind. But only cause he had to..not cause he felt as though he should. Hence causin disrespect again sometimes causing the occasional bitin, snappin, non-listenin dog.

I agree trainin a dog is much easier when he is obedient...that's fer sure. But while a dog can be obedient..it's crucial that the dog be willin to hunt fer ya till his feet turn into lil nubs. That comes from good blood and a good heart. The rest will fall into place.
You caint read yer dog's mind...but there is nobody on this earth that will come as close as the owner can. That is the person that the dog has spent the most time with..and has bonded with. Owner and dog usually wind up workin out their own lil language so to speak. That is not to say obedience training from a trainer dont work...but IMHO..it aint werth a hill of beans if the owner is not constantly present and workin with the dog just as much er even more so than the trainer.

TSadlers dog was given to a trainer..the pup came back bitin growlin and so forth.I chalk it up to alot of things..it could have been that the dog was paired w/ another dog and was bullied. He could've got half beaten to death..(not likely) and/or..to put it plain..he had no respect fer his owner. Fer in truth, he didnt really know her all that well cause he was gone fer so long.

Springer, I see you talk of you and your dog alot..and it seems that none of the above applied. Treat your situation different than all others..think real hard as to what could have caused this..and try to fix it. Throwin parts at a broke-down vehicle aint likely to fix it unless you know what the problem is first.
Take into account Dog Yeller's advice about springers in general and see what you can make of it.
Then take it from there..but do not assume the dog will "grow out of it" er whatever. Hit the problen head on and take care of it...esp when there is kids involved.

[jonthedogman]

thanks lilred. I'm glad to be here. nice board and good topics.
I'm glad to see so many concerned people. and also a owner who is seeking advice.
I'm not shore what kind of problem this gentleman has with his dog. and in my opinion it is nearly imposable to evaluate it over e-mail. there cane be one hundred things that cause this behavior and genetics and shattered nerves can be one of them.
in any case every problem is solvable and any dog can be trained .
obedience is always key. the difference is .................
is the end result proficient enough for that individual household and are they willing to learn to properly handle and communicate with there dog.

and sir if I may I would like to disagree with you.
I feel that the owner most often has little knowledge on there dog.
if they knew there dog and understood there dog they would not be having this problem.
most dog owners lack savvy.
take care and thank you for the welcome.
dog man

[gspsonny03]

First off welcome to the forum Jon. Secondly Lilred is a Lady, not a sir, just to let you know that. and thirdly if it is at all possible, I think that I agree with both of you to a point. Lilred trains a ton of dogs mostly for her self and I agree that when the owner of the dog is nowhere around while the dog is going through O.T. that makes it hard on the dog on who the real master is, that's why almost every O.T. trainer that I know has the owner there most of the time if at all possible and is also trained at the same time the dog is. I also see Jon's side of it, because, and I'm not saying this to slight anyone, the owner has a tendency to overlook a lot of shortcomings in his dog. In other words he lets his dog get by with things that a Certified trainer never would and I speak from experience on this point. My dog will mind me, protect me and obey me, my wiife and my son, but if I have a family gathering at my house with fifteen or so people and they are there all day and they don't leave him alone, someone is going to get bit. Should I leave him in the kennel all day and ignore him? Probably, but he has had free rein of this house for four years and minds his manners when it's just me and the wife here. So anyway I can see both sides of the argument. I guess my point is if you are going to send your dog for O.T. you really need to go to class with him and learn your part of the training as well as his. Just my 02 cents worth.

[jonthedogman]

I would agree with you that the owner needs to be involved.
but involved in the beginning or the end would vary from how difficult the dog is and the experience and ability of the entire family that the dog lives with. (if it is a family dog)

I can't speak for other trainers. and there are allot that do more harm then good. not that this was the case with this dog but as lill red stated this dog came back from a training kennel with such problems. we offer classes, one on one private training and inhouse boarding/training. we also offer weekend private training for those who live out of town or out of country.
every dog is different and should be treated as a individual. as should there handlers. that is why we offer so many way for people to learn how to become dog savvy.
some dogs become worse with formal training (in the beginning stages and need to be worked extensively until problems are resolved.)
the more you work the dog the more faults you find.
trust and respect are very important but learning to except a correction is a must.
in order to have a dog respect you I feel you need to put him /her in many situations that they do not want to be in. this is why I say o-b is the key.
the problem the gentleman has with his Springer is a very common clasic problem with many Springer's and allot of field dogs these day from what I see here in the Midwest.
example would be................ to take a dog that has his basics and push him from there.
ask him to down and stay, sit and stay on surfaces that are uncomfortable(pudles, stairs, on top of another dog, vise versa)
99.9 % of the dogs that behave like this one does will show aggression to there handler. once the dog is fairly reprimanded and put in to control you can ask him to do the same exercise again. that is teaching a dog to except a correction. this will be the start of learning respect. trust will come into play shortly after that. once your dog respects you and has trust in you then and only then can you develop a bond.
I feel that in order to have the entire package you need all these elements.
once a dog responds to one handler the rest of the family can fallow.
any how I need to go run out of town for a few days talk to you guys later in the week.
dog man

