5 OUT of 6 Dead!!!!!! [Archive]

Wolvie

01-21-2006, 09:39 AM

Hello, I am writting to whom it ALL should concern,
BUT DOESN`T !!!!

I have a 3.5 yr old Chihuahua,who was pregnant,and she started going into labor on 1.19.06 Thursday @ approx.1:30 pm.
My Girlfriend and I started seeing that she(LucyJean),was going to have problems delivering her pups.
So we started calling vets around our area,and even ones farther.
I say farther ones,because everyone of them we called wanted anywhere from $500.00 to $1800.00 to help us with our little lucy,...

We don`t have that kind of money,and everyone of those vets were told that,and we pleaded to ALL of them to allow us to bring a couple hundred $ and bill us for the rest.
I found one who was willing to do just that,So we prepared Lucy for a 1.5 hr trip.Before we could even get out the door,the Vets Dr. called my cell phone,and told us he was leaving,and to take Lucy to Med-Vet,and that they could help us as he would,and that they were open 24 hrs.
We called the "Med-Vet place.and they said they couldn`t help unless we had $75.00,office visit,and $100 + for x-rays,and in addition $1800.00 to perform a C-section on Lucy,which would have to be paid when Lucy would be ready to be picked up with her pups.
As this was the same story for every vet,clinic,and anyone else in that field of work,The Almighty DOLLAR,was the only thing that they cared about.Even though we were telling them that Lucy was hemerging,and that green like substances were coming out of her (area part),they said basically "Show them the Money"!!and they would help us.

We were able to finally raise as much money as possible,around $900.00,but that probly isn`t going to be enough.And my girlfriend was able to find a place in Circleville Ohio,that took Lucy in for $100.00 and performed the C-section,and was able to save 2 out of 6 puppys,A female and a male.
The male died 3 hours later in my hands,as he took his last gasp of air.I named him "Wolvie" and the female "Destiny Rae".
Destiny Rae is so far doing well,We have to feed her every 2 hours,with a syringe and tube until she is able to feed on her own,and or consume,puppy food.Which will be around 8 to 10 weeks from now.
Lucy is still in the vet hospital,recovering.
LucyJean will not be able to take care of DestinyRae,and the vet is fearful that she may try to hurt Destiny Rae if she is left alone with her.So my girlfriend will have to stay with Destiny Rae on a 24 hr basis/7days a wk.
All this because area vets,have NO HUMANE thoughts for animals,only thoughts of MONEY.
1 out of 6 lived,that why we called the last one "DESTINY",the "Rae" part was for my sister who was here to help my girlfriend.
No One else would,until it was too late.

The Humane Society should look into all vets,and ask them how they can sleep at night knowing that they only care about the Almighty $$$$ !!!!
It was wrong VERY wrong and unfair to these puppys,and LucyJean and ourselves to have to go through such an ordeal.
I have pics of "Wolvie,and "Destiny Rae",..together before Wolvie took his last breathe.Destiny is facing you,and Wolvie has his back to you.There are 3 pics below.
So if this were you,would you have helped to save all the pups,or thought of the Almighty Dollar?!!!!!

DestinyRae is on the left, And Wolvie is on the right

I hope that this will help make an impact on your hearts and not your wallets.

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN`

Wolvie

01-21-2006, 09:42 AM

Here is another pic of the pups together:...................

Skyline

01-21-2006, 10:51 AM

Well it is a sad story but not shocking. Small animal vets are notoriously over priced and prey upon the fact that most people will spend whatever it takes to save their pet house dog or cat. The fees you quoted are insane..........why don't you write a letter of complaint to the Vet association and list the vets that refused to help you and the fees they quoted.

As a side note, I have always found that country vets, who deal mostly with livestock are a lot more reasonable to deal with and their prices are better. They know that a rancher will tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine if they tried to charge outrageous fees like the city small animal vets.

gspsonny03

01-21-2006, 12:42 PM

Wolvie I agree, I'm very disappointed about this story, but I'm not surprised. It's too bad that the Vet clinics across the country have to be ruled by the $$$$. but that's the way it is. I've often wondered about this. I have watched on TV that show about the animal cops where if you don't take care of your animals they can take them and either fine you or put you in jail. Well I think they really should look into some of these places and treat them the same way. When a person is really trying to take care of his animal and he can't get any help from the Vets or can't afford too then there is a problem. But then they come back at you and say well if you can't afford to take care of them then you shouldn't own them and there is a bit of truth in this, but it's getting to the point where you can't afford to own much of anything.
I'm truly sorry about your loss.

Wolvie

01-21-2006, 09:20 PM

NOT TO MY FACE anyways,........
I can afford to feed,and liecense and mostly any and everything else for my pets.
As well as my 5 childern,and my girlfriend,and myself,...
BUT,...NO ONE can afford a crook!!!!
I dont give 2 S _ _ _ S !!!!about any of these A Holes,
I have lost all my sanity when it comes to PETA,the HUMANE SOCIETY,and vets in any part of the world,state or city and or county!!!!

5 lives,living beings died due to money grubbing ARSES,.....
That to me is nothing more then pure open MURDER!!!!!

I called at least,50 vets in my area and those that were not in my area,....a few were 50 miles away,....some were just 2 or 5 miles away.I could have had my LucyJean to any of them and she wouldnt have had to suffer and her pups would have lived,at least their chances would have been better.
The only truth here is that vets,PETA,and the Humane Society,..all suck!!!! and are liers!
Let one of them approach me anywhere! their membership will be reduced,.........

