We are less than 5% of the muzzleloader hunters?

[Adam Helmer]

In the October 2005 issue of "Outdoor Life" on page 78, Ralph Lermayer has an article, "A Fab Five of Muzzleloaders" where he describes five in-line arms. His lead paragraph says,"Before 1985, nearly all muzzleloader hunters carried traditional sidelock guns. Today, more than 95% of them pack in-lines."

I would like to see Mr. Lermayer's footnote on that "more than 95%" figure and have sent him an email requesting same. Here in PA in the October ML season "any Muzzleloader" is legal, but after Christmas until mid-January it is "Flintlocks Only."

At our club, I would say that in-lines make up 50-60% of the muzzleloaders on the firing line. Do we really make up less than 5% of the muzzleloader hunters?

Adam

[Jack]

I gotta wonder about that 95% figure. Just doing an eyeball survey of what I see in the woods during NY's muzzle loader season..... well, let's say I'm highly sceptical of that number.

[kt]

i think it would be fair to say a much larger number own and shoot a flinter from time to time. but yes here in PA it would be likely more flinters are around. I love being in the january woods with only 5% of the others!
kt

[Gil Martin]

I once heard a fellow comment on surveys and polls and he said,.. "if they did not ask me, it is not a valid poll". Not sure where Ralph did his survey. I would agree that in-lines have made deep inroads into the traditional muzzleloading ranks, but we that retained our sidelocks are certainly more than 5 percent. All the best...
Gil

[quigleysharps4570]

Take a poll here and see what it's like...just out of curiosity. :)

[skeet]

I can tell you that here on the Eastern Shore of Maryland that the vast majority of frontstuffers use inlinesd. I sell the darn things. In the last 5 yrs I have sold exactly 5 sidelock guns...and only 1 was new...the others were trade ins. In opposition I sold 23 Savage(just the one brand mind you) 10ML guns last year alone. The muzzleloading fraternity here is almost all comprised of hunters.... and the inlines are much better hunting arms...maybe I should say more reliable. It's like archery... Now we have people getting into the crossbow thing. They mostly learn very quickly that they are still shooting a bow. No real added range...just easier to aim. But for hunting the inlines have it all over the sidelocks in reliability and ease of use with scopes etc as well as the pellet thingies and 209 primers
Maryland is kind of overrun with deer and the DNR here wants to make it as easy as possible for the everyday Joe to be able to get his deer...if he can find a place to hunt:)

[Adam Helmer]

Guys,

Great responses. I wonder if a poll on the "Traditional Muzzleloader" site would be fair and representative. I will say that most of the inline users I see are younger folks. Us older guys are sidelock users to a larger extent.

I have not heard back from Mr Lemayer about his "statistic" and how he arrived at his numbers. Stay tuned.

Adam

[quigleysharps4570]

Originally posted by skeet
But for hunting the inlines have it all over the sidelocks in reliability and ease of use with scopes etc as well as the pellet thingies and 209 primers

Reliability...I must be an odd duck...my sidelock has always went off. Matter of fact...it set over a week loaded and through 2 rain days in the field this season. Went off like it was supposed to. Ease of use...they gotta dump powder and ball down the barrel just like I do. Probably even get a percussion cap on quicker than them. On another note...clean-up. Pretty quick with hot soapy water and don't have to try different solutions to scrub plastic out of a barrel. Believe I'll stick with the ole trusty sidelock.

[kt]

adam, you could always put the poll in the anything goes section, you have MODERATOR Power!
just makes sure there is a section for me that says "I enjoy both inlines and flinters" (check this box)
kt

[skeet]

QS 4570... Just seems as though you are just a stick in the mud ol fuddy duddy. :D :D . Actually I like my ol Hawken a lot and have shot a few deer with it. Left it loaded(no cap) for over a month once...fired right on time.

The new Savage though is a real easy one to use... clean it every 100 shots or so. I really do hate cleaning the Hawken. I also have an original Pennsylvania rifle that was given to me. I shoot it occasionally..just to keep it going. It was originally a flinter that was changed over to caplock a long time ago. It is a bear to clean cause ya have to get the stock off which ain't easy.

