AR-15; AR-10 Recommendations

[fabsroman]

I'm planning on getting an AR-15 and AR-10 in the near future, but I do not know too much about these guns. I have looked at Armalite as a starting point and am interested in the AR-10(T) Ultra and the AR-15(T), both of which have 24" stainless steel target barrels on them, with the AR-10 being chambered in .300 WSM.

I have also looked at Rock River Arms' website and they have an AR-10 equivalent coming out late this summer. Rock River Arms' suggested retail prices are a lot lower than those given by Armalite.

Are the prices about the same on the street? Are the guns about the same in quality? If not, is it worth it to pay the additional money for the Armalites?

What other manufacturers of the AR-10 and AR-15 are out there, other than Bushmaster? Should I be looking elsewhere for a quality rifle? At most, I am willing to pay $4,000 total for both rifles.

[TreeDoc]

Hey, to each his own, you know that Fabs, but why so many Dinero for a lead slingin' gas gun?

Dang, I've got a Bushy V-Match A3 upper that's sub MOA (1/2") just shooting Blackhill's 52gr Reloads and I have well under a grand into the upper or lower combined if you don't consider the glass.

I also have an AK Shorty as an upper and even that mutha kicks tail.

I don't know, I guess I have always viewed the AR's as a SHTF gun yet being extremely accurate all the same as well as a "I must have because they say I can't anymore" rifle. :rolleyes: The Bushy does that for me, they are very well made components, probably the best without going fully custom. I have used it for Varminting out to 300 yards quite successfully but I admit, my "go to" varminter is my Weatherby SVM in .22-250.

Just food for thought.

[fabsroman]

My brother has a Bushmaster AR-15 and I hate the trigger on that gun. I was hoping to get something with a match grade trigger on it. Does Bushmaster make such a beast, or would I have to deal with an after market trigger?

Edited to add:

I initially checked out the Bushmaster website, but I wanted an AR-10 and not an AR-15 and Bushmaster does not make the AR-10 anymore, if it ever did. They do not offer the AR-10 on their website right now, and if recollection serves me correctly, they were just discontinuing it when I started looking for these guns. The Bushmaster varmint/target AR-15 costs about the same as the Armalite, maybe a little less. The AR-10 I want is the expensive gun out of the two. I think it is listed at something like $2,300, but I have seen it for sale at around $2,000. The AR-15 I am looking at is about $1,200 to $1,300.

[TreeDoc]

I installed a Jewel 2 stage trigger in mine. They're about $200 and incredible! They are fully customizeable in that if you were to shoot your AR competitively, you would need a 3 lb trigger. You can set the take up for 3 pounds but the release for 8 ounces or go the other way, take up real light with release heavier. It's all a Do-it Yourself install as well. I don't believe there is a better trigger on the market.


I have been out of the loop so I don't know if they do the AR10 configuration, perhaps you know that info already.

I sort of consider Bushmaster the "Dillon" of the AR world. They are very good with customer service.

[Tater]

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/weapons/pcwa3s20.asp

I got a Bushmaster a few years ago for $800 and never had a complaint. I don't know about the others but Bushmaster makes a nice bang-stick.

[Steverino]

Hey Fabs,


You may want to check out the below website- www.dpmsinc.com as I have seen them advertise in alot of my monthly rags. I know nothing about this company's offerings but it does look like they manufacture an AR10 equivolant.

BTW- My brother also shoots a Bushy and I do think that they are accurate-having shot it on a couple of different occassions. Good luck and enjoy the process!

[TreeDoc]

I have seen and used some DPMS products and have never been terribly impressed with their quality of workmanship. I bought an A2 handle/scope mount for my A3 Flat Top and it was so far out of plumb that my Leupold didn't have enough adjustment to put a shot on target.

My local firing range used to sell DPMS stuff when it was legal to do so in California and it was really raunchy stuff compared to Bushmaster's equipment.

Perhaps they have cleaned up their act since then, I would inspect very closely before I would consider any thing of theirs.

[fabsroman]

Last night, I tried to do a search on AR-10 Rifle Manufacturers and DPMS came up in a gunblast.com article. Those guys seemed to like the three guns that they tested out from DPMS, so I checked out their website and their .300 Remington Short Action Ultra Mag vermint setup costs about the same as the Armalite .300 WSM, so I'd probably stick with the Armalite. Their AR-15 offerings were in about the same ball park too. It looks like I might just have to go with the Armalite series, bite the bullet, and pay the money.

