Minutemen on the Border

[Hawkeye6]

One of my biggest concerns for the future of the United States of America is the problem of uncontrolled, illegal immigration and the attendant costs, financial, ethical, moral and societal, that come with it. My hat is off to people like this who are trying to do something about it, even thought their government is failing them.

What follows are a couple of recent articles on South Texas.

[Hawkeye6]

Civilian monitors on both borders
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published October 1, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More than 4,000 civilian volunteers are expected to man observation posts beginning today on the Mexican border from Texas to California and in states along the Canadian border in a new Minuteman protest of immigration-enforcement policies they consider lax.
Chris Simcox, who heads the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, yesterday said the organization has "greatly expanded" since a similar but limited vigil in Arizona in April to help secure the nation's border against illegal entry.
"The risk of terrorists and criminals entering this country through our wide open borders is at a critical level," Mr. Simcox said. "When the government fails to fulfill its primary duty and protect this nation, it is up to self-governing people to step into the breach.
"Americans have historically organized and done what is necessary to defend this country. Today is no different," he said.
Mr. Simcox said members of the Vietnam Veterans and Gulf War Coalition and Rolling Thunder will join in the operation, known as "Secure Our Borders."
Participants will report to the U.S. Border Patrol but will not detain those attempting to illegally cross into the United States. They will be deployed in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas, as well as border regions of Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Washington, Idaho, Montana and North Dakota.
Mr. Simcox, founder of the Civil Homeland Defense Corps in Arizona, coordinated the "Minuteman Project" border vigil that is credited with shutting down a 23-mile stretch of the U.S.-Mexico border to illegal immigration in April.
In Arizona, 850 volunteers stood watch near Naco to reduce the flow of illegal aliens in one of the nation's most-traveled immigration corridors. Their goal was to show that increased manpower on the border would effectively deter illegal immigration. During the 30-day vigil, apprehensions by Border Patrol agents in the targeted area dropped from more than 500 a day to fewer than 15.
Although Department of Homeland Security and Border Patrol supervisors in Arizona discounted the Minuteman efforts, saying apprehension totals declined because the Mexican government deployed military and police south of the targeted area, field agents said the volunteers cut the flow of illegal aliens.
Before the April vigil, Minuteman critics contended the group consisted of anti-immigration racists who would violently confront border crossers. That did not occur.
The National Border Patrol Council, Local 2544, in Tucson, Ariz., also endorsed the Minuteman Project, saying its members -- about 2,000 field agents -- did not have "one single complaint from a rank-and-file agent in this sector about the Minutemen."
"Every report we've received indicates these people are very supportive of the rank-and-file agents. They're courteous. Many of them are retired firefighters, cops and other professionals, and they're not causing us any problems whatsoever," the council said.
Residents in the area also thanked the Minutemen in a full-page newspaper ad "for doing what our government won't -- close the border to illegal aliens."
Since its Arizona beginnings, the Minuteman organization has mounted a national campaign, hiring lawyers, organizing into separate corporations, hiring a District-based public relations firm and beginning a vigorous fundraising effort. Its leadership also has actively lobbied members of Congress for immigration reform.
"We've written letters, sent faxes and e-mails, made countless calls and held town hall meetings about what is not just a public safety issue but a national security concern," Mr. Simcox said, describing his group's message to the government. "But we're done waiting for the government to do the job of securing our borders."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050930-115620-2706r.htm