It just seems as though the ease of use and familiar configuration is an incentive to get new and younger shooters into the game...Yep....except for a few diehards, at this time the flinter and sidelock guns are effectively a thing of the past...again!!

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I read recently that Pennsylvania Rifles should not be taken apart for cleaning because many are pinned and stock removal causes excess wear. I would be real careful with a genuine antique as your gun surely is. Hope this helps.

Adam

[Deerman]

I like my sidelock but hunt with some inliners.To each his own.

[12ga]

Skeet, this is not intended in any way to be any sort of critism, it is just a couple of questions about marketing practices and sales strategies.

In many years of observation as a gun shop customer I have to be honest and say most gun dealers have little or no marketing plan.

I understand you sold five sidelocks, four being trade-ins and one was a new gun. My two questions are about how many sidelocks did you stock, new or used, and how many of those stocked traditional guns failed to sell?

If you sold all the sidelocks that came into the shop, that's a 100% sales record for a niche market product. If I were in the gun sales racket in that market, I'd have jumped on that market like a duck on a grasshopper.

Thanks,

12 Ga.

[skeet]

As far as a marketing strategy..well I have one..Very simple in fact. You learn over a period of time what sells and what doesn't. Don't sell what doesn't move. I know that sounds simplistic but all retailers use that one.. I also use another... I try to sell items that will be a coming thing...such as the Savage Muzzle loader. People don't for the most part want to have to work at their favorite sport...muzzleloaders included. Cleaning is a chore to most... Not necessarily bad but just a tedious task. Quite honestly I have sold 17 of the Savage smokeless muzzloaders so far this year(since July). Surprisingly 12 of the people who bought the Savage guns are first time muzzleloaders. I stress the fact that they can use Black, Pyrodex,Triple 7 and smokeless in these guns. Most have bought triple seven to use in them.??? I really don't know why but they do. But I think the fact that they can use anything in the gun is a deciding factor as well as the familiarity of the bolt action type gun. Another factor is all weather useability. We have a fair amount of rain and bad weather during the winter so people like the closed action 209 primers etc. Yes with the right marketing strategy...you can almost sell anything..but going with the flow surely makes it easier. Another factor in the whole mess is the unsteady availability of black powder here in Md. The Peoples Republic doesn't want people to have an explosive ya know.

Now...I happen to have a Lyman 50 cal Flinter A 50 cal Hawken (TC) and a pretty little TC Seneca 45 cal with an extra 36 cal bbl. All are as new but used...gotta try to sell them just to be rid of them...Flinter I've had for 4 yrs!!! And I'm not going to give them away.

The Pennsylvania rifle is pinned to the stock..and it is a bear to get off. But it seems to have been designed to remove. Surprisingly that little rifle is really long...but so well balanced it is a dream to shoot....and a nightmare to clean

[skeet]

As an aside from the foregoing post... Shooters are really traditionalist for the most part. Most like steel and wood in their guns.. Plastic stocks are starting to sell pretty well but so many people coming into the muzzleloading sport are coming in because of the increased chances for hunting. Many are newer frontstuffers as i said and they will buy what is most familiar to them. I refuse to try to sell things to people that they don't need or anything that will not suit them in the long run. It doesn't pay to try to force things on people...espcially things that won't make them happy. The US automakers did that back in the 60's and 70's and the Foreign makers made inroads on the American market that seem to be widening even today. Of course I market things in a traditional sense with loss leaders etc..but those are things to get people to come into the shop. Happy people come back:cool: Unhappy people are gone:(

[Adam Helmer]

An update:

On page 12 of the December/January 2006 issue of "Outdoor Life," my letter to the Editor appears and there is a reply from Mr. Lermayer regarding his "more than 95% of muzzleloader hunters pack in-lines", as stated in his October 2005 article.

Mr. Lermayer says, "That figure is based on sales over the last 10 years. Most of the major manufacturers have discontinued sidelocks completely or are making only a token few."

