OLN Dangerous Game - Good & Bad

[fabsroman]

I watched OLN Dangerous Game tonight and they were hunting for leapord in Zimbabwe Africa. I found it quite refreshing that they aired the episode even though they never once saw a leapord. They did get to kill a bunch if impala to use as bait, but that was about it.

What I found quite disturbing was the gun control of the "professional hunter", being guided by another "professional hunter." The hunter was holding his gun by the barrel over his shoulder with the butt of the gun pointed behind him. However, the guide was walking in front of him the entire time and the muzzle was pointed directly at the guide several times. I started to look closer and the bolt was actually closed on the gun. How can we expect people to observe the proper gun safety rules when this "professional hunter" does not even do it.

Again, today's show was both good and bad, but I will watch a couple more to see if I really like this show since I have only watched it twice so far.

[PJgunner]

Fabs. Apparently that the way that do it in Africa. :rolleyes: FWIW, have you ever tried to carry a heavy rifle in that manner? From what I hear, they also frown on slings for carrying the rifle.
I believe though that they insist the chamber not be loaded until the final stalk.
I've only seen one episode of that show and some fellow shot an elephant.
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

The same fellow that shot the elephant, I believe his name is McCain, is the same person that was hunting the Leapord and using very poor muzzle control. I don't care how heavy that gun is, and whether or not one thinks that the chamber is unloaded, the reason we never point the muzzle of any gun at anybody is to ensure that if all of the other precautions fail, nothing will end up bad. Accidents happen when people fail to observe all the safety rules, and quite honestly, I am surprised that they happen because a person has to ignore a bunch of rules.

[8X56MS]

News flash, They do things differently in other countries :D
Sometimes, they really don't care what Americans think of their quaint customs either.

[fabsroman]

8x56MS,

Here's another newsflash for you, it was on American TV, so you would think they would try to make the show appeal to its audience. I highly doubt this show has many native African viewers of it. Heck, I doubt DirectTV or OLN for that matter, is available in Africa, but I could be wrong.

Trust me, I know that things are different in different parts of the world. I have visited Europe and my parents came directly from Italy. However, that doesn't mean I have to put up with them here in the USA or endorse things I think are detrimental to the USA. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to watch a show like that and think it is okay to point a gun at somebody. They don't sit down on the show and say, "Kids, here in Africa we do things a little different than you do in American because we carry heavy rifles around all day long. We carry them by the barrel slung over our shoulder and pointed directly at the person in front of us, BUT we make sure they are unloaded at all times until we are just about to shoot an animal." Kids pick up way too many bad habits from TV, and I wouldn't want that to be a habit that my children learn.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
8x56MS,

Here's another newsflash for you, it was on American TV, so you would think they would try to make the show appeal to its audience. I highly doubt this show has many native African viewers of it. Heck, I doubt DirectTV or OLN for that matter, is available in Africa, but I could be wrong.

Trust me, I know that things are different in different parts of the world. I have visited Europe and my parents came directly from Italy. However, that doesn't mean I have to put up with them here in the USA or endorse things I think are detrimental to the USA. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to watch a show like that and think it is okay to point a gun at somebody. They don't sit down on the show and say, "Kids, here in Africa we do things a little different than you do in American because we carry heavy rifles around all day long. We carry them by the barrel slung over our shoulder and pointed directly at the person in front of us, BUT we make sure they are unloaded at all times until we are just about to shoot an animal." Kids pick up way too many bad habits from TV, and I wouldn't want that to be a habit that my children learn.

as far as i know tv's have two endearing features #1 they can be turned off manualy or #2 they can be turned on and off with a remote control. thats for lazy lard a$$ed indivuals who can't struggle 20 feet across the floor to accomplish #1.

as long as we? are flaming tv, how about all the sex and violence they teach our kids on tv? where is the outcry? do you realize there is more money spent in this country advertising boob jobs and levitra and that buy the year 2025 there will be an aging population with alzheimers who have perky boobs and are sexually aroused and can not recall what either condition is for?

com'on fabs, the filming is done in a foreign country. things are looked at different in europe and africa. when you see a commercial on tv in europe and a lady is taking a shower you see the whole lady stark naked, i thought my wife was gonna go blind the first time she seen that trick after she got to germany. she came off that sofa like an atlas missile off a launch pad. the add was for irish spring soap.