[Hawkeye6]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Minutemen arrival chases away smugglers
By Jerry Seper
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published October 5, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FALFURRIAS, Texas -- Smugglers who typically ferry loads of illegal aliens and drugs through an 18-mile corridor here every day have moved elsewhere.
"They've spotted and tracked our observation posts with their infrared and [Global Positioning System] equipment and they don't want any part of us," Dr. Michael Vickers yesterday told a crowd of Minuteman Civil Defense Corps members, who four days ago began a nationwide border vigil to protest immigration policies they say endanger the United States.
Now, the Minutemen will counter.
They will adjust more than 500 civilian volunteers assigned to foot and horseback patrols at scattered observation posts, called "laundry lines," along the Highway 281 corridor, which the U.S. Border Patrol considers a major alien- and drug-smuggling route.
"Hundreds of them cross over my property every day, cutting through or digging under the fences," said Dr. Vickers, a veterinarian, community leader and Republican state committee member.
Dr. Vickers has allowed the Minutemen to set up a makeshift headquarters on his 2,000-acre cattle ranch, which is about 70 miles north of the Mexican border, and persuaded his neighbors to open up about 100,000 acres of private land to the protesters.
Concerned about the threat of terrorism, rising violence, a flood of illegal immigration, and the ongoing damage and mounds of trash on the ranches, Dr. Vickers expects that total soon will grow to more than 800,000 acres.
"Our country is being invaded and it's about time something is done about it," said Dr. Vickers, who remains a close friend to his Texas A&M classmate Texas Gov. Rick Perry, a Republican.
The patrols here began Saturday as part of a nationwide vigil by the Minutemen from Texas to California along the Mexican border and in eight states along the Canadian border. It was scheduled to run for 30 days, but now has been extended indefinitely.
Al Garza, president of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps of Texas, said the civilian volunteers will stay at their posts until relieved by the National Guard. The decision is supported by Dr. Vickers, who said he is looking to recruit more than 1,000 Minuteman volunteers to man the Highway 281 corridor permanently.
"Congress and the White House need to wake up to the fact that we are here to stay," Mr. Garza said during an interview at the Minuteman group's Falfurrias camp. "We intend to be that 800-pound gorilla until they act to restore security on our nation's borders. We want to know when the rule of law [is] going to be reinstated."
Participants will report to the U.S. Border Patrol but will not detain those attempting to cross illegally into the United States.
A Marine veteran who served in combat during the Vietnam War, Mr. Garza described the number of posts and patrols here as a "carefully guarded secret" because of pending death threats, including some from the violent street gang Mara Salvatrucha, or MS-13.
But, he said, the sites were scouted out by senior members of the organization after meetings with local law-enforcement authorities, the Border Patrol and area landowners. He described the senior Minuteman officials who attended the meetings as mostly retired military personnel and retired law-enforcement authorities.
The announced figure of 500 could not be independently confirmed, but dozens of vehicles and campsites were observed at the organization's staging area on the Vickers property, about a mile off Highway 281. Unlike the Minuteman group's initial border vigil in Arizona in April, press access to the volunteers and the observation posts was heavily controlled.
"Congress and the White House would have you believe that the border cannot be secured," Mr. Garza said. "But we proved in Arizona that a physical presence on the border will deter illegal immigration."
Mr. Garza was one of the field coordinators of the 30-day Minuteman Project in Arizona, where 857 civilian volunteers shut down a 23-mile section of the U.S.-Mexican border to illegal aliens and drug smugglers.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051004-104448-5748r.htm

[Hawkeye6]

This is excerpted from a Washington Times opinion column, "Inside Politics" by Greg Pierce (10/06/05):

Runoff in California
Illegal immigration emerged as a critical issue in the race to fill the nation's only vacant House seat, as an anti-immigration activist siphoned off enough votes from the Republican-backed favorite to force a runoff election in California.
State Sen. John Campbell finished with 46 percent of the vote in Tuesday's special election in Southern California's heavily Republican Orange County, but failed to gain the majority needed to avoid a runoff, the Associated Press reports.
He will face the top vote-getters from four other parties in the Dec. 6 election. Second-place finisher Marilyn Brewer, a liberal Republican who drew 17 percent of the vote, was eliminated from the race.
Mr. Campbell is still likely to win the seat relinquished by former Rep. Christopher Cox, a Republican who left after 16 years in office to become chief of the Securities and Exchange Commission. The combined vote Tuesday of his runoff opponents was less than 25 percent.
However, one of Mr. Campbell's most vocal critics remained in the race. American Independent Party candidate Jim Gilchrist, who co-founded the Minuteman Project and repeatedly attacked Mr. Campbell's anti-immigration pedigree during the campaign, finished third in the 17-candidate field with 14 percent of the vote.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051006-120857-9528r.htm

*************************************

Gilchrist was able to come in 3rd in the race, eliminating a liberal Republican. Will his conitnued participation lose a Republican seat in the House? Probably not. I do hope the run-off gets more meda coverage.