[jonthedogman]

I'm not shore why I thought you were a sir. but mam ,I would like to offer you my apology
take care and nice talking to you.
jonthedogman:cool:

[Lilred]

No apologies are neccessary...as long as nobody confuses me with a man face-to-face..than nobody has to git their eyes blackened ;)

You have an interestin pov...and I can surely see where yer comin from. But I tell you what...iffin I had a dog that was extremely difficult to train...like tryin to teach a pitt bull never to bite nobody..then I just wouldnt have no dog like that. Very rarely, if ever, would you need to train a huntin dog to the extent of such strict training. This is a great "argument"...raises good questions in trainin..esp. in the world of huntin dogs.
How much is enough?
How much authority do you really need?
Alot..of course..but here's my idea..
you ever heared tell that you can git more bees w/ honey than you can w/ vinegar?
IMHO..makin a dog go totally against his grain is takin away the soul of the animal. Like..beagles that dont/wont/bred-plum-out-of-em hunt...teachin any hound to NOT hunt..makin him do things that totally takes away from the dog. Serves nary a bit of purpose. So to me...if you can accomplish such a feat as makin a dog sit on another is only somethin that you can say "Look what I can make this dog do."
If we are to be so in tune with the dog..what do think that dog would be thinkin. Probaly somethin like.."why the hell is he makin me do this?" It serves no purpose other than we can make this dog do this..and to the dog..he just does it cause he has to. Forced to. Yes, he listens. Cause...he is forced to.
I reckon I aint as hard on my dogs as most. I dont shock em..nothin like that. But them dogs hunt like fools..they live fer it. Never have they growled at me..much less snapped at me.
And they got the grace of Lee at Fredericksburg when they're runnin.
But when it comes to a dog that has serious issues..like bitin and whatnot..I caint fer the life of me figure out why bein harder on the dog over x amount of time would make it better. With the exception of quick correction at the time of the incident.
That's kinda like beatin a beagle fer runnin deer when he came home after runnin deer fer 3 hours. All he knows is he got the crap whacked outta him when he got home....

Touchin a lil on what Sonny says..a trainer would certainly catch more that the owner would when it comes to a dogs shortcomings and bad habits. Now, I dunno bout ya'll..but a trainer with a problem dog could easily see more and more bad points about the dog...and can only focus on that. Fix it, fix it, fix it. When there is nothin left to fix, then you have a robot.
If somebody sat me down and fixed all my shortcomins..then Lilred would no loger be Lilred..but just another thing that behaved perfectly. I aint sayin that all trainers are like that..dont take it that way. I reckon my point is..is that we put up with certain things from our kids, our spouses, our families and whatever that we dont particulary like..cause they are human. IMHO dogs should be given the same treatment..to a certain extent.
Not to the point where a snip or a bite should be fergivin tho.
Wonderful subject...

[myEspringr]

First of all i would like to thank everyone for there input. It helps to hear another perspective on this matter.
Bosco is a good dog and can usually tell what he is gonna do before he does it.i have been having my wife and kids spend more one on one time with him and he has been doin' pretty good. I can't see any reason to put him down i talked to my vet about neutering him. There is a possibility that it could help with the aggression. I could never send him to obediance because he does not take to strangers very well. He's extrmely protctive of my family, this i know i had a buddy stop by even though Bos' knows him i was not home .He would not let my buddy with in 5 foot of my wife.
He is good with the kids and their friends . I'm goona definatly keep a closer eye on him.
m.c.

[jonthedogman]

I understand what you are saying and I agree with you that you need to draw the line some place.
but this person wants to keep his dog from what he is saying. if that's the case certain things must be done.
I'm not shore how much formal training you seen and who was doing it. as I said before I can't comment on what others do.
but from your posts you seem to have the idea that in order to get a dog to do things against there will a great deel of force is needed. this is not what I was suggesting. yes dogs need to learn to take responsibility for there actions and to except a correction for misbehavior. and every misbehavior needs to have a consequence. but all this can be accomplished without e-collars, heavy corrections or just giving them the boot.
communication is very important.
how you get it will vary and imposable for me to explain over the puter.

don't forget this is a bird dog. he needs to hunt for you. as much as for himself. in the field this dog needs to take direction from the handler. and also to stop hunting when told. if you do not have such control outside the hunting environment then in it is even harder in the field
in my opinion much different than a hound who hunt for themselves. we only take advantage of natural ability with these dogs.

did you say you run beagle dogs??????????
can you shoot me a e-mail???
I need some advice.
thanks in advance
dogman

[jonthedogman]

glad things are working out. havening the wife spend time with the dog is a good call.
the more she does with the dog the better off you guys will be.
make observations often.
unless you walk on egg shells these problems will often (not allways)escalate if not solved.
good luck to you on whatever you decide to do.
dogman