12GA rifle From Hell--

[hubel458]

Visiting back here to tell you folks about a project a
few of us over on AR have completed.It is called
12GA From Hell(12Ga FH),First it is a long straight brass
12ga cartridge we made by putting rim on bmg brass and
straightening case,Two fellas has put the cartridge in
big Borchardt falling block actions, and I put mine in a
Savage 210 bolt action , with long heavy barrel and heavy stock.
In testing I got a 730 gr hard lead Dixie Terminator slug
up to 2700 fps.Here is a picture of our case next to
a regular plastic case,which we can also fire in our
chambers..Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/1212.jpg

[gd357]

Well, after the obligatory "Holy Crap!", two questions. One, how in the hell would you fire that thing short of something on wheels, and how well would those slugs hold together at that speed. I've had issues with the 2 3/4" slugs coming apart at short rang, and that case is significantly longer than that.;) :D

gd

[hubel458]

gd357-- The slugs are hardened as they don't even lead the
rifling at that speed, so they stay together.
My gun is heavy and balanced good
and easy to shoot. Big thick recoil pad.
Here is picture of the Savage set up for
this case.Ed.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/redone.jpg

[M.T. Pockets]

Did you try any other types of slugs ? I'm sure that Dixie will punch a hole through whatever it hits, but were there others you considered or tried ?

I hunt in a slug zone, rifles aren't allowed. I can't help but wonder what the conservation officer would consider this one ? I'd have some explaining to do.

You've got to get a copywrite on that name, that's a good one.

[hubel458]

If your allowed rifled slug 12ga barrels like here in S Michigan
it is legal..Dixie sells loaded slugs all over, using the same
hard slugs.It is a 12 ga with brass case that is heavier than
regular brass cases,like you can get from Magtech, in a heavy barreled gun.We got barnes 3/4 oz sabot up to 3900 fps,
and all sabots in 12ga are legal in most places.12ga
chambers ran the range from 2.4 in to 3.5 inches, and now
there is a little longer one.The Dixie slug upset and turned
into flat lump in about 4 ft of hardwood slabs,but a
banded Bridger solid bullet of 750 gr went through the whole
6 ft of bundle thickness.Rob on AR one of the developers
of this, plans on using Bridgers on cape buffalo.Ed.

[fabsroman]

Something tells me that the DNR would quickly have a bill before the legislature requiring "slug" guns to use paper or plastic hulls. You can buy a shotgun type shell in .22 lr, but something tells me that a .22 lr gun isn't a shotgun. On the flip side, they could also pass legislation limiting the muzzle velocity of the firearm.

With that said, that is one cool rifle/shotgun.

[hubel458]

fabsroman-I sure they would if a huge bunch showed up
in the woods, in shotgun only deer hunting ares.
But that is no problem as you just run 2.75 or
3in regular slugs or sabot loads which fit also.
And none of guys doing this plan on deer hunting.
But plan on big game-grizzly-africa- and the big bore
shooting matches that is starting to take off.As
well as for our own fun of just being able to
accomplish it....like 300 game in boardball.Ed.

[fabsroman]

Good point, but I think there might be a market for a gun like this until too many are sold. Imagine the selling power of it. The accuracy and range on slug guns has improved significantly over the past decade, so I wouldn't put it past someone trying to manufacturer and sell something like this.

How accurate is that gun? I would assume that it would be awesome for dangerous game. What amount of energy are you delivering with that round?

[hubel458]

fabsroman--Haven't done any shooting for groups, just
chrono work outside the back door into a backstop..
bad weather here.My top loads 11,900 ft lbs,
and Rob's toploads in the stronger Borchardt,
15,000 ft lbs.Best moderate load in mine is 730 gr at 2400
for 9300 ft lbs.Here is picture of Rob's nice Borchardt.Ed



http://www.hunt101.com/img/349129.JPG

[M.T. Pockets]

Sounds like you guys are having fun, more power to you.

[hnter]

OH MY LORD !!! :) :D :cool: ;) :eek:

That being said, I'll additionally say this..................................KUELL !!!!!!!!!! YO DUDES, THAT'S KNARLY TO DA MAX !!!!!!!!! Be a heck of a GRIZ GUN !!!!!:) :eek:
IT'S TRULY AN INSIDEOUTTER !!!! :p
HNTER

[TKO]

Wow...hurts my shoulder just looking at it. What does the recoil on that feel like?

[hubel458]

tko--It is about likeshooting a 10
lb 458 Lott rifle.Being heavy and balanced
it won't hurt as long as you hold
it tight.Ed

[Duffy]

That's just plain WOW!

[hubel458]

Duffy--Wow is the word. Very good case setup.
Here is picture of the case we fired 36 times,
sectioned to show that there is no thinning of
the sides.Not even any to measure with calipers.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12s.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a comparison picture of two other big cases,
with our case in the middle. 1st is a 700NE,
2nd our 12GA Fh, 3rd my 700HE.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/comp.jpg

[fabsroman]

What is the ballistic difference between the three cases because they look almost alike with the exception of the bases and a little length here and there.

[hubel458]

fabsroman--their relative power is more the function of
the gun used. Most 700NEs are in break actions and are loaded
down, 1000gr at 2100 fps.Our 12GA FH would be loaded to about same energy levels in break action also, but in Rob's gun that takes
high pressures( he has gotten 750 gr up to 3000 already),
loaded up to match my 700HE, which is designed
for bolt actions to handle 1000gr at 3000fps.Ed

[hubel458]

I took one of my flat nose
Bridger 750 gr solid banded hollowbase bullet
and shortened the nose. Actually made a slightly rounded
nose solid of 500 gr. With hollowbase it was still
a decent length, at one inch.I got it over
2800 fps, at my moderate pressures.Just a little
experimenting. Everyone got designs and wants
their ideas for slugs tested, so we do it.Ed.

[deadkelly]

some people call me MR recoil for braking single barrel shotties with 3in magnums .a 585 nyati came in my gun shop today and the guys want me to shoot it well you guys just blew that right out of the water i'll be down the shop tomozza with the far out news you guys rock.

[Dom]

Nice project Hubel, glad I happen to run across this thread. And I have to agree, patent that name !! Keep us up on how the accuracy is running when you do the testing, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[hubel458]

Shot a 610 grain hollowpoint Dixie hard
slug into 6 gallon sealed pail of water.
Going 2800 fps, and real big hollowpoint.
First pic is pail with crimped on top.
Pail full and has filler spout capped.
Second pic,impact with water atomising,
and pail blowing apart.In the next small
fraction of a second is third after impact
with shelf cleared, the hyrostatic pressure
down, has bent top of steel frame shelf.
Same blast put jug pieces all over.
Got to get a 15 gallon one. Behind
you see my wood bundle backstop...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Before.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Impact.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/Holy.jpg

[hubel458]

I picked up a 12ga NEF Ultra Slug gun.
With 24 in shorty barrel.
Added weight and thumbhole stock.
Gun weighted to 15 lbs so
far. I got 600gr hard slug to
1650-1700 so far, and shoots easy.
Got 1 1/2 inch thick pad.Working up different
loads.Should get over 2000.
Cases eject easy,no resizing needed
on bottom half of case,action opens easy,
no evidence of binding.Started case 3.2 inch,
settled on case length of 3.15-- Chamber being
full size max 12ga size expands top half of case
more than my minimum chamber in Savage does,
so little more effort needed to size.Our case, though many times stronger than regular
12ga cases is thinner at mouth, so that is
why I used tight chamber on Savage.Still
can't get used to mickey mouse short barrel.
Anyone know of a genius who could
make long alloy barrel with pivot mounted?
Cases can be 3 inches on up to
our length, and work.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef.jpg

[rem 700]

When can I get my hands on one of them :D That's absolutely insane and awesome. How big of a powder charge? A 7mag shooting about 60, I'm gonna guess...230? w/ 600gr hard slug? crazy....

[hubel458]

We got 600 gr slug to 2000 fps in NEF.Used ball
powder load. 230 gr. Case length of maximum 3.07 works.
Can use our case shorter, but load developement harder.
Anyone using our style case should also put in adapter
for shotgun primer. Save a lot of work
beefing up hammer speed and strength.Ed

[hubel458]

Being some guns need to much work
to fire bmg primers, it easier to
do the following with adapter bushings.
Here is picture of cases for primer
comparisons.1st is regular bmg
primer. 2nd is adapted to a shotgun primer.
3rd is adapted to large rifle primer.
Of the 2 adaptations, large rifle is
easier to do, just ream out pocket, thread in adapter, but adapting shotgun primer
you have to deepen the original primer
pocket a little, then thread and screw in
a bushing.These two primers give about
100 fps less than bmg primer.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/209.jpg

[fabsroman]

I am interested in how you make all this stuff. I am assuming that these barrels you are using are not the standard barrels that come with the guns. For instance, can I go out and buy a 12 ga. NEF slug gun, grab a couple of these monster rounds from you and fire away? Somehow, I doubt it. The result would probably be a blown up gun and possibly a dead me.

How do you make the cartridges?

[Duffy]

How much would something like that cost, if you were to make it to sell?

[hubel458]

Duffy - First off, I'm not licensed to make stuff to sell.
Just do my own.You can set up with Savage, heavy barrel and
stock. Cases etc- for about a grand. Use NEF as is for milder
loads and our cases cut back to fit chamber.Gun and
cases $350, In both instances dies extra.

Fabsroman-I use NEF with barrel and chamber as it comes
from factory.Loads are milder than in Savage and cases
are shortened.All we are doing in NEF is a stronger brass case
allowing over a third more velocity, thus over 2/3
more energy.Here is picture of 3 cases with slugs and an
original bmg case with rim turned down and threaded for
the 12ga rim sections shown in pic.In a while I will
have rims, precision made like those in picture
for fellows to put on their cases, by doing their own
machining.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sht.jpg

[hubel458]

Testing Savage with long case-Got 2550 with
320gr WC-855H special ball.730 gr slug.
Same slug,
300gr of RL-25 got 2400. 300 gr of RL-22
got 2800. 280 gr of W-760 ball got 2900.
Will hold more 760, but pressures around 40k on last
two loads mentioned.Savage extracts easy,
bellers like a tank gun.Ed

[hubel458]

We are having a group buy of 1000 gr soft jacketed
bullets for 12ga from Hawk. $2.10 each.Contact
me for details.Need order of 1000 total for them to
make dies and start.Got commitment for 400
already.Let me know if interested.Ed.

[hubel458]

We got recoil now-Got a 1050 gr
Bridger over 2200 fps in the Savage.
I took the hollow base 750 gr Bridgers
made for me, and wedged in .500 caliber
slugs(I took out of 12ga sabot)in the base.
Added 300 gr. I was going to melt lead and put in,
but this was easier about 5 seconds,
after 15 seconds shortening nose on grinder
of .500 slug.Ed

[hubel458]

WE are getting a replica of big 1887 12ga levergun to
test cases in. Should be interesting fun.Gun is here and
here is picture.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/1887.jpg

[hubel458]

Shot 12 double ought buckshot in 1887.
That's 624 grains worth. Used short
2.45 inch case that feeds from magazine.
Used fast ball powder, getting about
1500 fps. Further testing on 600 gr
hardened slug got 1700.That is in short
20 in barrel. Comparing this short case
with the 3.07 inch case I use in NEF there
is an inch difference in length of powder
column so it takes faster powder with
10k more pressure in 87 to get same velocities as in NEF. But the 1887 handles it fine.
It takes as much pressure as my Savage
in its present form.Ed

[hubel458]

I got Rocky Mtn turned 12ga cases, and am
developing loads. They are 2 7/8 inches
long are for use in NEF and shortened
in 1887. These cases have shotgun
primers. Now these cases with shotgun primers and the two cases of ours we put small primers in don't fire the slow rifle powder loads
reliably,like cases with bmg primers.
Our testing is with 600 hardened Dixie slugs.
So I have and am testing slow shotgun powder and fast rifle.I tested 5 shotgun powders and
the primers fires then ok but the quick peak pressure when loads increased to get velocity
wanted in NEF caused too much case expansion just ahead of the base.Cases ejected ok but
that expansion and resizing will ruin cases
in a couple shots.These cases have a real thick base, and are machined to glass smooth finish.Nice cases.
I now testing AA1680 Ball and RE-7, they look good.
Have got loadswith 2 wads and slug in
the Rocky Mtn case, and only .002 expansion
of case ahead of base. Will chrono next and
expect it to get velocity we want in NEF.
Nice thing about this testing is that same loads will work in shortened 87 case by just
using less wad column.Ed

[hubel458]

Got the NEF chambered for long case. And remember it
has beefed up hammer for bmg primers used in our case.
Got 2500 fps with 600 gr slug, cases eject out real easy,
8300 ft lbs from an NEF with 24 inch barrel.If you set up
NEF to use regular primers adapted to our case or
have Rocky Mtn make a long case you can do it without
a lot of work on the hammer and springs. Just use a
flake shotgun powder as a starter powder above the
primer, which how 700 NE and others are loaded.
Use 10 gr of flake and cut regular load 40 gr and
work up if pressures allow.Ed.

[DON WALKUP]

pretty cool...

don't bring it to california, though...i'm sure our paranoid "legislators" would want to outlaw it...

[hubel458]

Been testing IMR-4759. No ignition problems.
Ignition is instant with regular primers.
Don't need Blue Dot starter powder,
like we had to do with RE-7 and RE-15
for good reliable ignition.We did 4759 in
plastic cases first.600 gr slug. I got a
nice working roll crimper attachment
for drill press for crimping slugs.
That sure makes it easy, and perfect crimp.
In 2 & 3/4 plastic cases with loaded
length of about 2.35 inches got to 80gr.
That's max as you must leave room for
about 3/8 wads or cushion wad. Some cases
may only hold 75 grains max due to
the case construction.Powder is less dense
than RE-15. 1650 plus fps in 24 inch barrel.
In 3 inch cases, loaded length about 2.6
inches, got to 95 grs max, 1800 plus fps.
Some cases may only hold 90 gr due to
case construction. Cushion is
a half inch felt wad or equivalent.
Both lengths start down and go up
if pressures allow. 60 gr short case,70 long.
This powder being faster than RE-15 you must
have a little cushion in the way of felt wads
or plastic cushion wads.With slower RE-15
a card wad works ok as powder started slower.
The powder burning must build pressure
to open crimp without a to high pressure spike.
This bulky powder with reliable ignition
is a winner.Then we tested 3" Rocky Mtn brass
cases, Got max load of 105 gr, and 1900 plus
fps. In few weeks will get the 4759 and RE-15
loads pressure tested.Ed

[hubel458]

Now these loads are for only heavy barreled
steel action guns like the NEF Ultra 12,
or like my Savage with heavy barrel added.
I am getting heavy barrel on the 87 and
it will be long.There are some turn bolt
locking lug pumpguns that would work
with heavy barrels.There is a large
12ga Tula bolt action, but it's not imported.
This week if weather allows(no rain)
I will be firing first test loads of my
700HE long belted case.Ed.

[hubel458]

Found an O/U that would handle the 4759 3"
loads. It is the Zoli Z-Sport. Expensive,
all alloy steel construction, tested to
about 100k. That's not a missprint.Their
site shows testing at the Italian proof house
of 8000 bar.That's 7-8 times regular shotgun
working loads.Pic of action below. It handling that extreme pressure, means that other quality
O/U like Ruger may handle 4759 loads.Ed

http://www.zoli.it/america/images_z/z_espedition2.jpg

[hubel458]

Hot damnn- Test Results of 4 plastic cases.
Rem high base 3" case, with 600 gr
Dixie hardened slug. Roll crimped with
crimper in drill press. All 4 loaded with
90 gr of 4759. We have a winner.
Average velocity of 4 -- 1938 fps
Average pressure of 4 -- 14, 575 psi.
tested with transducer test ing setup,
in 30 inch barrel,In my 24" NEF I got 1800+.
Cases fell out of his test chamber like they did out of
my NEF.And with some cases I can get in 95gr,
that I figured with my math would
have 15k psi.So my math and developement is
OK.And 4800 ft lbs, thats neat with plastic.
Tom says this load will do in any gun that handles
the 2 oz factory magnum goose loads
that test about 13,600 to 14,000.And 4759
will give slower time to peak pressure, thus
will be easier on cases than magnum goose loads
or the hot factory Buckhamer slug loads
I fired, that expanded cases as much or more
than our 4759 loads.Ed

[model 70]

i may have missed the post but what exactly would these be used for?