if you have children you will learn one thing really quick, they will learn all bad habits from tv, their friends etc. your job as a parent is to insure they don't do those things that are not acceptable. we do this by "example". if that doesn't work a properly applied boot and placing their backside under their shoulder blades is another option. the don't do as i do, do as i say, will not hack the mission. kids recognize hypocrisy as soon as it rears it's ugly head.

i had to be tough on my kids because i worked long hours and most times six days a week. they sure got their share of butt whoopin's . now that they are in their early 30's to mid 40's every once in awhile they will say thanks for being so hard on them and being strict. they learned a lot and apply some? of the same methods with their kids. i don't say a word.........i just smile and thank god.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

I seen the show you mentioned and another one I don't remember the 'pro hunter' name but he was hunting red stag. They had to get down and crawl to the top of a hill and I watched the guide go first followed by the muzzle of the crawling man behind. Where are the technical advisors during editing even? Ever see adds for camo clothing with a left handed bow shooter shooting a right handed bow?

[fabsroman]

Billy D,

You are completely right. I agree that there is way too much sex on TV. I watch very little TV, but have started watching all of three shows now. Lost, Invasion, and Grey's Anatomy. I almost stopped watching Grey's Anatomy 2 weeks ago because that episode had everybody in the hospital sleeping with everybody else. It was all about cheating on spouses and crazy sex. My wife convinced me to watch one more episode and last week's was pretty good. So, I'll watch this weekend's. I still like Lost, but I am starting to lose interest in Invasion. One of the main reasons I watched Invasion was because it came on right after Lost. Now that Lost has been airing a lot of repeats, I tend not to break away from work or whatever else I am doing at the time to watch Invasion.

As far as the naked women on TV in Germany are concerned, you are in Germany. When in Rome, do as the Romans. I completely understand that. When airing a TV show in the US, do as the Americans. Do not show a "professional hunter" pointing the muzzle of a gun, with a closed bolt, at his fellow "professional hunter." If this is an African custim and you are airing the show in Africa, which probably doesn't have many anti's, fine. Just don't do it here in America.

I was over a friend's house last night playing cards and the TV happened to be on. When the news came on, all I heard about was one shooting after another.

As far as raising kids is concerned, I agree with you completely. Parents set an example that kids will follow. My dad drank a lot, and still does on occassion and he always said that drinking was fine as long as we didn't smoke or do drugs. That is probably true, but he left out the moderation part. Anyway, I learned at a young age that I don't want to be stubbling around or throwing up, so I avoid alcohol. My brothers made up for the share that I didn't drink.

[Skyline]

Billy D...right on target, as I would expect.

There are a number of issues with respect to the gun carry you see by the PH's on the TV shows, and yes that is very typical for over there.

Point number one.........these guys live and breath hunting. They are in the field for many months of the year, in some cases all year, when they change countries to follow the safari seasons. Typically the real PH's spend a lot of time in dangerous game country and pack rifles around for thousands of hours a year, not like the average hunter in North America who only goes out to play for a couple of days a year.

If you have ever carried a big double for a while you would soon learn that that over the shoulder carry is a comfortable one and no, many of them don't use slings as they can get you killed in thornbrush country in a charge situation. When you throw your rifle up but the sling gets hooked by a couple of wait-a-bit thorns as an elephant is bearing down on you....well that can ruin your whole day.

A second thing to consider is that many PH's have served in the military and fought in the various bush wars in Africa. Ever watch the military and how they pack their rifles in the field..............you will notice the similarities. There is a respect and trust that military personel have in each other with regards to how they handle firearms and they do not worry about barrels being pointed at them unless the handlers stance tells them they should worry.

I would guess that if you watched the news at night when the men are in the field and active you will see all kinds of what we hunters tend to view as 'unsafe practices' with barrels getting pointed at other soldiers. I have seen the over the shoulder carry holding the barrel and across the shoulder carry (sideways) hundreds of times in actual field conditions on TV. I bet you don't twig on those strips of film and suggest that they should not be shown on AMERICAN TV.

Hell your kids can watch all kinds of bad firearms handling on just about every shoot em up, blast em movie that comes on TV.