Well, let us review: Guns will last a lifetime and many traditional sidelocks are on establishment across the nation. In the PA Traditional ML season after Christmas, ONLY flintlocks are legal and PA sells 130,000+ ML licenses a year. To look ONLY at sales over the last 10 years gives a skewed view of the ratio of MLs afield. Also, I see many new Thompson Center, Lyman and other major manufacturers' traditional ML arms on the racks of my local gun shop. I suspect the arms on the racks are the "token few" Mr. Lermayer has in mind. Whatever.

Adam

[skeet]

Hi Adam...and everyone else.

The State of Pa is somewhat of a throwback. Of course there are more sidelock guns there. They require flinters in the traditional season...so what are the retailers gonna sell.... sidelock flinters.. But tell ya what. Go to most any other state and you will hardly see any flinters for sale and very few sidelock guns. As I said..I enjoy the sidelocks..but am going to shoot a Savage with smokeless myself. Hate to clean the darn things for certain. And I am after all just enjoying more time hunting. I am now up to 28 Savage guns since July and if I could get them in a hurry..probably 2 more. I don't miss cleaning them but I really did like hunting with the Hawken. It was easy to carry and no scopes to worry about..but I'll use the Savage. Not even 1 customer asked for a sidelock gun...and I make it known I have them available. They all want inlines such as Knights Remingtons etc. Oh and by the way...I do not sell any of the cheap Wally world specials. Most are junk...and some are dangerous..in my opinion of course!

[wrenchman]

I hunted with my side lock today t.c new englander it was a cold
morn.
I have yet to sight in my in line.
I was wondering also of the guys useing side locks how many are youseing patch balls and black powder it is what i run threw mine.

[popplecop]

I'm so old, I thought in line was talking about gas engines. I have shot black powder muzzle loading rifles and cartridge rifles for about 50 years. Have not tried those new rifles yet, probably will not, was tempted by a TC Encore a little. I have to say I do not have any problems with the rifles I have now including flinters. Guess I'm too old to change. Around here we have probably 30 to 40% shooting traditional. Have even seen some give up the inlines just as some archers are returning to straight and recurve bows.

[skeet]

As Popplecop said..he is old and kinda stuck in his ways. BTW I also know what a straight 8 is....an inline. The people that have bought the sidelock guns from me in the last few years are also the older guys. Being out there means more than killing it. ...But the ol guys like us aren't the ones buying the new guns or shooting them either. Heck guys...I thought when Winchester stopped making the real Model 70 in 1963 they quit making guns. We may have a resurgence of sidelocks...like we did with blackpowder shooting itself...but not for a while. I think there is also another smokeless powder inline muzzleloader coming out in the next year. oh well...:confused:

[Lilred]

I aint never had an inline..and dont see nary a reason to change now. Hubby bought one last year...swears he'll never hunt with it again..lol

People round here aint really into fancy guns..and alot just hunt w/ sidelocks and such...either that er they're too poor. Which is fine by me..aint nuthin wrong with bein simple last I heared. ;)

[rattus58]

Adam ... :)

There is no question about the popularity of the inline over the traditional offerings, and I'd be completely surprised if traditional offerings today even met the 5% volume in new sales overall from year to year.

But, from an ownership standpoint, I think I would agree that many of us that own inlines also own flintlocks, caplocks, underhammers and the like. Many of us also own replica civil war muskets, just because, and I'm certain that that number probably does exceed that 5% number by some larger margin.

Aloha.. :cool:

[quigleysharps4570]

In July I actually held one...that image still haunts me. :) Wasn't by choice...a friend of mine was showing me his cartridge rifles. I was holding one when he handed me another. Turns out to be an in-line. :eek: Of course I let him know that was a first. :) Guess I gotta be more careful in the future.

[Adam Helmer]

quigleysharps45/70,


ALL is forgiven. As a Lay Minister conducting services twice a month, I assure you that "All is forgiven" now and for always. If you need a redo, feel free to come to Trinity Episcopal Church in Antrim, PA on January 15, 2006 and I will give you "remission of sins" per the Book of Common Prayer.