[hubel458]

Big game hunting in modern shotguns, with
regular chambers, like the NEF Ultra 12ga
slug gun or a Savage 210 12ga slug gun.Ed.

[hubel458]

Buckhammer 3 "factory loads are 15k psi.
A 2.75 inch case with 80 gr of 4759, a thin card wad,
a 3/8 cushion lubed felt wad, when crimped is about
2.4 inches long, with 600gr Dixie slug. Based on
pressures recorded in previous post for 3 inch case
and 90gr of 4759, they will run about 13,400 psi,
and work through modern guns.Another load tested with
same bullet, 65gr of 4759, tested at same place
was 11,800 psi and 1640 fps. So you don't have
to put in my max loads, but go down a
little and use in modern guns that
are lighter than NEF so they don't kick so bad.But yet
you can get fairly good energy levels for big game, 3300
to 4000 ft lbs of energy.Ed

[hubel458]

WE planning on a big action for 12GA FH.
Here is picture of top part of the
first scale-up model, next to smaller
Wickliffe. It has 12GA FH round in feed
trough. It is aluminum just for a model.
It will handle 12GA FH, 700HE, 700NE, 600NE,
etc. Bottom of block is flat to set on
mill table to do the machining.Next machining
will be the hole and slot down through the
action for breech block and hammer to
slide up and down in.Its taken awhile to
get some tooling.I had none when we set up
vertical mill, and have to get more.The
action model also will be narrowed up when
finished, and contoured to look as good
as the Wickcliffe.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/su.jpg

[hubel458]

Tested the Wickcliffe with 12ga FH case
in a temperary chamber, just primer, to see if
hammer with beefed up spring would fire
bmg primers.I scalloped out the back
of the action so 12ga cases would feed
into the action and temp chamber
They fired ok. But the extra stiff spring
makes it hard to cock. We will have to work
on that.The original Wickcliffe
action that we want to scale up is tall
enough so that when breech block is
lowered the block clears the bottom
a 12ga rim when cases slide out of chamber.
So in the scale up we need to just add a
a little width for wider breech block,
and the bigger barrel thread, and keep the
sides thick for strength.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired couple 3.5" cases with 90gr
4759 and 460 grains of buckshot,
14 number 1 buckshot.Fired in nef,
pattern huge due to rifling, even with
shotcup. They were going 2000 fps plus,
and went through 1/8 steel on end of
stand. Ignition perfect, extracted easy.
In smoothbore be a real hairy load.
With three 3.5" plastic cases with
100gr 4759, 600gr slug. Used .135 card wad,
a 1/2" and 1/4" felt wads. 1900+ fps
in 24" NEF barrel, same low pressure as
the 3" cases we pressure tested. I have NEF
chamber lengthened for our longer
brass case so it does 3 & 3.5" also. A nice
long barrel we'd have 2050 plus.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pictures of the breech, lever,
linkage, etc, set up on a block to
get the geometry for the scaleup model working
ok.And setup measurements to make the breech
hole in the action, in right place.Also used
this model to get hammer and trigger set
up to ride on the breech block. With
a strong hammer and trigger in the right
place in the guard.In the pics above you see the pin the
lever pivots on. The actions being bigger
will be wider than the levers;So the space on the
pivot will be taken up by the Ruger
style extractor on the left side and a spacer
on the right side. Spacer also acts as a
breech block stop at the bottom of the
breech travel.So to get block stopped at
right position for the diameter of the case
and feed trough, we adjust spacer size.
Ruger extractors from GP changed
a little bit will do.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/70.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/71.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is sectioned action with parts in.
Original action that had defects
that I sectioned down the middle..I
ground out the top to allow case
to set higher, representing a
the taller action that we will
have due to larger diameter cases.
That lever in the picture is the
lever we will use with longer stroke.
Also in the action layout is the
breechblock, hammer, trigger with a
12GA FH in front, all in to check layout.
This lever looks to be easier to fit
and shape to bigger action and stock,
with a good pistolgrip to handle recoil.
Lever shape fits where trigger is better.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/hta.jpg

[hubel458]

I will be posting more research on this thread
about other powders in 12ga plastic cases,about the
12GA FH loads, about scaled up falling blocks, my 700HE long
belted case, and the 28GA FH.Here is picture of
some other cartridges I have with some of mine.
1st= 408CT, 2nd- T-rex necked to 416- 3rd- 600OK
4th- 510HE, 5th-585HE, 6th-700H 3.25, 7th-12GA FH,
8th-700HE. Last most powerful. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/chh.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is pic of the finished breech block model
for the scaleup action.You can see hammer
and trigger mounted in the rear of the
block.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/block.jpg

[hubel458]

Another shotgun/rifle experiment is 28ga FH.
Rocky MTN is making me some
3.25 in 28ga cases. They are good to 38k psi.
That will get 500-550 gr out at 2500 in
bolt action.A regular 28ga gun may get to
2000, depending on how heavy barrel is.Should
average 17-1800. Just lengthen chamber.
Get a NEF Ultra cut off leaving breech section
for monoblock and have 28ga rifled barrel
made and screwed or soldered in monoblock.
And being able to hold 38k to match brass,
That would get 2500 fps loads.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the first falling block
model of aluminum, with a roughed out
stock to see how it looks. Action is a
rough model. It shoulders nice, and
lever is inlet into pistol grip,
so you can't get banged up
fingers with the big cartridges it is designed
for, like levers that stick down at the
guard.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfb.jpg

[fishnfrank]

I know you've been told this already. But you need to get it patented, so I can buy one. Looks good. Keep up the good work.

[hubel458]

Here is pic of action model with lever open
and the breech block down. Also the action
will have a slot in the top rear for a
top tang of whatever length you need.
Can even have long tang for tang sight.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hfbo.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is pic of a double that I will put
barrels in, monoblock style, using the breech
section for the monoblock. This one will be
for 28GA FH. May get another same size for
my 510HE. I will be able to run full pressures
with these.....I am trying to find a bigger,
heavier one to put 12GA FH in. I want
heavier one so as to run pressures like my
Savage as a minimum.Ed.


http://www.gunownerstv.com/zab.jpg

[hubel458]

Had question about locking RMC cases onto
lead slugs, as they don't crimp into the
grooves well as sharp bend works thick
mouth. First I resize tight and slightly bell
mouth.Insert slugs which take a little pressure.
Then I use a die with slightly more
taper and swage the mouth into slug, like
the fit you get with bottleneck cases.
Same deal works with our long cases made
from BMG brass.Ed

[hubel458]

Preliminary testing with VV N-110 powder shows
it works with small primers like the 4759 powder,
in plastic cases. Perfect ignition like the 4759.
Starting loads are 60 gr min like 4759 for good
ignition,600gr slug. In 2 & 3/4" plastic full load is 75gr
with card and 1/4" cushion wad.In Nef 24" bbl 1700fps.
In 3" plastic 87gr, card and 3/8" wad, 1800 plus.
In RMC brass case. 100gr, card and 1/2 wad 1900 plus.
All running same safe pressures as 4759 lab tested.
So that is two powders that are slower than shotgun
powders, and much safer to work with for regular
primers, giving at least 20% more velocity. Ed

[hubel458]

Along with the two slower than shotgun powders, IMR 4759
and VV N110 that ignite reliably with shotgun primers,
that are easier to load for slugs, in heavy bbl can
get 20% plus more velocity, I've found another. It is
IMR 7383 $3 a lb surplus. Tested plastic 3" cases, perfect ignition with regular primers. 8 types of cases,600gr slug
starting load 100gr. Full load 140gr giving 1800 fps plus
in 24" bbl NEF.With loads halfway between start and full
didn't even have to resize to shoot again.Full load just has
a card wad under slug in 3" plastic.Wad just tight on
charge, as no extreme compression of powder needed.
Will do heavier slugs and
RMC brass cases. Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 730g with 7383. Perfect ignition.Extracts easy.
130gr gives 1650 plus fps in 3" plastic.
Tested 800g slug with 7383 in plastic.Works good.
Have question about different cases and dies.
The RMC cases use a shotgun primer, thus they have
a real thick base. They are not a thin headed,
balloon headed case, and RMC makes sides thick
enough for regular 12ga wads.
But in a break action the 3" plastic cases
with our 4759, VV110, 7383 loads are close to RMC in
power. Can buy a hundred plastic for price of one RMC.
3.5" chamber 12ga with plastic is as good as RMC for 3"
And if I shot RMC in Savage to get more power,
which I could do as far as the firing process,
the expansion above the base, due to being a turned case
would make extraction stiff, causing extractor to
damage rim. A turned rim will not take what
a drawn one will. Rcbs set should do RMC easy.Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 870gr hard slug with 7383 in 3"
plastic. Over 1500 fps in NEF short barrel.
I wish it had a longer 32" barrel..........
The folks at 50 Cal suggested we write up a
piece on the 12GA FH. Interested in what we
did to make hairy cartridge using 50 cal brass
adapted to the 12 gauge shotgun platform.
A job for Rob to do? His wild idea has been
viewed about 400,000 times in the forums
we put it in.Ed

[hubel458]

Found another powder that works with small
primers in plastic and RMC cases, w/600gr slug.
It is IMR 4227. Ignition perfect, same load
levels and velocities as 4759.

Powders slower than shotgun type, that ignite
properly with small primers(shotgun-lg rifle);
we found 4759, VV-110, 4227, 7383 surplus,
the latter a slow powder that also works
with real heavy slugs

Pressure tested 7383 with heavy powder load.
870 gr with 128 gr of 7383-- All that could
be put in REM plastic and keep length to what
would feed from magazine of a 3" gun,
after it was roll crimped with tool in drillpress.
1513 fps-- 14700 psi. That is a slug 50%
heavier than factory Buckhammer at little
faster speed and at little less pressure.
Ignition perfect, cases fall out.
Love that $3 a lb powder.Ed

[hubel458]

Finally able to make the
longer barrel improvement on
the 1887 12ga levergun.......
Rifled and heavy and 31"
long. After many months finally got
a barrel.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87up.jpg

[hubel458]

With NEF. Plastic cases, roll crimped slug
in drillpress. 82gr IMR 4227 1650 fps,
with 730gr, 78 gr 4227 with 800gr, 1600.
Expansion on cases show little more pressure
as full loads of 4759 and 600gr.
Ignition perfect with small primers.
Ejects cases fine. Burns clean.
Got a GEHA bolt 12ga to put a heavier
rifled barrel on to test. Ed

[hubel458]

Tested 870 gr in NEF with our long
brass case with big primer.I have NEF
with extra hammer spring for big primer.
Got 2000 fps and still able to extract case.
Would do little more, extractor needs
to be wider and set up positive.
Used 260gr of WC-860 and MagPro.
Could use RL-22, Rl-25, Retumbo, etc.
That's 7700 ft lbs.. I get 600 gr slug to
2300 plus in NEF, long case. so you can go
light or heavy.Ed

[hubel458]

More testing with 4227. Greg got little over 1500 fps in
3" plastic with 870 gr slug using 74-75 gr of 4227.
I did the same. This compares to much lighter
REM Buckhammer slug, we have more speed. Almost all
the way through 5 ft bundle hardwood boards.
I have Mossy 695 as well as GEHA 12 gauge
to put heavy rifled barrels on. And my 87.
Will be checking Mossy 395
for a guy who wants to put on
a heavy barrel.Here is pic of 695 bolt action
Mossberg with dinky barrel and the heavy long
rifled barrel for it. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss.jpg

[hubel458]

I tested in NEF 3' cases, Alliant 2400 with
small primers, Fired ok at 75 deg but when
case cooled there was majority of misfires
and squib loads. Don't reccomend it..
Here is picture of Mauser 12ga bolt action
GEHA next to a heavy barrel like I will put
on it Make a good slug gun.Ed




http://www.gunownerstv.com/geha

[hubel458]

The 12GA From Hell, 700HE, and
700HE 3.25" is now on
Ammoguide, the last page of
cartridge list.Recent news says
H&H is going to build Paradox
Shotgun/Rifles.Ed

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=611

[hubel458]

We tested 3.5" plastic cases in NEF, small
primers. My chamber is lengthened for our
long brass case, so they work fine.....
With 600 gr slug, 105 gr of IMR 4227,
got 2100. Same slug, 180 gr, 7383 surplus,
got 2100 fps. That's 5800 ft lbs from
plastic shotgun cases.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is the Enfield I reamed out to feed 12 gauge and BMG
size cases. I added two rear bolt locking lugs, one the huge bolt
handle and another added that locks in rear bridge. The front lugs
still contact on their top 40 %. This is concept from earlier shown
Mauser shotgun conversions, where they were made from 98
Mausers, giving a bolt action 12ga.This one is chambered for
my belted 700H 3.25" case, as a load developement test gun.
Loads up to 825 gr at 2500 so far. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/325b.jpg

[gumpokc]

Damn nice qwork your doing there, and I agree with the others you should patent this asap!

[hubel458]

The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fh.jpg

[gumpokc]

Would #3 be the....OTKLAM round?
(owwwww-that-kicks-like-a-mule)

[hubel458]

It is the 8GA From Hell, a real cartridge. 4.3 inch long
brass case. 8 ga shorter plastic case, plan on in same chamber.
The brass kiln gun case isn't as long as mine. Where do
you find the rare 8 ga brass kiln gun cases.
Looking now for guns or actions and barrels. I make it
from 20mm Suzy brass(20mm Hispano Suiza), by putting
on a 8ga size rim and reshaping like we did 12GA FH....Ed

[hubel458]

8ga, we gonna do a couple, first one a test
gun in an Enfield with rear locking lugs added.
All locking is in the rear, it is not exactly like
my 700HE one,as both lug seats gone in the
front like a Mauser 12ga shotgun.
May have a way to get barrels 'fast'---
fast being like 2 weeks, from the time I
have money to do it. And only about
150 bucks each.......Am working on it.
In pic you see long case sticking out of
the action, a couple 8ga plastic cases, a
couple of the 8ga kiln slugs, 3 oz and
hardened. Am looking for a slug built like the
Federal 10 ga one that has rounded nose and
hollow base, that fits bore tight, for smoothbore.
The barrels I am working deal on will be smoothbore.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fhe.jpg

[hubel458]

Had a light barrel 87 12ga replica now
it is this Long Tom slug gun.....Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

[hubel458]

Got an 8ga barrel blank being made now,
will be here end of the week.Found this
info on plastic 8ga kiln gun loads, they
load a frangible 710gr slug at 2300-
for 8300ft lbs, load 1275gr hard slug to
1700, 8100 ft lbs. We will outdo those easy
with our non-shotgun powder loads, in
a heavy barrel. We setup an Enfield for 8ga.
In the 87 long barreled gun we will be testing
Breneke slugs. Guys are reporting good accuracy
in smooth and rifled barrels. The pictured barrel
on 87 is smooth and we will see how the
slugs in pic stand some speed.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/bren.jpg

[hubel458]

Tested 35" smooth barrel in 1887. Got couple
1 oz foster slugs over 2400, with 110gr
of 4227. 3" plastic case, regular primers.
This is a heavy barrel for that type of load,
don't do this in your 12ga skinny barrels.
The 28GA FH cases on the way.Chambering
bolt gun for it now..Ed

[hubel458]

In the 87 long smooth barrel got
1 oz Brenneke to 2400 with 110gr
of 4227, You could use 4759 and
VV110 also at lesser amounts.
Barrel is cylinder bore size.
Brenneke slugs need no wads as the
locked on wad works good.Ed
And going heavier in 87 got 600 grain
Dixie over 2000, got a Buckhammer slug
I took out of factory load over 1900.
Buckhammer and locked on wad is 630
gr. Tested in 3" plastic cases.