Just remember that things aren't the same when you are tripping through a safari concession in Zimbabwe, where you could run into a herd of nasty cow elephant, a wounded buffalo or a big cat that had someone piss in his cornflakes that morning. It isn't the same as hunting bambi in the woods of Pennsylvania.

I have been there and had the firearms handled like that in my presence and I worried not. I trust those guys and their gun handling and I know they need to be ready to shoot at a moments notice at times. A friend of mine was killed a couple years ago by a cape buffalo in Tanzania, and the PH was hit as well but lived. They never got a shot off and there was no warning. It can happen that fast.

Those boys aren't going to change the way they 'carry' to please you when you are watching TV. As Billy said there is an on/off switch............you could also explain to your kids why it is done differently in some places.............and I think most of us would rather see it unfold on TV as it actually happens, as opposed to staging it to suit the viewing public. God knows there are already enough of the hunting shows where the story line is far removed from what actually happened on the hunt.

[fabsroman]

"God knows there are already enough of the hunting shows where the story line is far removed from what actually happened on the hunt."

I'll whole heartedly agree with that statement, and I was glad to see that they aired an unsuccessful hunt.

As far as the muzzle control is concerned, I would hate for a trigger to get caught on "a couple of wait-a-bit thorns" as the muzzle is pointed at my backside.

Regarding the use of a sling, to hold the guns, there are ways to use one so that the sling won't get too much in the way. The first way that comes to mind is by slinging the gun in front of you with the muzzle pointed to the bottom left and the butt up to your right shoulder. If these guys are "professional hunters" they should be able to deal with the sling or they should be conditioned enough to carry a big rifle all day long or they should just not hunt when they cannot carry the rifle properly.

As far as comparing the miltary to these "professional hunters", there is no comparison. Military personnel do not have the luxury of staying home because they do not feel like carrying their gear. They HAVE to go into life threatening situations, regardless of how much their arms hurt or not.

If I were to go on a dangerous game safari, I would prefer to get mauled by whatever I am hunting, because that is a choice one makes when they decide to hunt dangerous game, instead of getting a .416 Rigby in my back because the "professional hunter's" gun got caught on "a couple of wait-a-bit thorns."

As far as the movies are concerned, yeah, they exhibit horrible muzzle control, but something tells me that muzzle control isn't on the producer's mind (i.e., most of the people in Hollywood do not even know the rules of proper firearms safety). These OLN shows are hunter related and I would hope that OLN is trying to promote the sport and educate people about the sport.

With all that said, I am sorry to hear about your friend. That really does suck and hearing about that kind of stuff makes me re--think going to Africa on a dangerous game hunt and/or hunting grizzly here in the USA.

[Skyline]

Well I am not going to waste any more time on this thread as it is unlikely that a person will get anywhere until those of you with strong opinions about something you have never done have actually gone and done it. since that isn't going to happen with most........I may as well save my breath.

As for my friend.....he died doing what he loved doing and we should all be so lucky. His family sees it that way as well.

When I go grizzly hunting or cape buffalo hunting I always know there is an element of danger...............that would hardly stop me from doing it.

Despite all the worries you seem to have about the PH's and their not being very professional in their gun handling...when is the last time you heard about a PH accidentally shooting his hunter???

[rubicon]

Never heard of a PH accidently shooting anyone (now on the other hand ...a VP ?) LOL I got to watch the filming of a deer hunt this fall and quickly saw, as with any other tv show it is mainly about the ratings. The outfitter was reluctant to shoot a doe but the producer said he had to have a kill in order to air the hunt so the outfitter shot a young doe then handed the gun to the fellow who they portrayed as the hunter and they reshot the shooting scene (cant film the hunter and the hunted at the same time) then they said "Here we selectively kill does to maintain herd management." Same thing with the fishing shows, three boats: one with filming crew- one with the fishermen- one out of site of the camera with the fish in the livewell , just cast over to the third boat and they hook you up. But for me watching some of these shows can be enjoyable, seeing the outdoors and some of the techniques used in hunting/fishing and as entertainment they are definitely better than some of the other trash on tv these days.

[Skyline]

Unfortunately for me I have been guiding in the camps when some of these guy have been in there filming........in BC, NWT, Manitoba.