Adam

[quigleysharps4570]

Thank you Adam. ;)

[larryours]

Here in West Virginia, everyone used to use flintlock and percussion sidelocks, until our Legislators in their wisedom, changed the law to allow in-linemuzzleloaders, with scopes. I reckon our "primitive " season got modern.
West Virginia doesn't have a "primitive" just a muzzleloader season. The hunting challenge has been taken away, and subsituted with the killing challenge. In other words its like having a Model-T Ford and a Stock car racing, I reckon its still qualifies as a "Car Race"?????

I have never/nor will I ever own an In-line Muzzlerloader.

I'd rather tape a wooden dowel underneath my .308 single shot rifle and hunt during the regular deer season, and if I killed a deer take a picture and say "Yes, I killed it with a modern muzzleloader, the only difference is, I didn't shove the .308 shell down the muzzle.

I congradulate Pa. for their primitive season.

I saw a hunting video where a hunter was bragging on his "Primitive" deer kill in Canada with a muzzlerloader, saying I killed this deer with a primitive muzzleloader ,and when the tape panned around to show the weapon, you guessed it. A synthetic black stock, stainless steel in-line muzzler loader, with a large scope. Something just does't seem right !!!!!

[Adam Helmer]

larryours,

Yes, I hear you. Here in PA they changed the law two years ago and allowed "Any Muzzleloader" for deer in the October deer season and the Game Commission NEVER asked the 130,000 current traditional muzzleloader hunters if a change to include inlines was needed! I would have told PGC that inlines belong in the two-week RIFLE deer season.

Our Primitive (Flintlock) deer season begins the day after Christmas. All hunters will carry flinters. The squewed numbers of "recent ML gun sales" to prove we are less than 5% discounts the many thousands of traditional MLs owned and carried every year afield. I own many traditional arms, but no inlines.

Adam

[skeet]

Was talking with a few of the boys up in Pa today. Most are just happy to be able to get another season for deer under their belts. I salute the guys of the present who use the flinters as well as the ones of the past who settled this great country and fed their families with the "flintlock guns". Just in case y'all think I was disparaging the sidelock guns...I wasn't. I am glad that the tradition is carried forward. Luck to y'all in the primitive season up in Pa and wherever the tradition is carried forward by the real "Longhunters".

[Skyline]

Personally I don't know what all the hype is about. I don't care whether a guy is packing a flint lock, percussion, or a new in-line. It isn't going to affect my personal hunt during muzzleloader season. I know what I can do with the gear I am carying and any deer beyond that is going to be safe.

The new in-lines do not stretch things as far as the media has everyone believing and I have seen few that can print a decent enough group past 150 yards to be much of a threat to a deer.
Yes there are a few who can stretch the distance......but about as many muzzleloader hunters are capable of that kind of shooting as conventional rifle hunters are capable of shooting consistantly past 200 yards in the field......not too damn many!

As long as they are hunting with something that requires they stuff powder and a bullet down the barrel, cock a hammer and slip on a cap..... that fits fine with me in a muzzleloader season.

What a person uses is an individual preference. If I decide to hunt with an iron sighted .30-30 lever action during rifle season, that is my choice, but I will not snivel at my neighbour who is shooting a .30-.378 Weatherby with a 4-12 varible on it and can wack a deer quite handily at 400 or 500 yards across a field. The .30-30 hunter may have to rely more on stealth than the .30-.378 user....but routinely being able to hit game at long distance has its own set of skills attached to it.

As for the scope thing. Well I can still do fine with iron sights, but my Dad sure as heck couldn't and if he couldn't use a scope on a muzzleloader, that would severely limit his opportunities.....penalized due to age.

This is the kind of thing I wish guys would lighten up on. During archery season guys shooting traditional stick bows frown upon someone using a new fangled high tech compound and god forbid a crossbow! Even though crossbows have as limited a range as regular archery equipment.

I have guided traditional archers for caribou......they had trouble connecting at 15 yards most of the time. Is it somehow unfair if the next guy had a compound and was capable of connecting at 50 yards......still throwing a stick isn't it?

Last fall I had a chap miss a big bull moose 4 times at 120 yards with his .300 WSM. That new fad cartridge didn't do him any good. I know guys with flint locks that could have hammered that bull each and every time.