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

PJgunner

01-22-2006, 06:36 PM

Wolvie. I feel your pain and hope for the best for you pet and the surviving pup. I also realize the vet's side as well. My daughter has been a vet tech since she was 14, started out cleaning cages and is now both a certified and licensed vet tech. You cannot imagine how many people have brought sick or injured pets in and then not been able to pay the bills. It's a fact that it costs more for an animal at the vets than it does for you to be in the hospital.
We have two dogs right now, a Boston Terrier and a Pug. Both animals were rescue dogs. The Bostom was found at the side of a Houston Texas freeway after being clipped by a car. The dog was brought in to the vet hospital where my doughter worked and was totally taken care care of by the staff, most chipping in towards the dog's care. After seveal months of trying to locate the dog's owners, my daughter let me know about him. We'd ben looking for a Bostom Terrier for some time, but the prices locally were a bit more that we thought reasonable. We got him for the cost of air freighting him to Tucson.
About a year later, some people took their Pug to that same vet and when they got done, after all the tests, care etc, the bill was a bit over $8,000. The people couldn't pay, so left the vet stuck with a dog and no money. Unfortunately, this happens quite frequently and all the vet can do is try to either sue the people or absorb the costs. Well, sueing didn't work as they had nothing to begin with, so it was eat the costs. We got him as well for the cost of air freight.
My point being, what is the level of deadbeats costing vets in your area so much money that they have to insist on payment first?
I'm not taking their side on this, just bringing up facts that some seem to want to ignore. In fact, what does piss me off is the fact that with $900 earnest money, they still refused. I think that I would not only complain to any veterenary association that will listen, but turn every damn one of them into the Better Business Bureau, although you's probably have better success pissing up a rope.
If the pups that dies had monetary value, yuou might even be able to seek legal action, but on that, I don't know.
Paul B.

huntingvet

01-22-2006, 06:54 PM

Wolvie,

I am very sorry for your loss and I feel for you. I know there is nothing I can say or do that can ease your pain. I hope your Chihuahua is doing better and that she will learn to enjoy the company of her puppy.

I cannot justify the actions of the veterinarians you contacted but I think its important to let your sorrow settle before aiming your anger at anybody or more importantly at a whole profession.

Someone earlier was right when they said veterinarians have an obligation to relieve animal suffering. It is in our oath the day we graduate from veterinary school.

Unfortunately, this whole situation should not have happened. I have many clients that contemplate breeding their pet. I clearly advise them of the potential risks, the costs associated with treating those complications, their options should complications develop and more importantly how to prevent them. This conversation happens the first time I see that 6 week old puppy.

For example, all my clients know that an intact female dog has higher chances of unwanted pregnancy, higher risks of developing breast cancers, and higher risks of uterine infections. If a pet gets pregnant, unfortunately not all whelpings occur as mother nature intends. There are medications that can help a pet have a more successful delivery but they don't solve all complications. At times, cesarean sections are needed. If done appropriately to current standards of care, it is costly - not just to you the pet owner, but also to the veterinarian, his business, and in a way your pet (she's the one that goes through the pain). My clients are aware that cesarean sections aren't cheap and to save up for that potential or invest in pet health insurance. Alternatively, some hospitals offer credit plans either through the hospital directly or through an outside credit agency for unplanned emergency expenses. The bottom line is these things should be well thought of months if not years before the night your pet gives birth. Your veterinarian owes it to you to inform you of this that far in advance.

I understand your frustration in believing that the veterinarians you encountered were more concerned about you paying them than they were about the health and comfort of your pet. But, let's play the devil's advocate. Would you have felt differently about the first veterinarian you called that turned you away if you knew that he was about ready to go bankrupt because his hospital was not a profitable business? Or that he was investing the very last penny he had into his own personal family matters? Now, I know not every one of those vets you talked with that night have circumstances like that but it would make me think.

As a whole, I think the veterinary profession is a great profession full of very caring people. We give up our time, large chunks of our life, significant financial and emotional investment, and at time sacrifice time with our families to be a part of what I think is a noble profession.

I hope your future veterinarian re-earns your trust in our profession.

Again, sorry for you loss and best of luck to you and your pets.

Wolvie

01-23-2006, 10:28 AM

1ST OFF,..........
I had every intention of paying any amount of money to save those pups and ease the suffering of my LucyJean,...
I wouldnt have been able to pay it ALL AT ONCE, ....but i could have paid a sizable chunk,and made weekly pymnts.

Car lots do it,HOSPITALS do it,.it`s called payments!
I would have filled out all the background stuff they would have needed.
My Credit isnt all that gr8,...but I do have a good job,and whether they want to believe wether i would have paid them or not,..that should be an concern,...but not the 1st and foremost,...
When my gf got LucyJean to the vet,...she said they kept pointing out that they need full payment when it was time to p/u Lucyjean,...
Which was over night,...the bill came to $810.00,...we had to pay the day she was taken $75.00 for the office visit & $100.00 for the X-rays,...same as the "Med-Vets Place",...plus the $810.00 we had to come up with over night all together $985.00,..to perform a C-section on a 3lb Chiahuahua,..with 4 dead puppys,..and 1 to follow later ,..and 1 survior.
NOW let`s turn the tables,...
IT`s ur Dog,...you have a job ,..where u clean toilets all day for 10 to 12 hrs a day,....it pays pretty good,....now your dog is pregnant,.same scenerio as mine,....
I am sure that you would be no different then I ,....
Also let`s look at this OATH thing,.....To me all it is ,..........is Words!
Just like wedding vows,...the Pledge of Alligence,..people mostly in part say whatever to achieve a goal,not that they mean anything by it,...they just think it is part of life ,so they say or do whatever.

I have no reasoning for ANYONE that would let a little tiny dog suffer,and also allow,..her 1st liter of pups to basically DIE.!!!!

So Doc,...do u think that 5 out of 6 is good,...when 5 of them are dead!!!!
Also one more tid bit,...they all could have lived if it werent for the money hungry arse holes

I want to apoligize to all of you ,...
I seldom get this way,...those of you who know me or of me know this,....But you all also know i am not one for beating arounf the bush,..especially when it comes to incidents such as these.

Again,..I do apoligize,...to everyone,...Wolvie is just HOWLIN` & Grrrrrrrrrr-in`

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

fabsroman

01-23-2006, 11:37 AM

Okay, comparing hospitals and car lots to vets is like comparing apples to oranges. By law, a hospital must treat somebody with a life threatening illness and then look to them for the money. I am handling a pro bono case right now wherein the guy went to the hospital with no health insurance, no money, and extreme abdominal pain. The bill came to a little over $4,000 and now he has a bunch of attorneys hounding him for the money. They represent the hospital, doctors, and radiologists. Now, if they cannot recover from my guy, they can always try to get payment from Medicaid if he turns out to be too poor. Last I checked, vets couldn't get medicaid for dogs.

