slugs or buck shot

[model 70]

recently found a hunting area that's in a river bottom but is shotgun only for firearms. i just happen to have a single shot 12ga w/ mod. choke and 28" barrel. would i be best off using slugs or buckshot for deer hunting? there is some thick cover back in there.

[Duffy]

Definitely slugs.

[skeet]

What Duffy said. Slugs for certain!!

[LoneWolf]

I agree, slugs it is.

[jmarriott]

IF the normal shot will be a moving or running deer 20-30 yards shoot the buckshot if legal.

A good slug is hard to beat up close on walking /standing deer.

Your mod barrel should do about 3 inch at 60 yards if you can get it to sight correctly for the slugs.

I have seen deer hit with buck up close and it is brutally effective.
Most bad stories are about shots taken at to far distance.

[rem 700]

Use the tru-ball slugs from federal cartridge(great smooth bore slug). If the deer are so close that you are worried about spooking them, and them running off, use buckshot.

[fabsroman]

I haerd that the Tru-ball slugs from Federal are pretty good for those smoothbore barrels, which I will assume is what you have. The plastic ball inside them prevents the slug from being crushed upon setback (i.e., when they are fired).

Does your shotgun have choke tubes? If so, you could buy a rifled choke tube for it and use sabots which can be a lot more accurate than slugs.

[Lilred]

I probaly aint got no business in this here thread...but shootin slugs in a smoothbore just plain aint good in my opinion.
I have seen so many guns that people have shot slug after slug through go to pot. Then when you really need a "shotgun" you aint gonna have it. Say bye-bye to a good pattern.
I would get a rifled barrel or go with the buckshot.
We never could hunt with a rifle and I've used buckshot all my life and have killed a plenty of deer in my lifetime. Most of them deer are runnin too..so you can bring em down as long as the gun patterns well and you have good "matchin" shells to it.

If you take the time to learn yer gun, pattern it and take the time to find the right shell fer the gun..you'll do fine with buckshot even in heavy cover. As fer as a standin deer a well placed load of 00 will drop a deer in it's tracks and you wont have to feel guilty bout shootin a slug through a smoothbore.
Maybe these days they might have improved slug loads to shoot through smoothbores..but I wouldnt wanna find out next year when all of a sudden you notice...dern, my gun dont shoot as good as it used to.

[HANDGUNNER]

I grew up in a shotgun only area. My grandfather, uncles, all my cousins used buckshot, (everyone had a slug or two in case they saw a deer in a field.) Now everyone hates buckshot and uses slugs. I've heard horror stories about buckshot and I only use slugs, but like I mentioned it worked fine for years. I live in the N/E and we hunt in the thick stuff, most shots are just beyond Bow range and under 75yrds.

[GoodOlBoy]

I have heard buckshot horror stories my whole life, and I have used buckshot my whole life. I never had a deer that didn't drop in its tracks from buckshot if I was within 20-30 yards (heavy brush too) I carry slugs now as well ONLY because last year I shot a buck at less than 10 yards with buckshot and lost the whole right front shoulder. Rifled lead slugs do work better in smothbores than non rifled slugs do, but lilred is right. It aint a slug gun its a shotgun. And shot is what it was designed for.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Not dissing anyone here...specially lilred....Just to TRY to change your minds... Shooting slugs in a shotgun will never ruin the barrel. Heck y'all..slugs are a lot softer than most of the good high performance loads that you shoot through a shotgun barrel. The only thing that may happen is you will lead the choke area up a bit and ruin the pattern in a tightly bored gun. A nice tight (oversize) bore brush and some shooters choice will fix that up in a jiffy. Remember...steel shot is a lot harder than a shotgun slug...and it won't ruin a barrel made to take it....so the old saw about ruining a shotgun barrel with slugs is just a bunch of horse patooties. Heck buckshot leaves almost as much leading in the bore as a slug. Now as to the buck for deer. It'll kill 'em..has for years. If that is what ya grew up shooting well go ahead and shoot it. BUT keep your ranges short.( Like GOB says...20-30 yds is great.) That means under 50 yds or so. And only use 00 or 000 on those longer shots. I have used buck on a few( maybe 20) deer and it really does kill em if you can put some of those ol blue whistlers in the boiler room. Personally most of the deer I have shot were at short brushy ranges...meaning under 50 yds. And yes there were a few I missed I woulda probably killed if I were using buck...but not so many as you would think. If ya learn to shoot 'em slugs work just fine in the thick brush as well...aw heck...actually better than buckshot. Too many deer just run off with buckshot in 'em. And I do know of what I speak. I have shot an awful lot of deer...10-15 a year over a period of 35 yrs...and slugs are easier to kill with than buckshot...even in the thick brush. Now y'all read that right... I said easier to KILL with...not necessarily easier to hit with:D

