when is it "ok"?

[model 70]

home protection or otherwise. i've been racking this over in my brain alot lately. not sure why. when is it ok to pull the trigger? do they have to flash the gun? maybe a knife? not only do i fear the leagl issue but to me and most others, this is a BIG deal. you're quite possibley taking another persons life. i mean, i'm sure alot of home invasions, attacks and self defense shootings could be solved other ways since the attacker doesn't always have a gun. then again, if you wait to see a weapon it could be too late and i'll be damned if i'm gonna go out in my own home with a gun in my posession without taking a shot or two. what are your thoughts?

[TreeDoc]

As Masaad Ayoob wrote..."In the Gravest Extreme"

You're a Californian, it can make a difference State to State. It is a complicated issue but I'll give you my best uncomplicated answer that might work in general terms. You may use lethal force anytime that you feel "your life" is threatened and you have exhausted your ability to remove yourself from the situation. If a 5'6" 105 pound boney swimsuit model clad in a thong bikini comes at you with her bare hands threatening to kill you, it's not likely that lethal force would be a reasonable defense. Now that I think about it, it might be sort of fun wrastlin' with her! On the other side of the coin, if Dredrick, a 260# heavyweight boxer type has you cornered and is threatening to kill you, you think he'll make good on his offer and you're a meager 6'0, 160# computer nerd from HuntChat with no way out, you could likely drill him with a double tap and have a reasonable defense. My examples are extreme simply to point out what is or isn't a threat.

A threat by a weapon is a different story and perhaps a bit more cut and dry but that depends on many variables still. Regardless of how justified, in this day and age you will likely be tried for your "crime" so a good Criminal Defense Attorney is paramount.

[petey]

My wife and I just had this discussion, and luckily my brother-in-law is a State Cop so he could give us a better understanding.

I pretty much said, if a person is in my house without reason to be (meaning he's broken in) then I'm shooting. Not neccessarily to kill mind you.

My wife said no way, he'll take you to court, and end up taking everything we own just b/c that's how great the judicial system works around these parts.

So my brother-in-law's answer was as long as the intruder is placing you in a threatening situation (maybe life threatening). Not sure of the exact wording since it was my wife talking to him and her relaying the message to me.

Basically I got it as, as long as they had a weapon and where threatening you or your family shoot them. And his response to where to shoot them?? Right in the ol goodie box as to make sure they never reproduce again :D

Either way, I wouldn't be letting an intruder (armed or not) leave my house once he's in.

[Andy L]

The way I understand it, in MO, if you are in fear of your life or someone elses life.

If its in your own home, there is even less qualification. If someone is in your home unwanted and refuses to leave, its going to be hard to prove that you were not protecting yourself and/or family.

I was also told by one of the attnys I work for what to say and do. Since there is always a chance I may have to actually shoot someday, god forbid.

He said to make sure the shot counts, one story is better than two. He said to call the police immediately and have the gun laying on the ground in front of you with your hands visible when they arrive. You should only say, I was in fear of my life (or someone elses), I shot for the mass to stop the threat, I didnt intend to kill him and I want my attorney. Dont say anything else. Not Im tired, want a drink, nothing. Until your attorney arrives and you can get in a private place.

Now, Im not giving legal advice, but that is what I would do should it ever happen. That came from the best defense atty around here and one of the best in the state, from what Im told. I know the prosecutors and cops hate the SOB, so he must be pretty damned good.....

Andy

Petey,
I didnt read your post too well. I dont know if I would shoot if I werent intending to kill. The way I understand it, you can count on a lawsuit when you shoot someone. Some long lost relative that is out of crack money, if nothing else, will find some ACLU lawyer or something to take the case and you will be sued. And maiming or wounding does two things. It leaves another account of the incident and it raises the question of how bad the threat actually was that brought you to shoot.

I know that if someone is in my home that is trying to harm me or my family, the only way they would be wounded is if I miss.

Oh and one more thing, in MO, you can shoot to protect lives, but not property. If someone is stealing your car and there is no immediate threat to you, you cant shoot. And, if you have stopped the threat, such as someone just beat the snot out of you and your laying on the ground, but they are backing away, you cant shoot. Legally. The threat is over.

[gd357]

I got into a discussion like this with one of my friends who happens to carry. He said that the only way he would ever use his gun is when human life was threatened. To paraphrase, things can be replaced but people cannot. That's his perspective. I still haven't completely formulated what would constitute a shooting situation, and that's one of the reasons why I don't currently carry.

gd

[Jack]

Andy has a good point- defend life, not your TV set.
Regulations vary from state to state, and it's important to know what the criteria is in your state.
I think in your house has a lower standard of 'ok to shoot' in most states than outside the home. Outside the home, for example on the street, in a parking lot, a question a DA is going to raise right away is "could you have run, rather than shot?".

[fabsroman]

Yep, laws vary from state to state, and if you carry in your state you had better make sure you know exactly what the self defense laws are.