As far as car lots and mechanics go, a car lot usually has a security interest in the car and can repossess it when you don't make payments. I guess a vet could offer financing and would then have the ability to perfect a security interest in an animal if he wanted to and then reposses it at a later date, but I doubt that would go over too well and something tells me that pets wouldn't go too high on the resale market. Now, a mechanic has something called a mechanics lien on your car and they do not have to release it until you pay for the repairs. If you don't pay for the repairs, they can auction the car off. Vets don't have this option either.

Like huntingvet, I'll play devil's advocate because that is just what I do. Plus, I am a small business owner myself, which I would assume most vets are too. How many vets go out of business every year? How much does it cost them to perform your specific surgery? Could they make money performing work for others or are they just sitting around doing nothing? If they are extremely busy, why should your pet take precedence over a paying customer (i.e., why should they lose sleep or time with their family?). If vets had a policy, or requirement, of performing services for people that couldn't pay, how many people would come in and say they cannot pay? A lot of people don't pay certain bills just because they don't want to, not because they cannot. They just do not want to sacrifice something to pay the vet. For instance, they want the new shiny car so they use the money for the vet to make the down payment on the car. It is greed all the way around.

I have been in practice on my own right now for a little over three years now and have dealt with all of four people that didn't pay on time. One declared bankruptcy and I lost $2,500 in fees. After several months of non-payment by two others, I reduced the bill by $400 for one client and $100 for another client if they paid me by a certain date and I received the payment. I just drafted a letter last night to another client giving him $120 off a $520 bill if he pays by the end of the month. I am an attorney and the collection process is a pain because I don't get paid anything for the time spent on it.

Imagine if a vet had a ton of accounts receivable. Who would collect it all? How much time would the vet have to spend trying to collect it? Time spent trying to collect outstanding accounts is time lost helping animals and time lost making money. How much would the vet have to spend on attorneys fees? Would the vet have to hire additional office staff to handle the receivables?

Now, instead of blaming the vets in your area for everything, how about looking inward too. Was this a planned pregnancy for your dog? If not, why didn't you have her fixed? If you couldn't afford to get her fixed, why didn't you protect her so that a male dog couldn't get to her during heat. If you couldn't afford to get her fixed, why didn't your girlfriend buy a male dog? If it was planned, why didn't you have the money for any possible complications? If it was planned, did you see a vet before this crisis? Do you have a regular vet for your dog that you have a relationship with?

We all have a limited amount of time on this Earth, and time is a resource that once used, we cannot get back. So, what makes you think that a vet is any different than any of us. What makes you think that a vet should sacrifice some of his time on this Earth to help somebody out and not get anything in return? Have you ever gone into work and said, "Hey Boss, I'm going to work for free this week!!" How many people get away with not paying for their groceries at the check out counter. Do check out clerks justs say, don't worry about being short, we'll just open an account for you and you can pay us when you get it. It used to be that way a long time ago, but very rarely nowadays, especially in the big cities. Now, that doesn't mean there isn't a free lunch called Welfare, but that is an entirely different animal.

I am sure that the majority of vets are just trying to make a living like you and everybody else on this board. Sure, some of them make a ton of money, but I doubt the majority of them do. Same goes for attorneys. Everybody thinks attorneys make a ton of money, but the truth is that on average we graduate law school with close to $100,000 in debt and the average starting salary for an attorney is $40,000. We don't make good money until several years down the road, which is probably 8 to 10 years.

GoodOlBoy

01-23-2006, 12:13 PM

We had a dog that had been hit by a car at my place last year. I was at work, my wife was at home. The vet said we could bring the dog in and he would put it down for $750. I wound up taking the afternoon off and going home to put the dog down myself. This dog had to suffer for two hours waiting for me to get home to shoot it. . . . . Why? Because my wife couldn't do it, and because a vet wanted to make $743.70 profit off of a single shot. Why do I know the amount of profit? Because be buys his supplies from the same place we buy feed, and it costs $6.30 for enough of the drug to put down around nine large dogs. I can understand making a living, I cannot understand doing this to a suffering animal.

I don't get to charge people $750 for a $6 cooling fan when I replace one in thier system. Why? Because nobody would pay it. So it pisses me off when somebody is going to do the same thing to me knowing that most people will pay it to stop an animals suffering.

GoodOlBoy

Skyline

01-23-2006, 12:21 PM

fabsroman,

I basically agree with everything you have said. My only point would be the fees being charged. Now I am sure you know some lawyers that bill $500 an hour and some are only $200.

I have been raising animals for years, dogs, hoses and cattle..... and I have several friends that are veterinarians. The large animal vets do not charge anywhere anywhere near the fees that are charged by small animal vets, despite the fact that their job is more strenuous and time consuming......yes they still make house calls. OK, well farm calls.

If you told a livestock producer that you were going to charge him $1000 to do a C section on an angus cow, he would tell you to go to hell and put a bullet in the cow. Before long the large animal vets wouldn't have much of a practice.

Now, with the small animal vets, who's practices basically revolve around companion animals, they know that most dog and cat onwers are very attached to their animals......they view them as little 4 footed people. They know that most poeple will pay the tab, instead of put a bullet in their beloved pets head. So, they charge outrageous fees......just like some lawyers do that come from prestigious firms but really aren't any better than a chap such as yourself practicing out on your own.

This isn't just my opinion, this is what I have seen personally mind you, but it is also what I have been told by veterinarians themselves.

On the other side of the coin.......I was told many years ago that if you are going to raise animals, some are going to die. It is a sad fact but, losses are inevitable. It just hurts when you have to put something down because you simply can't afford the vet bills.

fabsroman

01-23-2006, 01:09 PM

Skyline,

I don't disagree with what you are saying either. There are bad people in all professions. Same thing goes for mechanics, doctors, car salesmen, etc. As long as there is greed, we will have this problem.

The way the managine partner at the firm I worked at justified his $300 an hour fee compared to my $135 an hour fee at that time was that it took me three hours to accomplish what he could do in an hour. Quite honestly, I think that is a pile of crap. If I knew what I was doing, I could do it just as quickly as he could. I just didn't know as much as him. Since I went on my own, my legal rate has been $125 an hour, but I am being forced to raise it to $135 an hour because everything else has gone up. My malpractice insurance, for both legal and accounting, has increased. My legal research on-line program has gone from $220 a month to $250 a month. My tax software has gone from $200 a year to $500 a year. That is just to name a few things that have increased over the past three years, not to mention the price of gas. Oh yeah, I had to buy a new computer this December because the old one decided to die on me. I also decided to upgrade my backup system.