[Lilred]

So what yer sayin Skeet..is that iffin they clean the gun and do a lil brushin..that the gun would be ok? Hmmm...makes sense.
I reckon alot of people just dont do that. I love old guns..and I will not buy one iffin I find out they had slugs shot through em.
While you might clean yer gun after shootin slugs..not everybody would. As fer as buckshot goes..you can easily wound/not drop a deer usin buckshot. but that is entirely up to the shooter in my opinion. Iffin they dont pattern their gun or just take a stupid shot (i.e 60 yrds runnin through a thicket) chances are better that you'll have the deer at least run a ways. Down here, deer is usually runnin through the woods (dog huntin) so unless yer a decendant of Annie Oakley..shootin a slug through that just aint practical. Er at least to me..cause I caint hold that title..lol:rolleyes: With the exception of a couple times rifle huntin..which I was very proud of..but sure couldnt pull that off every day lol

[GoodOlBoy]

Oh don't get me wrong I am not saying you can't wound a deer with buckshot and have it run off, I am say that I have never had that issue. Certainly it can happen. Buckshot is not some magical end all and be all. You have to be use to hunting with buckshot, and you have to respect its limitations and its abilities. It is a WHOLE different game than shooting clay pigeons with bird shot etc. I have taken running deer with buckshot, but it is one heck of a trick that I don't ever plan to repeat again if I can help it. The chances of one running off wounded under those circumstances is just too great. I use buckshot in a single shot 20 guage shotgun, and I only use it within 30 yards. Rifled lead slugs I am piepan accurate with out to 50-60 yards, but I still prefere shot (and I don't get many shots beyond 30 yards anyway)

BTW LilRed pointed out another valid point. DON"T use buckshot in a gun you have not patterned more than once with that exact brand and type of buckshot. And while cylinder choked home security 12 guage shotguns may make impressive patterns with buckshot on plywood and in hallways, I know of danged few better ways to lose a deer. I wouldn't shoot buckshot in anything less than a modified choke personally.

But thats just me.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Lil red...If ya look at a bore that has shot a fair amount of the old style slugs..without cleaning after...you can often see a streaky area in the choke region. A good bore brushing with a lead and copper solvent will clean it right up...and it'll be good as new again. Might be a way for ya to buy an older shotgun a bit cheaper next time.. ask if it has shot slugs...and then act a little put off if they say yes...but buy it anyway if it is cheaper:D Whoo Hooo if ya get it a good bit cheaper.

Now as to shooting slugs in the woods on running deer. The average shooter thinks he is shooting a rifle when using slugs...and of course he will usually shut one eye like they think they should... The wrong way to shoot a shotgun slug on a running animal. Shoot it like a shotgun...both eyes open and swing the gun like you are shooting shot. The key is to not look at the whole deer. Look at where ya want to hit it..like behind the shoulder. If you shoot a shotgun at all well, Your slug will go where you look. Buckshot too. The problem I have with buckshot isn't the buckshot itself..it is the shooter. Most will shoot at too long ranges. And to tell ya the truth..60 yds is too far for clean kills consistently with 00 Buck. You need multiple hits to kill cleanly at that range...and most buck shot loads just won't do it.. And there is an awful lot of brush and trees in the way of that load of pellets..so you have a better chance of hitting a deer with one or two pellets...but not too much chance of killing with such a hit. Much better chances at 40 yds and under. Not advocating stopping the use of Buckshot..just being practical in it's use. And I know that deer have been killed at much longer ranges with buckshot. Heck I saw a deer killed at a range of almost 400 yds with a 410 slug. That deer had almost as much chance of getting hit by lightning as being killed by that tiny little slug.