The firing pin on the 87 didn't protude out
like I like them to as it comes from factory,
so I removed .015 from the hammer stop.
It fires big and small primers perfect.Ed

[hubel458]

10GA FH..a NEF 10ga, medium to heavy wt smooth barrel.
28" long, gun weighted to 14lbs. Factory FED 765gr loads
are 1300 fps. 200 gr of first powder tested is 7383 surplus
and the regular shotgun primers got 765 gr to 1600,
for 4300 ft lbs. Case won't hold anymore 7383.
Federal factory hollowbase slug is .025" smaller than
10ga bore. I bumped it up to the .775" size, by expanding
hollow base. With 7383 that gave another 150 fps.Fast starting
shotgun powders expand base better than much slower 7383.
The Federal factory load has 120gr of wads/seals about 1.4"
long. Better to replace with much more slower powder,
getting better velocity, still at low shotgun pressures.Ed
We will test 4227 with the same slug , and saboted slug
of some design. We roll crimped with crimper in drill press.
Case expansion with 7383 very little(.006") like
the factory loads. 3.5" plastic.Used one .050 wad.Ed

[hubel458]

In 10GA NEF 110gr 4227 got 765gr slug
to 1800, ejected ok. If it was a really
heavy barrel it could do more.Using the
7383 surplus at 150 gr, don't even have
to resize to fire 3 times. The 28GA FH
done and testing in next couple weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired 28GA FH-- Cases extract easy.--It is
in bolt action Enfield. With 550gr jkt slug,
full load 150 gr of WC-860, got 1900 fps.
This will be slowest load and powder.
In picture is 3.25" brass 28ga cases, regular
28ga plastic case, jkt slugs, a 458Win
for comparison.Regular cases work also.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhb.jpg

[hofts]

uh yeah, what?

[hubel458]

28ga cases are made by Rocky Mtn Cartridge,
Barrel is rifled with 4 grooves, 1-22 twist.
You could do one on Savage 210.Another
shotgun bolt action that would handle it
with little work, heavy barrel, is the
395-495-595-695 bolt action Mossberg.
Just to show that 28GA FH isn't puny, here is
picture of it next to a 505 Gibbs.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/28fhg.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture and info on Royal
Arms' site for hopped up 12ga loads,
used in little cannons for bomb work.
Anyone got any of these fired that I could inspect to see how they are built.ED

http://www.royalarms.com/EOD/ammo/canonammo.gif

[hubel458]

I like the Savage 210 so I'm putting
a 700 barrel on one and chambering for
my 700H 3.25 case. Working on it now.
It is a straight belted case, .700 cal.
Should get the same energy levels as
the 12GA From Hell case in same action.
In pic is 700H case in the action.
There is guy building a 600 Nitro
in 210 also. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/325c.jpg

[hubel458]

28GA FH research. Guy on forums suggested using 54cal
rifled barrels for 28ga as they are easy to get. I looked into
it and did some testing. It is ok as long as you keep bullet
about 400gr as most 54cal barrels are not super alloy.
You got to use the thick heavy ones also, being stronger.
And everyone with 28ga wants slugs and there is no slug loads
from factory, and to reload the heavier bullets we shouldn't use
these barrels or regular 28ga barrels with 600-700 gr slugs.
But there are couple dozen 54cal bullets out there
stocked all over the gunstore shelves, in weights from 300 to
450 gr. There are heavier but for 28GA FH on deer 400gr is
great. I tested the 405 gr copper plated Powerbelt brand, with
velocities from 2300 to 2800 plus fps. That's 6500 ft lbs.
The 54cal slugs load tight in the RMC 3.25" 28ga case fine by
sizing top a little tighter. Bullet obturates to fit .550 bore
as bullet is hitting target straight. A lot of 54cal barrels
go from 530 to 560. 54cal slugs range from .534 to .560"
There are different sizes of 28ga barrels and chokes,
so some where there is lighter 54cal slug that fits..
And with light slugs the pressure limits with the MRC brass
match top muzzle loading pressures, so these barrels will work.
And great thing is the 54cal barrel guys ain't allergic
to making long barrels. I've shot one MRC case 15 times and
still going strong...Ed

[hubel458]

28GA FH testing. 405 gr in 2.75" plastic case
got 1400. Tested the Great Plains 54cal
lubed slug, runs from 2200 to 2700. It is
by Hornady and its front band actually measures
.550" and hollowbase. They hit target straight.
Got a bunch of 415gr hollowbase coming that
are 548" from Dixie Gunworks. Only 26 cents each.
All will work in plastic or long brass
case. I found another .550 bbl and coming, and
it will go on a Mossberg bolt action
for the second 28GA FH to test.. Ed

[hubel458]

tested the 415 gr hollowbase slugs in 28GA FH long
brass case. These are ones that Dixie Gunworks sell
that they call their Sharps .548" slug. They all run
about .008 bigger than that so they make perfect tight
fit for .550" barrel, and I used a good lube on them
in the grooves. They are a little harder alloy slug than
the Powerbelts or Great Plains The 28ga shellholder
for our Lee, Lyman, Rcbs presses , we use, is from
RCBS for regular metallic press rams. For 28ga dies
Hollywood made some for metallic presses.Also for
sizing for bottom 2/3 of the brass case you can cut
top off of the 500J die.The slower powder loads don't
even have to have the bottom half sized, which
is great for a turned case. If we had drawn brass cases
we could get 11,000 ft lbs, in the Enfield, which we
don't really need for deer. 4-6000 ft lbs ok/deer ..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a jacketed hollowpoint
12ga slug a fellow is going to make for us.
We hope to have tooling set up this summer
we plan on. Next to it is a 600gr Dixie hardened
slug. First ones he will probably make will
be about 700-750 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12h.jpg

[Larryjk]

hubel458, I think you must be the guy giving some of my customers ideas. What is the "AR" site? I would like to browse it to increase my knowledge of ideas I don't need.

[Larryjk]

Originally posted by hubel458
The three From Hell cartridges----
My 28GA FH, 2nd Our 12GA FH, can
you guess the 3rd?. What do readers think. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8fh.jpg :) The little perforations near the mouth of the right-hand case sure remind me of a 20mm case!

[hubel458]

AR is the Accurate Reloading forums- I post on the
big bore one. Th right hand 8ga case is made from
20mm Suzy brass(Hispano-Suiza).Added rim, reshaped.

In the 87 Win Levergun, smooth barrel,
long barrel, using brass RMC 3" cases,
1 oz Brenneke KO slug to 2700 with 4227
powder. Shotgun primer. I will be getting
some 3.5" RMC brass that he will put a special
longer corner radius in, to allow faster loads
with less case expansion and easier resizing.
Should get same slug to 3000 and resize
easier also. With shotgun primer able to use
4227, and you WON"T have to rework hammer
or firing pin to do big primers.

Santa sent me 9 more PROP cases.Got 12 now.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/pc1.jpg

[hubel458]

THE 8GA FH BELLERED TODAY. It is in Enfield I rigged with
rear locking bolt lugs. 32" barrel, tested 3.3" plastic cases.
Cases are the REM kiln gun cases. With the double cup base.
I shaved base a little so that chamber will fire these as well as
regular 8ga plastic. None of the firing today expanded base cups
at all, so they are real strong cases. Started testing to check
ignition with shotgun primers and to see if cases are any
good. Starting with a 110 gr mouse ball, wad under it, and 150 gr
of Blue Dot, about 5000 fps.. Gun didn't even recoil.Then a
410 gr one at 3000 fps, Then a 770 gr hollowbase slug in a wadcup
up to 2000 so far with 180gr of 7383. Barrel is smoothbore. 832"
bore at the muzzle. Ed

[hubel458]

8GA FH testing- using IMR 4759, 770 gr slug,
top load of 140 gr, got 2500 fps......
Over 10,000 ft lbs..Cases extract easy.
Here is picture of Enfield 8GA FH. You can see plastic case
in the port. Box of cases behind, 770 gr and 1050 gr
slugs in front with the 8ga wadcups I use.
Left two slugs are 1050 gr made from 3 oz kiln slugs.
I rounded nose and put in hollow base. Also the
cards and fiber wads used. Slugs are hollowbase, as
it is smooth bore barrel. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/8en.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture on left of the 12ga hollowpoint slug
with plastic tip. Makes it streamlined, good for 300yds.
And still will expand good thin skinned game-deer.
I put tip in with glue gun in few seconds, and
shaped a point on it with trim knife. Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hfill.jpg

[Larryjk]

The little indentations at the mouth tell me it is a 20mm. Used to find some of them laying on the ground of the gunnery range. Don't know where they all went?:confused:

[hubel458]

I also have two other cartridges with my name
on them that I am promoting. They are my 700HE
and my 585BHE. They both belted straight cases.
Montana Rifle company is coming out with their
big PH action and some guys will be doing my
cases in them.
Info on the 585BHE. It will work in
any gun that handles 505 Gibbs like Enfield, CZ,
Ruger,etc.Mine is in Enfield.On left in picture
is one next to puny Trex. And mine holds 15gr more
powder than that Trex case. 585BHE will do 750
grain from 1800 to 2800 fps in my Enfield.
Anyone interested setting up a gun, contact me
I will furnish reamer and 15 free cases. Cases are
headstamped. When done return reamer to me, for
the next guy. I will keep them sharpened. After a
few guys have guns we all will get together with
others wanting some and get a run of brass made.
These cases are all drawn high pressure brass.
I'd like guys to ask for reamer when gun is going
to be ready to chamber, that way reamers get the
most guns done in shortest time.Ed




http://www.gunownerstv.com/heandt.jpg

[hubel458]

On Fri May 2 8pm on the Science Channel ,they will have
an article about the heavy barrel cannons that shoot
the brass cases for bomb disposal.They are the same as
our 12GA FH case,when resized in my dies and are shown
in this thread a couple months back in picture.
It will show them using them for bomb disposal. Ed

[hubel458]

Testing 8GA FH in Enfield, 1050 gr slug in wad cup, 120 gr
of 4759, over 2000 fps. Cases extract easy. Hardly any
base cup expansion..Here is picture of a
sectioned 8ga plastic case I did,
showing how heavy and strong it is built. The
plastic is one piece compressioned formed and
the sides of the cases are twice as thick as
12ga cases.You can see the double thickness
of the base cup. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8sec.jpg

[Larryjk]

I am fasciated by what I have been seeing in these posts. Unfortunately, I don't have time or customers who will take one of these on. Maybe when things slow down some.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the bolt setup for the 8ga
Enfield we did.Also comparison to a Mauser
12ga shotgun bolt conversion, from which
I got the concept. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bh.jpg

[Larryjk]

I had a friend in college who had a Mauser 12 ga original conversion. I understand from his brother he still has it. Are you reading this, Tom (Pekoe)?

[hubel458]

I was asked how I got 8ga heavy barrel so quick.
First it is smoothbore, second a 110 bucks total shipping and all.
First I bought a 1.5 inch dia 4130 alloy, heat treated, shaft,
32" long. Then I had a deep hole drilling company drill
a .832" hole in it. Came out centered on both ends.
Then after it got here I used cylinder hone to polish
the inside of the bore. Threaded it, chambered it, and put
in the Enfield bolt action. The heat treating it had was just like
the barrel stock that barrel guys get. Ed.

[hubel458]

For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was taken from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

[hubel458]

Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM

[Larryjk]

hubel458, I saw the video on the water bucket routine. a fun way to water the flowers!

[hubel458]

There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

[Larryjk]

hubel458, Okay. Now my interest is more than usual. I have been known to shoot some rifles that have a lot of recoil. I have been trying to figure out how to make a "standing benchrest" so I can give ground with recoil, or at least be more upright so I don't absorb all of the recoil. Watching the video, "Grandpa's Cannon" gave me a short look at what you have done for a standing benchrest. How are chances of getting some pictures of that bench from several different angles so I can figure out how to build and put it up at our local range? I would also be willing to pay some nominal fee for a set of plans. Let me know what the chances are of something like that happening! larryjk@tribcsp.com

[hubel458]

You can do a standup stand with couple sheets of plywood,
two 4x4s, and 3 - 2x4s.. One sheet cut in two 4x4 are the
sides. Two 4x4s cut in half makes 4 corners. Other sheet cut
in 3 pieces make top and ends.. 2x4s make cross pieces
and bottom pieces. Just like making a tall box with
a heavy strong frame, and weight.

Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port.Here is URL of
the "Grandpa's First Shot" video. Ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk


http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28.jpg

[Larryjk]

I'll have to give that standing rest a whirl. Up to my backside in work right now so it will have to wait awile.

[hubel458]

Here is closeup pic of Rob's 12GA FH, a Borchardt falling block
action. Real nice. In picture is along brass 12ga case with one
of Rob's 2000gr bore rider, solid, streamlined slugs. Ed




http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/2430DSC00694.JPG

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a neat scaled up Sharps replica
that would handle out 12GA FH and my 700HE.
That outside hammer looks great. From a magazine
article in Very High Power...Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/Bradley50BMG4.jpg

[Larryjk]

I would imagine that, even considering the size of the Bradley Falling Block, recoil of the 50 BMG must be very memorable!

[hubel458]

Here is a pic of a projectile idea Rob had. We will test it later
this fall, It is 12ga bore rider design Body is Aluminum, and it
will have a heavy 50 cal insert in the nose made from tungsten
or similiar metals. In the picture he put a 50 cal bullet in for
show. The insert in the nose will be flush with front of the
AL carrier. It should be stable at slow twists and if built
with back and front same diameter stable in smoothbores.
The long lighter tail-end compared to heavy nose insert
will make it stable. Same principle Brenekke uses. This idea
is being explored to try to get superior penetration
from 12ga, with heavy, hard insert in the nose.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_01741.jpg

[hubel458]

Got my long 700 HE case chambered barrel
finally in a bmg size action. It is barrel
I locked onto an I-beam and got testing and
load developement done over the last couple
years. Max load about 23,000 ft lbs.
It weighs 27 lbs, laminated thumbhole stock,
a max size pad, weighted butt, a reinforced
wrist, recoil barrel ring on front of stock.Ed


http://www.gunownerstv.com/700helr.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is another view of my 700HE blaster,
that I got rigged up on an action and stock.
Side view shows action with a aperture sight I
rigged up. Also cases. On left is 700H 3.25" case.
Center my 700HE, what the gun in picture has now.
Good for nearly 23,000 ft lbs, we attained in
a work up in testing with the barrel as a test
barrel with screw on testing receiver....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/helr.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of another dart type 12ga slug Rob made. Body
is aluminum, it has a heavy tungsten carbide insert in the
nose. The TC in the nose is about 5 times denser than AL.
Total length is 2.35 inches, weight about 950 gr. The .75" long
insert a real tight type fit. Heat AL, put in insert, cools, locks on.
It is fairly streamlined, yet has wide meplat for penetration
in game. Flat points penetrate straighter in game.
It is hollow inside in the back, behind insert which puts the
center of gravity way up front, it should fly straight even from
a smoothbore. They are fast to make and material
less expense than copper.In pic is a copper and a brass 600
cal slugs for comparison. Dart/slug on right has insert.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/00312.JPG

[Larryjk]

Awesome looking slugs. Have seen less for artillery.

[hubel458]

Here are more samples of nice 12ga slugs.....Here is pic of
ones RG Henson sent. Jacketed 12ga. 715gr hollowpoints,
on the right and in front a jkt 675gr hollowbase.
RG's number 1-770-366-4846. These will be great for
shorter plastic and brass cases as well as long cases.
Other slugs in pic, in the back, left to right
Foster 436gr- Dixie 600gr- 750gr brass- my 750gr hollowbase
brass, and a hollowpoint I put a lightweight filler in the nose
for streamlining..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12hbhp.jpg

[hubel458]

Two other 12ga slugs RG may do later on are full
jacketed ones. If interested in the hp one above
contact him at number above. He has to do a bunch
of them to get ahead to do others.And they will be
a fantastic deer, hog, bear slug. He is in Georgia.
Also, any of you who might want some of the 12GA FH
brass cases made from BMG brass, we have the fellow who
had the idea about the 12GA FH first, Rob on AR forum,
is planning on making them. He has got the machines to do
it now, that we didn't have before. Let me know how many
you are interested in getting, so he can plan and figure
the best way . He has a bunch of BMG cases to start with,
he and I have places to get more.I'm posting this all over.Ed

[hubel458]

Testing 715gr jacketed hollowpoint from RG Henson in Savage 210.
With 30 inch barrel, long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Slightly hairy load 290gr RL22--2700 fps. Shot moderate load
of 300gr W-860 -- 2400 fps for 3 shot group of 3" at 50
yards with my bad eyes and peep sights. They shoot nice, they go
into target straight.. Other nice thing the price from RG,
for customers getting in on his first run, $1.25 plus shipping.
That is less than half of what other big bore jkt bullets cost.
Call him for some great slugs. They are great like
the Dixie slugs. Ed

[hubel458]

Lookee what another santa sent me.
A regular BMG case on the left, and
a straight BMG case on the right, and it
CAME FROM THE MANUFACTURER THAT WAY.

