Deer Rifle for Police Sniper

[Aim to maim]

A buddy of mine who is an extensively trained and proficient police department designated SWAT sniper has recently discovered deer hunting and is hooked on it. It has not taken him long to realize that his department issue heavy barrel Remington 700, while highly effective, is a bit cumbersome and heavy.

He is contemplating the purchase of his own bolt action rifle, probably in 30-06, .270 or .308. As is the case with most police officers, he is not rich, so cost is an object. Currently in the running are a Remington 710/ Bushnell scope package for $219 and a Mossberg ATR for $289 (both NIB).

I realize, as does he, that the Bushnell scope in question is essentially a throwaway. I have seen the Remington 710 bashed extensively on this and other sights, but very few specifics (especially based on user experience) as to why it is so universally despised.

As for the Mossberg, the prospective buyer duck hunts with a Mossberg shotgun and carries another one in his police vehicle. He is impressed with the reliability and durability of both of them. He is a bit cautious, however, because the ATR rifle could be considered a new and unproven product.

I know, as does he, that a Remington 700 is certainly superior to the Remington 710 and probably to the Mossberg ATR, but I’d be interested in some specific reasons why, FOR THE PURPOSE OF SHOOTING WHITETAIL DEER AT 50 TO 200 YARDS , the Remington 700 is worth the premium price.

Feel free to suggest alternatives, and if you are compelled to respond that one or the other is a piece of $&*@ , please elaborate with some specific information.

[ksubuck]

Wally-World used to have some pretty good starter rifles. Maybe a Savage 110 or Remington 700 ADL would be available. Both used to come with lesser scopes in a package deal. I'd prefer the Savage as I and several friends have had good luck with them. Consider both way ahead of the 710. Don't have any experience with the Mossberg. He'll probably need to put some more reliable glass on either one though.

[TreeDoc]

I have had 2 experiences with the 710. The first was simply handling it and studying the construction and quality. My impression is "What a POS!" I don't see how someone would make the choice of a 710 over a used 700 BDL or the less expensive ADL especially after having competently handling a finer quality long gun like your friend has. Just my opinion there.

Second experience was having a regular shooter at my IDPA club that had, quite literally, half of his face peeled off when his 710 exploded due to an overcharged reload. Any gun could have potentially done that but the crux of this issue was that the charge pressure when duplicated would NOT have discumbobulated a standard 700 but the 710 is built to slightly lessor pressure standards. This is what I was told first hand by this gentleman who was quite knowledgeable as to the testing that was done in replicating his nearly grave mistake. Depending on what side of his face you look at, he looks like 2 different people thanks to the surgeries and scars.

Buy once, buy something decent from a used rack.

[Jack]

American Rifeman magazine reviewed the Mossberg ATR recently, and gave it a quite good review.
Mossberg has a reputation ( well earned, IMO) for building good rugged stuff, maybe not pretty, but a good value.
I agree about the 'package' scopes being not very useful, to say the least.
The used racks would be a good place to look for a Model 70 Winchester, remington 700, or Savage 110- all good rifles.

[fabsroman]

Personally, I have always believed in buying the best possible gun you can afford even if it means you have to stretch yourself a little. Then, use that gun until you or it wears out or there is a REAL reason to buy something BETTER.

I bought my Ruger MKII .300 Win Mag about 13 years ago and it is still my go to rifle for big game hunting. I was pretty poor back then since I just graduated college, but I shelled out something like $800 for the gun and Burris Signature series 3-12x scope.

When I bought my SBE, I had to borrow the money from my dad and it was painful paying the $1,050 for it. That was 8 seasons ago and I killed 2 deer, 50+ doves, and a goose. The goose being this very morning.

If he is going to replace the scope, why even bother looking at a package deal? Is the package deal actually cheaper than buying the rifle by itself?

[Tall Shadow]

I would add my recommendations for both the Savage 110 or just about any of the Rugers.

The second option, like was suggested above, for the used Remington 700 is a good one also. Provided either the history of the rifle is known, or the gun is throughly looked over/inspected by a good gunsmith.

The third option would be to purchase an old Mauser rifle or action, and have a good gunsmith build him a custom rifle. This can be a good option, but costs can get out of hand quickly if you are not careful!

I hope that he finds something that suits his needs. I'm sure that with your help that will happen!

Tall Shadow

P.S. : Even though most Police/LEO departments refer to his type of shooters as "Snipers"....They are more correctly "Sharpshooters".