Luckily, I don't have to pay for rent or a lot of administrative staff.

Now, if all my time were billable, and assuming that I worked a standard 40 hour work week with a two week vacation, my gross would be a little less than $250,000 a year, but I can assure you that I am far from that. I spend a good amount of time on billing, collecting, and marketing.

I am sure that the big city vets have to pay a decent amount of money on rent and administrative salaries. I know my vet has two receptionists and a couple of techs to help out. Just down the street from my vet, I have a client that rents a 1,700 sf place for $5,800 a month, so I know my vet's rent cannot be cheap.

With that said, I can readily see the difference between my vet and another vet that I went to 4 years ago for the ex fiance's dogs. We had two dogs and every time we went to the vet she liked, it cost us around $500. With the vet I take Nitro to, I usually pay less than $100 a visit. Of course, I have found things that my vet charges a ton for too. He was charing me $80 for heartworm pills that I could get from Drs. Foster & Smith for $40. When I asked him to write me a prescription for the pills, he matched the lower price. Same thing happened with some antibiotics I just bought last month for Nitro. He wanted something like $60 for the prescription, but luckily my wife was there and she is a pharmacist. She works at Target and was able to get the same stuff for $20, so we asked for a prescription and the vet gave us the script.

The ex fiance and I used to have three goldens and she was extremely attached to them. However, one was 13 years old and it was diagnosed with kidney failure. The diagnosis cost $400+ dollars and we were told that they could do dialysis for several months and keep the dog alive, but it would cost several thousands of dollars. I made the decision to put the dog down, even though I cried while it was happening and it makes me sad to think about it now. The cremation bill was another $200.

The second dog that the ex fiance bought, before I knew her, had hip dysplasia at 4 months of age, so she elected to have metal plates installed on his hips for $3,500. When we broke up the dog was 7 years old and I had trained him to hunt pretty well. He was also in very good health. Granted, he is nowhere as good as Nitro at hunting. The ex fiance just didn't do any research on the dog's parents (i.e., she bought the dog from a puppy mill).

Yes, there are good and bad vets out there, but if so many came back to Wolvie with the same price, something tells me that there is more involved with the surgery than you and I know about. This reminds me of clients that think it takes me 5 minutes to draft a letter. They don't see the amount of time I spend trying to figure everything out or the actual amount of time it takes to draft the letter. I spent 20 hours drafting something for my dad once, which turned out to be 4 pages in length and I had to review 100 pages of documents to draft it. He thought it only took me an hour to do it.

Edited to add:

Gob,

I just saw your post and could not believe it. I would never go to that vet again the rest of my life. Sad thing is that I don't blame the vet, I kind of blame society. Look at what happened with Nike and the Air Jordans when they first came out. I think the shoes cost somewhere close to $200. Now, are any shoes worth that much? Just don't ask a woman that question!!!!!! However, kid's parents were buying them so that there kid could have the latest and greatest and be cool in school. Kids were getting shot on the street for their Air Jordans and Starter jackets. Was Nike responsible for this? Quite honestly, if you had the time and the money, you should have sent out a mass mailing to a bunch of people around the vet letting them know the story.

GoodOlBoy

01-23-2006, 01:15 PM

Skyline you make a good and effective point. I had no problem putting the dog down, in fact it is not the first one I have had to put down, nor the first cow, horse, chicken, and rabbit (We have raised them all). The problem I had was that somebody had the unmitigated gall to do that to a woman who was watching a dog suffer. I agree if our large animal vet was willing (which he ain't) to work on dogs, etc I am sure prices would be much more reasonable. It's the small animal vets that are out of their freakin minds. I had the same problem when we raised rabbits for production. The large animal vet wouldn't touch them. The small animal vet wanted to treat them like pets. So when we had a disease wiping out one of my pens they wanted $800+ to do lab work on a single bunny. Instead to save the rest of the pens I had to kill and burn close to twenty bunnies, and I STILL didn't know what caused it, if there was a medicine to save the rest of my pens, etc. Luckily it didn't spread beyond the first pen, but we never did find out what it was. I had already accepted the loss of the first pen before I killed them (Thats right killed them you leave the kids in aisa outa this), but haveing a vet unwilling to tell a production rancher what is affecting his livestock for less than $800 is insane. Those twenty bunnies only sell for $5-$10 a piece (Plus another $5-$10 for the hides in winter). I lost at most $200-$400 by wiping them out.

Anyway rant over.

GoodOlBoy

Wolvie

01-23-2006, 02:14 PM

I ,nor did my gf or the dog plan to have any pups,...we have a pug,who isnt even a yr old yet,...and we are ingnorent as to when dogs were able to reproduce,mate etc.
Its because we have only had one dog for awhile,..LucyJean is 3.5 yrs old,..Prince (our Pug),is only about 11mos.
At the time the "Heat",for LucyJean,we didnt know that they were doing anything,
Until one day around Thanksgiving,..I caught him mounting her.
Again I am ignorent,..or was,..I didnt think he was ready to make babies yet.
I was wrong,.....now about what ? 8 wks later or so,...we have problems with LucyJean being sick,because she is so small she couldnt havethe pups naturally,...This is why we called the vets when we did,...She was healthy up until the day she went into labor,...So I will take the blame for being stupid,ignorent,but I`ll be damned if I will take the blame for 5 out of 6 pups HAVING to die due to me not having the money to liquify the vets palms,..no way in HELL will I do that,..the blame lays on the vet (s),who took an oath ,who got into this profession,knowingly,and know what life and death is all about!!
God has the right to take and give,..Doctors,and vets etc. have the right to help,..Going out of buisness?!!! What kind of CHIT is that!!!!,..So u are telling me that a DOG life is no more important than your life or mine!!?!?!?!?!
Because a dog cant talk,bring home a pay check,clean the house,that they are EXPENDABLE!?!!?!?!
Sounds like to me,...human beings need to stop taking life for granted,...cause the day is going to come when they will need help or their wife,or Daughter and or kids and they arent going to get it BECAUSE<...............They didnt plan,or save for the incident that COULD Happen!!!!! B>S>
No One in this world prepares for what life may throw you,..u and I live day to day,..hoping and praying that the next day is a little more brighter and better,....
Let`s also keep this in mine,...a life is a life,...I love my dogs as I do my childern,..and I have both,...I would pay whatever it took to keep them alive and pain free,....I prepare my life as it comes,not as I may think it might happen,...because who can say what life is going to give you,...If that was possible we`d all know what we are doing tomorrow!!!!

