The "Ready Gun" Position.

[Adam Helmer]

I have noticed on TV news programs and cop shows that cops and military personnel with a gun in hand, both pistols, M16s and shotguns, etc., have their trigger fingers along the frame ABOVE the trigger guard and trigger. I assume some person deemed that is another safety when a gun is about to be used if needed in gravest extreme, but I think it is not as good having the trigger finger inside the trigger guard. Curling the trigger finger in case of instant need will not fire the gun. One must consciously seek and find the trigger before the gun will go bang. It may be just a second too late.

There is a trial going on in the next county where two Sheriff's deputies were killed by a bad guy they had arrested in the past and they were about to serve some papers on the BG at his residence. BG was in the backyard when the two deputies approached him. We only have the BG's testimony since he whacked both cops. I wonder if they had their trigger fingers along the frame of their handguns as they were trained.

At my agency, per SOP, we always had our guns in our hands when we did an entry for a drug search. We had our guns down along the seam of our pants, in hand. That began because in the past an agent needed his gun and did, in fact draw it, but he had his suit coat wrapped around the grip AND blocking the trigger, because he forgot to sweep back the edge of his jacket to effect a draw. Duh.

When you need a gun, you need to be able to put it into use right away. Effecting the perfect draw starts with the gun in hand. Getting off the shot starts with your finger inside the trigger guard.

Adam

[Nulle]

Our Duty and SRT training is centered around the finger along the gun at ALL times until time to drop the hammer when it goes direct to the trigger and fire.

[gregarat]

What about point shooting?

I use my middle finger to squeeze the trigger, and point with index along the frame above the trigger guard.

[Esox357]

Due to parasympathetic reflexes that can activate your trigger finger there is a good reason why most departments do not train or want your finger on the trigger until the time to fire. I did hear at one time that officers that drew their guns were taught to take up the slack of the trigger when drawing down on a BG. I don't think this is still in use but I could be wrong. Esox357.

[Adam Helmer]

Esox357,

You may have a point since far too many leos are not really familiar with their firearms. In gravest extreme, the adrenelin rush in two cases I know of caused two LEOs to pull frantically on the front of their triggerguards and did not get off a shot when a shot was needed very badly. Up to that time they both had their trigger fingers dutifully extended above the trigger along the frame. Both of these people only shot their guns twice a year at qualification.

When you are watching events unfold, seeking cover and deciding to shoot, trying to ACQUIRE the trigger of your gun may be just one second too many to survive. If the trigger is sought in haste, it could cause an accidential discharge. If anyone prefers the "extended above the trigger" mode in Condition 1, so be it. I do not see that mode of carry as being safer than the finger in the trigger guard, especially for people who are familiar with their firearms. I will continue to keep light contact between my trigger finger and trigger.

Adam

[HuntinDoc]

Practice till it is automatic. Sights on target--Finger on trigger. Sights off target--finger off trigger. I don't care whether it is on the frame or on front of trigger guard. For me, on the frame feels too unnatural. I guess I practiced the other way for too long. I know Massad Ayoob teaches to place finger on frame. I do the same with the safety. Sights up-safety off, sights down-safety on. Now there is nothing concious about it.

It happens the same as hitting the brake on the car when needed. I don't think "I need to stop, let off the gas, now push on the break." I simply think "STOP" and it happens. I think "shoot" and it happens.

I did have some friends whom I used to shoot with that used to work to try to get each other to accidentally fire (in a safe way) while on target. Let me explain-- We used to practice drills with a loaded gun. Gun up--safety off, sights on target, finger on tigger; gun down--safety off, finger off trigger. With a safe target back stop we would try to startle the shooter when he had is gun up, on target. To try to make him shoot. Never really worked because I guess we were expecting it. We told ourselves we were steady as a rock though. The best startle practice though was another shooter with a magnum shooting next to you. If you didn't accidentally fire when a .44mag went off next to you, You may do ok.