[Lilred]

Now Skeet...iffin I buy a "slug-shot" shotgun and it dont shoot werth a hoot..I'm gonna come up yonder and drag you down to Virginia by yer ear! :eek: :p ;)
Seriously tho..here's somethin weird...I aint never in all my life shot a shotgun, er any gun fer that matter, with both eyes open.
After readin yer post, I asked the better half iffin he shot his shotgun with both eyes open. He says on runnin game he does! Well..now that he's in the doghouse, so much fer the "better half" part. LOL ;) Kiddin again..sorry.
Not bout the one eye thing tho..so I sat here like a retard "pretend" swingin at runnin game with both eyes open and I caint see a difference. I've killed alotta game "my way" over the years..so iffin I attempt it now I would probaly miss like crazy. But I wouldnt mind tryin some skeet out fer general principle to see iffin maybe I could benefit from holdin my eyes open.
Ya know..I aint never put a terrible lot of thought into how I was shootin. I always shut the eye that felt comfortable and made myself learn how to shoot that way. I'm also a lefty, and I learned at a young to shoot a right-handed gun. Have shot em fer years and a left handed gun seems awkward fer me now. I dont like automatics..so I never have to worry bout shells flyin in my face. when I was lil, I learned to use a right-handed pump. And lemme tell ya, I can safely pump the shotgun and draw another bead in a split second..and never have a shell hit me. I reckon I kinda adapted to the punches the werld threw at me.

Edited to say: we have never been able to hunt w/ a rifle in our county until 2 years ago, and fer that you gotta be 10ft offa the ground. Which means that all (er the majority)of the gun-season deer was taken with buckshot and most were probaly runnin.
Just a point to say historically...it can be done w/ buckshot.

[fabsroman]

Lilred,

Like you, I was taught to shoot with one eye closed. Luckily though, I am right handed and right eye dominant. Nowadays, I tend to keep both eyes open as I acquire the target and bring the gun up to it. However, I still close my left eye before pulling the trigger. Regarding the right eye dominance thing, it might be that you are right eye dominant and are shooting the correct way (i.e., right handed). One of my sisters is left eye dominant and right handed, so I am in the process of teaching her how to shoot left handed. Sometimes she gets frustrated and goes back to the right hand, but she is trying to learn.

If you aren't shooting near 100%, there is room for improvement and there is always the possibility of changing technique. I have done it over the years. For instance, I used to shoot sporting clays with a mounted gun, but then tried it with a low gun and found it easier to track the target. Try shooting skeet with both eyes open and see how you do. You should also figure out whether you are right or left eye dominant.

[skeet]

Lil... I just bought an old Model 12 Winchester from a lady. Her Husband died 2 years ago and he had been a good friend. The only thing he used the gun for in the last 10 yrs was deer hunting. We can only use slugs here in this county, I cleaned the bore with a 10 ga bore brush and an electric dill and a bit of shooters choice. Had a fair amount of lead in the bore . Shot it the other night at the trap range near home and broke a 23 with it. I missed 2(I hate them darn near straightaways). It is an older trap gun and the fellow used it for everything..but he only hunted deer at the last. as far as doing things to me...remember my motto...Hurt me... beat me...make me feel cheap!! Hahahaha! BY the way guys...that only goes for Lilred. Y'all just stay quiet now ya hear??!!