Hey, if you are a rabid flint lock user....great. But does it really matter if a newbie into muzzleloaders opts for the in-line? Does it severly affect your chances of bringing home venison? No. In a regular muzzleloader season you decide how you want to hunt and you put your own personal limitations on what you do and how you do it.

Our sport has enough problems without hunters getting so steamed up at other hunters choices.

Hey, just my opinion............no doubt many will disagree.;)

[quigleysharps4570]

Scoped in-lines...well...any in-line... have no place in a traditional muzzleloader season...might as well use a cartridge gun if you're gonna carry one that looks like it. IMO

[larryours]

I don't have anything against anyone that hunts, but don't hunt with a stainless steel in-line, scoped, with synthetic stock and brag that you killed it with a "primitive" muzzleloader. Just say I killed it with an in-line.

In other words, don't pee up my back and try and tell me it's raining. Just hunt in regular deer rifle season, or if you live in W.V. muzzleloader season.

I love to hunt probably as much/or more as anyone, when I was younger, I wasn't hunting unless I killed something. As you get older, you yungun's will understand what I'm talking about. I love to be outdoors, and if I see game where I could kill, but pass up, and take an animal now and again for the meat that I love to eat, I give thanks to the Good Lord for what he provides and the time he allows me to have in the outdoors. Just be happy to be alive and to hunt.........

[Skyline]

Sorry, your reasoning about this 'traditional' versus 'in-line' is not logical.

Stainless steel, synthetic stock, scopes.....who cares.

So somehow the bullet coming out of a stainless barrel, pushed by a 100 grains of pyrodex is not ethical because the barrel isn't blued steel and the handle on it isn't birdseye maple?

that is a load of BS my friends!

As I said before.....it is the same arguement that I hear from archers........somehow traditional long bows are OK, but if you use a compound bow that isn't 'pure' enough for the people with the stick bows......maybe we should start having long bow seasons and then a compound bow season. That way we wouldn't have those nasty compound users out competing with the long bows.

I won't say another word on this subject but it is bunk and your reasoning is strictly bias. There is no logic to the position some of you guys are taking other than "we don't like it!"

["yote"]

We may be less than 5% but we have the most fun !!!!

Lyman great Plains .54 cal round ball shooter !!!

[Adam Helmer]

Skyline,

You may think the difference between traditional and inlines, as larryours pointed out, is "illogical" and you are entitled to your opinion, so long as you know it is merely your opinion.

Here in PA, it is LAW that the only legal "Traditional arm" for deer season from December 26, 2005 until mid-January is a Flintlock, single barrel, .44 caliber or larger bore, iron sights only. Apparently the PA Game Commission sees a difference between a scoped inline that looks like a Remington 700 bolt gun and a flintlock with iron sights. You have every right to think it is a "load of BS" if some people ascertain a difference between the two arms. That is not the point of my original post. I am saying traditional arms are more than "5% "of the hunters afield.

I maintain that scoped inlines belong in our two-week rifle deer season along with other scoped rifles. If you do not think traditional arms are fairer to the deer resource, in the traditional season, due to the limitations they have, then you are free to have your opinion. I have fired inlines with scopes and they are much more deadly than an iron-sighted .50 caliber Hawken flinter. If you deem that is "strictly bias" on my part, please come with me to my range and be convinced of facts. Perhaps none are so blind as those who will not see. I do not hate inlines, I am saying the Traditional Season has traditions, AND limitations, modern scoped muzzleloaders negate. Merry Christmas.

Adam

[carl]

I have to agree with Adam and larryours.I have an inline and a "traditional". Here in Ohio I can use them in Deer gun season and Primitive season. Regular Gun season is a week long and this year muzzleloader is 4 days. I would love to see them open a "Flintlock only" for a few days. THERE is a BIG difference in bagging a deer with an inline vs a traditional.
Merry Christmas !!!!!!!!

[Skyline]

And in a strictly 'traditional arm' season....fair enough. In PA yes you have that special season but they are rare elsewhere. The majority of locations are 'muzzleloader' seasons.

I still hear all the complaining in those 'muzzleloader' seasons by the traditional users that scopes and in-lines shouldn't be allowed.