[GoodOlBoy]

Men in this country use to take a stand. We use to defend our borders. We use to save ourselves. Now we expect a government to do it. The same government that those same men complain about daily. The same government that given the chance would soon make the ability to defend ourselves illegal.

I applaud the minutemen. They are doing something that many in this country would not, or can not do. They are trying to take their safety and the safety of their families, community, and country back into their own hands.

God Bless American, and God watch over these men. They shall surely need it.

GoodOlBoy

[fabsroman]

I agree completely with securing our border. I wonder how hard it would be to build a great wall of Mexico to stop this stuff. Make them tunnel and use infrared to find them, if that is possible.

There was one quote in there that I like, but it scares me. "We are being invaded."

If another country were to try and take over the US by force, we would fight them. What we have is Central America and South America trying to take over the US. What will happen when the majority of the US is hispanic? Will those hispanics being assimilated into the melting pot called the United States of America, or will they try to turn this into the United States of South America? If they are the majority, they will control the Presidency and a good portion of the House and Senate.

I have some hispanic clients, and what really bothers me is that they don't have the same type of love for this country as my parents, aunts and uncles do. My dad has gotten into fights with a few Italian immigrants that talked bad about this country, wherein he told them to go back to Italy if they didn't like it here. The hispanics I deal with would much rather be back home than here. The only reason they are here is because there is no money or food back home. I guess I wouldn't mind being someplace where I didn't have to work at all.

On top of that, I have been to a c ouple of bail hearings and some criminal trials lately and it seems that the majority of the criminals are hispanic in Montgomery County, Maryland. Then again, if they happen to be the majority they would be the majority of criminals too. However, I do not know if they are the majority population wise in this county.

While I am all for immigration, I think it is time we have some seriously controlled immigration. Like Ellis Island of old, where the legal ones sign in and the illegal ones go back.

This country cannot continue to take all the poor, tired, and huddled masses of the Earth and support them, especially when they do not want to be here in the first place.

[Gotcha!]

[Quote from Skeet]

TBO & Cop stuff

TBO I know you like the cop stuff... But have you ever posted anything that was an original thought...by you I mean. Post this crap in some other police forum or something. This isn't bout hunting or whatever...just another cop thingie. Please...take this crap somewhere else


[Quote from Rocky Raab]


Enough Cop Tales

Guys and gals, I hate to post this, but I must.

I don't know if there's some kind of competition or it's just coincidence, but 11 of the 19 most recent posts this morning are news clippings about cops. Why they blossomed isn't important.

While this forum is called "Almost Anything Goes" the point of the board is hunting, shooting and the outdoors. Not police stories.

I don't want to anger or put off any member, but I'm going to have to ask that there be no more police news clippings.

Such news is important - but should best be posted on a police-oriented board. HuntChat isn't the place for it, nor is it the place for the latest in gastroenterology, astronomy or scrapbook techniques.

Okay?

Seems to me if it's OK for a moderator to post an "Off Topic" thread (i.e. 'nothing to do with hunting , shooting and the outdoors'), then any other member ought to be able to do so also! I know this will probably get me removed from Huntchat , but you moderators are becoming a bunch of hypocrites.

[Andy L]

This may not be a popular idea, but its my feelings on it.

We should either defend our borders, just like any other country, or take over Mexico, get rid of that crooked Fox and make the US larger. It would be best for both of us.

If we are going to have a border, a fence could be built in a relatively short time and gaurded much easier.

If we take in Mexico, then everyone could benifit from it. It would take a while to clean it up, but it could be done.

Fabs, we got alot of Mexicans around here. There are some big Cargill turkey plants around the area, Butterball, and they bring them in because they will do the dirty work cheap.