[Lilred]

LOL...I always figgered you was a wild man skeet ;) :D

I will try to do the "eyes open" thing on a couple practice runs fore the weekend iffin I git the chance. Sat is first day of loader..and I gotta werk till 2...but I am gonna hunt the afternoon. Maybe on Sunday I'll give it a whirl.
As fer as my next gun goes...I will try not to take the "slug gun" thing so seriously.
Ya know..the best part bout life..is that ya can never quit learnin.I am older now :p and set in my ways a lil bit..but not afraid to try somethin new. Thanks fellas...ya'll are perty sharp..fer a bunch of wild men anyways ;) :D

P.S ya'll might wanna watch it..some of the women on this here board likes em wild....LOL

[wrenchman]

me and the guys in my group kill deer every year with buck shot
we also youse slugs a lot.
I have shot deer at over 150 yards with slugs and at 15 yards with buck shot.
If you pattern your gun before you go hunting to make sure it will shoot buck shot well you wont have any problim.
In the area i hunt we have hunt with shot guns for deer.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yup I think that is what it really boils down to. If you are going to shoot buckshot with a shotgun you HAVE to know the gun. This ain't a grab it off a wal-mart shelf and run out and pop a deer with it game. You HAVE to know that gun, and alot of people simply don't. (Present company excluded)

Slugs in smoothbores. Yet again I think familiarity and ignorance have alot to do with the horrid reputation of the accuracy of slugs. Last night I spotted a guy at Wal-Mart buying a box of sabot slugs because his buddy highly recommends them. After bullshitting with him for half an hour I find out he has had cronic accuracy problems with slugs in his shotgun. It winds up boiling down to the following list.

He has a smoothbore shotgun.
His buddy has a rifled bore sluggun.

His buddy is very accurate with sabot slugs (designed for rifled bores), and cant get accuracy with rifled lead slugs (Designed for smooth bores) Therefor the chain of logic was that rifled lead slugs suck and sabots rock, therefore he was advised to buy yet another brand of sabots to try because sabots weren't grouping at all in his smoothbore. I finally talked him into paying $1.97 for a box of 5 rifled lead slugs and get him to try them in HIS smoothbore, not his buddies rifled bore slug gun.

This is a prime example of the problem. So many shooters assume that a slug is a slug is a slug, and if a rifled lead slug sucks in a rifled bore then it sucks in a smooth bore, and if a sabot slug rocks in a rifled bore then it rocks in a smooth bore. Both assumptions of which are false (And we have not even taken the finiky diet problems of various guns into consideration).

Take my home security shotgun example from before. With my 12 guage mossy cylinder choked persuader buckshot has a 3 foot pattern at 15-20 yards! Not what you want to use on a deer (But great for home security). But rifled lead slugs I can nail a 4 inch swinging pan at 75 yards EVERY shot. A buddy of mine bought slugs to shoot it one time and what did he buy? Sabot slugs. He couldn't hit a 10 inch pan at 35 yards with it, much less the 4 inch pan at 75 yards. A smooth bore just does NOT work well with sabot slugs they were not designed for that. For smoothbores rifled lead slugs are decent to great depending on the gun and the range, and smooth lead slugs are piss poor to decent depending on the gun and the range.

IE You HAVE to know your gun, and you HAVE to accept the shotcommings of the shot/slug type that you are shooting in THAT gun in the current enviroment (Be it the shooting range or the deer camp)

Like with all things we cannot assume that what works for one works for another. We can get general ideas! IE buckshot works within its limitations, and very well. Rifled lead slugs work within their limitations and very well. Sabot slugs work within their limitations and very well. And even good old fashioned smooth lead slugs can work decent within their limitations. But none of them is magic medicine. They are only as good as the person using them.

I grew up on shotguns, and am a natural born shotgunner. I prefere them to rifles and pistols (yes even over my 45s!) for everything from hunting to security. Heck I would put my old single shot H&R 20 guage that is 27 years old this year against anybodies anything! Why? Not that it is better than some of the works of art that guys on here have. Not that I am better than they are. But instead because I am familiar with that old gun, I grew up with it, and I accept it just like it accepts me. We know each others shortcommings, and we know each others long shots. Does that mean I am going to win every shot against some of the great shooters we have on here? No. But it means that even if I loose I will do so knowing that I did my best, my old shotgun did its best, the ammo did what it was supposed to, and there is no shame in the lose, and no excuses to be made.

“know thy enemy and know thyself; in a hundred battles you will never
be in peril. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your
chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy
and of yourself, you are certain in every battle to be in peril.”