Later ALL
SAFE HUNTIN~

TreeDoc

01-23-2006, 04:20 PM

Ignorance is bliss, ain't it?

I'm sorry you suffered the loss and trauma of that situation. I hope I am never in that situation.

I have a nearly 7 year old Black Labrador named Jack. That's him in my avatar to the right. When I made the decision that it was time for me to purchase and train my field dog I took it seriously, very seriously as if we were having a child. One of the things considered was my financial ability to take care of my new family member and that included his medical needs. Today Jack gets whatever treatment he needs....regardless of cost. He's my kid.

Our vet is a friend and customer of mine. I spend a fair amount of time there and all the girls (vet techs, etc) there know and love Jack. In conversation the other day I was talking to one of the girls that does the billing. She told me of the myriad of people that come in for veterinary services, many are emergencies, and wish to make payments on the services performed. The Vet goes to great lengths to provide optimum care for these beloved animals but when it comes time for the bills to be paid the people skip out.

I'm sure, Wolvie, that your intentions to pay are noble but after a a few of those non-payed emergencies you'de start looking a little cross-eyed at these potential clients too. It's a little tough to keep the lights on, pay the vet techs and all the other bills that a office incurs when thousands of dollars of services are walking out the door.

Also, I know of breeders that deal with very small dogs like yours, Yorkies, Huahuas, etc. They ALWAYS have complications of some sort.....ALWAYS!!! They are always in contact with their Vet during the pregnancy and afterwards. It's the responsible way to raise a pet.

There is a saying that I have always been fond of in my years of business and I think of it often to keep myself out of a bad situation whenever possible. You might keep this in mind for the future....

"The lack of planning on your part....does not constitute an emergency on my part."

All the best.

fabsroman

01-23-2006, 06:04 PM

TD,

I like that quote. Would you mind if I use it in my next newsletter.

"The lack of planning on your part, does not constitute an emergency on my part." I can apply that to a lot of my clients.

Wolvie,

Health care for dogs is expensive, but nowhere as expensive as health care for humans. Do I consider a dog's life more important than a human's, depends on the dog and the person involved. Nitro's life would not be more important than my wife's, children's, parents, or siblings. If a vet told me that I could extend Nitro's life for a year for $100,000, I definitely wouldn't do it. Heck, I couldn't do it. Exactly where the line is between can and cannot and could but would not, I have no idea.

Health insurance is now offered for pets, just like it is for humans. However, the health insurance, like the medical procedures, is a lot less expensive. Last I checked, health insurance coverage for humans at the firm I worked at was $3,600 for a single person, $7,000 for a married couple, and $13,000 for a family. That was 4 years ago. I found my own for $2,400, but it ended up being $3,000 by the time I got married and went on my wife's plan.

How much does a C-section for a human cost? I am willing to bet it is a whole bunch more than a C-section for a dog.

At the end of the day, we are condemning a bunch of vets and we don't even know their circumstances.

What kills me is that everybody thinks they are entitled to health care, kind of like people thinking they are entitled to a nice car, a nice home, a nice vacation home, etc. Health care is not a right. Just like you have to earn all the above material items, you have to earn health care too. My grandfather was diagnosed with a heart condition before I was born and he could have lived if he had received treatment. Problem was that he didn't have any health insurance. Instead of selling everything the family owned, he went back to Italy to die. I just visited his grave for the first time 4 1/2 years ago. We are not entitled to the bext health care just because we are alive. If you want state of the art health care, you have to pay state of the art prices. Kind of like buying a state of the art car. There is a huge difference between a Ford Focus and a Ford GT40, both in price and technology.

I took Nitro to the emergency vet the other month, and it cost me close to $300. I don't usually like to part with $300, but that night I was fine with it because at 10:00 on a Sunday night I was able to find somebody to sedate him, stop his bleeding, and remove the cyst. Would vets stay open 24 hours a day if they didn't get this kind of money. I know I wouldn't want to be the one working the graveyard shift. Also, how many emergencies are there really? I was the only person in the waiting room that night, with the exception of another person that came in about 45 minutes later when I was loading Nitro in the truck. Essentially, my $300 had to pay for 45 minutes worth of the receptionist, the vet, the tech, the lights, and the rent and it also had to cover the sedative, the gauze, etc. In the end, it was money well spent because the bleeding stopped.

If we want premium services, we have to pay premium prices. Is a plumber going to come out to your place to fix your leak for the same price at 6:00 on Super Bowl Sunday as he would on Monday morning? I don't think so.

Yes, vets take an oath, but it isn't one of poverty, and I completely agree with TD about a lot of people promising to pay but not paying. Heck, that is why I require a retainer from most of my clients. Every once in a while, I make a mistake and misjudge somebody and then I have to worry about collecting my money. It almost makes me want to require retainers from everybody. I am sure plenty of people have decided not to retain my services because I require payment upfront, but so be it.

Now, if a vet isn;t busy, then he probably would take the patient if there is enough money up front to cover his costs with a payment plan for the remainder, but that is only if he isn't busy taking care of other animals. Same thing goes for me. Why would I take a bunch of pro bono cases when I can barely get enough sleep handling my paying clients. Why would the pro bono case be any more important than my paying clients?

Wolvie

01-23-2006, 07:24 PM

I guess that its just me,...
But I pray that no one else has to endure such a pain.

I had money upfront,..almost more than half,and the vet wasn`t busy,...as for most I called some were finishing up with their last patient.
I know ,.I asked if they were too busy for me to bring LucyJean to them.
And the first thing they said was "Well sir we need at least",..........
Not if they were or weren`t,....just how much it would cost.

I again guess you would have had to be here,.and spoke to them or heard what I did.
As for being prepared (again),...I am as prepared for my pets as i am for my childern,....
But S_ _ T Happens,..S_ _ T that we all sometimes are not prepared for.