Cargill will give them, or let them know where they can get, fake SSNs and drivers license. I have seen up to 6 people with the same Social Security Number. Its sad. Then, they get in trouble for something relatively minor and cry prejudice when none of us will post bond for them. Reason is, they run almost every time. It dont take writing many checks to the court to figger that out. They cant understand that they will most likely get probation or a short jail sentence and be done. They think its like Mexico and they will be in jail forever. And you cant convince them otherwise, they dont trust Americans.

Its a mess. A real mess.

Andy

[Hawkeye6]

"Seems to me if it's OK for a moderator to post an "Off Topic" thread (i.e. 'nothing to do with hunting , shooting and the outdoors'), then any other member ought to be able to do so also! I know this will probably get me removed from Huntchat , but you moderators are becoming a bunch of hypocrites."

Actually, it has quite a bit to do with hunting, shooting and the outdoors.

Do some research on our Southern Border area. Read the artilces. Think about it. This wave of illegal immigration is trashing the great outdoors in many areas of Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The National Parks and forests along the border with Mexico are being destroyed by the constant trek North of illegal immigrants.

In many areas, it does not appear to be wise to travel the backcountry alone or in small groups due to the drug smugglers and human smugglers. Try hunting or camping or fishing under those circumstances.

Also, as Rocky noted, there are plenty of police oriented sites out there for folks who want cop stuff. I know of no sites focused on the problems of illegal immigration and how it might have an impact on our nation's hunting, outdoors and gun culture.

No hypocracy here.

[Hawkeye6]

Fabs:

"I agree completely with securing our border. I wonder how hard it would be to build a great wall of Mexico to stop this stuff. Make them tunnel and use infrared to find them, if that is possible. "

I hear you, but I'm not sure a wall would work. It didn't back in Hadrian's time. The Great Wall of China does not appear to have been sparklingly effective. The Maginot Line, well, enough said there. Then we have the Iron Curtain and the Berlin Wall.

I guess all of these probalby worked to an extent and made things more difficult for crossing some line. I guess I'd rather not see the wall, but maybe there isn;t analternative. I guess I'd like to see a lot more human patrols of the region. And I don;t see why an organized volunteer effort cna't be part of it.

H.

[fabsroman]

Hawkeye,

I am not just saying we should build the Great Wall of Mexico, but we should man it and have machine guns every two hundred to three hundred yards. I view the Southern invasion just as I would an invasion by Germany in World War II on the East Coast or Japan on the West Coast. Difference being the Germans and Japanese would try to take over right away and you would know their intentions. With the Southern Invasion, we close our eyes thinking that we won't be taken over by them, but they are doing it over time. Kind of like a really long siege on the US with the citizens not even knowing about it. Can you imagine what the history books will read later in the century.

Andy,

I have a client from Venezuela, and while he is legal and he has started a business here, he has gotten in some trouble. Ultimately, he ended up with 30 days in jail from a VOP on a DUI, but that was after he had 3 incidents of violence and one of driving on a suspended license within a year of his probation. He told me that if he didn't have two kids and his mother here, he would go back to his country. Another thing that got me thinking was that the Judge, in one of the first things I represented him on, asked him if he had gotten into any trouble in South America and the Judge made him take the oath before answering the question. He also asked if he had gotten into any trouble while he was in California (i.e., before he came to Maryland) because I hadn't done a background check in that state.

While in Maryland, he had a driving on suspended in 2001 and a Disorderly Conduct in 1993. Yet, he thinks the system is out to get him.

He ignores me when I tell him that he has to have worker's comp insurance for his 10 employees because he doesn't want to pay the $12,000 a year and he ignored me for quite a while when I told him that he needed insurance on his vehicles. Ultimately, that lack of motor vehicle insurance has gotten him into a ton of trouble. He just does whatever he wants to and barely even cares about the laws. Of course, I know plenty of second and third generation Americans that do the same thing, but they aren't going to leave the country as soon as they get into a little bit of trouble.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
I agree completely with securing our border. I wonder how hard it would be to build a great wall of Mexico to stop this stuff. Make them tunnel and use infrared to find them, if that is possible.