-- The Art of War. Sun Tzu

"Know thy shotgun and know thyself, and in a hundred hunts you will never go hungry. When you are ignorant of the shotgun but know yourself, your chances of eating or starving are equal. If ignorant of both your shotgun and yourself you are certain to starve"
- East Texas GoodOlBoy shotgunner's take on what Sun Tzu said.


GoodOlBoy

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I gotta agree with you, shooting slugs in any shotgun will never "shoot the choke out of it" as I used to hear when I was a kid. I suggest folks go to the bench and shoot various slugs from their shotguns and carefully record where the gun's point of impact is in relation to point of aim. I have a dozen 12 gauge guns and all but two shoot slugs where "they are looking" out to 100 yards. I have deer barrels for two of my pumps and the rear sights are zeroed for specific makes of slugs and recorded in my shooting diary. The other guns have simple beads, but will keep slugs in the black on a smallbore target at 100 yards.

In PA, only the 4 or 5 Special Regulations counties near Philadelphia permit buckshot. I prefer slugs and have Federal, Winchester and Remington slugs put by for specific shotguns.

Adam

[GoodOlBoy]

Agreed, like Skeet and Adam the only "damage" I have seen from slug shooting in shotguns is lead fouling. Same thing I see in alot of used 22s.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

My shotgun shooting instructor once told me a really good thing to remember... When shooting a shotgun...if you see the front sight ....you're done! The meaning was..when shooting a shotgun if you look at what you want to hit... It is almost impossible to miss.... be it a flying bird or a running animal. The same holds true when shooting a slug. You shoot a slug gun the same way on a running deer. He started me shooting at flying things with a bb gun. throwing a ball up and hitting it got to be really easy...even with a bb gun. He kept making the target smaller and smaller. Eventually got to where I could throw up an aspirin and hit it 3 or 4 times out of 5. This really isn't a brag. It really is quite easy...once you get the hang of it. I have my grandson hitting small thrown targets pretty well. He is 10. My daughter used to make a bunch of the sports(goose hunters) look bad. I took them out in the middle of the day to a few farms to shoot pigeons. She was a great shot when something moved ..especially fast. Couldn't hardly hit a sitting squirrel(she finally got over that). 13 yr old gal that could outshoot almost all of them. It was funny. Taught her the same way. If you talk to a good rifle shot that uses open sights what the sights looked like on a running deer and he'll probably say...I don't know! Course he might lie a little:D :D Oh BTW the bb gun I used...well that ol feller took the sights off that gun. Just look at the target

[Jack]

Durn, Skeet ! That brings back memories!
I learned to shoot a shotgun the same way- with a BB gun. Used wine corks and empty thread spools as targets.
Don't do much shotgun shooting these days, but when I do, I have to remind my self not to think....get to thinking about lead and follow thru and all that stuff, and I'm not gonna hit anything.:D
If I disengage my brain, things start falling when I shoot (well, more often, anyway)

[GoodOlBoy]

Mine was a Red Ryder BB gun, and my grandfather use to flick his cigarette butts out for me to shoot. . . . . Sheesh thought I was the only one.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Ya know..that brings up another little thingie... I bought my grandson a Red Ryder. And I've seen a lot of other newer bb guns. The darn things are really no where near as accurate as the ones I had as a kid. And a kid down the road had onna them Daisy Pumps...put my ol lever gun to shame. What gives with these innaccurate new BB guns? Are there any good ones any more?? Heck and I thought I was the onliest one that knew about that bb gun trick...hehehehe:D :D Yeah right!:eek:

[GoodOlBoy]

Ya know Skeet ol buddy. Last year my wife found my old red rider from when I was a kid, and seeing how bad a shape it was in she went out and bought me a new one. Not only is it not as acurate, heck it dont shoot a tenth as hard. . . . . I guess the good old days really are gone. . . .

GoodOlBoy

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

In 1981, I went to Camp Smith, NY and attended a two-week FBI Advanced Firearms Instructors' Course. We spent three days shooting BB guns without sights at aerial targets. We then shot trap, skeet and a host of full auto arms. I fondly recall that class and did my first, of many, 25s straight at trap and skeet in later years right up to today.