[hofts]

i have always heard olympic arms make good ones, great barrels.
gunshop here in town sells a lot of them, guys at range say they are very accurate. i have a bushy varminter in 223 and quite happy.

i think the site is
olympicarms.com

[hofts]

sorry, it is
olyarms.com

[quigleysharps4570]

Always was a Colt fan myself. Had 4 of them at one time...course that was before all the changes the government made them all do. So I don't have a clue what they're like anymore.

[Ridge Runner]

fabro's
How bout this, an AR15 varminter of your choice, I like the 24" fluted 1-8 twist, and an extra upper in 25 wssm, and later on this year there is a 300 wssm coming out. Not quite the power of the rsaum or wsm but about 2.5-3 pounds lighter and they'll all work off the same lower.
But basicly the story on AR's is, they're all about the same, the only fully In-House manufacture of AR-type rifles is Olympic arms. The rest just contract others to make parts for them and then they assemble, those "others" also sell parts to any other AR distributor who is interested. Now the distributors buy where they get the best price so thats why RRA uses wilson barrels and J&T uses shaw and so on, other than that you could buy an AR of every make and model and they could be made by the same outfit. hope this info helps
RR

Just checked one the links in my fave folder, check this out
http://www.accuracysystemsinc.com/ar10_supermagnum.html

now if you can buy a custom AR-10 upper in a wssm for 1600.00 I'm sure you can get a lower for less than 600.00, you could buy one stripped and get an AR-15 lower kit then you only have to buy about 3-4 other small parts, thats all that don't interchange, and they're just pins and springs.

[fabsroman]

RR,

Accuracy Systems was one of the first sites that I checked out. I love those guns, but they are really pricey. I wouldn't mind getting an AR-15 and AR10 from Armalite and then buying some of Accuracy Systems uppers for them.

The one big question I have is whether or not their uppers will fit on a lower for the AR-10(T)Ultra. Is the lower of an AR-10(T) Ultra, the Armalite gun chambered for the .300 RSAUM, any different than a standard AR-10 lower?

[Ridge Runner]

all Ar-10 uppers will fit any AR-10 lowers, some lowers use a different mag though.
All ar-15 uppers will fit any AR-15 lower with the exception of some colts, for a few years colt made they'res different so they wouldn't fit any lower, spin spacing was different. Now colt also made some small pin lowers too those either go on a small pin uppers or you use and offset pin set. as far as the rest, just mix and match, I have 3 lowers all RRA NM and I have 4 different makes of uppers which I interchange as I wish.
Hope this helps.
RR

[Ridge Runner]

fabro, if you buy a complete rifle they a 12% tax on it somewhere along the line just cause you ordered a complete gun. You may wanna look into buying the lower, which has to go through an FFL, and then buying an upper, which can be shipped right to your home, would save you some money doin it that way.
Your talking 1200.00 for an AR15(T), heck you could get a RRA NM lower and a custom upper built for that,
near as I can remember the (T) series were just heavy barrelled free floated uppers, thats about a standard configeration and I think you can get the same upper with a premieum barrel on it for that. last year the price for a 22" SUM upper chambered in 25 WSSM for a lil over 800.00, now a 223 or 5.56 would be lots cheaper since its the standard caliber and the SUM barrels are top notch. email this guy he builds both AR-10's and AR-15's using oly parts, he's my go to guru on AR's and a heck of a nice guy dtech1@paulbunyan.net
RR

[fabsroman]

RR,

I appreciate all the help you have provided on this subject. My brother has a Bushmaster AR-15 and we have a couple of mutual friends that have AR-15's, but these guys barely ever shoot and they only bought the guns because they looked cool on display in the local gun shops here. My brother is about the only one that can shoot them decently, and I truly hate the trigger on his gun and our buddies' guns. I know quite a bit about shotguns and bolt action rifles, but will readily admit that I am clueless regarding AR's.

It took me a couple minutes to figure out what RRA meant, but I finally figured it out. I just got back from Rock River Arms' website and had checked that one out too on several occassions but never paid attention to the fact that they sell lowers separately. Do they sell an AR-10 lower, or is the AR-10 and AR-15 lower the exact same thing, with the upper being the only difference between the two rifles? For $400 each, I'd order both lowers today and then deal with getting uppers later because I really like the thought of an upper on these guns that is chambered for a magnum type cartridge. Might even start out with an upper for the AR-15 from Accuracy Arms. I was looking at their Leviathan uppers and that looks like an awesome cartridge. I'll have to look a little closer at ballistics and powder consumption, but it looks awesome.