[Adam Helmer]

HuntinDoc,

You make very good points. When I began my LEO career in 1970, there was never any mention of having the finger off the trigger whenever the handgun was out of the holster. We did drill the "ready gun" position of having the gun out in front and pointed down 45 degrees so our vision was not obscured by the gun and our trigger fingers were always inside the trigger guard. I just wondered when the "finger off the trigger" scenario began and why.

Most of my fellow agents had experience with the M1 Garand and M14 and the trigger finger inside the trigger guard was mandatory to release the safety in gravest extreme. It naturally carried over to revolvers and the Glocks and we never had an accidental discharge. Up until I retired in 1996, our Federal agency never had an instruction for "finger along the frame above the trigger" when our guns were drawn.

I would like to know the reason for the finger out of the trigger guard scenario. I wonder if it was from the same source at higher headquarters who sent us a "Bulletin" for us to "Keep the safety catch engaged on our M10 Smiths until it was time to fire." Apparently the author of the "Bulletin" was not familiar with the DA revolver. I think it is better to be ready to fire and watch the muzzle in gravest exteme.

Adam

[HuntinDoc]

My understanding is that the finger on the frame is a measure to prevent accidental discharges should you be startled. Normal reflex is to grip and that means all the fingers.

Too many accidental discharges -something needed to be done. The only real solution is training. Making the gun DAO is no substitute. Keep that finger off the trigger (out of the trigger guard) until sights are on the target.

I have seen even LEOs accidentally discharge their sidearm during reloads, reholstering, clearing jams, etc. Simply because they had their finger on the trigger when trying to do something else.

I don't know how many of you saw the video about the DEA agent that shot himself with his Glock .40 in a classroom during a talk with some school children. Classic "I've been around guns so much nothing could happen to me." So he shoots himself because he thought he was too well trained to pay attention to the first rule of gun safety. (Treat every gun as if it is loaded) It needs to be not only habit but instinct.

[Adam Helmer]

HuntinDoc,

If you are startled, you may NEED to fire RIGHT THEN! As I said, for those not familiar with their guns and high stress situations, then by all means they should put their fingers on the frame.

My question is the source of that scenario? Who dreamed it up that fingers along the frame is safer? If LEOs fire their guns clearing jams, reholstering and such like, then keep them on the range until they are familiar with their guns. Remember, most LEOs never shot a gun until they were recruited. Their learning curve is verticle and then they do not have the "groove" when it comes time to do the shot.

That DEA agent forgot to WATCH THE MUZZLE and then worry about the trigger finger. What was his experience despite his opening remark, "I am the most professional person here qualified to handle a gun?" Well, the DEA should fire him and get someone familiar with firearms.

If anyone knows the source of the "finger on the frame" scenario, please let me know who thought it up. Was TV and the movies the source or just a follow-on to some department SOP? I see several TV-inspired acts at the local gun club. Recently I saw a new member fire a shot from his single action Ruger .44 Magnum and then blow down the muzzle of the still-loaded gun! Another newbie loaded his DA revolver and then SNAPPED the loaded cylinder back into the frame with a flick of his wrist just like Kojak does, how jaunty?

Adam

[8X56MS]

One aspect of all this that keeps getting left out, is the different needs of a Citizen as opposed to those of a LEO. As a Citizen, when presented with dire straits, my finger will be in the trigger guard, and a micro second from capping someone. Unlike a cop, I do not find myself going into harms way because I HAVE to. If I am there, its because it was thrust upon me.

[Esox357]

The DEA agent was attempting to show the class how to apparently field strip the firearm, in this case a glock 40. Why the hell would you show a bunch of fourth graders how to clean a glock is beyond me but that was allegedly the excuse.
To disassemble the glock you need to pull the trigger to "take it down". Well he dropped the mag and intentionally pulled the trigger, shooting himself. He was a douche bag if you aske me!
The video that stands out the most to me about this is a female deputy sheriff in Las Vegas holding a male at gunpoint while another officer is cuffing the suspect. The gun was a Beretta not sure the caliber but she ended up shooting the ground right in front of the suspects head and barely missed both him and the officer cuffing the suspect. She then attempted to grab her microphone on her radio, it is unsure if she did have a negligent discharge on her own or if she was actually trying to key the "mic" on her radio that caused the discharge in her other hand, ie parasympathetic reflex? Esox357.