A Sniper is a highly trained soldier that uses terrain/gear/skills to kill enemy combatants & demoralize the enemy. Usually at greatly varying distances (80-1700+ yards) and usually by themselves or with only 1 other person(spotter/guard).

A Sharpshooter is a person who has been trained (but less so that the sniper) to engage targets/people, only under order from their superior(s). Usually at ranges less than 100 yards, and in the company of his/her unit.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by Tall Shadow
P.S. : Even though most Police/LEO departments refer to his type of shooters as "Snipers"....They are more correctly "Sharpshooters".

A Sniper is a highly trained soldier that uses terrain/gear/skills to kill enemy combatants & demoralize the enemy. Usually at greatly varying distances (80-1700+ yards) and usually by themselves or with only 1 other person(spotter/guard).

A Sharpshooter is a person who has been trained (but less so that the sniper) to engage targets/people, only under order from their superior(s). Usually at ranges less than 100 yards, and in the company of his/her unit.

Tall Shadow,

I was aware of the distinction and debated which term to use when I made the original post. I assumed (probably incorrectly) that some might not be aware of the sharpshooter designation. Thanks for providing precise definitions and for your input.

Thanks to all others who replied. Your posts pretty well back up my feelings on the matter, but I wanted some reinforcement for my perceptions, since I've had no personal experience with the Mossberg or the 710.

[jmarriott]

[B]his department issue heavy barrel Remington 700, while highly effective, is a bit cumbersome and heavy[B]

Why not look at the used racks until you get the best rifle for the price. So many good rifles for sale and do what he wants for deer. I don't think he really wants a bolt action rifle anyways since he was conserned on weight and being comfortable to hunt with.

I saw a Marlin 36 30/30 225 dollars at the last show and asked the guy why he was selling it. Said Indiana is a deer slug state abd he had not used it in several years. Almost bough it myself but was 75 short. Looked Like the day it was brought out of the box. Get a pep sight or cheap red dot and your set.

The single shot H&R rifles are cheap and light and now the factory will sell extra barrels and fix the trigger for free on them.

There were several Bolt action rifles for sale in the 300 to 400 range that far outshined the 710/bushnell combo. Not 219 but well afordable for deer hunting and they had scopes and nice slings, Several 30-06 seemed to pop up on the shelves this year maybe being replaced with Ultra/short mags.

Sparten rifles are remmingtons other cheap line and might be worth taking a look at but IMHO the 710 can stay on the dealers shelf. I am not a 710 fan.

[Montana Cowboy]

Howdy Aim to Maim
I myself think that Savage is underated by a lot of folks,they are a good accurate rifle for the money. That said, you might take a look at the Remington 788. They are no longer made by Remington. A 788 is no beauty queen but they do have a reputation for accuracy. Gun show would be your best bet. As for a scope I prefer a Leupold and they too can be bought at gun shows for a good price if you look around. Don't worry about a warranty as Leupold stands behind their scopes new or used. MC

[Skyline]

Well, as a former police officer and former SWAT member (we called them ERT in the olden days 'Emergency Response Team'), I am surprised he doesn't want the Model 700. Going to another make and model, where the feel, safety, etc will be different is breaking from routine.

Ya, the pay isn't great as a cop but I am sure he can scrape up enough to buy a sporter weight model of the 700. God knows there are lots of different models and millions of used ones out there.

[Mil Dot]

I'd have to agree w/ Skyline.
Buying something that is already familiar to him in operation has to carry some weight in his decision. Being a sharpshooter, I have to assume, he must run considerable rounds through his dept issued weapon and would be comfortable with it's operation.
That being said the same would or could be said of the caliber if he shoots 308 through his department gun he'd have some basic feel for drop at various distances. Regardless, he would have less time involved getting used to his new weapon and potentially less rounds to get to where he wants to be saving $ to get there.

You said his issue weapon was is a Rem 700, I wouldn't expect that he'd be happy with something less.

I may be mistaken but isn't the 710 equipped with the etronix trigger? An electronic trigger would be enough for me not to purchase that gun. The battery light comes on with a 12pt standing in front of you.

Mossberg, I've only shot their shotgun. If their rifles are anywhere
near the weight of the shotgun you might as well carry your tactical rifle ... it may be lighter.

I'd personally lean towards the 700 ADL PKG and plan on scraping the scope. Then add a Swift scope to hold your price down. JMHO good luck.