Other than Accuracy Arms, are there any other uppers that you would recommend?

How about glass for these guns? I love Burris and was thinking about putting Burris Black Diamond or Euro Diamond scopes on both guns. The scopes have a 30mm tube. I was thinking about putting something on them around 4-16 with a 44mm bell? Would that be too little, too much, or just enough magnification. I have a 3-12x 44mm on my .300 Win Mag and .270 bolt rifles and a 8-32x 44mm on my .220 Swift bolt rifle.

With all these options, I am really getting excited about this purchase, but I am also getting a headache.

Can you PM me with some AR boards where I might be able to learn a little more about these guns before plunging into two of them?

Again, thanks for all the help.

[hofts]

just for fun, you will like what you see.!

lesbaer.com

[Mil Dot]

Fabs,
I have a buddy that has a Rock River 223 varmint, 26' Bull barrel, that shoots like a champ. The only thing about the RR is to be sure to get the match trigger. Their standard trigger is cr*p. After he bought it we had gone back to the dealer to inquire about adjustability ... not. The dealer was nice enough to hand us a gun with a match trigger on it ... nice and crisp. To bad the guy wasn't nice enough to mention this to mu friend prior to the purchase. Oh well, I guess he gets to go after marlet with a jewell.

MD

[Ridge Runner]

Steve at www.adco.com has always had the best prices on lowers that I found an RRA nat. match (nat. natch= good trigger)
last time I checked they were 302.00, delivered. that was when they were 350.00+ S&H from RRA.
No AR-10 lowers are not the same, the housing is bigger to accept the 308 length mag, but all the parts are interchangeable except for a few small ones, as I stated in above post.
Not sure about armalite but I'm certain Eagle arms (sister co. to armalite) sells lowers separately.
RR

Will pm with more info

[Lycanthrope]

One thing I've learned after several AR's.........

The manufacturers mark up the prices....a lot. Please don;t pay $900 for a shelf rifle......

99% of your performance and reliability is in the upper. Lowers really don't matter much as long as they are in spec.

You can "build" a semi custom AR15 for $1000 or under and have a guaranteed .5 MOA gun. The simplest solution is to get a RRA or Stag (both made by CMT.....the only difference is the rollmark) from Eagle Firearms (http://www.eaglefirearms.net/) . That will run $200 complete. RRA/Stag lowers are tight fitting to the upper and don't have the rattle the Bushy's tend to get.

Next, mate that lower to a quality upper. If you want a varmint or competition gun, the Clark Gator (http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/gatorarV.htm) is guaranteed to run .5 MOA with handloads. You also get a carbon fiber float tube, chromed bolt and carrier and match barrel. Another option is the White Oak Armament (http://www.whiteoakarmament.com/) uppers. These have the 1:7 twist to run the heavier bullets out to 600 yards+.

With those varmint/long range setups you can have money left over for a custom trigger as well for your $1000 and change........a LOT more than buying off the shelf.

Of course, you could pull out the stops and buy aJP (http://www.jprifles.com/)

As for the AR10, that can be a bit more pricey, but you could just get another lower and mate it to a 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, .243 WSSM, .25 WSSM, .50 Beowulf, .458 SOCOM, .204, or any other upper than will fit a standard AR15 platform.

Oly makes the .25 WSSM and .243 WSSM uppers and those have the capability of mid sized game guns as well as pushing lighter bullets at 4000fps........

[Lycanthrope]

P.S. - all the guns I have shoot under 1 MOA with 24.5gr of Varget and the 69gr Sierra Match King.

Gator...
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/gator.JPG
White Oak Service Rifle/CMP gun with Jewell trigger
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/woak.JPG
Olympic OA93PT with removeable stock
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/oly.JPG
Model 1 kit gun built for $550
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/Model1small.JPG
3 shot .65 MOA group at 100 yards with above "cheapo POS kit" gun.....
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/model1group.JPG


And more.......