It is primer cartridge for large guns and howitzers.
It is used in those guns/cannons that have powder in big bags.
It is filled with powder and inserted into cannon breach and
when fired sets off the larger charge. On some cannon breaches
they have an automatic feed for these with a huge 40 round
drum magazine. This on is marked IVI 89 C67. IVI is Canadian.
On these breaches it is held by collet fingers for head space
and for ejection.

Ok, there are many thousands more of these out there than the
PROP cases I showed before. We need to find few barrels of these
and have Rob, etal, put on rims.... no annealing.....no fireforming,
just slight resize to 12GA FH. Please help if you know of any.
They would save so much work and time..And even though fired
the bases are perfectly straight, another plus.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bmgs.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of RG's jacketed 715gr slugs in various
loads.First are 2.75" and 3" factory foster slugs\ for
comparison. 3rd is jkt HP in 3.5" plastic case, 4th in a
3" brass RMC case. 5th in a 3.5" brass case with small
primer, 6th in our long brass 3.85" case, big primer.
Top hairy load in long case in Savage, 2900..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgslug.jpg

[hubel458]

Please notice in the picture above, cases loaded with
the 715 gr jacketed slugs, the 3rd and 4th ones.
They both have same 90gr of 4227, same number of
wads, shoot at 1700 in 24" NEF barrel. 3rd plastic is
3.5" case, the 4th brass is a 3" RMC. Both have shotgun
primers.The 5th longer case is a 3.5" strong
brass one I made from a PROP case, and when I put
in primer bushing, I set it up for shotgun primer. I
will test it with 4227 powder, 600gr and 715 gr slugs.
Also in a couple months Rob, who's idea the 12GA FH
was will be able to deliver the super strong 12GA FH
cases made from BMG brass. And the they will be
headstamped, all done by his CNC machine.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_02111.JPG

[hubel458]

RIP on AR Big bore forum is doing 835 Mossy and 1400gr Darwin slugs.
A 14.5 pound Ulti-Mag. The hollow part of the butt is filled with about 5.5 lbs of lead shot and epoxy. Has 4X Sightron in QRW rings. Do 3.5" plastic hulls with the Darwin in it first. It balances on the trigger. Loading the magazine with 4 and one up the spout will add about 1.25 pounds if the 5 rounds are "Darwins," and move the balance point to the front of the triggerguard.
It is heavier rifled 24" chromoly alloy barrel.

Brett in MN has Mossy 835, only with smoothbore barrel and gets
1oz finned plastic tail Ballistic Products slug to 2300 fps,
using shotgun powder.Ed



http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1443.jpg

[hubel458]

Still testing 8ga I have setup in the Enfield.
It has a long smooth barrel. Those 8ga
heavy plastic cases are great. Fire them 4 times with
no resizing. Here is pic of slugs used in 8ga..
One and two are 1015gr hollowbase. Three and 4 are
875gr hollowbase. On four the cushion base is cut off
so I can use card wad and have more room for
powder.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8slug.jpg

[hubel458]

We got our RMC 3.5" brass 12ga cases. These are turned
cases using shotgun primer. They have nice thick base,
and a good radius in the corner. Got a Brenekke OK 437 gr
slug to 2800 fps, a 540gr Hammerhead slug to 2450. got 600gr
Dixie to 2300, the 715gr RG jacketed to 2130, and a 1400gr
Darwin to 1400 plus. Tested in NEF. Shot one case 15 times
and still going strong, tight primer, with loads running about
20- 24,000 psi.I have pics of cases soon, and we also will
test these brass ones and 3.5" plastic in 12ga Encore
Prohunter..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of RMC 3.5" cases with variety of slugs,
locked on wad slugs and sabots. There are 3 of our long cases
in back for comparison. The RMC turned cases have shotgun
primer. Case # 4 has 437gr slug in BPI SABOT( finally hard sabots
in 12ga for reloading), #5 437gr Brenekke KO slug, #6 540gr
Hammerhead slug, #7 600gr Dixie hard slug, #8 RG's 715gr
jacketed, #9 750gr solid brass. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcc.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a 12ga hard discarding sabot you can get
for reloading, the BPI. From Ballistic products. In picture
is sabot with a 437gr Hornady Great Plains 50cal slug I put
in it. Also the 410 gr and 385gr Great Plains work.
Finally able to load your own instead of paying 3-5 bucks
each for loaded rounds.You can use the 500 S&W bullets also
as well as shorter 50 cal blackpowder slugs... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi.jpg

[hubel458]

Been testing the Encore with the Nef loads. Barrel breech is
one inch same as muzzle, where the NEF is 1.200".
It has dovetails cut out in bottom of the barrel for
the nuts for the forearm screws. ... At the bottom of dove tail
there is only .060" thickness. Before reaming had back one fill
welded as it was where the taper for the forcing cone ended up
with 3.5" chamber. I load it with 10 gr less powder than the NEF
on all different slugs and weights. Like the BPI sabot in 3.5"
plastic in NEF, 437 gr slug, 120gr 4227, 2400 fps, and in Encore
110gr 4227, 2270 fps. In 3.5" RMC brass case, same sabot/slug
in NEF 140gr 4227, 2600+ fps,Encore 130gr 4227, 2500.
The Encore is now 12 lbs, with hollow in butt and recesses in
forearm with lead shot.In pic you see NEF And Encore with RMC
brass cases started in chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefen.jpg

[hubel458]

See what's possible, original Savage 210 action/stock
the one I have our long case in. You can lengthen
magazine in the plastic stock for up to 3.5" RMC brass
cases, also 3.5" plastic cases. And you can open up
bottom of the action to match, and the other things
I did on the port, bolt travel, etc to feed cases.
I did mine with heavy wood stock in singleshot.
Using original plastic stock you weight the hollow butt.
Trigger assembly on these is back to leave space for this.
In picture you see stock original and stock mag longer.
Second picture is a 3.5" brass case and slug overall
length 3.7", in longer magazine. Brett in MN, who did this
first used the regular follower and mag spring ok,
it feeds ok for him. .. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smag.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/smagb.jpg

[hubel458]

Info to help loading BPI sabots in plastic,ok to use plastic
overwad over powder, but should use cardboard card and
nitro wads above that below the BPI sabot. Sabot doesn't
tear up and accuracy much better. Personally I use
cards over powder and nitro wads, And with used cases
roll crimping onto the thin edge of sabot is uneven, so with
my used cases I set the sabot and slug to right height and
just redo the 6 point star crimp real hard, and the middle of
all the crimp sectors set right on the flat nose of the slug
in the sabot. I also do the same with RG's 715gr hollowpoint
with the crimp sectors right on the hollowpoint in used cases.
Roll crimping holds RG's slug in ok but its taper of the ogive and
smoothness it doesn't open crimp all the way around when
fired. The star crimp set slug at same height so you can get
the same amount of powder. With RMC brass these are not
problems but with brass to get good feeding from mag rounding
front edge of mouth helps. Sectioned picture of RMC on right
next to our long original case to show how well it is built
thick and strong. One of cases has 20 firings, still good..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rmcs.jpg

[hubel458]

What others are doing hopping up loads and experimenting.
Brett in MN uses a Mossy 835 12ga smoothbore turkey gun, but
it is backbored 10ga size all the way out to end and has 10ga size
choke, and he uses 12ga AQ 441gr slug with locked on basewad, from
BPI. Using top rib bead sight only he can hit a pail 5 times in a row at
70 yds.Amazing accuracy for overbored barrel. He uses BPI X12X seal
plastic wad, two 1/4" white felt wads, thin card then the AQ slug,
with 65gr of Longshot getting 2200 fps. 3.5" new cases with
roll crimp.......I asked him check it with a scope on it sometime.

NFG from Greybeard and Shotgunworld with pump Mossy and 18.5"
with slug barrel. He gets a 525gr Lyman over 1800 fps with
80gr of 4759/4227 powder. Hard alloy mix Lyman and shot one through
17" of pine. Shown in the pic below it mushroomed to .800" and only
lost 8gr weight. It is a wasp waisted slug that is shot from a 12ga
regular WW12 shotcup. The skirt of the slug collapsed into the underside
of the nose. Many guys say that these are as accurate as most
other stuff used. He used 3" plastic, PGS wad over powder and
WW12 wadcup with slug it. He cuts wadcup petals back to length
of the Lyman.In pic on left you see the Lymans with hollowbase up
and the shape of it when starting out.

Ok I am going to get Lymans to test and Longshot to test.
Got to see if the Longshot will get further up in velocity
than Blue Dot. Ed

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0439.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a Savage 210 with bottom of action opened up
toward the back, to take cases with 3.5" overall length.
Slug Warrior on Shotgun World did it. Is similiar job the
Brett in MN did, but he made his opening 3.7". I measured
mine and they can be opened to 3.95". They also milled
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases. Ed

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/7339/s5000699ow4.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is information and reason for keeping and milling
the rim guides back for controlling case feeding on longer
cases.Rim guides are angled in from the sides of the opening
toward back. As the bolt pushes top case in the mag forward the
back of case and rim comes to where the tapers widen out so
the case then slides up in front of the bolt.I'm fixing up my
2nd Savage I have set up for my second 700H 3.25" belted case.
Just to see how it will work and along with other guys
doing it, get the info out to people.
This work on the stock/action can be done in a vertical
mill or good drill press. To use 3.5" plastic the opening on
the action and magazine needs 3.25", for 2.875"" brass long loaded
3.5", if 3.5" brass about 3.7", if 3.5" brass long loaded, 3.95".
By long loaded I mean a slug like the Dixie 600gr that protrudes
up to .4".The 730 gr flat wide nose slug protrudes 1/8".
You also have to widen and smooth the ramp going into the
front bridge so case lifts smoothly on the way into chamber.Ed

[hubel458]

We get asked about putting brakes on the NEF Ultra.
There is the concept called the internal brake that works
nearly as good as expansion brake, with less back noise.
Rob on AR did a couple with bunch of holes in the barrel
in the end with the last 1.5" bored out .025" where holes
go. Also many want more velocity in NEf and I added on
a barrel section to mine. Combining Ideas we add smooth
9" section of bore extension, that is same as groove diameter
and 1.5" end of that for internal brake. Eight 1/8" holes
top and same 45 degees to each side.And we have over
a 100 fps in velocity gain. And with card or wad behind load
it will seal pressure going from rifled section to smooth.
And these types of holes won't bother wads or sabots.
My extension is a foot longer and gets 150 fps extra.
No need for brake in mine as the gun is 17 lbs with extra bbl.
Here is Rob's two he fixed up, and is shooting.He has
them reamed out longer for long 3.85" case, weight added.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0231.JPG

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of porting holes in a 10ga NEF
heavy long smooth barrel. Bbl 30" and 1.080" muzzle
diameter behind the screw in choke area. This come
with slightly extended screw in choke and is first
10ga with long barrel as heavy as my NEF 12ga FH
short barrel was.. OR the short NEF 10 gauges
with heavy barrel..It came with full and mod chokes.
The other 10ga I tested earlier, only .960" at muzzle.
I cut choke off and put it back in leaving the barrel
an open bore for slugs and leaving an area 1.2" long
for an internal brake to drill all the holes in like
Rob did with NEFs in his picture. Now the 1.2" long
area where holes are is bigger than needed for 10 ga
so a reamer in the making will solve that and solve a
major big bore project for me and others who asked
me about using the short NEF 10ga for upgrade, which
I didn't encourage putting all that work on a short
barrel gun, with the amounts of powder that will be
burnt in....are you ready.......THE 8GA FH.......
I have 8ga FH loads tested in reworked Enfield.....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10brake.jpg

[hubel458]

More info on the heavy barreled gun we plan on
making 8 gauge from. Nef SB2 103, 30" barrel,
regular stock. 220 bucks. 100 bucks for shop to
ream out to 8 ga smoothbore. Needs the 80 dollar
thumbhole stock. Nice deal for a modern 8ga, using
heavy duty plastic 3.3" long cases. I fired 6-8000
ft lb loads in one I made on Enfield, 4 times reloaded
without resizing cases.
Here is other project suggested by Boomie
on the AR big bore forum, the 16GA FH.
Cases made by me from bmg brass. Took 5 swagings, and
two turnings on my case spinner lathe.Two Annealings
Got couple cases made, in picture our 3.5" case and factory
16ga plastic case slug load. I'm getting test gun working
now and as for a supply of cases you all will have to
get with RMC if you want to rechamber a 16ga..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16ls.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my NEF 12GA FH as it is now,
A while back I got tired of short barrel and
added a foot on to it. Used breech end of left over
Savage and a sleeve. Lined up rifling and it has
same twist and number of rifling. Hard way to do
it. No need for rifling, or extra line up work.
Run many loads and it adds 150 fps with VV110,
4759, and 4227 powders. Adds about a 100 with
Blue Dot, and HS 7.

Next one will be done different and easier.
Next one will be a smoothbore add on piece of
groove diameter, 10-12 inches long, make it one
piece, 1 or 1 1/16" threads,about 1.2" diameter.
Threaded 1.5" long on original barrel, and into
add on piece, and will look like a brake and you
could put in internal brake in the end.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/neflb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture Stevens Revelation 350 16ga
now a 16GA FH. It got a 385 gr to 2000,
which is good for gun without a real heavy
barrel. I lengthened chamber for the
3.5" brass cases pictured that I made from
BMG brass. Anyone doing this can have cases
made by RMC. Gun is weighted to 11 lbs.
Action can handle more if barrel heavier. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/16rev.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the bolt for my big gun, the 700HE.
It is holding a 700HE long case. The caseholder extraction system
can headspace a BMG rimless case,no belt, so you could
put on a 12ga barrel, straighten case more, from .700 to .729"
and have the rimless 12ga. Could straighten case for a
.750" bore, even to 10ga(.775") with a little thinning of the
top one inch of the case. Experimenting is interesting
to say the least. 700 slugs in pic are 1000gr Woodleigh,
1000gr PA, 825gr Copperhead Custom(CC), 770gr FP CC,
1000gr HP CC, 825gr HP CC..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/vulcanb.jpg

[RagingBullPa]

can it be converted for concealed carry, it would make a heck of an assault weapon, but that would be more fodder for Osama Obama and his Clique of anti-gun rejects, to which you can add Caroline Kennedy to

[hubel458]

There is a new heavy barreled rifled slug gun out,
the Rossi Model S12 1230S. It will handle our heavier
loads like the NEF. And it can have chamber lengthened
for 3.5" plastic and RMC brass 12ga cases. Ed



http://www.rossiusa.com/imagesMain/H_S121230S.jpg

[RagingBullPa]

are these puppies legal in all states, you know New Jersey and New York , and Massachusetts most likely not i believe they are some of the worst as far as gun regs go , but there are probably worse , its a shame too such a nice piece of hardware

[hubel458]

Wherever they have deer/hog/etc hunting allowing
shotgun calibers, rifled barrels are legal on any that
I know of. Here in MI and Midwest rifled is ok.
As far as power, there is no limit I know of on
what power a shotgun caliber puts out.Ed

[hubel458]

The BPI sabot is tending toward small diameter.
With a .512" slug it measures . 727"---So I run slug
into die and reduced it .020". It is lead, swaged easy.
Shot a BPI sabot with 385gr Great plains slug in 700HE
great big gun pictured above. That Great plains slug
was reduced .020". With 300gr of super fast ball
powder blend in 3.85" case got over 4500.