[Riposte1]

There are various names for this but some authorities call it "involuntary convulsive reflex" - some claim that the finger pulls a pressure of about 50 lbs when this happens - I have no reason to doubt it.

The operative term here is that it is *involuntary*. You have no control over it when it happens. It usually happens only during highly tense, possibly life threatening, situations and is not normally replicated on the range or even in force on force training.

I know of several incidents where people - one LEO, one innocent subject and one handcuffed subject - were killed or permanently injured when using Double Action pistols due to the failure to obey the safety rules.

In each case, I understand, the courts found negligence on the part of the person with the gun.

As posted above, the finger goes to the trigger when the decision has been made to fire *and* the sights come on to the target (if it is a human or animal threat it has feet...that’s part of the target, don’t get too precise!).

Be careful out there,
Riposte

[Adam Helmer]

Riposte1,

In your last paragraph you state, "the finger goes to the trigger when the decision has been made to fire." Well, Yes and No; IT DEPENDS! For 10 years I was the Firearms Coordinator (Instructor) for 100 federal agents in all 6 New England states and we qualifed twice a year. Two of the newbies "PULLED" on their trigger guards when they should have shot a mope that needed shooting very badly. The newbies could not watch the mope and find their triggers at the same time! They were not experienced shooters and the "finger out of the trigger guard" was not in our Firearms Handbook; they apparently got it off the TV because I never taught that nonsense. Their fingers NEVER found the trigger when they should have! How many lesser experienced homewoners will also be lesser served with a "finger out of the trigger guard "Safety" approach?" Watching the muzzle is a far better training scenario.

Most of our agents never handled a gun before they were recruited and their learning curve was vertical. A few agents were veterans and a fewer number were grouse, deer and chuck hunters. I always got a few hunters and long-time shooters on my squad for a heavy case.

Far too many folks have not "grooved" firing any gun in gravest extreme. As for you example of LEOs shooting cuffed prisoners or bystanders with a DA revolver, I would say the LEO did not "Watch the Muzzle!"

I have been with my team in hot corners and we did not EVER "involuntarily" shoot our firearms. Any "compulsive reflex" will be overriden by long hours of training. What was the experience of those you mentioned in your "authorities'"study?

Experience and long hours of training "groove" the needed firearms response. I have had many agents screw up on the firing line because they only took their guns out of their filing cabinets twice a year for qualifications, many homeowners shoot their handguns even less. Watch the muzzle and put your trigger finger where it is best for you.

Adam

[Riposte1]

Adam;

Perhaps I wasn't too clear but the *and* was meant to imply that both conditions must be met before moving the finger toward the trigger.

While I am personally not to big on covering subjects with my muzzle unless I have already made the desicion to shoot, a bunch of LEOs seem to do this regularly as a deterrent (since I don't like it I will leave it to the advocates to explain their rationale).

One of situations I described was big city SWAT officer who shot the lead man in the door - the gun was a S&W 4043 DAO. He tripped on the threshold of the door and experienced that reflex.

To this day, no one knows if his finger was on the trigger or beside it, but we advocate placing on the frame, not the guard so that it cannot inadvertently slide into the trigger well and touch the trigger.

Last Spring my life was spared when a soldier in training lost his footing and fell while doing a move and shoot exercise. When he fell, he twisted and I looked right down the muzzle. A quick thinking assistant instructor pushed the muzzle away but he said before he could reach the man he could see the soldier's finger tip flex on the receiver of the M4 (since he had been shooting on the move the safety was off but he remebered to get his finger to the frame when he was not actually on target).

Our CSM was missed by mere inches and got a hole through his vehicle door when a soldier not trained in Rule three was moving near him in Afghanistan.