[fabsroman]

Okay, I think I made up my mind. I am going to get the AR-10(T) Ultra from Armalite which uses the .300 RSAUM cartridge because I think I can get it for around $2,000. Trying to find AR-10 lowers and custom uppers is pretty tough, but I did happen to find some uppers from Accuracy Systems for $1,600 in .270 WSM, 7mm WSM, and .300 WSM. Actually, I just found those uppers a couple of minutes ago, and am now debating whether or not to buy one of those uppers and a $400 lower, or to buy the entire Armalite AR-10(T) Ultra. Buying a complete gun from Accuracty Systems will cost me $2,200 or more.

Along with the AR-10, I am going to get a Rock River AR-15 lower from adcofirearms.com. Then, I am going to get a custom upper in .25 WSSM from Dedicated Technology. I really like what I saw on the limited website for Dedicated Technology. He uses Oly barrels and he provides the WSSM magnums in .25, .243 and .223. I figure I can buy a couple more uppers for the AR-15 as time goes by (i.e., I can afford the uppers and additional scopes).

How hard is it to change uppers on an AR-15, and does it affect the scope's zero on them? The latter is the more important question of the two.

Last but not least, does anybody use the picattiny rail on the gas block for anything. I wouldn't mind mounting a laser sight on the AR-15, but it looks as though mounting it on the gas block would get in the way of the scope.

[Lycanthrope]

You pop two pins and the upper comes off the lower. Takes about 45 seconds.

The uppers stay zeroed when you change them. The lower or how it mates to the upper (some are sloppy) have zero impact on accuracy. All the Accuwedge does is stop the rattle (buy a RRA lower and you won't have rattle anyway)

You have to be careful what you mount on the front sight block because they get hot. Most people choose to mount accessories on a railed handguard. Most blocks are railed for the attachment of back up/flip up iron sights.

In most cases you will mount a scope on a riser to be comfortable and you'll see right over the front sight base and even a full A2 front sight. My guns don't use risers, but I shoot with my cheekbone slammed into to the stock for a consistent index and make sure the scope's eye relief and focus is perfect at that point. You can also get a 4 railed gas block if you desire for a small cost. Actually, I have an unused one.. make me an offer. :D

[Lycanthrope]

P.S. the RRA two stage triggers are OK, but not as nice as a Chip McCormick (single stage), JP (single stage) or a Jewell (two stage). Even in service rifle, everyone is sending their RRA triggers to John Holliger at White Oak to make them worthy. The RRA has a good rep for service rifle, but remember the overall pull must be 4.5lbs and that's not as light as I prefer for a target gun if I have my way. The other triggers listed above will beat that.

You'll save that extra $100 if you buy a lower from Eagle with a standard trigger and then you'll also have a backup if your match unit fails.......been down that road......

[Lycanthrope]

You'll save $20 buying the lower at www.eaglefirearms.net over ADCO.

A few more pennies if you buy the Stag lower. As I said before the RRA and Stag are IDENTICAL. Both made by CMT at their shop and the only difference is the stamp. More money left over for goodies.......

[fabsroman]

Good Lord, there are so many options here. I think I am going to start with a lower and a standard trigger and move from there. Where can I buy the Jewell trigger and what is it going to cost me? I am surprised that there aren't a ton of websites out there with a ton of accessories for the AR-15. I was just looking at accessories on one of them, and to change the front barrel shroud to a Daniel Defense shroud wherein I could attach accessories, it runs about $400. Just buying accessories for the gun could cost more than the gun itself and that isn't including the scope.

As I mentioned before, I would like to put a laser on these rifles, so does anybody know of anyone out there that makes a barrel shroud that is mostly smooth, but with 360 degree attachment ability toward the front of it. An example would be the AR-10(T) Ultra from Armalite, but I believe that accessory system us on the gas block and I don't want my accessories frying as mentioned above.

I think this is the most complicated gun purchase I have ever contemplated because of all the options.

[fabsroman]

I think I am going crazy. I just looked at DPMS's website and now I have a million more questions. It's guns seem to be reasonably priced.

I can get a .300 RSAUM AR-10 type rifle with a 20" bull barrel for $1,250. The website says that it comes with the standard A-15 trigger group. What does that mean? It also says "Note: The JARD Trigger will not ft in the DPMS line of LR-308 rifles!" What does that mean?

I can also get a .223 AR-15 type rifle from them with a 24" super bull barrel (i.e., 1.15" diameter). Essentially, it is almost the same gun as above in .223 and it costs $1,199. I also have the option to add a JP trigger, harris bipod, cryo barrel, a 1x8 twist instead of 1x9, chrome bolt carrier, and vented free float tube on this gun. These options might be available on the .300 above, but the website didn't say they were.