Using slugs with locked on bases and RG's hollowbase
jacketed slug in 3.5" RMC brass cases in the 1887
Win levergun. RG's 670 gr HB- 2500 . Brenekke KO
435gr- 2700, Lightfield 460 gr- 2600 . Even got
a 385gr in BPI sabot to target straight.Levergun has
34" smooth barrel and with chamber for 3.5" long
cases it is run as singleshot. Barrel is a tight smoothbore
going from .726" to .722". Took out lifter and other
stuff and put in a bottom style extractor I built that
is operated by the lever at bottom of opening
stroke. Then take cases out with fingers, thus able to
handle long cases in a short action.Makes a real old timey,
neat looking, single shot blaster. Also have testing all done
and loads set for 12ga Encore. It is set up for 3.5" plastic
and brass cases for strong loads. I like to sell it to someone
who likes the style. If interested contact me.Ed

[RagingBullPa]

generates a bit over 3000ftlbs of muzzle energy but falls off dramatically because of lack of ballistic coeficient properties and the accuracy depends on the rifling but it isn't impressive to me at all compared to the rifles i own and shoot, but it would be nice to say i own one just for conversation and the ooo's and aaaahs heard when you pull it out at the local range oops forgot can't shoot shotguns or slugguns at a public game commission range unless it is designated for it in pennsylvania most are but some aren't, and many people are just being idiots would cry and complain anyway , but it would be the center of attention

[hubel458]

If you can load to get 50-100% more energy, helping
for better kills on deer/hogs, and accuracy(not 1000 yd kind)
gets game at 125 yds, and speed falls off fast at longer
ranges for safety in crowded, built up areas, you have
accomplished what the shotgun only hunting rules were
set up for. Safety. But yet hunter adds to that
better kills. Around here the crowded/built up areas have
biggest numbers by far of deer. Ed

[RagingBullPa]

just plain common sense not safety , you don't need a cannon to shoot deer they can be killed with a bowand arrow or atlatl, marksmanship thats the key , best shots i know are pennsylvania woodchuck hunters or several of the long range shooters from my area right here in northeastpa, in texas caliber of choice is a224caliber texas trophy hunter round, marksmanship kills , singlesnipers put the fear of God into entire companies with Markmanship, but i agree for close encounters and for safety the urbanites should use the sluggun i wouldn't want one of them guys taking a pot shot at me especially if i was traveling through A ChicagoIllinois suburb with my truck with McCain - Palin Stickers on it that i forgot to take off :D

[hubel458]

Before I posted about testing a NEF in 10ga with
a medium heavy barrel. The newer one is better.
It is the one I showed the ported barrel previously.
I did some 10ga FH testing in that newer, real
heavy barreled, NEF 10ga, that is going to soon be an
8GA FH, after reaming out. The internal brake set up
on the end as shown in picture above works great.
It stopped all of the muzzle rise and cut recoil
Gun now is 14 lbs and has thumbhole stock.
Top load with 3.5" plastic case, 765gr slug,
135gr of 4227, 2200 fps, 8200 ft lbs.Ed

[RagingBullPa]

Test it out on his show he does segments every now and then and being from Michigan you have an in with him plus it wouldn't hurt the exposure, never know he might want to take it on a hunting trip to France

[hubel458]

Maybe we can connect with him sometime.
28GA FH new slug.. The Lyman cast 20ga slug made to
fit in a 20ga shotcup for 20 ga slug hunters, works perfect
in the 28GA FH brass case. It is a hollowbases hourglass
shaped 362 gr slug. No wadcups or wads needed, loaded
right on powder. It is the slug you buy the molds to cast
your own or you can buy them from guys who cast for
sale. I use slow rifle powders in case so no air space,
they fill to the slugs. I got 2900 with moderate case
expansion and it hits target straight on, from a smooth
28ga heavy barrel on 695 Mossberg bolt action.

Other new info on primers. Some of the guns can't have the
firing pins or hammers beefed up easy like my Enfields
With some magnum primers with hard cups you get delayed
ignition if hammer doesn't have perfect hit and high strength.
One test with a small diameter case/bore that any primer will
ignite slow powders fine with good firing pin spring would
show delayed ignition with shotgun battery cup style 209
CCI Mag and 209 Federal Mag primers, and when I tested them
in cases with just the primers, they only put in a small dent
when they fired, but WIN 209, REM 209, RWS 209(used in
Brenekkes, Lightfields, Hastings), dented in much more when
firing just the primer. And with the smaller bore you had fire out
the end of the barrel, so you could compare primer strength
visually. The REM 209 was as good or better than CCI and FED
209 Mag Primers. The WIN and RWS was close behind. We put
the REM in same case/gun where that we had delayed ignition
and it fired instantly, no delay. The two mag primer brands have
the primer insert in cup rounded a lot and little harder metal,
and the other 3 metal cup insert is almost flat and slightly
softer. It is easier to get a better more solid strike and dent.
I always figured mag primers were best in our hopped
up shotgun loads but not anymore. It took a while but I finally got
everything around for proper test. Hopped up loads(regular also)
we have talked about, use REM 209, where the firing pins
and hammers can't be strengthened. Even loads with Longshot,
Blue Dot, Steel, HS6-7, etc.
Hope this helps.....ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture my NEF, soon to be, 8ga gun.
It weighs 15 lbs. The hollow butt and hollows
in the forearm are weighted. It has a neat recoil
barrel ring I added so forearm stays put.
It has internal brake on barrel that I picture
earlier in thread with the porting holes.
Second picture is a Lyman 520 gr slug on the right
that we are testing . They go in regular 12ga shotcups,
and many folks have good accuracy with them, even
in smooth bores. They are hollowbase nose-heavy
design. These are the ones you cast your own.
And there are guys casting some for sale.
You see two in wadcups on the right.
On the left is my prototype of the Lyman
style, of 900gr for our 8GA FH. Going to get a
mold made. The base of it will fit the 8ga shotcup
used in the kiln gun loads, and the front will be our
smoothbore 8ga size, .832-835". I designed this
as the flat ended kiln slug without a hollow
base and heavy in the front, wasn't designed
to give 100yd accuracy in a smoothbore. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8nef.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/lyman8.jpg

[hubel458]

The picture is some aluminum cored jacketed slugs

RG made, weighing 385 gr. Full .730" diameter, hollowpoint,

and one I filled nose with glue gun. Fairly streamlined. 3600 in

the Savage with our long case..Slug is nice and long,

1.22" HP and 1.4" with plastic I put in the nose.

In Nef with RMC 3.5" brass case 2700, 3.5" plastic 2500. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/rgal.jpg

[hubel458]

RIP on AR forums been testing starter powders loads, with
shotgun primers,with Blue Dot starter and HBMG main load. And
I just tested some variety of ones myself.
Doing some testing with starter powder, 15gr Blue Dot, with
slower powders that fill the cases with minimum wads.
Tested in 3.5" RMC case in NEF with shotgun primer,
with 36" added to barrel.Remember I have extra foot of bbl.

These 4 top loads expanded case, where I check it, just above
thick base section to .811" from .807" resized.

1000gr jacketed, 230gr HBMG, 1800 fps, 7200 ft lbs,
with 1/8" card and 1/4" felt wad.

715gr jkt, 270gr HBMG, 2200, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

600gr Dixie, 250 gr Retumbo, 2400, 7600 ft lbs, 1/8" card.

385gr jkt AL core, 250 gr RL25,2900, 7200 ft lbs.
This is faster than lighter loads in NEF, using 4227 powder.

Now the starter powder loads, which a few guys like, increase
powder speeds so that HBMG acts like RL25. In first example,
with 1000 gr in RMC case you couldn't use 230gr of RL25
as that would expand RMC brass too much and stick the case.
A few guys have found that slow powder, with starter
powder is easiest for 1000gr and heavier loads.

On another note, I've heard around the grapevine that if
enough of us ask for NEF to make available a 12ga Ultra with
a 28" rifled bull barrel that they would do it.Start calling
folks, maybe do some good. Just tell them these new sabot
and fullbore slug loads need more barrel to get the velocity
out of them. 1-866-776-9292. Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 28GA FH brass case with the 350gr
Lyman cast slug. It is the slug you cast to use
originally in 20ga shot cups, for slug hunting.
It is nose heavy and will work in smooth bores.
Brass 3.25" cases from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. It
will work in NEF/H&R 28ga modern break action guns
that cost 150 bucks, 26" barrel, you lengthen chamber
for the brass case. Good hunting loads would
be 2000 fps and the gun with a little weight added
and good pad would handle it fine. Had a few guys ask
about 28ga slug shooting, here is away..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/28lyman.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a double projectile load that would make a
good defense load. Two Brenekkes doubled up in RMC
case in the NEF. 85 gr of 4227 pushing 2 one
ounce KO slugs about 1600. Bottom slug has seal.

Also found a way to adapt extra slugs to 10ga. A
515 gr Lyman slug for use in 12ga wadcup, in my
10ga, using thickwall 10ga BPI steel no slit wadcup
shortened and Lyman bottomed out in it, so it
is like a discard on impact sabot slug. Like Lightfield
and Hastings. I shaved the bottom diameter of Lyman
so it would fit tight. Similar deal for 16ga using BPI 16ga
no slit heavy shot cup and 20ga Lyman. Now we have it
so that 2 Lymans can fit 10,12,16,20,28 ga....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bren2.jpg

PS- I ask all of you for a favor. Would you please go
to the thehighroad.us forums, join in and support them.
The owner has had original Highroad domain stolen from
him and he is in court to get it back. He is in
the right and if you folks show up,good moral support.
And if you can stand it until court rules stay away from
the first highroad and ask your friends to do the same.

[hubel458]

Here is 12ga prototype cushioned base sabot I put
together to show how heavy of powder seal
and heavy cushion base that is needed. That
eliminates the blowouts and damage that was
happening to sabots unless I put a card
under sabot. Just used a Brenekke seal/cushion
base, epoxied to bottom of sabot. Even fired one
and it got out the barrel and 437gr slug hit
target straight. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hsab.jpg

[hubel458]

I glued up 3 of 12ga prototype sabots. At 25yds( the 50yd range
is in the water and snow) And the three with 437gr .512"
slugs I did one 2" group with peep sights and bad eyes.
Running about 2400 fps from RMC case in the NEF 12GA FH
Shot 3 of my 28ga FH with Lyman 360gr at 2100, from
the Enfield 28GA FH, and got same size group.Real windy
when testing . Going cold and ready to snow again.
Shot a 600 grain Dixie hardened heatreated slug, in Savage
in our long case at 2900 though two-- 1/4" steel plates with
2" of wood between them. Made big hole.Ed

[hubel458]

Before it got cold again got little more testing done.
I shot 8ga Lyman 900gr wasp-style slug out of
the Enfield at 2350. I made it from heat treated
lead REM kiln gun slugs, and it went through 6 foot
of hardwood slabs in my backstop. Hit target square,
behind chrono, which is great from smoothbore.
It is hollowbase and seems very stable.And real hard.
I shot 3 shot group, with 12ga 525gr Lyman, in 87
smoothbore long barrel levergun, At 25 yards they
all made hole like cloverleaf. Used 3.5" RMC brass, with
Lyman in a WW12-114 shotcup, going 2100.Now my
87 smooth barrel is .722" at muzzle, .726" at breech,
so it gives tight support to shotcup and Lyman slug,
for fairly accurate load.....Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of one of RIP's NEFs 12GA FH, with
a Vias brake installed. He had smith ream out a
50cal one to let 12ga slugs pass through...Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1845.jpg

[hubel458]

Here are some results( had 1 nice day) with 8 gauge and
10ga light slug loads of my testing. I call them my real
big bore varmint loads. A 770 gr slug in 8ga fired in
Enfield at 2400 all 3 shots nearly touching at 20 yds.
A 515 gr Lyman, NEF 10ga at 2400, same tight group
at 20yds. Lyman is originally for 12ga, but is fit in
10ga thickwall BPI shotcup cut off and slug glued in so
it is like a impact discarding sabot. Both smoothbores.

Smaller varmint load. NEF rifled 12ga with RG's 385gr
aluminum cored jacketed HP slug at 2700, 2 overlapping
and one half inch away, using RMC 3.5" case. Here is pic
the 3 slugs for comparison. First is 770gr in 8ga wadcup,
second is 515 Lyman in 10ga wadcup, third is the
12ga 385gr HP with aluminum core. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bbvar.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is what a 600gr super hardened Dixie slug
at 29-3000 plus does to two mild steel plates with
2" wood between them. Fired from our long case
in the Savage.Two plates are soft mild steel.
In hole nice and round. Out, in back plate jagged.
Anyone interested in the 12ga Encore
with 3.5" chambers, that I tested loads in,
it is on Gunbroker..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bhole.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is my 12GA FH Savage 210 with thumbhole
stock, I put on in place of first one that cracked.
Along with weight and heavy barrel handles recoil
great. It is a Boyd and came inleted for Savage
112, and I re-did inleting to fit 210 and
heavy barrel,and got rid of monte carlo
outline.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/sav12th.jpg

[DogYeller]

Ed, has any one done any thing with the Mossberg SSI?

BTW; I look forward to your posts.

[hubel458]

No one that I know about. I've never seen one only
bad pictures. Don't know if it has a heavy bull barrel
like the NEF. If so it would do same loads.Ed

[DogYeller]

I bought one with a .223 and a slug barrel, just before Mossberg dropped the line. And I was just wondering if it would be a candidate for an upgrade.

[hubel458]

DogYeller- Ok, I like the style of them, what I could see
in pictures. If you tell me the exact outside diameter
of the 12ga muzzle, I can tell you what you can do and
how heavy you can load slugs for it. Glad to help.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of RIP's two 12GA FH NEFs.
Both are the 12ga Ultra Slug Guns.
One has Vias brake, other expansion chamber.
He calls it his golf ball launcher. Ed


http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1870.jpg

[hubel458]

I found a shotgun primer that will ignite rifle powders,
like RL15-19, IMR 4064,4198, etc. With regular shotgun
primers I had to use Blue Dot starter.
But not with these.....They are the industrial
shotgun primers used in the 8ga kiln gun cases. I use
these cases with basecup reduced in my 8 gauges.
When I set up first 8ga I fired the primers only to test
firing function(cases came with primer), then I put
regular 209 primers in to test loads, with 4759 powder.
Found box of WIN paper case kiln 3oz loads and took one
apart and noticed it had 94gr of some ball powder.
I wondered what powder is and how a regular shotgun primer
could ignite that, based on our need for starter powder
using regular rifle powders. So I fired that industrial
primer and flame and sparks came out of 8ga NEF barrel
2-3 feet. Put a regular primer in same case and flame
just a few inches. So I took REM kiln case with original
REM industrial primer and 2-3 feet of flame,and put regular
primer in and just few inches of flame. If anyone got
info on th powder used and how to get these primers,
let us know. I took some out of 8ga and put in 12ga plastic.
Using these hairy industrial primers today fired 180gr
of RL-15, in 12GA FH NEF, in 3.5" plastic cases with
437gr Brenekke KO slug. Got perfect ignition, no starter.
140gr with 600gr dixie, perfect ignition.
Also I have the 12ga Encore that we tested loads
in, on Gunbroker, in shotgun singleshot section.Ed

[hubel458]

I always felt that if some company would make powders like 7383
available it would be great. 7383 ignites fine with regular
shotgun primers in 12ga, but it is surplus and only a few of
us have it.It is a powder that has a lot of the deterrent inside
the of the material, not all near the outside like 99% of
all other powders whether spherical, tubular, or flake.
This allows easier ignition, but yet the deterrent still can
control the speed. Well the new RE-17 just out for 2 days
is setup like that. The surface of the RE-17 grains is
more porous than RE15, so that fact allows better ignition
even though a slower powder, and along with fact that company
got most deterent inside it still regulates speed.
Today I fired with regular REM and WIN primers in
plastic and RMC cases, a whole bunch of loads of RE-17,
with no hesitation or squibs or misfires. Loads ranged from
437 gr slugs to 750gr slugs today. All loads burnt clean
and I got in RMC case one of RG's 715gr jkt slugs to 2300
with 160 gr of RE-17. Using plastic you must have a strong
roll crimp with slug and wads tight.....Whoopee....Ed

[hubel458]

I shot couple loads with regular primer with RE-17
and 1040 gr slug in 12GA FH NEF, and it does great.
Tested loads that were cooled outside a while.Perfect ignition.
I fired loads RE-17 8ga plastic,in my 8GA FH on new NEF long
heavy barrel that was a 10 ga and RE-17 is great. No hesitation,
it fires off as good in 8ga as the 4759. Remember
I couldn't get good ignition in 8g with 4227, but so far
RE-17 is magic. In 8 ga all it would hold under the 8ga REM
wadcup with 770 gr slug is 200 gr of RE-!7, with the
wadcup pressed down, compressed real hard,good crimp,
and it really bellers.2400 plus.Going by case
expansion about 20k pressure. Which don't bother
those one piece compression molded super strong
8ga REM cases. You must have real tight proper
roll crimp in plastic cases and good tight
taper crimp or rolled in crimp in groove
in the brass cases. In RMC brass I size it so slugs
have to be shoved in with press.In all of this
brass and plastic, no airspace use wads when needed.