Would u be ready tomorrow if you and some buddies went out afield with your dogs,..and sometime into the hunt,..let`s say 2 out of 3 dogs got SHOT by acident,...now you gotta drive 50 miles to the closes vet,....are you prepared to lose your hunting buddy(The Dog),...every minute counts now,...he`s dying,....you still have 20 miles to go,...and you are just sure he or you are going to make it,...it`s 6pm,...damn,......I forgot my wallet,...got my huntin liecense,..but no wallet,...no money,........nothing!!!!

You arrive at the vets,...he is about to leave,...but the doors are still open (not locked),...He sees your pet bleeding,..he knows your pet is really in need of attention,...
Then he says to you,..."I`ll need $500.00 upfront to perform the surgery to save your pet"!

Delema HUH?!!!
Now u ask him to allow you to bring the money to him when he is done with your pet,...He says " I am sorry I can`t do that". " I will need the $500.00 upfront".

DELEMA #2,..wait DELEMA #3,...you still gotta deal with the kids that help you feed ,walk,and love that pet!!!!!

I`ll leave ya with that mental thought,....
and I guarantee,......NONE OF US are prepared for that,...
Unless ya got ESP and know what you and your pets future hold!

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

fabsroman

01-23-2006, 09:03 PM

Wolvie,

Nobody is prepared for everything that life can throw at us. For instance, I am not prepared for a meteor to hit my house tonight, but you can bet that there would be certain things I would do if I didn't die. I have home owner's insurance, and I would hope that the policy covered the damage. Likewise, my wife and I have health insurance, so if we get hurt that would cover us also. The dog would be SOL. We would end up living at my parent's house for a while. Luckily, I have a backup copy of all my files at my parents and they have a computer too, so if I'm not too hurt I could still continue to work. My paper files would be gone, but as long as I have a client list, my financial file, and the documents file, I'll be good to go. Luckily, I don't keep all my life savings in the matress, so I could get some money out of the bank. Now, the birth certificates and such are in the fire proof gun safe on the bottom floor, so hopefully that didn't go up in smoke.

Regarding your scenario, a lot of things would have to go wrong for 2 out of 3 of my dogs to get shot while out hunting because that would mean that somebody was intentionally shooting them or somebody was completely careless. However, I do carry dog and human first aid kits with me in the truck and I usually have my wallet with me. However, if I forgot my wallet, I usually have my cell phone with me. If I am hunting with my dad, which I usually do, he would usually have his wallet on him. Then again, I usually carry some cash on me too. The cash is on a money clip and the wallet has my credit cards and ID. Every morning, before I leave the house, I make sure I have 5 things in my pockets. The left pocket gets the Trident sugar free gum and the Blistex spf15 lip balm and the right pocket gets my money clip, wallet, and cell phone. The car keys go in the left hand coat pocket and the house keys go in the right hand coat pocket. If I'm not wearing a coat, the car keys go in the left hand pants pocket and the house keys are carried out to the car and left in the glove box. I take precautions to avoid things just happening to me. I like to keep $10,000 at the minimum liquid just in case something does come up, and by liquid I mean in a savings/checking account and not in an investment account. My truck has 2 batteries in it too, but that was Ford's doing, I just made sure I got the option. Even if I did make it to the vet without any money or credit cards, I would offer him the truck and my guns as collateral until I could get my wife, mom, dad, brother, or sister to come to the vet with the money.

About the only way I would be really in trouble is if I got shot or if a meteor hit the truck while me, my dad, and the dog were getting in it, but then I don't think anybody could be prepared for that. Kind of like having a stroke, nobody can prepare for that except to make sure that they have all the proper documents in place (e.g., Power of Attorney, Advance Health Care Directive, and Last Will and Testament).

I guess I could be in some sort of trouble if the boat were to tip over in rough, cold water, but I still carry matches, a lighter, and all the other survival stuff in a waterproof box and I keep another set in my hunting bag sans flares and flare gun. While the boat is moving, we always wear life vests and the dog has a neoprene vest on too.

Come to think of it, when I took Nitro to the Emergency Vet, they never once asked for payment up front, they just expected it before we left.

I still like TD's quote, but I thought of a couple more.

If you fail to prepare, prepare to fail.

Chance favors a prepared mind.

Assumption is the mother of all screw ups.

Don't get me wrong, stuff does happen, it is just a matter of how prepared you are when it does happen.

TreeDoc

01-23-2006, 10:30 PM

To answer your question regarding your proposed "dilema," My duck club is 6 hours north of where I live. First, I have a plastic Stanley Tool Box that is exclusively full of First Aid items for my dog. It goes where we go and is never further than a few minutes walk or ATV ride away. I also have the name, number, and addresses of 3 different Vet Hospitals near where I hunt. Another club I hunt post that info on all of our property sheets. Though you won't see me do it here, I can recite to you the credit card number, code, and expiration. I'm covered on the bucks. The only thing I can't control is time which in the instance you cite is precious. I can only do my best in that department, I cannot control God's Will.

I think I am prepared about as best as one could be.

Skyline

01-24-2006, 12:43 AM

OK, look....I guess I have not made myself clear on the vet pricing, nor my position on the canine companions.

My previous posts were trying to establish that the pet industry as a whole, vets included, know that we will pay a premium to save our 'best friend'. Sorry but the cost of buildings, training etc does not factor into the price gouging in many cases.

Given Wolvie's previous quote, which I believe was $1800 for vet help.......now I know there are variables......it's way too high for the average American or Canadian to afford to save their pet canine. Don't give me any of this garbage about factoring in the owning of a dog and my income......no one thinks about having to spend that much for a C section on a dog. Further more if you factored in that kind of a problem.......in most equations the average American or Canadian could only own a goldfish.

Sorry my friends........that is crap! Now I am not saying that Wolvie should not have had a better handle on his dog and the lack of knowledge about breeding taking place at the respective ages.........yes that is true. On the other hand he did try to pay to the best of his ability...........and personally paying $900 on help for a tiny dog like that seems like a genuine interest in the dogs well being.....probably could get more out of them!
Lack of payment is something we all have problems with in all kinds of industries and companies.........not a reason to fail to give medical attention.

If you told most American or Canadian families that they could not have a dog unless they could pay for several thousand dollars of vet bills for a relatively common problem.......many people and dogs would miss out on life long relationships. Kids couldn't have a dog...................don't throw up this crap about spaying and neutering.......we all know it should be done but many can't afford it because 'SOME' of the vets charge too much.