Maryland observes the duty to retreat doctrine along with the castle doctine. A person has a duty to retreat from any situation before he uses deadly force, except in his home (i.e, his castle) wherein he is allowed to use deadly force.

Also, deadly force can be used to defend others, but you had better be really sure about who you are shooting and that they aren't the ones being accosted. For the most part, unless you know the person who is about to lose his/her life, do not shoot the other guy.

If the threat is neutralized, you cannot kill the person. If the person starts retreating when you pull the gun, you cannot kill them unless it is in your house. Quite honestly, I believe that the law should be that no questions are asked for killing a burglar in your home. The reason we have as much crime as we do is because the poor sheep cannot defend themselves.

I have run a bunch of scenarios through my head. If somebody comes into my house at night, you can bet that I will be pulling the trigger as soon as I identify that they aren't somebody I know. I will not be waiting to see if they have a gun or allowing them to retreat and regroup with a possible buddy just to come back and ambush me.

If it is during daylight hours and I have the drop on them, I will check to see if they have a gun.

Essentially, I plan on calling the police department should anybody break in and then staying on the 4th floor of my place with the handgun in hand. There is only one door up to that level, so that is the only spot I need to worry about and there are plenty of places for me to coverup behind. I definitely will not be the one getting surprised.

[Andy L]

Fabs, I have already thought that through and acted on it. They will be armed. Whether before or after the incident, they will be armed. ;)

In my business, I am constantly thinking about this stuff and thats why I talked to an atty. But, I was also taught alot of it in my CCW class and another law enforcement class that I took that is required for bondsman. Its good stuff to know.

Basically, if your on the street and some guy jumps you and beats your ass good, if you can get a bullet in him while hes in the act, your good. But after the threats gone, no go.

And, always be aware, you WILL be sued. Cop, private citizen, it dont matter, shoot someone and you will be sued.

Andy

[model 70]

what about stabbing? not all of us carry a gun around but the majority of us do carry knives.

[fabsroman]

Stabbing would be considered deadly force, so it would fall under the same rules. I think a baseball bat might too if it isn't a 100 lb woman swinging the bat. Same would go for golf clubs probably. The standard used in Maryland is "deadly force." A person cannot use deadly force unless deadly force is being used against them, with the exception of the person's home.

[gregarat]

At work, even off duty. If someone brandishes a gun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife and billie, within nine feet of me. I will shoot them in the chest. I will also shoot to protect myself or another person from death or serious bodily harm, trying to prevent a forcible felony (such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping).
By Florida law I cannot give a warning shot, or shoot to wound. At work I cannot cock the hammer for a single action shot, double action only.

I might get some "wiggle room" at work, cause my work place is covered under the Castle Doctrine.

But like Andy said, I can probably expect a law suite. Covering my behind is extremely important at work.

[fabsroman]

Gergarat,

How is the move to Florida panning out? If I am not mistaken, you have been down there a year or more now.

What kind of work do you do? Are you and LEO, security guard, or is this one of those "I could tell you but I would have to kill you" types of jobs?

[gregarat]

I moved down here in the beginning of March. Everything is going great! This is a very beautiful, and unique town. It beats the living heck out of "Sorryexcuse" N.Y.

I work both armed and unarmed security jobs. I get payed a little bit more for armed security. Which is dull, as you can probably imagin. I also work for a small "mom & pops" unarmed outfit. The unarmed is way more interesting. Not only do I get a break on my rent, working unarmed. But working apartment complexes is exiting to say the least. One minute I'm dealing with a out of control party, full of mostly spoiled brats. The next gorgeous college girls (wich there is a rich abundance of) are flirting, even hitting on me. Its very surreal. Bing 28yrs and looking 21yrs is a huge advantage when dealing with these kids.

I have to wait a year before going back to school. Unless I want pay double tuition. As you might guess my major is Criminal Justice. As of right now I'm not interested in becoming a LEO, especially not here in Gainesville. Don't get me wrong, I have tons of respect LEOs. These cops are just under trained, and it truly is a "good old boy" system. I see most members of the Gainesville police as tax collectors. Pluse from what I hear, the D.A. couldn't even convict Charles Manson:rolleyes:. Ive been seriously been considering becoming a Private Detective or even something else in the private sector.

One thing that's has been bugging me is I'm going to miss out on hunting, this year. I might need to take another hunters safety course, for Florida. Pulse working two jobs is taking up all of my time. I really wish there was more than 24 hours in a day.

Isn't your brother here in Gainesville, if I'm not mistaken? If your ever visit, drop me a line. It would be cool to meet you in person:) .

[brandoneh297]

Every state is completely different in their regulations. Texas law states that if someone enters into your home, you must retreat to the farthest room you can to avoid confrontation. Colorado has the "make my day law" where it states that you have full rights to use leathal force if you feel your life is threatened in any way. If you live in California or New Jersey you're probably required to make them dinner and invite them to sleep over. Ok that last one I made up but the other two are real and I'm probably not that far off with California and New Jersy, haha. As far as having to go to court for it, it's going to happen 99% of the time so you might as well prepare for it. As long as you went by what your state requires you will be ok though. In reality you have to weigh going to court with how big of a threat they are. Even if you have the legal right to use lethal force, you might want to try another option to aviod legal battles. Lastly, if you are going to fire your weapon you had better make it to kill, becuase wounding makes a much, much bigger mess for going to court.