My point is...just be carefully how loudly you decry others and what they use during the various seasons.

I have shot 'traditional' blackpowder muzzleloaders for many years and I have shot some of the in-lines in more recent years.
Yes, equipped with a scope, they do extend your killing range. But many who are not familiar with them seem to think they are 200 yard plus killers....rarely! Most hunters soon come to realize that they are still, at best, a 100 to 150 yard weapon.....and as I said, I know guys that are really proficient with flintlocks that routinely turn in good groups at 100 yards.....because they practice and really know their rifle. They also don't own $100 do it yourself kit rifles....they are well made weapons.

There are many sides to this arguement. Bottom line is when I go out in the woods during a muzzleloader season, and I am packing a flintlock, I could care less if the next guy has an in-line. I will still get my deer and if he/she using an in-line helps to get more people interested I am all for it. With time, they may develop an interest in the more 'traditional' weapons.

I just get very tired of hunters, who should be sticking together like flies to you know what.....spend so much time bashing each other because of personal beliefs about whether bears should be hunted in spring, trophy hunting is bad, compound bows are too advanced and, oh yes of course, in-lines place traditional muzzleloader hunters at such a terrific disadvantage.

Nothing like being your own worst enemies in a day and age when everyone is out to take your hunting and shooting rights away.

And your right it is only my opinion....................

[Adam Helmer]

Skyline,

Thanks for your reply. Maybe things are a bit different here in PA; for example, the crossbow folks must buy a Muzzleloader license and may only hunt the ML season.

Today was the opener for the PA "Primitive ML" season. I hunted all morning in a light rain with a flinter .54 Hawken. I came home at noon and dumped my wet priming. Now, Mr. Skyline, if I had used an inline with 209 priming, just what would rain or sleet have meant to my hunt? If you can see that the elements have an effect on "Primitive Hunters" not visited to inline hunters, then you are on your way to wisdom. Be well.

Adam

[Skyline]

Nothing miraculous about that Adam.....hazards of the design and circumstance. As I said I began using traditional muzzleloaders decades ago.......I have also seen in-line actions fill with water in torrential downpours during hunts in the NWT, despite covering the actions, and then refusing to fire at the end of the day, with 209 ignition. I have seen bolt-actions and lever-actions freeze-up in -30 and -50 F. usually because the owners neglected proper cold weather maintenance....another because a horses body temperature made a 'cold' rifle sweat in a scabbard and then freeze as it cooled.

Have had a wet pan on a flinter a time or two myself hunting in the pouring rain in British Columbia for blacktail deer.....and that is just the way it goes sometimes....................... that's hunting. Has nothing to do with wisdom or the point I am trying to make.

Ah well, this is kind of like beating your head against the wall, it feels good when you stop. Take care all......oh and keep your powder dry!

[quigleysharps4570]

Originally posted by Skyline
I won't say another word on this subject

:)

[larryours]

Skyline, Nobody is talking about ethical, just traditional.
As long as you take an animal quick, without suffering,thats ethical, it doesn't matter what weapon you use.
Traditional hunting, is what I prefer. Sidelock of flintlock

Tradition/ Traditional defined: "handing down of opinions, practices from generation to generation; custom"

So if you keep your opinion and in-line, in a 100 years or so, after a few generations, your in-line will be traditional.

Enough said ! Skyline have a Happy New Year

[fouserchris]

Hey all of you are forgeting something .especially the peaple downing inlines . i have 2 side hammers 1 inline 1 of the side hammers is flintlock with sinthotic stock .i got my percussion 1st. my inline 2nd and my flint last .in ohio where i am i can use any of the above during any firearm season . i have even been known to use the flint during shotgun season .if inlines get youngsters into the field during deerseason then more power to the inline. i choose which weapon i am most comfortable with where i am hunting .150 yrd shot i use inline. drives i use percution .stand and still hunting i use flint.I dont really think it matters what you use as long as you can make it hit the target and are enjoying the hunting and shooting experiance .i can out shoot most of my inline only friends with all three guns their choice on gun my choice on range.i will still use all 3 frontstuffers until somebody prys them from my cold dead hands or i cant see to aim .