"Burnt" barrels and the .17Rem?

[model 70]

Is it possible to shoot out the barrel of a .17rem like you could on a .220swift or .22-250?

[Lone Star]

It most certainly is. You can shoot out the throat of about any high pressure rifle if you allow the barrel to get too hot. I shot out the throat of a 6mm Remington in one hot afternoon by not allowing the barrel to cool down between groups. It looked like a dry lakebed, nasty. You are funneling a lot of powder down a small hole with the .177" bore.

[model 70]

do the .17rem and the .223rem share the same case capacity? i hear you can't shoot out the barrel of a .223 like that.

[Catfish]

The .223 has a case cap. of 28.12 gr`s of H20 and the .17 Rem. of 27.23 gr`s. of H20. You can`t form .17 Rem . cases from .223 brass though as they will be to short, they must be formed from .222 mag cases if you want to form your own.
Also you can definately burn out a .17 cal. barrel. Most barrels are burned out because someone shot to many round in to short a time and got the barrel to hot.

[Rocky Raab]

The alternate theory is that the barrel isn't burned out but fouled in.

The 17 Remmy can be a real copper fouler, especially in early barrels. A really serious cleaning session with a good copper solvent might be the only thing that barrel needs.

[Stonewall]

Originally posted by model 70
Is it possible to shoot out the barrel of a .17rem like you could on a .220swift or .22-250?

I saw a Sako 17Rem once with so much fouling in the throat area that it looked like it was shot out .You literally could not see the top of the lands .It ate the only two brushes I had in a few strokes each and as I was bedding this only I gave the barrel back in the same condition as received.Of course it still didn't shoot after bedding as this was not the problem .I believe most barrels in 17 cal are not shot out but fouled and given a lot of time and cleaning material will shoot well .The example above was after 200 rounds shooting gophers with no cleaning .

[Rocky Raab]

Welcome to Hunt Chat, Stonewall.

Great answer. I suspect you are a gunsmith or often work on guns. You'll be most welcome indeed in our Gunsmithing forum - and everywhere else here!

[Catfish]

Stonewall,
Welcome aboard. I think your right on with your view of the problem. I once ruined a .17 cal. barrel with molly coated bullets. I did salavge the barrel by fire lapping it, no amount of cleaning with bruches or JB`s would get it clean. I figured the barrel was ruined anyway and I was going to have to rebarrel it so what the heck. But I did get it back shoot ing abt. 3/4 moa.

[redjonson]

The 17 Rem has a reputation for copper fouling the barrel. I wonder why the 17 cal barrel should foul more than any other barrel...Is it because of the high velocity? Other calibers have as much or more velocity. Is it because the fit of the bullet to the barrel is somehow tighter than other calibers? Is it because the powder charge turns a certain amount of the copper jacket to a copper vapor (plasma) that is deposited further down the barrel as it cools? A lot of "over bore" cartridges generate the same or higher temperatures and pressures. Of the shooters of the 17 Rem that I know, there are only two types....They love it or they hate it...The particular 17 Rem 700 BDL that I have is an early production model and it is a shooter. It will shoot factory 25 gr loads accurately and will shoot 30 gr Berger handloads at 3725 FPS very accurately...I shoot 30 or 40 rounds before I clean it and the patches have very little blue...I'd be interested to hear the experiences of others shooting all types of Factory and custom rifles and barrels in 17 Rem. Things like accuracy, range, velocity, copper fouling, rounds fired per year and total rounds fired....Red

[Contenderizer]

Over the years many sub-cal rifles have suffered from "barrel build-up" which is problematic for accuracy. As Rocky suggested - clean the heck out of it!

[Rocky Raab]

Early .17 rifles are more prone to it that current models. The reason is simple: they learned how to make .17-cal barrels better.

It is (I believe) a matter of proportion. A pit, mark or bump of microscopic proportions that wouldn't cause a hint of a problem in a .30-cal bore is -proportionally- a huge hole, scrape or jagged mound in a .17-cal. So that tiny bullet (with its equally thin jacket!) simply cannot be fired over such a defect and not lose copper.

They've also learned to make those eensy bullets better. Combined, today's MUCH better, smoother barrels and better bullets add up to a lot less fouling problems than before.