And this RE-17 doesn't break up the kernels when powder
gets to a certain point, like the 7383 does, causing burning
rate to speed up more than what it was designed for.
I tested 7383 in my 700HE, and when up to 35-40k it's
pressure went up fast, much more than linear progression.
I still like 7383 at shotgun pressures, but I really like
RE-17.Just great fun to use slower powder, so that
we don't have to worry about fast, high peak pressures,
but yet get large volumne, pressure curve for good velocity.

Ok- for those who want to get into the 12GA FH and get
the long strong 3.85 inch cases Rob on AR got some made,
email him to deal to get some- garnickrob@aol.com
He can also tell you where to get reamer.Ed.

[hubel458]

Here is picture of another fellas work on AR forum,
of NEF 12GA FH, factory thumbhole stock
and a brake he built, with wide slots in top and round
ports on the sides. He is testing heavy slugs.Ed




http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/IM12Even/IMG_0509.jpg

[hubel458]

Here's picture of solid turned 12ga slugs that Rob makes.
They are flat on one end and hollowpoint on other.
They can be shot either direction. Aluminum ones
are 346gr, brass 1080gr........If you need any
contact him. He, RIP, and others on AR are testing
them with different powders. I have gotten similiar brass
ones to 1900 in NEF with RMC case, with
140 gr the new RL-17. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1873.jpg

[hubel458]

Heavy brass slug testing-----
RIP'S components in first picture-
15gr Blue Dot starter, thin plastic separator,
230gr HBMG, thin plastic under slug,
and 1087gr brass slug; in a RMC 3.5"
brass case, fired in his great looking,
braked NEF 12ga FH Ultra, got him
1812 fps average. Barrel and brake
are 27" total length. Great work. Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1883.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_1880.jpg

[hubel458]

One of our testers, Bret in MN, got the BPI Sabot with
500gr Hornady .500 slug up to the good speed listed
on BPI"s loading sheet, using shotgun powders. I could
get them there with my loads using much larger amounts
of rifle powders. He tested 3.5" Federal plastic cases in
his Savage 210 with 3.5" chamber and the 28" heavy barrel
he put on. With 50gr of Longshot(max load for all modern
guns) he got 2550 fps, with 500gr in sabot. He use two
BPGS gas seals fitted together over the powder, then
a FS12 Flexseal wad, then a 1/4" cork wad, then the sabot.

Then a good strong roll crimp with drill/drillpress crimper.
This load is at mag shotgun pressures by case expansion
measurements and BPI's 46gr load tested at 12,500 psi.
He also did one with one BPGS and two Flexseals and had
200 fps less.He had tried other combinations seals/wads
and with same amount of powder and got lower yet.
He also went up with the powder, with seal/wads that worked
the best and got about 3000 fps, but the plastic cases
stuck and wouldn't eject easy. I will be testing same
seal and wad column in a few days, in my NEF with long
barrel to compare results.I thank Bret, he is a real
good experimenter and idea man. Everybody is trying
like crazy to get that 500gr saboted slug up to big
game gun velocities with shotgun powder and thanks to
BPI"s supply of the right components it has happened.Ed

[hubel458]

Rob on AR is building a 12GA FH double on a Zabala Double
10 gauge frame. It has the Greener crossbolt. He cut off
barrels to make a 4" long monoblock double to screw a
pair of heavy 12ga rifled Pacnor barrels into. He reamed out
monoblock section and threaded it. His barrels are
1.116" at the breach, .97" at muzzle and 22" total length.
Barrels threaded into monoblock with a 15/16" x 32 thread.
In the pics it is partly done and he will put in the ribs
and integral sight rib and regulate for accuracy.
It will be about 14.5 lbs when done he says.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0285.JPG

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0286.JPG

[hubel458]

Some more BPI seal and sabot testing.
First of all both Bret and I have heavy tight fit barrels
and his barrel on the Savage is faster twist so it took
him 50 gr of Longshot to get what BPI got with
looser barrels and slow twist at 46 gr of Longshot.
For non heavy barreled guns only go to 46 gr.
I did a bunch of tests in my NEF long barrel with long
chamber. My store didn't have any 500gr .500" XTP slugs
so I used some 420gr .512" dia lead Great plains in the
BPI sabot. Using 2 BPGS powder seals, a BPI Flexseal, a
cork wad in 3.5" new Federal cases, roll crimped, I got
2800 fps with 420gr slug. I tried 4 other powder seals,
2 cards, a Remington, a Win, and a odd one, all with the
Flexseal and lost velocity. I fixed up my crimper so it would
roll the plastic down and over inside edge of sabot, as before
it would turn plastiC in too sharp and get some of the crimp
outside the sabot top. If sabot was too low so that the plastic
crimp went clear down to the slug I got high pressure signs.
I also did same loads in used 3.5" REM cases ok.
Now, I thought I should have more velocity, so I swaged the
.512" 420GR slug down to .500" like they say the sabot is for,
AND I GOT OVER A 120 FPS MORE. Everytime. I also used
Alliant Steel powder and got all the same results, using
60gr. It is easier on cases. I also substituted the doubled up
BPGS powder seals and the Flexseal with 520gr Lyman in
place of the seal and cushion on the WW12 wadcup the Lyman
fits in, with some RL-17 loads, of 150gr, and got over 200fps more
that the original WW12 wadcup gave with the Lyman.

Velocity secret is to have the perfect sealing setup with
slug/sabot combo that is NOT too tight. Only tight enough
to get accuracy. The cork seems to protect the sabot
base ok on the shotgun powder loads, and not needed
on the RL-17 loads, which is a easier accelerating powder
and without cork helps make room for the RE-17. I think I
will get increases in the brass RMC cases, with RE-17, with
the BPGS doubled and a Flexseal in place of cards and wads.
We will know soon.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the breach of 8ga FH NEF with
case in it, to show that the gun is strong enough
for 8ga. I was a 10ga NEF. Has 29" effective barrel
length, and the internal expansion step at muzzle
for the ports that stops muzzle climb and reduces
recoil. Which along with thick pad and thumbhole
stock makes for easy shooting.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a 12ga size drawn brass case that was
made back in the 80s. Case is for the CAWS weapon system.
Case is belted, and it and the gun operated at 25,000 psi.
Its bore size is between 12 and 10 ga size, but the od of
the drawn case would let it start in 12ga chambers, so
they added belt so it couldn't go all the way in
to regular shotguns. Notice the thick sides and corner
near the base.Heavy enough for 25,000 psi. They loaded
it with big buckshot and tested other projectiles also.
They had a plastic card over shot and filler and rolled
over brass mouth for crimp. Ed

http://cartridgecollectors.org/cmo/cmo06juna.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a NEF breach barrel section that I threaded
monoblock style for a .585" cal barrel, to make a NEF 585HE.
It goes on a SB2 10-12ga alloy, super strong frame. Its
OD is 1.210" and the barrel that screws into it will be tapered
to match contour and it will be 1.00" at muzzle, at 32" long.
I know these are strong enough as my 8GA FH testing shows..
Later will do couple more with heavy barrels for 28GA FH, etc,
as all the break action 28 gauges I've looked at have too
thin of muzzles for our slower, powder loads.I'll have 3 of these
that fit one SB2 frame I have here.This makes switch barrels
big power fun.Ed.

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nefmono.jpg

[hubel458]

I fired mono-blocked NEF this week with a 585HE 32"
barrel and the gun is weighted to 15 lbs. Thick pad.
I have cone breech as this case is belted with thick base.
I'll have a pic of gun later. Gun is still tight after testing.
I can take out cases with my fingers as they don't stick.
First 650gr, with no extractor. The HBMG, WC-860,AA8700,
Retumbo, Magpro, RE25, W-780 loads come out of the chamber,
with my fingers.If I tip gun up they fall out.
Top speed with RE25 and W-780 is over 2400. Now I knew what
to load them at because I have tested this case in 3 other guns.
I have all the different powders and bullets tested.
This is example of a case extracting easy,
due to proper side taper that my 585 has....Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the Zabala that was a 10ga double,
that Rob has monoblocked in heavy rifled barrels, showing
the quarter sight rib he has made, fitted to the gun.
He has it chambered for 12GA FH long case.
Really beautiful work and gun.Ed

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/DSC_0362.JPG

[hubel458]

I found odd steel block with a square cornered
1.0" by 1.5" hole through it. It solves a big
machining problem for me in doing a 4bore.
And I happen to have some 1" by 1.5" steel.
The rest of machining I can do, and I have
the levers, hammer, trigger, etc. But the parts
and layout are not going to copy the Wickcliff.
To many problems with all the parts riding on the
breachblock and the crowded stubby extractor.
Will be my own design with hammer and
trigger behind breachblock. An extractor similiar
to Ruger and its shape a cross between WIN 1885
and a Farquarson.In pic you can see drawn outline
on the block of the shape it will have.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stblb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is the finished NEF mono-blocked gun with
the 585 barrel, 32" long, 1 to 22 twist.
Chambered for my 585HE belted case.
I used a SB2 10ga action which is same as the 12ga
Ultra actions.I cut it off to make a 4" long monoblock.
and threaded it 1 inch by 14tpi. I'm going to do extra
ones 28GA FH,others.. My 585 is best 585,as the info will
show. I have a 45-70 extractor coming to rework for it.
I am firing first bunchs of test loads without
an extractor, and loads with 650 gr bullets at 2450 and
750 gr bullets at 2250 didn't need the extractor. They
come out with my fingers. Over 8000 ft lbs.I got thumbhole
stock now, because those with higher velocities of 2-400fps more,
were harder to hold on to grip. Trigger guard banged the fingers.
And higher velocity cases come out with a pry from my thumbnail.
Here is picture of rear of gun and the fixins(bullets/cases).
You see a fired case in the chamber, and I have cone breach
setup so that case is in same relationship to chamber as it
is in my three 585HE bolt guns. And is why I can get cases
out with my fingers.OR tip gun up. The hairier loads of
650 at 2650, 750 at 2450 is 10,000 ft lbs. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef585.jpg

[hubel458]

Here's pic of my to be 4bore falling block with
the block to be the breech setting in the hole.
Breach needs trough on the top yet, but now
it is done for exact width and height and the
bottom recess and link hookup is done, since
the picture was taken..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/stbl.jpg

[longdistanceoperator]

WAS THAT A SAVAGE 210 OR 210F .... WHEN YOU SAY ITS A HEAVY BARREL DID YOU CHANGE BARRELS ON IT OR IS THAT THE ORIGINAL..


http://www.gunownerstv.com/1212.jpg[/quote]

[hubel458]

I changed the barrel. Barre now same size as
reciever at breech and 1.1" at the miuzzle.
It was a 210F I think. Original rifled, new rifled.
Original barrel won't hold our slow powder loads
down the barrel toward the muzzle.

The falling block is coming along. I'm not copying my
first models that were a scale up of the Wickcliff.
Complete new design, mainly in shape and type of stock
used, the bridge and reciever setup, and trigger/hammer
behind the block. Block will have no curved outside
shapes, front to back. Pics soon with the stock......

Used wadcutter style 8ga slug made by cutting off part
of a long nosed one in picture, in my 8ga with RE-17
powder.. Over 2300 fps. Slug is a zinc slug from kiln
gun factory load. With nose cut back and hollow I put
in the base it was 800 gr. It had a .20" wadcutter nose
on it.Good tribute to Elmer. The other ones in picture,
just with nose cut off and solid base and is 870 gr.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8z.jpg

[hubel458]

Another couple months maybe 4 bore/ga will fire.Just have a
chunk of shaft on front to simulate barrel to
get a stock fit. Got to profile barrel, thread barrel,
fit in hammer,trigger, couple bottom bolts into action,
design and mount extractor.. some springs, firing pin, etc.
May change/lengthen fulcrum on lever so it doesn't have to
move so far. Lever is held closed by little feramic magnet
in grip. Checking on different shapes for lever. When breach is
lowered the lever stays open due to weight of breach
block. Block moves smooth, no rattling around.
Guys-,I need some Vulcan 50cal V-50 thumbhole laminated stocks.
If there are any used extra ones around let me know.
This way of doing a FB in one piece thumbhole stock will work
for 12GA FH with an action about a 1/4" narrower.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbc.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbt.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of 4bore/ga action with lever open and
breach down.You see bottom of breach block.The action
and barrel will be held in stock with 2 bolts into bottom
of action one bolt in barrel ahead of action and a recoil
barrel ring in front end of stock. Didn't have to add
any recoil lugs, as the wide back of the action is
the recoil lug. This is now called the Hubel Falling
Block Action. Second picture is of the 4bore cases
and 2000gr slugs, with 20mm case I make 4bore/ga cases
from and the 30-06 for comparison.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/hufbo.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/naval.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga wad column using two
BPI BPGS seals, Flexseal,cork, and sabot. Bret in
MN has, in a long heavy rifled barreled Savage
like mine, gotten 28-3000 fps with a 500 gr XTP bullet
in the sabot with a 3.5" plastic case. And it extracts
ok with the Savage bolt action extractor.
He is using slow shotgun powder, Alliant Steel.I can't
get that high in my NEF 12GA FH and make the
extractor work with the Alliant Steel powder loads.
The NEF handles pressures fine, just doesn't extract
like a bolt action Savage 210. Using RE17 without cork,
I get 28-2900, with max of much slower RE17 with 420gr
slug in the sabot, in NEF The case shown was fired with the
RE17 load like that....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/wcpl.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of NEF I've set up with my
700H 3.25" belted case to show the versatility
of NEFs and my 700. The 700 cal barrel monoblocked
like I did the 585HE. I put monblocked barrel on
the same SB2 frame that I have my 12GA FH on as
it has the beefed up firing pin for big primers
use in our 12GA FH case and in my 700H case.

Other projects coming.I found a heavy 16ga barrel
to monoblock in one to test the 16GA FH cartridge
I made. It is the 3.5" brass case mentioned
earlier in the thread.

Also a bunch of us are going to take 500 S&W
NEFs and put my 499 HE case in them, with just a
chamber job. It is a case that will get the zip
in 500gr slugs. NEFs are great guns to experiment
with and along with reasonable costs, we don't
have to worry about case length. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nef700h.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a falling block a guy on Weaponsforum
has picked up to finish. The fellow who started building
it laid it aside for awhile and the new guy is going to finish
in BMG. It has 50cal bbl on it. Looks easily big enough
for 12ga,10ga,8ga, my 700s. The lever on left is cocking
mechanism, The tube in back is a firing striker and spring
and it hits the hammer block you see in the back of the
breach block, which hits firing pin ahead of it in breach.
It is the the only one like it. They've put a lot of work
into it, especially the hammer block striker setup.Ed

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/ultramagbrion/MY%20WEAPONS/50customandScarborough022.jpg

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/ultramagbrion/MY%20WEAPONS/50customandScarborough016.jpg

[hubel458]

In related big bore work we got a Montana Rifle
Co, PH action setup in my 700H 3.25" case. Fired
test load of 825gr at 3000 fps. This was just one
test load. Normal max loads are 825gr at 2850 and
1000gr at 2700.Hunting loads 24-2500, First PH fired
outside the factory.It is in first picture.
PH will work for any big case and my 585HE.And
if anyone looking at big actions for 12ga FH,
here is picture of MRC PH with a 3.5" 12ga case
partly into action. The PH cam be used for 12ga with
action and rails opened like I did my 700H in Enfield.
And a little changing on the bolt face and extractor
In 12 ga it still would have 60% of front lugs contacting
and you'd add bearing lug surface to bolt handle base so
it would handle same pressures as Savage 210.
And 3.5" with average length 12ga slug would feed from the
magazine. Our longer case would work with port opened
and some mag work. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph700gun.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ph12ga.jpg

[hubel458]

Got single stack mag figured out for 12GA FH and
my 700H 3.25 in PH. I fit a bolt action 12ga
box mag and its follower and spring
inside the PH mag box. Easy to fit in metal box,
and permanently mounted to metal and floorplate.
Holds 2 down. That way feed lips already a working
design. And opened back of 12ga box for longer case
like I did with my 700 in Savage 210. Also work
for anyone doing a PH in 12ga FH if they aren't
loaded too long or with 3.5" RMC cases. Using most
cast 12ga bullets like Dixies, the overall length with
3.5 brass is 3.9" and fits 4.05" box ok. Here is picture
PH from bottom showing its big size.You can see in pic
there still is room to make box longer yet.
And the feed port can be longer.Montana Rifle has
great action here with lots off room and strength.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbot.jpg

[hubel458]

I got barrel on the 4ga/bore falling block gun.
Barrel 32" long, 1.87" breech, gun is 27 lbs.
Notice breech block is down and huge hole in barrel.
Maybe shoulder cannon is the right term for it.
It is all inleted into thumbhole laminated Vulcan
50 cal stock, of which I need more, if anyone
knows where there are any. 4 bore cases shown,
next to the gun, 2 with 2000gr slugs,
and I'll use a big ammomaster press for them..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of the front end of the 4bore,
showing a 2000gr slug protuding out. Simulating
stop action photo work, as if anyone wwould be brave
enough to put a camera out in front of it
when it fired. Will have it firing by fall.
I plan on using hollowbase lead slugs of
about 1600gr, as it is a smoothbore. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbul.jpg

[hubel458]

got 3" chambered 12ga set up to test loads with RE-17.
Many guys want loads for 3" chambered slug barrels as they
come from the factory., So I put extra 24" Savage barrel I had
on a Mauser GEHA bolt action. Rifled Savage barrel is modern
steel with .93" muzzle diameter. Original barrel on the GEHA
was only .82" at muzzle. I added an extra rear bolt locking lug
onto the Mauser bolt. Using up stuff to make test gun.