Now, I think the MSRP prices are well above what I can get these guns for, so I might be able to get both guns for $2,000 or less and come close to finishing everything off with scopes for a total of $3,000. My wife would be ecstatic and I wouldn't have to worry about having a lower assembly sitting around until I got the upper.

What are your opinions on the DPMS Panther line of guns? Should I be concerned about the trigger issues with the AR-10? Essentially, these are the two guns I was aiming for in the beginning, but I got carried away with all the options and available uppers. At a later date, I could buy additional uppers for the AR-15 in .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, and .25 WSSM. DPMS even sells a .204 Ruger upper for the AR-15 and a .260 Rem upper for the AR-10.

This summer, I will have been "new gun purchaseless" for nearly three years and I am dying to get something new. I love the idea of working on these guns at a later date to modify them the way I want them (e.g., Hogue grip, laser sight, scopes, and additional uppers).

[Lycanthrope]

Easy Hoss. Just breathe........

The cheapest solution is to have a 4 rail gas block installed. You can then mount the laser under the barrel. Otherwise, you need a rigid, full float type of handguard to mount a sighting system or it's worthless. The handguards that are not rigid and floated are fine for lights, but that's it.

Daniel Defense is very good, but not your only option. You could get a FIRSH handguard by Oly or use a free float tube by JP and then add a picatinny rail bolt on.

V Tac by JP (http://www.jprifles.com/) (I've made most links hot, so click 'em!)

That will only set you back around $150.

Don't get hung up on the combat gear. JP is good enough for 3 gun and we bounce rifles off stuff all the time!

The JARD trigger is another drop in trigger type. The other options I listed will likely work, so don't sweat it. Most good trigger systems run $140-$200. A standard trigger group is just that....a standard single stage trigger than comes on all AR's. These guns are modular and many of the manufacturers use teh exact same parts from the exact same companies! Wilson (NOT Wilson combat) makes barrels for several main line brands...... You can get the standard trigger group down to 3.5lbs just by treaking the springs, but you may have some creep.

The DPMS guns are excellent choices, HOWEVER, for $1100 you can have a Gator upper with carbon fiber OR DPMS aluminum tube (that will accept adaptors I believe), a chromes bolt and carrier, a muzzle brake (should you wish), match barrel and JP adjustable gas block (you can adjust the gas pressure to match your loads). All that with a guranteed .5 MOA. No shelf rifle comes close to that for the price....period. You don't need a 1.15 barrel. I can watch the strikes in my 20" gun and it's .960 I believe (too lazy to mic it) 1:9 twist handles 70gr bullets. Unless you really want to shoot heavier out of .223, you don't always need 1:8 or 1:7. If you want 1:7, go White Oak. They make their living shooting 600 yards at Camp Perry. Don;t get hung up on barrel length. Longer barrels are no more accurate and with good bullets you can fragment much farther than ball ammo.

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~jefwolfe/faqchart.gif

Even if you choose to go DPMS, just get the upper and mate it to a RRA lower.

IT WON'T MAKE IT LESS EFFECTIVE AND WILL SAVE YOU MONEY.

Really.....I'm just trying to clear up some things I've learned over several thousand dollars and competition.

Now on to the AR10........that's not a bad price at all. :D

What else you want to know?

[fabsroman]

You guys have been great with the help, and I really like that V-Tac by JP and the JP gas block. Accessory problem solved.

Now, if I order the RRA lower with the standard trigger from eaglefirearms, I believe it is going to cost me $220. A Jewell trigger will be about $200. The Gator upper will run about $895. The V-Tac will cost me $150. Am I missing anything other than the scope and the laser? The total on that package is $1,475. Not terrible.

Again, if I go with the lower and upper purchase, I am seriously thinking about getting the Dedicated Technologies upper in .223 WSSM, .243 WSSM, or .25 WSSM. Probably would got with .223 WSSM, and that upper is $732, so the entire gun would cost me $1,312, but I would like to get the JP gas block for the upper.

Are these guys at all flexible with pricing. For instance, I do not need the hand guard on the Dedicated Technologies upper since I want to use the V-Tac. Would they give me a credit for it? Same goes for the gas block.