Why can I have a horse sedated and castrated for about a $150 but a cat costs $300 to spay. Why does a C section on a cow......where the vet drives out to the farm, gives the spinal block, performs surgery and has a vet assistant there to help lift the calf out, amd stitches the lady up with several shots of penecillin cost $350 but, an operation on a dog in trouble during birth cost $1500 or more?????

Ya know, when I got my old black lab 'Pepper' as a young man and avid bird hunter.........and then someone told me, well you really don't have a right to have that dog unless you can pay several thousands of dollars in vet bills, incase of an injury, I'd have told them to go to hell!

Give me a brake boys..........yes if you open a practice in Beverley Hills the cats will get the best and the owners can afford it. But, in average America or Canada the average dog and cat owner can just pay the bills and having a pet is a wonderful thing for them. To suggest that they are remis is not acceptable in most cases.

TreeDoc

01-24-2006, 12:57 AM

Perhaps the answer you seek Skyline is quite simply a market driven equation. America and maybe Canada (I don't know) is infatuated with Cats and Dogs. Cats and Dogs do not live with a right to health care and in reality a Dog or Cat is truly a luxury possesion to most though I doubt they would see it that way. If a Vet determines that he needs "X" number of dollars to keep the deisel flowing through the injectors on his offshore fishing vessel or pay for his 30 horse heated barn, who are we to say that he can't charge his set price. Vote with your buck. I have found that there are cheaper Vet Services out there but I choose to stick with my guy because he is a hunter/fisherman and knows sporting dogs. I can rest assured that when my boy has a problem the Vet weighs all the options that are in Jack's best interest for his hunting career.

Skyline

01-24-2006, 01:12 AM

TreeDoc......I am not seeking an answer....after 35 years of raising livestock and 'companion' animals that is what I have seen....over and over again.

You are right....dogs amd cats are a 'luxury item' for many.us and the costs are high. There is no difference between America and Canada (I don't know)......no difference at all.

I do not seek an answer......a market driven answer is excactly what I am talking about. Nothing miraculous to it.

fabsroman

01-24-2006, 02:42 AM

Skyline,

I bet this will sound a little better. How about feel free to own a pet, but be ready to lose that pet when it has a terrible illness unless you are willing to shell out thousands of dollars. If people could swallow that a little better, then maybe the vets wouldn't get to charge what they do. I went through it with that golden retriever. I had the choice to make. Hundreds to thousands of dollars on dialysis, or putting the dog down. The latter choice it was, but I didn't go screaming about how the vet was gouging me and how they are terrible people. If Wolvie really thought his dog was suffering and he wanted to end the suffering, it could be done for very cheap. When I was a kid, a friend of mine put their old and extremely sick German Shepard down by leaving it in the garage with the car running (carbon monoxide poisoning). I was horrified back then because I was only 8 years old, but nowadays that doesn't sound too bad.

I could start crying about how terrible builders are with their inflating the market here and making it so that I can barely afford a townhouse, much less a single family home. How dare they. Truth be told, it isn't the builders, but the sheeple that let the real estate agents and builders run the price up. If we ALL just sat back and said, enough is enough, this crap wouldn't happen, but it does because people succumb to emotions instead of logic. Salesmen prey on emotion, and that is why you have to be willing to walk away from any deal unless it suits you.

I cannot tell you how many people got 5/1 arms thinking they would be moving out from where they live before the new interest rate hit, but they are now stuck there and scared to death to see the new interest rate. How about the poor bastards that got interest only loans. Wait until those principal payments start to kick in in 5 to 8 years. The payment amounts will be much greater than the standard 30 year loan at that point. They wanted the big house, now they have to live with the consequences, but I guess we should be blaming the real estate agents, home builders, and mortgage brokers for twisting their arm.

Right now, I would say that I am prepared to spend $5,000 on Nitro for anything that would extend his life a year or more and give him a good quality of life. Anything more than that, and I would really have to sit down and think about it. In fact, after the emergency trip to the vet, I am seriously thinking about buying insurance.

I truly believe this is the land where you are allowed to choose from amongst a million things. What bugs me is when people decide on something and then cry when it doesn't turn out exactly the way they want it. We all want our cake and we want to eat it too.

I'm sorry, but I just deal with this too often with my clientele. How about the guy that wrecks his friend's motorcycle and then refuses to pay because his friend should have had insurance on the bike? What kind of excuse is that. Blame shifting is what really kills me. On the flip side, my brother wrecked his buddy's motorcycle and wrote his friend an $8,500 check as soon as he got out of the hospital.

Wolvie,

While I think you are partly to blame, I truly, and I mean truly, admire your honesty regarding the facts. Yeah, I think the vets were charging a little much, but if that is what the market will pay, I don't blame them. Likewise, you would want to get all the money you could when you are starting a new job and wouldn't accept anything less than what the market is paying.

Here is another quote, that if everybody adhered to, the world would be a much better place:

"Never lie, even if it means your death."

huntingvet

01-24-2006, 04:09 PM

All,

I think this is a very healthy debate we are having. The common thread in all of our thoughts is that we hold our pets dear to our hearts and want the very best for them.

I practice in southern California where the "market" may be considerably different than othe areas of the country. Out here, a cesarean section during normal daytime/business hours, barring complications can be anywhere from $300-$2000. The end result of the $300 c-section may be identical to the $2000 c-section. The difference lies in the type of service you buy to get you there. For example, a c-section at my place will likely be $800-1200 because I believe x-rays, IV catheter with IV fluids, pain medication, appropriate monitoring during and after surgery, caring for the puppies as well as mom, and using the very best anesthestics is where my comfort level as a practicing veterinarian is. The guy down the road chargin $300 may be just as comfortable anesthestizing your pet with anesthestics that are much cheaper, making an incision, pulling out some puppies, and stitching things back together, then an hour later sending the whole "family" home to heal. There is no right or wrong way.