Any modern steel slug barrel, whether on bolt, autoloading,
pump, or break action gun with same muzzle diameter will handle
these RE-17 loads. Max loads were all 115gr of RE-17 in plastic
3" cases, all with seals and cushion wads. Can't get no more under
the seals, cushions and slugs in 3". Which is why I like 3.5"
chambers. With 437 gr Brenekkee and 420 gr in BPI sabot got
over 1900. With 520gr Lyman in shot cup 1850. With 600gr Dixie
got 1800. With 870 gr hard lead got 1600. This is 24" barrel,
so longer barrels will get more. In comparison to IMR4227 loads,
these are about the same speed as using 90gr of 4227. But this
powder is so much easier on cases and guns, with about .004"
less base cup expansion. It works great in 3" and really gets the
speed in 3.5" cases, as in 3.5" cases,as seal/wads about same,
extra length for powder. The 870gr load is max peak pressure of
16,000 psi. Muzzle pressure is about 3500-4000 psi.
I'll have pic of the Mauser in few days.ED

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my 695 Mossberg bolt action.
It is 28ga FH, a 3.25" long brass case. Was a
12ga with light barrel. I also have a heavy 12ga
barrel chambered for 3.5" cases and a .500" barrel
for my 499HE a real long brass case. Also I am
doing my 499HE in a NEF. You can get a NEF with
MMouse 500S&W and run my reamer in and get real
power.The 395,495,595 actions will work also,
as they like the 695 have double bolt lugs
and a loading port that can be lengthened.
And they have a nice style...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/moss28d.jpg

[hubel458]

We get asked about finned slugs for
12ga smooth bores and if they take high
speed. Well they'll do just as good at high
speed as the locked on wad stablized Brenekkee
OK slug I tested in my smoothbore 1887 with long
barrel, in first pic. Second pic is a Corbin
finned slug I will get and test later. Third is
BPI AQ slug I will test, few weeks in the 87.
I'm going to test also in a regular smooth bore
12ga slug barrel of medium muzzle size,
about .92" diameter like the Savage 210 barrel.
One gun I found with decent size diameter are
some of Stevens smoothbores..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/87L.jpg

http://www.corbins.com/images/finslugs.gif

http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/slug_aq.JPG

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the Mauser GEHA shotgun I
setup with an Savage 210 rifled barrel. Used a Savage
plastic stock also. It is setup with the original 3"
chamber. I have many guys who want ideas and slug/load
combination's tested in regular rifled slug barrels, so
this is the one. Most testing will be 3" plastic cases.
Barrel 24" long, .93" regular slug size muzzle diameter.
The GEHA was originally converted from 98 Mausers in
Germany in the 20s, to 12ga by reaming outl the front lug seats
and using the rear safety lug. I added a second rear
bearing lug and it handles 15,000 psi loads ok.
The cases come out with the weight of the bolt.
That will be max pressure used in it, with that slug gun
barrel thickness. Example load is 115gr of RE17 in 3"
plastic case, with 520 gr Lyman cast slug at 1850 plus fps.
This load expands the plastic case base cups about .005",
in comparison, a REM factory Buckhammer and other super
mag turkey and goose loads expands .010".
And we have over 300 fps more velocity.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mauserd.jpg

[hubel458]

Testing some .660" diameter 630 gr hard cast
slugs in the red WIN wadcup in 3.5" plastic
case. Tested in rifled long barrel in 12ga
NEF about 2100 fps. Greg Sappington makes
these. They are hollow point. 3" group at
50yds, peep sight, bad eyes. I also fired
a couple to see if they'd work in my long
brass cased 16GA FH shown in the picture.
They work ok, so Greg has a double duty
slug.They'd work in 16ga plastic also.
The 16ga was held at 1500 as the barrel
isn't heavy, on Stevens/Revelation 16ga. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/gregsl.jpg

[hubel458]

Comparing brass cases.I tell folks who are stepping
up in 12ga power from 3.5 plastic, you can get 3.5" brass cases
from Rocky Mtn Cartridge. Here you can see how heavy
and nice they are compared to regular brass cases.
They also make shorter 3" brass cases also.
They fit the chamber tight and are long enough to
get some serious thumping power.And they have a
super strong, thick , solid head, not a weak balloon head
like regular ones on the left in pic.Ed

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2093.jpg

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/RIPtorn/shogun/100_2090.jpg

[hubel458]

Tested my 499HE in a NEF. Loads I didn't have to
full length resize the case, only top 1/4 of case.
325gr at 2600, 500gr at 2150.
In NEF got both weight bullets 300 fps faster,
still extracted very easy.I got reamer. Just run it
in NEF 500 chamber and you got a blaster. And add
a little weight and thick pad to the gun.I have
a barrel ring to hold forearm along with original
bolt, as I added weight there as well as the butt.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499nef.jpg

[hubel458]

Finally an 870 with longer 1" muzzle barrel. Barrel
is heavier than most all add on pump gun barrels,
and it is 25.5" long, Something that would really get
it on with the slower powder loads we have.
Rifled barrel is solid mount in receiver, scoperail solid mount.

It is the REM 870 Super Slug Gun.
Nice long heavy barrel, and thumbhole stock for
handling recoil better. Plastic case 3" slug loads of ours that
gets 600gr slugs to 1800-1900 fps, work great in this
Like the ones I load and roll crimp in second picture
that are setting behind the little vise, and the one in the
vise ready to be crimped...Ed

http://www.remington.com/images/products/firearms/shotgun/870_super_slug_780.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/drill.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a novel slug idea, hard plastic support ring on
the front, and a locked base ring/seal. Metal never
touches the bores. Work in great rifled and good in
smooth barrels. These are steel, lead/copper would do
great also.Could be made heavier and different points.
Flat point shown would do great damage to game.
On the net- ammunitiontogo.com
This one is about 500 gr.

Second picture is the 499HE to use in redoing the 500S&W,
shown on the also, in single shots, etc,for those wanting
much more power at 40-50% lower pressures.Ed

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalog1/images/Monolit%2032.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/499he.jpg

[hubel458]

Some more testing with RE17 powder. I used it in 2.75",
3", 3.5" 12ga plastic, 3.5 and 3.85" brass. I like it the
best of all, as well as the real slow powders in our
long case with BMG primer.
Following tested in Savage-max pressure 35k psi.
I took couple of our first made 3.85" BMG based
long cases and bushed them back to use shotgun primers
to fire off the RE17. Works great, with 715gr jacketed slug
and 220 gr RE17 getting 2700 . With 420 gr slug in
BPI sabot with 250 gr RE17 getting 3200 plus.
Following tested in NEF-max pressure 25k psi.
Using 3.5" MRC brass, 715gr jkt and 200gr RE17, got 2500.
420 gr in BPI sabot and 220 gr Re17, got 2900 fps.
And we get real good velocities in plastic with half the
basecup expansion of factory mag loads.So that solves
problem-IE, being able to use regular firing mechanisms and
shotgun primers, with large enough powder charges to
get hairy velocities at mag shotgun pressures in plastic
and higher in brass cases with heavy barrels.A good powder
for plastic and brass loads.
I see now that Lightfield Co has the Commander 3.5" Plus
slug loads with 600gr at 1900, probably in a test barrel.
But that is great- nice, as it seems we're being copied!!!ED

[hubel458]

So many guys want 12ga sabot type slugs to reload their own.
Here is an interesting combination slug available in Europe
and they are working to get distributors/stores here.
Any interested stores and shops contact them. We need
many sources of saboted slugs for reloading. The sabot
petals discards completely as slug exits muzzle and locked
on base stays with slug, making it nose heavy so it will give
decent accuracy in smooth bores.Will work in rifled barrels
also. Slug is .629" diameter, comes in 570gr, 700gr, 970gr
weights. They're selling these reloader/other loaders only.
It is called the US-S slug, and their site is
europeancartridgeunlimited.com ..Ed

http://www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com/images/P7190013_s.jpg

[hubel458]

The company kindly gave me few US-S slugs to test at high speeds.
I had helped him test another slug a while back.
He sent me some each of the US-S 570 gr, 700 gr, 970 gr.
I tested the 570 gr so far and in 3.5" plastic case in the 1887
smoothbore 35" barrel and in the NEF rifled 36" barrel at
1900 fps. I got that with 130gr of RE17 with one BPGS
seal under the sabot on the slug. The bottom of the sabot seal
is exactly like a BPGS, so a BPGS added gives double sealing.
Both smooth and rifled gave 3 shot 3" group each at 50 yds with
peep sights and bad eyes. This slug does as good as advertized
in smooth barrels, and smooth accuracy is as good as rifled.
My smooth barrel is tight, measuring 723" at muzzle.
These should be a great deer and hog slug. Folks need to
ask their dealers to work to import these for them
to have what seems a good slug to reload...

On another note we may have found a guy who is gearing up
to make 10 ga rifled barrels. I'll know later this winter
If so I will put one on a bolt action and use the 4.1" long
10GA FH case I made or get some like it from RMC..Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the US-S slugs in a lineup
with other 12ga slugs I'm testing. Lefteris was
kind enough to send me a few of each weight
to test. They are the 3 in second row on the right.
They are 570gr, 700 gr, 970 gr. I tested 570gr in
3.5" plastic so far. At 1900 in the NEF rifled, and
in the 1887 smooth barrel, got 3" group on both.
With peep sights an bad eyes.So the US-S slug
is great in smoothbores, as good as rifled. My
smoothbore on the 1887 is .723" bore at muzzle,
a nice tight fit for smooth slugs. The smooth
bores Lefteris tested them with are .722" muzzle,
and they've already killed 5 wild boars, one shot
kills with the 570gr slug. Also if anyone wants a
heavy smoothbore new 12ga barrel, .722" muzzle,
1.375" outside diameter to make a great slug
gun with slugs like these, and others like the
Brenekkes, I have spare one. The US-S slugs
are smoothbore accurate in my 87 like the
Brenekke KOs.In the picture the left two cases
are 3.5" Fiocchi with the Fiocchi magnum primers.
I compared that primer to the REM 209 primer and
it has about the same strength.Next two are FED 3.5".
then 2 12GA FH 3.85" cases, then 3.5" RMC brass, then
3" RMC brass, the 2 WIN 3.5", then 2 REM 3.5".ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usslug.jpg

[hubel458]

I got the 700H 3.25 case feeding from the magazine I set
up on the Montana Rifle Co PH action. It is singlestack with
feed lips similiar to 12ga shotgun clip style magazines I
had here. Works great, shown in first picture. Now it is longer
than regular 12ga mags, but same setup would do for feeding
long brass 12GA FH and long MRC 12ga cases. The
700H 3.25 is 3.9 inches overall loaded length. In picture
case is ready to clear the mag lips, then rim pops up under
extracter as bolt is moving forward. Second picture is
the box used that I made out of two PH boxes. That allowed
for extra height and fit for singlestack and riveted together.
Used a Savage 210 12ga follower and spring. ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700phfeed.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/700box.jpg

[hubel458]

The 700gr US-S slug in smoothbore, at 2000
in a 3.5" brass case, got a 2.5" 3 shot group
at 50 yds. Great slugs they have come up with
for smoothbores.
Some of us talking about getting 10 ga rifled
barrels made, here is a picture of my 4.1" long
brass 10ga I made from 50cal Russian by putting
on a rim like the 12GA FH is built.Just a prototype,
third in picture. Later I'll get RMC to make some,
as it is much easier way. First in picture is
16GA FH 3.5" long, 2nd 12GA FH 3.85" long,
3rd 10GA FH 3.1" long, 4th 8GA FH 4.3" long.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafh.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the 12ga belted cases I made to
test a few loads in. I made it from 55cal belted
Boys case. I reduced belt diameter a little and left
the base the same, which is 12ga size.In picture
first is 55cal, second expanded to .620", third
expanded to .660"(16ga), then two 12 ga ones.
Next is our 12GA FH, and then a 12ga 3.5"
plastic case.A little work in long 12ga FH chamber
with a tool for belt step and it chambers. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12gabelt.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of US-S brass slug after going through
3 foot of wood slabs in a bundle. It has shed its plastic
base and it went through straight without tumbling.
This one is 570 gr fired at 2200 in RMC case, from NEF.
Also in picture is one with white sabot petals off, as it
would be in flight, before hitting target.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/usapart.jpg

[hubel458]

4bore work. Working on design of firing pin,
and waiting for parts now. Problem is getting
real small parts without CNC for bushed
firing pin with rebound spring. But it takes
time.

We will have swaged lead slugs
in a little while as my barrel is smooth. They
will be 1600gr hollowbase, when done,
a hundred of them at least.
Got wads and cards, shown in the picture with 4bore
cases and slugs. And my 2bore case for comparison
Also 12ga wads for comparison..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/4to2.jpg

[hubel458]

Our cartridge work and experimenting got a nice
write up in # 470 Nov/Dec International Ammunition
Journal. Page 10-11 by Zach Weighman, a
cartridge collector and gun nut friend.

Got a guy just figured out BMG case rim, and for a rim
puts on 12ga high base cup from a plastic case. He turns
base/rim of bmg case about .008" and use JB Kwik to hold
it on. Pushes it on with press. He removes base cup with
heat gun from plastic cases,

He is using RE17, so shotgun primers will work, and he
puts bushing in case for primer. Has bushing reamed so
the primer pocket protrusion on the base cup goes up inside
tight, as he pushes on the base cup. It'll fire ok and to size it
do like I do, I push case into open top die, and push it
back out from the top with a rod and hammer. That
way the rim don't get bent up. He says it saves a lot of
time not having to make rim pieces.

We will have more info and pictures next few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is a picture of a BPI sabot with a BPI Flexseal I
use on to it in place of the original cushion seal.
I also cut shallow slots in the outside at the bottom
of the petals. Sabot opens much quicker and seems
along with BPGS seals under it to work ok without
damage, giving high velocities. In pic on left is regular
BPI sabot, behind is one I put a cushion on from a
Brenekke KO slug, and in front the one with Flexseal on.
The slug in it is one a guy casts at 440 gr and .504"
diameter, and works ok.

New info on my 499HE, from now on we will make cases
out of 450 #2 brass, as Jamisons has 3-4000 cases,
and it seems no one has the 475 #2 we used first.
Only slight case dimension change is the base .012"
smaller, all else is the same. I'm getting reamers redone
and will be able to use in couple weeks. Case will still have
plenty of taper to extract easy in singles, doubles,
falling blocks.etc.

And speaking of falling blocks I found one, and put my 585HE
in it, and it is big enough and has enough clearance to be used
for a 577NE, 600NE, long 20ga, my long 16ga FH,
the 700H, the 700HE. Cost no more than Ruger, with barrel
figured in. Will have pics
and info soon. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpifl.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture, Falling Block I found that I put
my 585HE in. It didn't need any work on the
feed trough to feed. 585 case shown in it.
In fact the trough is big enough
and the action big enough for 600NE, 3.5" 20ga
brass, 3.5" 16ga FH brass, my 700 HE long case.
I reworked a NEF stock to it, as I'm not
a stockmaker.Nice action.2nd picture is
of the 16GA FH in the feed trough.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb585.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb16.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the FBW falling block with my
700HE long case in it.This falling block is 1.5"
wide, with a 1.125" wide breach block.
The sides are .187" thick next to breach block.
This compares to about .165" say for a Browning
B-87, Win copy. The feed trough would work with
12ga size rim if some work was done on the top
of the hammer. This has a barrel thread length of
1.005", thread diameter of 1.125" for good
strength. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb700.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the falling block with a
600NE in the feed trough. Work great
chambered as a 3.5" 20 gauge, for
20 gauge 3.5" brass and plastic cases also.