But you can still burn one out. Shoot it too quickly, too long on too hot a day and...bye bye barrel.

[Jack]

Many long years ago, I had a 17-223 wildcat- long before Remington made it a factory round. Back in those Olden Days, finding as simple a thing as a 17 caliber cleaning rod was near impossible, and a 17 caliber bore brush? Forget it!
Heck, it was a huge advance for 17 shooters when Hornady came out with a 17 caliber bullet.
It should be remembered, too, that bore cleaning fluids have come a long way, too. In Thee Olden Days, Hoppe's #9 was the standard bore cleaner. Smells nice, works ok on powder fouling, but old #9 isn't much for cleaning copper fouling.
Combine those factors with the 'newness' of the 17 caliber bore, and barrel makers just learning how to make 17 caliber barrels (and those barrels were rather rough) , and you have a guaranteed fouling machine.
The 17 had a well deserved reputation in those days for being a vicious barrel fouler, for all of those reasons.
I started out cleaning mine with a long piece of brazing rod, shoving wet patches down the bore, because no one made a 17 caliber cleaning rod.
BTW, you surely can burn out a 17 caliber bore, just as easily as any other cartridge where you are putting a lot of powder down a relatively small bore- whether it's a 17,22, or 25, makes no difference at all.
17's are much better today, but I'm sure some of their reputation lingers from the first wave of 17 caliber rifles, and the difficulty of cleaning them.

[scalerman]

This may not be the place for this question but there seems to be alot of discussion of this issue on this thread so I am going to ask it anyway. Based on what I hear you guys saying is it true that with care not to heat the barrel up too much that shooting out a barrel will take a long time or is there a certain point where this barrel is shot out regardless of how carefully it has been cared for? I ask this question because I have my dad's rifle- it is at least 40 years old- it used to put two bullets practically in the same hole, now not so much. My brother had it for a number of years and he said that it was getting progressively worse as far as accuracy was concerned. He says it is shot out. I have fired it and yes the accuracy is not what it once was but I am certain that he did not shoot as much as dad did years ago. I am hearing in this discussion here that there may yet be some hope for this rifle if I were to give the barrel a good cleaning to get out the copper fouling. Forgive this stupid question- How the h@ck do you do that?

[Jack]

Scalerman, not knowing the caliber, how many rounds the rifle has fired- and how rapidly those rounds were fired- it's hard to say if the barrel's burned out.
Any time you suspect a barrel is burnt out, a good bore cleaning is called for, as many 'burnt out' bores are just badly fouled.
There are as many cleaning regimens as there are shooters, so you'll get lots of answers.
But, the basics are:
1) start with a powder solvent to remove loose powder fouling. Like Hoppe #9, Kroil ( a penetrating oil), or a million other bore cleaning products labeled as powder solvents.
2) Then go to a copper solvent. Butch's Bore Shine, Montana Extreme, Shooters Choice, Barnes CR 10, Wipe Out bore foam are names of several popular ones that dissolve copper.
Patches will usually show a blue color if the bore cleaner is dissolving copper.
You can also use an abrasive type cleaner such as JB. ( it will not harm the barrel steel) JB coated patches are worked back and forth thru the bore, and will come out black, not blue.
Many people use a bore brush between periods of using copper solvent or powder solvent, some people don't.
I would strongly suggest a bore guide to avoid scratching up the barrel throat while you clean, and a quality one piece cleaning rod. (you'll get lots of opinions on the best equipment, too)
For whatever it's worth, I use a mix of Kroil and Shooters Choice as a powder solvent, and Butch's Bore Shine to remove copper. I also use JB on severely fouled bores. I use a bore guide every time, I use bronze brushes, and I use them often. All my cleaning rods are Dewey one piece, plastic coated rods.
There's the basic info that should get you started.

[longdistanceoperator]

many of the problems associated with this caliber are has beens... as long as proper barrel maintance is done, you should have ZERO PROBLEMS...period.

Todays powders are much cleaner burning than they were 25 years ago... todays bullet jackets are much more uniform and strong than they were 25 years ago when the caliber showed these problems... today, if you PROPERLY CLEAN THAT 17 YOU WILL HAVE ZERO PROBLEMS... im shooting one that has over 6000 rounds thru it.. its been cared for properly for over 15 years... and it still shoots bug holes at 150 yards