How hard is it to put everything together? I don't think I will have a problem putting the upper on the lower, but what about the V-Tac and the gas block. To give you a little back ground on me, none of my guns (shotguns or bolt rifles) have ever been to a smith. I have installed Timney triggers in my Ruger MKII77 and Remington 700 and also installed all the scopes on my rifles. Can I do all these mods myself without having to take the gun to a smith?

[Lycanthrope]

If you go Gator, you won't really need the V tac as you can opt to use a DPMS aluminum float tube versus the carbon fiber for no cost. Jim Clark is a custom smith and they are great to deal with. I'm sure you could ask for just about any option and you would get it. Ask about ordering a V Tac and having ti shipped to them. You can also save $60 on that Gator by becoming a USPSA member (they give a $100 discount to members). A year membership will cost you $40....so the net gain is another $60.

The JP block is a nice feature if you play with A LOT of loads AND you ever go with a lightened bolt carrier to make the most of absolute recoil control. Otherwise, in all honesty, you really aren't going to need it on your gun. Gas blocks aren't that hard to change, but it's not something you can switch from rifle to rifle easily. If you want it, call your smith and just ask if you can ship them one. I know very little about Dedicated Tech, but most everyone who deals in AR's understands how people like to trick them out.

Putting an AR together is easy. I built the thin barreled kit gun above from stripped receiver at the kitchen table with some punches in about 45 minutes on my first try.

Now....I am about to impart upon you overload.... I didn't do this easlier because it's Pandora's box and a lot of information is incorrect at this link. Anyhow....

www.ar15.com

Arfcom is highly skewed to the military opinion on guns and is not newbie friendly. In fact, it can be the roughest gun forum on the net if you ask a question that is the least bit controversial. They hate match triggers, they hate anything but Colts, they hate anything but Aimpoints and Eotechs, they have tens of thousands of paying members (yeah, I'm one).........most of which have never even used half of what they are spouting information about (I'm not one of those). So, please don't get caught in the "gospel" over there. (They have members who have post counts over 40,000........how much shooting do you think those people get?)

Arfcom does, however, have a all the guides and info to make any changes to your gun.

Click me for Guides (http://www.ar15.com/content/)

Otherwise do a forum search under "Ar15" and then "Build your Own" for anything else.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I think I finally have this figured out for the most part because I received an e-mail response from Dedicated Technologies. I am going to get the Rock River Arms lower, the V-Tac hand guard, and an upper from Dedicated Tech in .223 WSSM. He doesn't recommend using any other gas block other than the one provided because the WSSM round creates additional heat that the standard gas blocks cannot handle. He is willing to charge me the difference between the standard hand guard and the V-Tac.

Next set of questions.

What trigger should I get for my lowers? Should I send the lowers to JP and have them put their single stage trigger in the lowers, or should I just buy an aftermarket trigger and install it myself. If I should buy an aftermarket trigger and install it myself, what are your recommendation for an after market trigger.

To have an upper built for my lower, do I have to send my lower to Dedicated Technologies, or any other place that would build an upper for me?

[Ridge Runner]

All my AR's have RRA nat. match triggers in them, I like them ok, but most of the guru's swear by jewel, though I've never tried one.
Are you looking for a single or 2 stage trigger?
RR

[Lycanthrope]

You don't have to send your lower anywhere. The upper can be mailed to your house and you can pin it on in 45 seconds.

The lower parts in both rifles are pretty simple. Self installation of a trigger should be no problem (including the JP). Trigger selection is a matter of preference. I'm used to two stage triggers from shooting 1911 style pistols so I can make follow shots as fast as my single stage guns. Many traditional rifle shooters prefer the single stange. The advantage of the two stage is you can a have safer overall pull and stillhave the trigger break in terms of ounces.

I have a Jewell which is adjustable in terms of sear engagement as well as overtravel and first and second stage pull weights. The first stage pull can be adjusted down to 26oz on my rifle. You can go lower, but it gets sloppy in reset. Second stage can be adjusted to a few ounces more or a few pounds. I set mine at about a pound for a complete pull of around 2.5 lbs.

[fabsroman]

I don't know exactly what stage of trigger I want on the gun. I have a single stage Timney on my .300 Win Mag Ruger MKII77 and a two stage on my .220 Swift Ruger MKII77VT, and I like them both. My .270 Rem. 700 also has a single stage trigger. My 10/22 has a two stage trigger from Volquartsen.

I guess I would prefer a two stage trigger and will probably go with Jewell because according to the JP website, the JP trigger is only adjustable to 3.5 lb pull weight.