That said, I can sympathise with the folks who cannot find the trigger (I had a soldier press the trigger instead of the magazine release when told to unload so I guess the reverse could be true). But, in all honesty, I dont feel the answer is to ignore "Rule 3". SWAT cops kill more SWAT cops than any other group :-(

The circumstances I mentioned are just ones I have run across where we know that the muzzle was pointed in the wrong direction. Our states largest PD had 15 reported negligent discharges the first year after adopting Glocks, no telling how many went unreported as disiplanary action of some sort is required.

Good topic, thank you for the discussion.

Riposte

[Adam Helmer]

Riposte1,

Thanks for the reply and the excellent discussion. You apparently have "been there and done that" and I respect your input. I will never have the last (or best) word on this matter.

I will leave this subject by saying that I truly believe "one does under stress what one does in practice." We had far too many agents who never practiced and they did not do well in gravest extreme. Nuff said. I retired to a great pension and now shoot targets in the backyard.

Be well.

Adam

[Riposte1]

Adam;

Neither will I have the last word. There is always something new to learn. I dont think we are that far apart in this discussion.

I will simply say I agree completely with your thought that one performs under stress exactly as you practice. Or as Barret Tillman wrote: "You do not rise to the occasion but default to your higest level of training."

One of the slides in my inbrief says "You will do what you practice; If you practice nothing then you will do nothing,... but get shot."

Very best regards.
Riposte

[Adam Helmer]

Riposte1,

Ok, I know I said, I said it all, but here is one humurous note I think you will appreciate since you are obviously a LEO with a lot of smarts and are a Firearms Instructor to boot.

One nice Friday September day about 1994, I was on the range with about 15 disinterested agents who enjoyed an "easy" day and an early get home sort of scenario. I was trying to instruct the nuances of "Combat Loading" of our issue 12 gauge Remington 870s. Get the picture: We put the shells in our "weak side" pockets and load the tube while watching the bad guys. So far, so good, right?

Well, with 15 "Pilgrims" on the line with shotguns we had two jams from the get go and my two line coaches responded to the "Problems." First agent tried to load a BIC lighter into the tube and another old timer put a half-roll of Tums into his 870 tube! So much for combat loading the shotgun when miscellaneous "stuff" is in the same pocket as the shells!

Like I said, I carefully selected the agents I wanted on certain cases. Be well

Adam

[Riposte1]

Adam;

:-), Yep, that sounds pretty familiar.

One of my students became a member of the Cadre for one of our state's largest departments and invited me up to their new indoor range a short time after it was put into operation.

Everything was so pristine that when I walked into the shooting bay I was immediately attracted to a group of smudges on the concrete ceiling. My guide saw me notice and said "Riot gun class two weeks ago."

We moved inside to the classroom and I saw a bullet hole, about 9mm or .38, in the wall even with the table tops. He saw me notice this and said "Glock Armorer's class, last week."

No wonder firearms instructors pull out their hair :-)

Thanks for sharing!
Riposte

[Andy L]

This is good stuff. You guys keep talking. :cool:

[Andy L]

Adam, just a quick word about training. I dont do as much as I should. I have a range I can shoot rifles out to 90 yards in my back yard. I will go out with my carry gun, currently Taurus PT 145, and shoot. I always practice shooting from different ranges, but always at reasonable "inside" ranges, different angles, gun in hand, gun in holster, ect... Not necessarily quick draw stuff, but get the gun up smoothly, safety off and fire an accurate shot, sometimes while moving too.

No one else in our company practices at all. I have never had to fire my weapon and havent drawn on a person but a handful of times. I do take it out and carry it down to my side when searching a house alot of times. But I would like to think that just what you said will cover me. Should I ever get surprised and have to use it, the practice I have put in will take over when my mind is too busy puckering my buttthole and do whats necessary to save my bacon.

I hope anyway.