Second picture is a 12GA FH case we made by
epoxying on a 12 ga base cup onto a bmg brass
case. Turned brass down .010" and pressed on base
with epoxy in it and when set base is on good.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/nfb600.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/12bases.jpg

[hubel458]

Another way that I put a 12ga rim on
bmg case is to use the new Magtech brass
12ga cases made by CBC in Brazil.
BPI and others sell them for less than
a buck each. Being so short they aren't
in the 12ga FH category of generating power.
But you cut them off a quarter inch long, and
turn a BMG rim down to .715 diameter, push on the
Magtech base, with JB weld in the Magteck
base, and set up a squeeze collet to
crimp the Magtech base sides into the BMG
extractor groove. Crimp it in hard and tight.
And it uses large rifle primers.Fed Mag 215 best.
Other bmg case work needed is to put a chamfer
on the bmg primer pocket and drill out the
bmg primer pocket straight so that there is no
block to the primer gases coming out through the
Magtech flash hole. Chamfer back of rim a little.
These will handle
20,000 psi loads.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is picture of Brett Ittel's Savage 210 he has setup.
It has a 3.5" 12ga chamber in a heavy 27" Pacnor barrel,
that he put in place of original. He also put in a Knoxx
spring/cam recoil absorbing butt plate in the hollow
Savage plastic stock. He replace the plastic parts of the
absorber with aluminum parts. It is shown without the boot
so you can see how it is in the butt.He also has an oversize
pad on it. He hasn't weighted the gun with anything else and
it shoots comfortable, even off the bench with loads that get
a 500gr slug in a BPI sabot over 3000 fps. He gets this speed
with BPI and 500 gr in 3.5" plastic cases. He also can use
3.5" RMC cases and our BMG based case, cut to 3.5"...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bret.jpg

[hubel458]

Some 8ga work.I found a way and made a die that
swages the 8ga kiln cases down to regular 8ga size.
It swages the belt down and a turning tool I made
removes the sharp edge on the belt after swaging,
to make a smooth transition to the right size.
It does it 4 times faster than previous process.
My chamber on the NEF is set up so regular sizes fit
and loaded kiln cases with the belt step won't go in.
It works with both the REM 8ga cases from BPI and the
WIN 8ga cases from Precision Reloading, and the
WIN cases are only 44 bucks a hundred, primed.
The WIN cases have the same extra powerful primer
just like the REM cases. The REM cases are black
and the WIN cases a see through plastic. Both same
thick sides.Anyone needing cases worked over
contact me... Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8inef.jpg

[hubel458]

A switch barrel auto we are tested 3.5" 12ga
smoothbore USS-S slugs, with hopped up loads.
About as accurate as the other guns here. Also
I'm getting the auto set up in my 585 HE long
case.585 HE long case shown in the port.
Switching barrels only takes minutes. This 12ga
barrel about as heavy as the 210 Savage barrel.
It is originally a 3.5" 12ga autoloader I've reworked
the stroke and have a barrel extension coming to add
585 28" barrel. Gun is weighted, thick double pad.
We are going to see how mild 585 HE loads of
9,000 ft lbs work in autoloader.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585khan.jpg

[hubel458]

Guys have asked about a 10ga FH, and it is just
getting stuff to do cases with reasonable time and cost.
So a breakthrough with a 10ga FH, is putting 10 gauge
basecups from plastic cases onto 50cal Russian brass to
make a 4.05" long 10ga. I expand case using my shellholder
on original rim, put in bushing for shotgun primer, which
fires off RE17, the turn case and rim a little, and slip
on basecup with epoxy inside. Then take a 200 dollar heavy
barrel NEF 10ga, and deepen chamber like mine is.
Here is picture with one beside a 12ga FH. The 12ga FH holds
max load of about 330 gr ball powder below a slug,
and the 10ga FH holds 420gr. I'm getting things set
to get a bunch of cases to do this. Progress.
Now anyone wanting any of my cases for their collection
I have a package of them all. Contact me.. ...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhb.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is a neat idea for a 5 shot 12ga,
a 12ga revolver. Nice looking gun.
Also I found a company that would rebore 10ga
NEF heavy barreled guns to 8ga, if they can
get 5-6 guys lined up to do it, so that they can
make tooling and charge less than
300 bucks to do it. Delta Reboring.
Let me know and we'll get arrangements made
if enough are interested.I have two now.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/zrevolver.bmp

[hubel458]

The long brass 10GA FH case shown above has a Lyman
slug in a thickwall 10ga steel shotcup that BPI sells.
That's a 12ga 525gr Lyman.Makes nice lighter slug for 10ga.
The slug has bottom chamfered to set in cup tight
and a little epoxy makes it one piece that makes it a discarding
sabot style like a SPW. That makes it front heavy so that it
is as accurate as Brenekke KOs in smoothbore. I'm
also working with a guys to cast long hollowbase 10ga slugs
like the ones Federal loads. We are figuring out molds now,
will probably make slugs about 850gr. Here is picture of
my 10GA FH NEF with long brass case started in the chamber.
Chamber is set for that 4.050" brass case and will shoot 3.5"
plastic cases also. I am going to put on a thumbhole Survivor
stock like I have on NEF 8ga we did.Ed



http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbg.jpg

[hubel458]

We talk about liking the use of heavier slug barrels
in using our slow powder giving 1/3 faster loads
in plastic cases, and handling recoil better. It is
stiffer being heavy for an aid to accuracy.
Guy out west has this heavy muzzled, Hastings, rifled
barrel, for his REM 870. In first pic is a comparison to the
original 870 barrel. It shows a muzzle as heavy as on
a NEF Ultra Slug GUN. 2nd picture is the gun itself.
That makes a neat slug gun..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw1.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/maw2.jpg

[hubel458]

The heavy rifled barrel in previous post was made by
Hastings for the Remington 870. It is 26" long and a
muzzle diameter of over an inch. Hastings is gone now,
but we'd like to find some of these barrels. The Hastings
number of the barrel is 560H90.

In the meantime Remington has come out with their
SPS Super Magnum Slug Gun with 25.5" rifled barrel and
a 1" diameter muzzle, with more solid barrel, and extra
pins in mounting barrel, so a scope can be put on action. Ed

http://www.hyattgunstore.com/images/P/main-1933.jpg

[hubel458]

I get asked about presses used for big cases.
Here is a picture of my 2 big presses on
the heavy bench, with the case spinner/lathe
on the back of the bench. Blue one is a Walnut
Hill and the green is beefed up Ammomaster.
Both are braced so I can lean on them.Bench is
braced to wall supports and benches behind.

You can see the expanders laid out on the press
brace arms, and a whole bunch of shorty dies laid
out, that fit everything from 10ga down to
my 700HE. And variety of large cases and real large
4ga-8ga dies, parts I work with. On the right is a
stack of my 585HE dies in the die boxes.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/ben1.jpg

[hubel458]

Now might get real exciting load developement wise,
If we could make brass cases as long as the paper
one on the right. In picture is 3.5" 10ga plastic
case, our 10GA FH brass 4.05" case I made by putting
a 10ga basecup on 50cal Russian brass, and third
a 6" long 10ga bomb disposal case used to shoot
liquid/gel in to bomb packages, I think.
Anyone knows for sure let me know.ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10ga6.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture showing surplus 50 Russian case before
and the 10ga brass case we make using it with
10ga bases pressed and epoxied on and expanding
case out straight, making the 4.050" long
10ga case.Makes a great 10ga FH.
And the case isn't weakened any, by the
process of putting on the rim.It will
stand any pressures any gun could...ED

http://www.gunownerstv.com/10gafhbef.jpg

[Larryjk]

Hubel458, I have a 12 gauge paper case in my collection that is about 6" long. I was told they were used for turning over the radial aircraft engines to help start them in WWII. Apparently the engines had a receptacle where the shell was inserted and could be fired by the pilot to help turn the engine over when he hit the starter button. I knew it had to be some kind of industrial use.

[hubel458]

Thanks for the info. This 10ga one is probably same use.
It is an old paper case. Guy said something about bombs,
so maybe it was used to start the huge radial engines
on WW2 bombers.Ed

[hubel458]

We have put 4 different cartridges in the Savage 210
bolt gun. We added various 12ga and .700"
heavy thick barrels.
The first was our 12ga FH long case.
The second was my 700H 3.25" belted case.
Third was the 3.5" 12ga that Bret did, and
fourth is the 700NE that we wanted to see
how it works. It shoots fine, has weighted stock,
and a 27 inch barrel.Has a double thick pad.
I even have cast slugs for 700.
Cases are expensive, ones in picture are
20 bucks each...Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/matt700.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of my Mossy 695 that has heavy barrel for
the our long 12ga cases, in fact it chambers the 12ga
belted shown in picture ok that I use for testing.
I set chamber to do belted as well as rimmed.

Second picture is some of my 585 Short HE cases, that work
great in regular length actions.We have these in Ruger,
Enfields, Mausers already. I have available supply of
brass for these of about 8-9000. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/mobelt.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/585shbr.jpg

[hubel458]

Getting to some more 4ga/bore work.With barrel and
falling block action locked down fired off some blank
type loads to test the breach and firing pin I set up.
I fired it by hitting the back of firing pin with a rod,
as I now have get hammer and trigger setup. Firing pin
dents primers ok, breach works and headspace is ok.

For loads I have wads to take up space above powder.
Others with same 4ga case in doubles fill case about
1/6 full of Blue Dot (110gr), with 2000gr slug.

I'll use 1600 gr hollowbase slugs, with about 1/3 of a case
of IMR 4759 or 1/2 to 5/8 case of RE17, rest filled
with fiber wads.These are shotgun primer loads and I will be
using THE STRONGER PRIMERS OF KILN CASES at about same
price as BMG primers. And I have BMG primer cases also
that I will test also, once gun is finished in a few weeks.Ed

[hubel458]

Fired 4bore with 760 gr light round ball with
fiber wads under it, using 150gr Blue Dot
and shotgun primer case. Just starting loads
for testing operation. Hardly no recoil,
like a heavy, beefed up blank load,
could go much higher with that light
of round ball. Will have pics of the muzzle
blast and the gun shooting from the side,
using heavier slugs in a week or so.
In Owen's 4bore double,that uses same case
size they use max of 110gr of Blue Dot
with 2000 gr slug. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/phbbl.jpg

[hubel458]

Fired the 4bore with the 760 gr round ball,
which is a hard rubber coated steel ball,
thus the light weight compared to lead,
using 100gr of Blue Dot under 300gr RE17,
total 400gr. Hairy load, with 3500 fps, and
20,000 ft lbs. Used the turned 4bore cases,
with shotgun primers, and with that light
projectile case doesn't need sizing. This is
good beginning bullet weight for early testing.
I am gonna do 1200gr and 1600gr holding the
speeds to give about same energy.
I won't load heavier until I get another
stock like one I have that is full width.
Also those who want 3.5" 20ga brass cases,
Rocky Mtn Cartridge is making them now.ED

[hubel458]

Tested 4bore with a double ball load of 1250 grains weight,
Used 100gr Blue Dot under 250gr of RE17, with card and
one fiber wad. 2600 fps. Recoil not bad, just brisk.
Used turned brass cases with shotgun primer, and cases
still didn't expand base. just size top..
Running about 23-25,000 psi.
The light ball load in above post
about 16,000 psi.. Ed

[hubel458]

Some interesting shooting with 4bore.

Double 760gr ball load of 1520 gr total, at 2300 fps.

A buck and ball load, 6 45cal lead balls, 133gr each,
and a 760 gr ball on top, 1560 gr total, at 2300 fps.

Both loads 100gr BlueDot under 225gr Re17, In the
turned brass cases, with shotgun primer.Recoil
manageable, and like a big push. The sound isn't
a boom like regular shotguns, but cracks loud
like big bore rifles,at least twice as as loud.Ed

[hubel458]

I got my 20ga FH 3.5" brass cases from RMC.
The case capacity in water is 234 gr.
It holds 215 gr of dense ball powder to the
base of 490gr 20ga hard lead slugs I have.
These cases use a 209Mag shotgun primer, and
I have mouth ID set up for .620 slugs as the slugs
and sabots I have are that size. These cases will
work good out to 35,000 psi, without extreme
expansion or resizing problems. Load of slow powder
will get 490 gr to 2500 plus at 25-27,000 psi,
6800 ft lbs, using the 30" barrel I'm getting to
put on the FBW Model L falling block.
! also have a case of the 3.5" factory Hastings
SPW, locked on sabot, loaded rounds to use.Ed

[hubel458]

Here is pic of the RMC brass 20ga 3.5" with
Hastings 3.5" factory plastic case loads,
and 20ga Hollywood dies. Also slugs, Dixie 490 gr,
Hastings SPW and 900gr jacketed in the one case.

Second pic is the FBW Model L setup that will have
20ga 3.5" chambered barrel in a second one. This 1st
one is in my 585HE.It is falling block in one piece
thumbhole stock, an idea I come up with on my
4bore falling block. Second Model L will be built same
in 3.5" 20ga. EDd

http://www.gunownerstv.com/20dies.jpg

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw1pc.jpg

[hubel458]

Transition, biggest to a smaller, in
putting falling block actions in one piece stocks.
First one was the 4bore, the big one in
picture and after it was done I got a FBW falling block
and soon figured out I could do the same with it.
It is chambered in my 585HE cartridge.
And it is pictured above with the cases.
I built the 4bore, from blocks of steel.
The FBW is the Model L, and I'm doing second one
in 3.5" 20ga, to use brass and plastic cases.
And maybe later on when I find extra 700 barrel
we'll do my long 700HE in FBW....Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bigsm.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of FBW Model L in one piece stock,
compared to a FBW Model S in 2 piece stock.
Both are chambered in my 585HE.
These two plus the Wickcliff 76 and Ruger #1
will easily handle my 585HE with proper
weight and thick pads. These guns have
rimless extractors and my 585HE goes in and
out with least amount of metal removal from
the feed trough, with much more power.
The Model L will have a 3.5" chambered 20ga
barrel to use 3.5" MRC brass cases and
Hastings factory or reloaded plastic cases.Also
I'm working to put a Wickcliff in 1 piece stock.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/fbw2pc.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of a bolt action a fella on Practical
Machinist built for an 8ga. 4 rear bolt lugs.Singleshot.
He used section of 20mm barrel for barrel.. Real nice.
Idea would do for 10 and 12ga also I think.
Has an aimpoint sight. Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt1.jpg

[hubel458]

Here is picture of the fella firing his bolt
action 8ga that he made. He uses the
super strong, heavy duty, plastic cases
like we are using in the ones we made by
boring out NEFs to 8ga.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/8bolt2.jpg

[hubel458]

Some have asked if the guy who made above
bolt action 8ga does them for others, no he only
did one for himself, and isn't a manufacturer.

Here is picture of a cast .504" slug BPI 12ga sabot
a guy made a few for me and it has good accuracy with
our slower powder loads, with the sabot working ok.
Slug is 440 gr and hard alloy cast with decent
meplat for good penetration.But it isn't too blunt
so it has good longer range capabilities when you
get the speed behind it. Soon be the deer season and
guys are still hunting for their ideal 12ga sabot/slug
setup for loading their own.BPI is supposed to have
a new sabot this year..Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/bpi504.jpg

[hubel458]

The .504" lead slug I show for using in 12ga sabots is
one cast for using in .500" cases like my 499HE, by
sizing it after casting. Tried it at the .504" diameter and
it works in the sabot also. So it does double duty,
unsized 12ga sabot, sized and lubed in .500" use.

Some like short cases in big calibers, and have put up
various ideas. First picture is 12ga brass cases, two
2" long and other 2.25". Cases made by shortening
our cases we made by putting rims on bmg brass.
These can be used in Savage 210 and feed from mag
box. Can use 2.5" Magtech brass shortened so case
and protruding slug will be 2.7" overall and feed from
magazines of Savage & Mossy bolt guns. With 2.25" case
you can get 600gr to 1800 at least.Ed

http://www.gunownerstv.com/2inch12.jpg