There was one quote in there that I like, but it scares me. "We are being invaded."

If another country were to try and take over the US by force, we would fight them. What we have is Central America and South America trying to take over the US. What will happen when the majority of the US is hispanic? Will those hispanics being assimilated into the melting pot called the United States of America, or will they try to turn this into the United States of South America? If they are the majority, they will control the Presidency and a good portion of the House and Senate.

I have some hispanic clients, and what really bothers me is that they don't have the same type of love for this country as my parents, aunts and uncles do. My dad has gotten into fights with a few Italian immigrants that talked bad about this country, wherein he told them to go back to Italy if they didn't like it here. The hispanics I deal with would much rather be back home than here. The only reason they are here is because there is no money or food back home. I guess I wouldn't mind being someplace where I didn't have to work at all.

On top of that, I have been to a c ouple of bail hearings and some criminal trials lately and it seems that the majority of the criminals are hispanic in Montgomery County, Maryland. Then again, if they happen to be the majority they would be the majority of criminals too. However, I do not know if they are the majority population wise in this county.

While I am all for immigration, I think it is time we have some seriously controlled immigration. Like Ellis Island of old, where the legal ones sign in and the illegal ones go back.

This country cannot continue to take all the poor, tired, and huddled masses of the Earth and support them, especially when they do not want to be here in the first place.

fabs

in reference to your use of the term "melting pot". as a first generation american i can remember my grandfather cringing at the use of that term. he told me, " son, remember, in a melting pot the scum rises to the top." at the time i was small and did not fully grasp what he meant but i found out a few years later.

has any body ever sat down and thought about how much money the nba and nfl donate to the muslim terrorists through their player donations to their holy, peaceful mosques? my patootie. thanks to those people we can no longer celebrate christmas with manger scenes etc. they are against christianity, and their in the minority so they win.

time for pepcid ac again.:mad:

[Skinny Shooter]

Gotcha, I sent ya a PM :)

[PJgunner]

sa one whjo lived within 52 miles of the Mexican Border, let me give you an idea of what it is like down here. We buy our groceries at the local Walmart because they are the least expensive across the board. Almost makes me wish I hadn't retired. At least when I was working, I could afford the prices as Safeway et al. :(
On Valentines day this year, I snuck down to Wally World to get some flowers for my wife. Only one bundle had any roses in it. I picked it up and this Mexican woman grabbed them from my hand and told me they were hers. When I protested, I was looking at fighting ten angry Mexicans all wanting a piece of me. And I even wasn't the one in the wrong.
My wife and I like to go to a small lake near the border called Pena Blanca and fish. Well, the fishing ain't all that good and are so contaminated with mercury from old mining operations that we just do catch and release. The road to the lake is at times within a mile of the border. More than once we've had "coyotes" point guns at us as we were going to or from the lake. We don't go anymore unless I am heavily armed, which means a 1911 45 on my hip, my AR-15 and plenty of spare magazines and my wife has her 9mm and M-1 carbine with plenty of ammo.
Probably the best thing would be to find another lake to go to.
About four months ago, a bowhuinter camped out about 50 miles east of Tucson was found shot to death, apparently while he slept. Probably a passing drug smuggler saw his camp and killed him. The scary thing is I draw my deer tag this year in the same area where he was killed. Tags are hard to draw here, but my wife wants me to not go, and I'm inclined to listen to her.
I don't think Bush and the Republicans want to do a damn thing about the illegal immigrants. After all, probably Bush's rich buddies are trhe ones hiring them and Bush certianly would not want to take their cheap labor away. Neither would the Republicans in the Congress. After all, we do have the best government big business can buy. :rolleyes:
As to Vincente Fox? Hell, he wrote a comic book giving instructions on how to get into the U.S. without getting caught. :mad:
If you are an Anglo in either Tucson or Phoenix, guess what, you are the minority.
If I could afford to sell out and get the hell out of here, I'd be moving so fast you'd see a vapor trail.
Before anyone feels that I might be anti-Hispanic, my wife is Hispanic and Apache Indian and I consider her my most prized soul mate. Most of my neighbors are Hispanic, but they're here legally and most are citizens.
has anyone noticed, BTW, that the media just about never says ILLEGAL ALIENS anymore, but calls them UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS? What's with that? Maybe it's because calling the illegal says they are criminals and that would not be politically correct. We wouldn't want to hurt those criminals feelings, after all they're so deprived in their home country. Who cares?
:rolleyes: :mad:
Paul B.