[fabsroman]

What a dillemma I have. I have been trying to figure out exactly what I want on these guns, and it seems like I want things offered exclusively by certain manufactures. Problem is that not one single manufacturer offers everything I want for the gun and other than Dedicated Technologies, they aren't very quick about returning e-mails.

Then, I showed my wife the new JP CTR-02, and she told me to go ahead and buy the gun if I want it. I love that gun, but the only problem is that it is only chambered in .223 Rem. I was hoping to get something in .223 WSSM or .243 WSSM.

The headache continues.

How did you guys go about getting your guns set up the way you wanted them? How long did it take?

[Lycanthrope]

Listen to yourself man! Pull yourself together! A dilemna over being able to afford a JP!!!! You could buy an AR10 AND a RRA varminter for the price of that gun......both would be inferior to it, but still.........

Stop thinking about the AR as a rifle. Don't search for the perfect "rifle". Search for a perfect platform.

Very few of us have just one. I always have at least three on hand in different configurations.

The JP is the CREAM when it comes to AR's. I am 99.9% sure they are chambered in 5.56 (it matters because you can't shoot 5.56 out of a .223 chambered gun, but you can shoot either out of a 5.56 chambered gun). They are amazing rifles for a first time AR. Absolute racehorses. Stick with the 5.56/.223 and learn the platform. Ammo is extremely cheap and you'll shoot thousands of rounds versus hundreds of a larger caliber. Not to mention that the larger calibers can be magazine finicky and are generally more expensive to feed. 5.56 pressures are nothing to sneeze at and your barrel is going to last a lot longer....and be cheaper to replace when you need to. All in all, do you want a higher risk of aggravation in trade for a larger ball for your first rifle? Exactly how often do you need that extra 600-700 fps of the WSSM? Is it worth losing capacity? Cost? Get to understanding the gun before you go wildcatting and ruining your taste for evil black rifles.

After you've shot 2000 rounds through that JP, THEN make a decision for another upper if you still want one to hunt large game with........I wager you'll just spend that extra grand on an ACOG.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I think I am going to pull the trigger, pun intended, on a JP CTR-02 and the DPMS .300 RSAUM. Like my wife said, all the hours I have spent debating all this crap was probably enough in billable hours to buy both guns, and I am plenty busy with work right now. In fact, the only time I have had to look over these guns is after midnight, and that has been almost every night for the past two weeks.

I am pretty sure that they are chambered in 5.56 too because they say 2.23/5.56 for their chambering and they have an article on their site about it, or maybe that was Olympic Arms' site. It is all starting to get a little blurry.

Now, what is an ACOG? If this is another gun, I might not even want to know about it. Heck, I might not even want to know about it if it is another mod.

[Lycanthrope]

Originally posted by fabsroman

Now, what is an ACOG? If this is another gun, I might not even want to know about it. Heck, I might not even want to know about it if it is another mod.

Oh my........you're in trouble.

Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight.

Link to ACOGs (http://www.trijicon.com/user/parts/parts_new.cfm?categoryID=3)

http://www.trijicon.com/parts/A2C1.jpg

http://www.trijicon.com/parts/130C.jpg

[fabsroman]

Okay, I saw that on JP's website. Exactly what does it do? Is the bottom picture the reticle in the scope? If so, what good does that do me on a long range rifle? I could see put one of them on a carbine length rifle, but not a rifle with a 24" barrel that weighs 10+ pounds and is built for 100+ yard work.

[Lycanthrope]

Your JP is a racehorse. You'll be able to watch multiple bullet strikes in the scope. Yeah, you can put a long range scope on her (I'd do that with the .300), but the JP will shine at rapid fire inside 400. It's built for IPSC 3 gun.

Many ACOGS allow BAC (Bindon Aiming Concept) which means the bright internal dot/chevron/reticle (your choice) can be used both eyes open at very short distances and will allow you to align running game quickly. They use tritium and the reticles can be used at night. Optical clarity is excellent and the TA31 I listed has a built in bullet drop compensator for the 5.56. The "5" listed is the 500 yard aiming point.

The Accupoint is the variable power alternative.

http://www.trijicon.com/home.cfm

[fabsroman]

I might be able to afford the Accupoint at a mere $600 to $700. The ACOG is completely insane. It starts in the $1,200 range. Might just get Accupoints for both rifles. This is going to have to wait until tax season is over.