[gregarat]

As far as getting a law suite goes.

I would much rather get tried by twelve, than carried by six.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

I think a baseball bat might too if it isn't a 100 lb woman swinging the bat. Same would go for golf clubs probably.

I used to work in the emergency room of a Detroit hosptial; I've seen some 100 lb (and less!) women do a hell of a lot of damage with blunt force instruments! Deadly force would certainly be justified..at least in these cases.

One woman took a pot of hot grits and threw it on her husband as he was doing the horizontal mambo with his other lady-friend.....caused some severe 2nd degree burns!

Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.....get the hell out of the way or use deadly force!;)

[8X56MS]

If there is someone in my house, in the wee dark hours of the night,I am going to assume he is NOT there to gift me with presents. I am also going to assume that he is armed, and intends me, or my loved ones harm. I am gonna shoot him. The cops can come and sort it out later.

Gragarat, I will be moving back up to Gainesville by the spring. If you have not lined up a place to hunt by then, I can hook you up with some fine folks around Gainesville.

[gregarat]

Ahh.. I see now why you shop at Pickets, and know Sam Andrews.

Oh no.... Theres going to be two Huntchat members in Gainesville! Bwahahaha!! Hope to see ya around man:) .

[fabsroman]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Can you imagine trying to explain shooting your wife in that situation. Would a jury really buy that? Assuming, for arguendo's sake, that I was in that situation, I think I would rather take the 2nd degree burns, broken bones, and bruises than shoot my wife.

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Fabs;
I wasn't really refering to shooting the wife in that situation....just trying to point out the fact that small in stature does not necessarily mean that they are not a threat.
And to be quite honest, I probably would shoot someone who was trying to scald me & claim self defense. To the best of my knowledge, the law states that one can protect themselves from "death or great bodily harm". Have you ever been to a burn unit? Ever seen skin grafts....or infections resulting from skin grafts? Or the after effects (scaring) from burns? I'd think I'd take my chances with the jury.

[fabsroman]

I think I would rather take my chances jumping out the window in that situation.

Your witness will be your mistress. It will also depend on how many assets you stand to lose form a divorce, but in this "freak" occurence, your wife just happens to get shot when she walks in on you and the mistress. How many assets were titled jointly and will be going to you? How much did you "love" your wife if you were willing to pull the trigger on her?

Like I said, I would rather jump out the window from the second story than face a jury under those conditions.

As far as people of small stature potentially causing severe bodily harm, I will agree with you.

Regarding your question about having visited a burn unit, I have never done so. I was just looking at it from a legal stand point and if I would like to be the defense attorney on that case. I sure wouldn't and you can bet I would be getting a large retainer in advance of the trial.

[HANDGUNNER]

What ever you do will be questioned, no matter what you do. People who are very comfortable, warm, safe, well fed, time on their hands, not in the dark, will decide if what you did was proper.

The best advise is to keep your mouth shut for 48 hrs. following any incident and talk to an attorney. Every jurisdiction is different, every cop is different and may slant his/her report to reflect their own views of armed self defensive (unknowingly, no malice,) and every county attorney will be different.

Relatives and people who hardly knew the scumbag will come out in droves to say what a good guy he was and the gun freak who shot him is wrong or lying. It's the worst thing that can ever happen to you, short of death. Get it!

[gregarat]

Good advice!
following any incident and talk to an attorney. and no one else.

[WyoShooter]

Ever hear the phrase,
"It's not the size of the man in the fight...It's the size of the fight in the man."
A 100 lb. woman can do a lot of damage if she wants too.

If someone were to come into my house in the dark unwelcomed I would tell them to stop and identify themself and if I didn't get an answer then I would give them a blast with my flashlight. The best thing you can do is ruin their night vision.
If I identified them as a threat wether it be they were carrying a weapon or there body posture told me they were up to no good I would take them out. Then I would call the police and then call my lawyer.

[HuntinDoc]

Brandon, I think you had better check those Texas laws again. You have no duty to retreat in your own home at any time, period. In fact you don't even have to be in the home during the night. Criminal mischief in the nightime is justification for the use of lethal force. ie. The case of an elderly gentleman in Harris county (Houston) who was robed an beaten two months in a row on the day his SS check came. The next month when the three low lifes came to visit he was sitting on his roof with a rifle and shot all three dead. They were on his property and official sun down was ~20 min prior to the shooting. No charges were filed.

Andy, Don't throw down a weapon. It doesn't matter if the shooting was justified or not. That weapon will be tested and if you are found to have placed the weapon you will be fried in court. Just tell the jury why you felt in fear of your life. If you have a good lawyer he will demonstrate how perceptions change during a life threatening situation. Tunnel vision, Lighting, that a person can cover 20 feet in less than 2 seconds etc, etc.