Mil Dot

[bulletpusher]

Just for your information.

The Remington 710 combo package is not the worst you can get, but I'm not sure what would be worse.

You guys have got it wrong with the 710. Thats the package where you get the rifle with the Bushnell scope. The object in this case is that you keep the scope and throw the rifle away. Its a better value that way.

Of course you could just buy Ruger, Winchester, Savage or even the Wobbley Remington new or used and not have to purchase another weapon in a lifetime.

New or used one of the above 4 will be mucho, more, better, gooder than a 710, no matter what the condition.

Bulletpusher "BBRSSC #1"

[Aim to maim]

He ended up with the Mossberg ATR in 30-06 and a Burris 3X-9X (not sure which model). Perhaps not exactly what some of us would have selected in the choice of rifle manufacturer, but I'm confident he'll do very well with the combo.

Thanks to all for your replies.

[WyoShooter]

Why not hunt with his issue weapon? If he packs it and uses it hunting it could make him even more profficiant with it on the job. There is nothing like being completely familiar with your weapon. That's a good thing. If he's in good shape it won't hinder him at all.

A few years ago I ran into retired Marine Corps Major, Jim Land while antelope hunting here in Wyoming. For those who don't know who Major Land is, he aided in starting the sniper program and was one of Carlos Hathcock's sniper team captain's in Viet Nam.
He said he uses the same rifle for deer and elk that he was using on antelope. I asked to see what he was shooting and it didn't surprise me to see him pull out a Marine Corps issue M40A-1 with a Redfield issue scope. He said "It always worked for me in Viet Nam and I didn't see the need to change."
I can understand that.
We all got a good laugh when he said, "You know what the difference between shooting an antelope and shooting a VC is?"
"An antelope stands on four legs.":D

You won't hear that one on the History Channel. ;)

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by WyoShooter
Why not hunt with his issue weapon? If he packs it and uses it hunting it could make him even more profficiant with it on the job. There is nothing like being completely familiar with your weapon. That's a good thing. If he's in good shape it won't hinder him at all.


A valid question. The guy is in awesome shape and could probably carry a Barrett 50BMG without difficulty if he really wanted to. However, he realizes that no matter how careful one is and no matter how well-mounted the optics, the rigors of hunting significantly increase the chance of disturbing the zero on his issue rifle. He did use it to take his first deer, but did not want to press his luck any further.

He does not want to find himself in the situation of accidentally bumping the issue rifle during a hunt and then getting called out to a deadly force situation before being able to confirm zero. The chances of that happening are small, but being a conscientious professional, he prefers to keep the odds in his favor to the greatest extent possible.

[fabsroman]

At first, I was wondering why he couldn't take his issued rifle out in the woods, but seeing as it is a 50 BMG, I wouldn't take it either, the zeroing issue aside.

I hope everything works out for this guy.

What did the deer look like that he hit with the 50?

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by fabsroman
At first, I was wondering why he couldn't take his issued rifle out in the woods, but seeing as it is a 50 BMG, I wouldn't take it either, the zeroing issue aside.

I hope everything works out for this guy.

What did the deer look like that he hit with the 50?

Quote from my opening post:
"It has not taken him long to realize that his department issue heavy-barrel Remington 700, while highly effective, is a bit cumbersome and heavy."

The reference to the hypothetical Barrett was intended to confirm that the officer is in good physical condition (see previous post by WyoShooter).

We'll have to wait for someone else to fill us in on terminal ballistics of the 50BMG on deer.

Sorry for any confusion.
:confused:

[fabsroman]

I apologize. When I posted the previous post, I read your post incorrectly (i.e., he could probably carry a .50 BMG if he had too, meaning that he could carry a Remington 700 easily), and I think I had the Remington 700 in the back of my mind, but chose to be lazy and not re-read the entire thread. Glad you cleared up the confusion.

I try to keep my rifles as zeroed as possible, but it always seems as though they need some sighting in before the deer season starts. I would imagine that when it is a life and death matter, there would be no fooling around with the issue rifle. Kind of like a surgeon using his scalpel to skin a deer and then taking it back into the operating room.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by fabsroman

I try to keep my rifles as zeroed as possible, but it always seems as though they need some sighting in before the deer season starts. I would imagine that when it is a life and death matter, there would be no fooling around with the issue rifle. Kind of like a surgeon using his scalpel to skin a deer and then taking it back into the operating room.

Excellent analogy.:D