[Andy L]

Paul,
Where you from? I have spent quite a little time the last few years just north of Douglas. Three weeks this year, maybe a bit more. Its a different world, no doubt....

Andy

[fabsroman]

Good point Billy D.

PJ,

Bush isn't doing anything about the illegal immigrants, but do you seriously think the democrats would do anything? It just might be that the solution isn't quite that easy. I am sure that there are a ton of politics involved which deal with the Latin American countries.

What I do not understand is why barely anything is made in Central America or South America. If these people are willing to work for so cheap in the US, why can't we pay them in their own country. Why are textile factories in Sri Lanka, Malaysia, Vietnam and China, but I barely see anything coming from Mexico, Venezuela, etc. I would think that the transportation cost would be much lower for the corporation. One such corporation that springs to mind is Columbia. I have a lot of their gear and it is mostly made in Asia.

We are making Iraq a better place to live, so why can't we do that in these other countries around us? That way, they will want to stay where they are.

I have also tossed around taking over Mexico, and moving on after we get that under control. We need a border between us and the rest of Central America that is as tiny as possible, thereby allowing it to be monitored as easily as possible.

Several hundred years ago, the US had no problem taking land from the Indians and the Mexicans and minding its own business. Now, we are helping everybody and their mother abroad, having or soldiers killed, our economic resources wasted, and receiving nothing in return. Why is this?

[Lilred]

Billy....that's the best sayin I've heard in a good while!
And dam straight iffin that aint the truth!
:D

[Hawkeye6]

Fabs:

Fox News did a short piece on this group tonight.

http://www.weneedafence.com/

Thought you might enjoy it.

H

[fabsroman]

That article was pretty good.

The fence that they describe sounds pretty awesome and extremely tough to tunnel under if it has a big ditch in it. With a road built between the fence, you would probably only need manned outposts every 30 or so miles because the response time would be pretty decent, at least I think it would be.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by Lilred
Billy....that's the best sayin I've heard in a good while!
And dam straight iffin that aint the truth!
:D

thank you kind lady, but like i said all the credit goes to my grandfather.

[BILLY D.]

just a passing thought here, but why don't they use aircraft with side looking heat seeking radar? i was at this point going to suggest the gunships we utilized in 'nam. then i remembered we left most of them over there.

but we have bases close to the border in kalifornia, arizona, new mexico and texas. doing a thumbnail measurement of the border it is approximately 1000 miles long. taking the four states mentioned as operating locations, each base wuold have to patrol about 250 miles of border. not an insurmountable task.

at present i have no idea what aircraft we could use, i know there are some c-130's left but in my opinion the are too big and would not be cost effective. that big an aircraft would be a waste.

i would not even submit a cost estimate on a fence on the border, there would be beau coup price overuns to begin with and then some moron in washington would hire illegals to build it. doesn't sound very secure to me. the only reason the berlin wall worked somewhat was because they had guards there with shoot to kill orders. we couldn't do that because it's not politically correct. besides that the democrats need the votes. i think we should have minefields set up but that is not politically correct either. those are really cheap. why do i feel like princess di is going to throw a lightning bolt at me?:eek:

why is it we the electorate can have ideas and everyone in washington is suffering from paralysis.

don't get me wrong i don't think my ideas are the best ones but at least i'm trying. those boneheads in dc just sit there on their hands. meanwhile the problem grows and grows.