Some of these guys left me cold and I will not have anything to do with their shows, buying or recommending their DVD's. I have personally seen a few of these guys and their crew re-stage things to come out the hero, when in fact the kill was a depressing matter.

they were also very demanding in camp and made the regular hunters who paid the price to be there for their special hunt/holiday feel like bar maids. Rude and arrogant behaviour....thank god all of them are not like that. But, some of them were big names and they are undoubtedly in it all for the money. Their actions speak louder than words.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

I did a search to see if I could find any professional hunter accidents in Africa. I spent about 10 minutes looking and found absolutely nothing. However, I did run into a story of a professional hunter's assistant shooting a client in the back of the head as the assistant was trying to shoot a supposedly wounded grizzly. That was an interesting read.

I have had muzzles pointed at me in the past, by accident or ignorance, and it just never gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. For the most part, I am unlucky, so I can see myself being the first person shot in the back with a .458 by a professional hunter. I read too many true stories where negligence turns into death. Let's assume that the trigger does get caught on a twig and the client is shot in the back. I can guarantee that the PH would be liable to the family, at least based upon US law. Then again, the outfitter probably has the client sign a waiver/release/hold harmless agreement.

[Skyline]

Fabs as you know the release/waiver...what every you want to call it is not worth the paper it is printed onbut many insurance companies require that the outfitter use one. All you have to do is prove that the outfitter/guide was negligent and the waiver becomes useless.

It doesn't take getting shot to get sued...................over the last 30 years of guiding/outfitting I have seen clients sue outfitters for just about everything and anything. Once in a while it was the outfitter or guides fault, but most of the time it is the client acting like a moron. I have seen them do things that are incredibly stupid even after you have warned them again and again.

The guide assistant shoot..............that was in Alaska wasn't it?

[fabsroman]

Sorry, I thought I put Alaska in my post, but in reading it again, I didn't. That's what happens when I post at 2:00 in the morning. To answer your question, yes it was in Alaska. The assistant guide was standing behind the hunter/client. The client was kneeling down to make the shot. The client supposedly wounded the bear and the guide gave the assistant the order to shoot the bear. Just as the assistant pulled the trigger, the client stood up and was shot in the back of the head, dying instantly.

I have never dealt with a Hold Harmless Agreement before the accident. I have seen many used in settling claims. What I haven't seen is a Hold Harmless, signed before the accident, being attacked on its vailidity. If I get some time later today, I'll do a little research on it so that I can feel better about signing the stupid thing when I go to this game farms on the Eastern Shore.

[bru]

I appreciate the content. These are all current topics in our house with squishy plans on the horizon. When we've got kids I will definately be in their grill about always being informed, always ask if you don't know, think. Kids are smarter than they try to let on. Don't let em tell you any different. Empower them to be proud of making decisions and choices when they're young and their habits will be pretty sound. I figure their never off the hook though. Always look out for younger folks because they want to know. Make sure you give them straight facts. Let them process and apply it. I grew up w/ GI Joe cartoons="Knowing is half the battle". Shoot, you know it. Being a know it all gets kids in lots of trouble. As we show by example here every day, There is always more to learn.:D I appreciate your discussion of these topics. I like this.

"Keep my words positive, because my words become behaviors.
Keep my behaviors positive, because my behaviors become habits.
Keep my habit positive, because my habits become my values.
Keep my values positive, because they become my destiny."

Mahatma Gandhi

[Nulle]

Guess I have seen several hunting films in Africa and thats the way they do things. Not saying I would but that is them and this is me lol

[hnter]

1. they do not do things our way.
2. the guns were unloaded.
3. they often hunt at night using light gathering optics which is usually frowned upon here. see #1.
4. their ideas and our ideas of gun handling and shooting safety are much different than ours, :eek: see #1.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I'll agree that hunting habits are different in Africa and whether they are right or wrong, only time will tell. I have seen and heard second hand about guns going off unexpectedly. First story was my brother when we were young. He was pulling the hammer back on a .410 and it slipped from under his thumb. Well, the round went off.

Another story is from where I shoot sporting clays, skeet, and trap frequently. A guy came into the clubhouse with a loaded gun and it went off, shooting a hole into the ceiling.