[Adam Helmer]

Andy L,

Keep practicing. Remember what Bill Jordan said, "To be fast is fine, but accuracy is final." Not many of our agents ever practiced even though we had an indoor range and plenty of ammo on hand.

On searches, I usually had my handgun in my strong hand pointed down and slightly away from my body. The appearance of that gun-in-hand had a salutory effect on some alleged violators. Also, if they set a pit bull on you, it is good to have gun in hand when the pucker factor revves up!

Adam

[Riposte1]

An interesting, but academic, follow up. Last night I took part in a traveling training program our state is putting on. They have been in our county now for a couple of weeks and I guess I was the last of about 50 L.E.O.s in our little region (not all from the same agency).

It was a good 15 minutes of simple marksmanship training on a simulator similar to a FATS system followed by 45 minutes of decision making scenarios. I was keenly interested because I run a 12 lane FATS and I have seen most of the scenarios. You only test yourself on things you are seeing for the first time.

Unfortunately they only had two choices in lethal weapons; a Glock 23 and a Sig 228. Neither fit my hand but I picked the Glock. Naturally, it would not fit in my 1911 holster so I had to stick it in my belt (concealed). Probably half of the more than a dozen scenarios ended up with coming to the ready (subjects escalating the situation, body language, etc).

One scenario applies directly to this thread; It was an Active Shooter in a High School. As the "testee", you see through the eyes of the camera, moves down the hall you first see students who have been shot. Then one of the officers is shot from a connecting hall (but you cannot see the gun or the subject). Then you pie the corner to see the subject with a Glock to the head of a student who is down on his knees (you can see the chest and head of the shooter).

I shot this guy 3 times in the head coming from the low ready with the finger completely out of the trigger guard (they have a camera filming the "testee"). The first shot showed up as .5 seconds though I am not quite sure when the timer starts...I dont think it was when I first saw the guy.

Just for informational purposes I tried it again, keeping the gun in the "Sul" position that some folks these days mistake as a "ready" position (it is not, it is a "safety" position). This time the student being held hostage died before I could get the gun up and shoot though the time was about .75 seconds.

Just a point of reference. It probably does not mean much. No one can predict how these things will go.

Instructive non-the-less.

Riposte

PS; I noticed a lot of things I did wrong in these scenarios. That is what we train for. Learn how to improve.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by Riposte1
Just for informational purposes I tried it again, keeping the gun in the "Sul" position that some folks these days mistake as a "ready" position (it is not, it is a "safety" position). This time the student being held hostage died before I could get the gun up and shoot though the time was about .75 seconds.



"Sul" position? Not familiar with that (or maybe just not familiar with the terminology).

A bit more info if possible???

[Riposte1]

Aim to Maim;
Sure. This is something that has been making the rounds in training circles for about 8 to 10 years now. Difficult to explain and I am not sure a link is allowed here...a picture really is worth a thousand words.

Best I can explain it is that one draws the gun back into the "Third Eye" position which some advocate (I dont but most know what it is; the barrel of the weapon is paralell to the ground pointed forward, and the wrists are more or less resting on your mid-section - or your body armor).

Now simply release your grip with your support hand (left if you are right handed) but maintining the contact of the index finger with the underside of the trigger guard as you "unfold" your grip and bend the wrist of the firing hand (maintaining a firing grip) and point the muzzle downward between your feet.

"Sul" is Portugese for South - the muzzle is pointing "South" ....sort of.

The position was conceived by Alan Brosnan and Max Joseph of Tactical Explosive Entry School (TEES) and they happened to be teaching in Brazil at the time (the official language of Brazil is Portugese). Later Alan started another (TEES) in South America and even later he sold his school in Arkansas.

Alan has said repeatedly and consistently that Sul is a "safety position" used for moving around no-shoots, not a "ready" position. However, like many things, so many instructors and gun writers have picked up on something a little unique and spread it around without researching the purpose or beginnings.

Hope this helps. If not send me a PM and I will try to point you toward a picture.

Riposte

[Aim to maim]

Understood. Thanks for the detailed explanation.