Adam

[skeet]

GOB...I also noticed that..just forgot to mention it. They don't have any power anymore. Well I guess it's all about safety, ya know? Seriously..we could shoot at and hit blackbirds etc from a good distance. I am sure we did many a bird in at 25-30 yds. I don't think BB's are as large as bore size anymore either..or even close.

Adam I'll bet that was an eye opening experience. I don't think the average person realizes how much work goes into shooting well. I teach shotgun shooting. I prefer to teach women. Men are all born as Americans knowing everything there is to know about shooting. I have given a couple of shooting classes to the local sheriff's office deputies. Usually opens their eyes too. They can surely teach me about handgun shooting but they spend very little time learning to shoot the ol pump guns they carry. Most think if you point it in the right direction you can't miss. Most of my women students learn at twice the rate of the male students. BUT the males keep the knowledge while women usually forget it if they don't continue to shoot. I have a lady who's great desire is to shoot better than her..well...significant other....and his friends. She just got back from the Dakotas pheasant hunting.. and she shot well. Soon she is off to England for driven bird shooting and then to Spain for some other grouse shooting. Every year she comes back to see me before Dove season here and almost has to learn from scratch.... till this year. She remembered the last lessons of last year pretty well. BTW she shot better than the boyfriend last year and felt a little selfconscious because of it. . Got that changed now too....and did I mention she's rich?? And pretty nice looking too. Oh well!!:D

[fabsroman]

Come on Skeet, we all know why you like to teach the women more than the men. LOL No need to hide the true reason with things like "The women learn a heck of a lot better and, as a result, are much more fun to teach." Why not say, the men are hard heads and I find it a true challenge to teach them. That is why I like teaching men. LOL

I have always been saying that you are a high roller. You even hang around the high rollers. That lady has been on more hunts in one year than I will probably go on in a lifetime.

Okay, I guess I better stop harrassing you because I don't want you to embarrass me this weekend at the range.

[HANDGUNNER]

The only deer I ever hit and lost was hit with a 12 gauge (foster type,) slug. I sat on the edge of a small field and took a shot that turned out to be 125-130 yards away. Stupid shot and I knew better. The deer ran into a swamp and I never found it.

You may get that kind of range with a sabot, but not with the old foster type slug. Plus I never sighted in at that range. The point being both slugs and buckshot have their limitations and as a responsible hunter you gotta stay within.

By the way that deer was hit and ran right to left, toward and past me, getting closer and closer. I missed with two more slugs as it ran by me. I wish I had buckshot for those last two shots.

[12ga]

Model 70, if this place you found is in CA, you won't have to worry about a choice. You get one or the other. They tell you what you can use, with no choice left to you. Slugs are required in most of the state except for any area where they are "locally" prohibited.

Check the Methods section of the Mammals hand book from F&G. It's Section 363 or something like that. Don't have my book in reach right now.

In those areas you can use 00 or 000 buckshot but not slugs. As far as I can find out, those areas restricting slugs are not listed so you have to check locally. I have heard. from a BIL, of an area down around San Diego that restricts the use of slugs.

Whacky CA laws aside, I vote for slugs. I've used both and harvested deer with both. Slugs have proved to be more effective for me. I'm 74 and took my first deer at the age of ten. in 1941, and used buckshot to collect a smallish Texas fork-horn.

I've fired many slugs from full choke shotguns with no damage to the gun. In fact, I prefer a 12 gauge with I/C or Modified choke as I've found them to give better groups than Cyl Bore barrels.

I live about 65 miles south-east of you, in Amador County.

Good Luck on your hunt!

12 Ga

[wrenchman]

If you have a smoth bore stay with the foster styl slug and as goodolboy said if you want to youse buck shot get to know how your gun will shoot it.
My 870 shoots a better pattern with a mod chock and the same seems to go with my 1187 i have been told it is becouse i am youseing copper plated beffered shot by winchester.

[wrenchman]

Here are some pics first one are two deer that were taken open morn both were shot over 100 yards the second is a doe taken
3rd day with buck shot at about 20 yards

[wrenchman]

buck shot