Last story is of a guy coming back from deer hunting. He went into the trailer, opened the bolt on his rifle to make sure that nothing was in it, closed the bolt and "dry" fired it to relieve the tension on the spring and fired a bullet through the roof of the trailer. According to him, the cartridge must have gotten stuck in the chamber and not ejected when he pulled the bolt handle back.

Accidents happen, you just hope that a bunch do not connect such that there is a Cheney incident.

How many professional hunters are there in Africa? If you guys had to guess, are there more professional hunters in Africa than hunters here. Probably not, so the odds would be in their favor to go accident free for while.

Oh well, I have to get back to work. Too much work and not enough time in the day to debate fun stuff.

[Nulle]

I would venture a guess there are plenty of pro-hunters in Africa as this is big $ for that country.
I remember as a kid seeing the pictures of OConner ect in the SportsAfield mags. and they were carrying guns over the shoulder so this sure is nothing new to that country.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by fabsroman
8x56MS,

Here's another newsflash for you, it was on American TV, so you would think they would try to make the show appeal to its audience. I highly doubt this show has many native African viewers of it. Heck, I doubt DirectTV or OLN for that matter, is available in Africa, but I could be wrong.

Trust me, I know that things are different in different parts of the world. I have visited Europe and my parents came directly from Italy. However, that doesn't mean I have to put up with them here in the USA or endorse things I think are detrimental to the USA. If I had kids, I wouldn't want them to watch a show like that and think it is okay to point a gun at somebody. They don't sit down on the show and say, "Kids, here in Africa we do things a little different than you do in American because we carry heavy rifles around all day long. We carry them by the barrel slung over our shoulder and pointed directly at the person in front of us, BUT we make sure they are unloaded at all times until we are just about to shoot an animal." Kids pick up way too many bad habits from TV, and I wouldn't want that to be a habit that my children learn.


Fabs I agree with you that I don't like to see stuff like that on TV either. For the simple reason it gives the PUBLIC a poor image of hunters.

However I totally disagree with you about kids picking up bad habits from watching T.V. . If you teach your kids right from wrong they will do the same thing you just did. They will notice that the way the person on TV is carrying the gun is WRONG and think "why would they do that"

My son is 9 and he has come to me more than once after hearing a new clip about a kid getting shot after finding the parents gun and he was just livid about the fact that the parent did NOT teach the kids Gun Safety or have the guns locked up where children couldn't get to them. I had to listen to him (at 7 years old) rant for at least 30 minutes about something stupid one hunter did on one of those OLN shows. Don't remember right now what it was but at 7 years old he picked up on it and went off for half an hour until I finally told him, he was right and the people on TV were wrong but enough was enough. LOL

We also (son and I ) just had the conversation about Video Game "making kids do bad things" Seems that they were talking about video game ratings at school and I bought him a video game called Medal of Honor that is rated M for Mature and he didn't want to play it because he thought it was going to be too violent. I told hime that violence in video games doesn't make children violent and it doesn't make kids do bad things like shoot other people. I told him that is a damn piss poor excuse for a Bad ass kid that did something wrong and doesn't want to accept responsibility for his/her action. Nick and I have been palying Medal of honor every night since the talk and I asked him night before last if he felt like he wanted to go out and kill someone and cut them up. He gave me this wierd look and saind NO WAY Why would you say thet?? I told him because he was playing such a violent video game and I wanted to make sure it wasn't affecting him. He laughed and we continued killing Japs and Krauts for another couple hours.

[fabsroman]

Very good points. My brothers and I play those video games and we haven't gone out there and killed anybody. However, I think TV and video games help to accelerate the warped mind. Meaning, if somebody has something wrong upstairs, TV and video games helps to accelerate it.

[DaMadman]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Very good points. My brothers and I play those video games and we haven't gone out there and killed anybody. However, I think TV and video games help to accelerate the warped mind. Meaning, if somebody has something wrong upstairs, TV and video games helps to accelerate it.

Good Point.

I did however have to tell my son that when he went to school on Monday and talked to his buddies about the gam that it probably would be a good Idea to refrain from using terminology like killing Japs and Krauts....... LOL

I also however explained to him that terminology was the correct AND APPROPRIATE verbage back in the WWII Era and when talking to his Great Grandfather (who happened to be in WWII) that he could use those words without having to worry about offending anyone. Hahahaha