Care for the dog or cat is different than care for livestock. For example, calves are castrated with a head gate for restraint, the scalpel blade used on the prior 5-7 calves, a small incision and some twisting/pulling, maybe a screwworm bomb spray and a shot of penicillin for good measure. A dog castration at least entails general anesthesia, should include a sterile surgical pack used only on your dog, and I believe pain medication. It is an issue we refer to as standard of care. If a calf had a problem following a typical castration, the veterinarian wouldn't be liable for malpractice because he operated at "the standard of care." However if a veterinarian strapped you dog down to a table, hacked away without anesthesia or at least pain medication, used a used surgical instrument and that dog developed complications, I gaurantee that vet would lose his licence because he didn't perform at the minimum standards known as the "standard of care."

I think its important to realize that pet ownership is not a right. There are minimum standards that all pet owners are held to in our society. They include shelter, food, and minimal medical care (vaccines, treatment for pain/suffering).

Veterinarians don't charge what they do just to pay the rent, pay utilities, cover the cost of medication, pay their staff, etc. Believe it or not, they are in their career to make a living. They want to buy homes, raise families, give their children the best they can, etc. Price gouging aside, there is no crime in a veterinarian making a living.

Wolvie, again I sympathize for you and wish your experience would have been more positive. I wish you would have found a vet that would have gone out of his/her way to help you during your time of need. I understand why you feel you were abandoned by my profession but its important to not place ALL the blame on every vet. Perhaps the ones you talked with were less than ideal, but also, perhaps you share some blame too?

In the future, for all, if you run into situations where a dramatic decision needs to be made ASAP and major expenses are going to be incurred, most veterinary hospitals may have access to credit programs. Most of these are through outside lenders marketing through a veterinary hospital. I offer it. Not everyone gets approved though. My feeling, however, is if the crediting agency declines trusting you, on what basis can I?

TreeDoc

01-24-2006, 04:28 PM

Excellent insight, huntingvet! It's great to be able to see this issue through the eyes of a practing DVM.

I have a question for you that's slightly off topic but runs parallel I think and is about Pet Insurance. I know there are a few underwriters of pet policies and was wondering if you accept or work with any insurance outfits. If so, is it a good idea? Are people left covering major expenses? Would love to hear some of your input if you have any.

Also, if you're willing to divulge, what area of SoCal are you in? I'm a native from north Orange County (La Habra) but have resided here on the Central Coast for over 20 years now after I came up to attend Cal Poly. I have numerous friends that were Pre-Vet here in the Animal Science Dept.

huntingvet

01-24-2006, 04:38 PM

I practice in Chino Hills. Its near Diamond Bar/Pomona area. Not too far from La Habra.

Pet Insurance is like any insurance. Make sure you know what you are buying. I think overall they are a good value. Like other insurances, they just don't seem to cover enough, but I think they do help. There are many companies. Veterinary Pet Insurance (VPI) is one of the oldest and most popular companies. They are based in Brea, CA and as such have to meet CA's standards for insurance companies (whether that's good or bad??). They are partially owned by Iams/Eukanuba.

Veterinary insurance is a little different than human insurance. Most hospitals still charge you directly but help with the paperwork that you submit for reimbursement. Hope that helps.

fabsroman

01-24-2006, 04:47 PM

TD,

The pet insurance issue is a great issue. I am half debating whether or not this thread should be moved to the "Hunting Dogs" forum or if it should stay here. Maybe we can start an insurance thread in hunting dogs. I think that is the route I am going to take.

Skyline

01-24-2006, 06:37 PM

Hmmmmmmmm..................insurance. Another interesting thread and another slippery slope. As huntingvet said be careful of what you are actually getting.

I looked into getting insurance on a stud horse we had. He was valued at about $30,000 at the time and just mortality insurance was going to run me $1200 a year. To get decent coverage on all the registered breeding stock we had at that time would have been the price of a new Honda Civic every year.

Huntingvet is absolutely right in that vets are not just trying to recover costs, they actually want to make aliving as well. Fees though as with all things tend to go with what the local market will stand. If our local vets where I live charged $1200 for a C section on a dog they just wouldn't get any business and would soon be packing up and moving to greener pastures.

We have actually seen that happen............the country folk have their own ideas as to what is a reasonable fee and it was not the land of milk and honey for a couple of the vets that set up in the area briefly. They soon moved their practice to the outskirts of a big town where there were lots of acreage owners who own horses and have lots of disposable income.

Supply and demand...........same reason a guided bighorn hunt in Alberta costs $20,000 + US. It doesn't cost any more in expenses for the outfitter to run the sheep hunt than a $5000 goat hunt, but that is what the market will bear. There are hunters willing to pay the price and the outfitters don't really care if you can't afford that and consequently will never be able to go on that hunt.

Wolvie

01-24-2006, 09:28 PM

Listen we arent talking about hunting dogs,...
We are talking about a 3 lb Chihuahua,..TACO dog,..

But move it where u shall,..it all comes down to who can and whom cant,....
I am to blame for my dogs problems,..I should have been better prepared,and now knowing what I do now,...I will be.

Knowing that the only thing that matters is the ALmighty $$$$$$$$.
We can debate,or point blame,..but what this thread is and was all about ,is simple,...
Vets taking advantage of a situation,..that they didnt have to,..but hey I understand that one bad apple kills the rest of the tree,....So lets just chop it down here,...

Later All
SAFE HUNTIN~

TreeDoc

01-24-2006, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by huntingvet
I practice in Chino Hills. Its near Diamond Bar/Pomona area. Not too far from La Habra.

Pet Insurance is like any insurance. Make sure you know what you are buying. I think overall they are a good value. Like other insurances, they just don't seem to cover enough, but I think they do help. There are many companies. Veterinary Pet Insurance (VPI) is one of the oldest and most popular companies. They are based in Brea, CA and as such have to meet CA's standards for insurance companies (whether that's good or bad??). They are partially owned by Iams/Eukanuba.

Veterinary insurance is a little different than human insurance. Most hospitals still charge you directly but help with the paperwork that you submit for reimbursement. Hope that helps.

Chino Hills by name didn't exist back in my day but I know exactly where you're at....I grew up on the fairways of Western Hills Country Club in Chino (Carbon Canyon) back when there wasn't a house for miles in any direction! I assume the golf course is still there? Back then it was a private course but it seemed to me that I heard it was going public or something. I can only imagine that if it's there still, it's got lots of houses around it!

My brother held a spot at a duck club close by too, down behind Prado Dam next to Raahauge's facility which I'm sure is still there. Most of my kin are still down in that part of the world but I try to avoid that trip down there whenever possible! ;)