7-08 efficiency

[hofts]

just reading thru the nosler manual, and it seems like when comparing 140 gr loads, the 7mm-08 uses a lot less pwder than say the 280, 270, including the shortmags, yet still produces very similar velocities, must be a very efficient round heh?

[gd357]

Well, generally speaking, the shorter, fat cases are a more efficient powder column, hence all the new short-fat magnums. They achieve similar velocities to their long-action counterparts with less powder. So a long answer short, yes.

gd

[Jack]

It's a fine cartridge, and it is efficient.
One caution, though: if you look at only one manual, you may get a slightly skewed picture. Differences in barrel length, powder lots, and test barrels can make a comparison vary quite a bit.
Looking at 3 different manuals will give you a much more objective comparison.

[Rocky Raab]

Efficiency versus effectiveness is one of the easiest ways to spark a campfire argument.

One side says, "I don't care how much powder it takes, I want the most power (or velocity) I can get."

The other side says, "But I get 90% of what your ash-can-sized cartridge gets with only two-thirds the powder - and recoil."

I'm firmly in the 90% for 2/3 camp myself.

One way to rate "efficiency" is a simple formula: foot-pounds of energy per grain of powder burned. That takes in both velocity and bullet weight, so it's a valid comparison. The most efficient cartridge in existence? The .22 CB cap. It gets something like 45 foot-pounds with NO powder! (It contains only a bit more priming compound than usual.)

[Rapier]

The other side of this is that everything that goes down the barrel produces recoil, including the powder.

So not only do you get near about the same stats, you do get less R. :)

The 308 based cartridges are all very fine rounds, from the 22/243 to the 358.

I just happen to think the .264 version is the best, but I am just a 6.5 nutt.
Ed

[Mike Moss]

Cartridges like the 7mm-08 are outstanding for most game hunting. However there are places where the range can be very long.

If you were on the last day of a big hunt and still had not got a shot and the guide spotted a trophy animal moving away at a lasered 400 yds would you rather have a 7mm-08 at that point or a 280 Rem? How about a 7mm RM or a 7mm STW?

[Rocky Raab]

Actually, Mike, I'd rather have a rifle that was pleasant enough in recoil and blast to shoot it often. I'd be shooting better with the 7-08 than I would with a flinch-inducing, ear-stabbing, flame-belching magnum. And I'd just hold two inches higher and collect that trophy.

(If I shot at all. Four hundred yards is too far to shoot at an unwounded big game animal - especially if rushed, offhand and prodded by a guide.)

[Mike Moss]

Hi Rocky,

If it were any other member making that post I would have a little fun with it. I know that you really know your stuff and that your a gentleman as well. It's a pleasure posting on this site. Sorry anyway for taking so long to answer.

I pretty much agree that 400 yds is kind of far and I pass up shots even shorter than that here as I have the freezer full and would rather make a sure shot.

But many of us are human and if it's the last day most are going to wing away. The 7mm-08 is a neat round but is that the biggest gun you have out there in Utah?

I looked at some data and if you shot my 7mm-08 with 140 BTs zero'd at 250 it would be about 18" low at 400 yds and in 20 mph of wind drift a couple of feet. I don't think I would shoot either.

On that last day I think I will bring my 264 WM shooting 120's at 3350. It will be only 11" low at 400 yds and drift a lot less or a foot and a half to be more exact. I would shoot with the 264. Thats what it's for.

MM

:)

[L. Cooper]

I wish I knew who said it first, but I don't hunt in order to kill animals; I kill animals in order to have hunted. (Anyone know the source?)

It's too bad that so many animals die lingering deaths due to the necessity of many hunters to have killed something.

Hunting is the goal of a hunt, and taking a badly presented shot hoping to make up for the fact that a good hit is unlikely by shooting some earsplittengoloudenboomer of a rifle results in much suffering by game animals.

We hunters need to learn to relax about the necessity of a trophy in order to make a hunt worth the money spent.

[Rocky Raab]

Well, that's where I differ. Please understand that I am not saying I'm a superior human being for taking this position. It's just that I have certain convictions and standards that I've formed for myself. Your mileage may vary.

The largest gun I own is a .308. I've been out and seen deer at long range. When that happens, I try to get closer or wait for another deer. If no deer shows up within my own personal maximum range then I don't shoot at a deer that year.

I've written about taking longer shots, and one of them happened to be on the last day of the season. But those were the occasions that taught me to do otherwise. I won't do it again.

[270man]

L. Cooper,

The source of your quote is the Spanish philosopher/hunter Jose Ortega y'Gasset (name spelling is approximate) from his book "Meditations on Hunting".

Regarding the subject of the posts: I'm with Rocky. My friends and I spend endless hours debating firearms, calibers and everything else related to hunting and shooting. Each of us paints scenarios that support our positions on some particular issue (like using a 7mm SuperBlaster rather than a 7mm-08) but when all is said and done, we agree that 300-yards is about the longest range at which most of us will take a shot and feel good about it. One of the reasons is that shot placement far outweighs caliber selection, within reason (another of my opinions).

I'm not alone in these opinions. For years, I have
collected quotes from writers and revisit them every once in a while. Here are a few:

"If I can't get within three football fields, it is not my rifle that needs the work." -- Kevin Wilmeth

Some discussion has arisen about the use of the 270 on elk. We have kicked this around at some length with John Gannaway, brother Jay Marks, and family member Steve Lunceford, and we conclude that if you cannot flatten your elk with a 270, you probably cannot flatten him with a 375 either. -- from Jeff Cooper website late 1990s.

"The truth is that any good modern rifle is good enough. The determining factor is the man behind the gun."
-- Theodore Roosevelt, 1910

Finn Aagaard's recent work on killing power appeared in Rifle magazine. His concluding attitude was "Better put 'em in right, Bwana." Fact: No cartridge will suffice for a humane kill if the bullet is improperly placed. Conversely, almost any cartridge with sufficient penetration will suffice if it is properly placed. The lethal zone for the larger cartridge may be somewhat larger than that for the small one, but the difference is not great. Essentially, if you shoot an elk, or a kudu, or a moose, or a big old whitetail squarely through the boiler room, he will run off a short distance and collapse - let us say, 35 paces for a 30-06, 25 paces for a 375, and 15 paces for a 600 Nitro. If, on the other hand, you place your bullet badly - with anything - you are in for a long and dispiriting follow-up. -- Jeff Cooper website, circa 1990s.

I concur with all the above,

270man

[BILLY D.]

i don't remember who said it or when, i think it was carmichael, "there are many 400>700 yard rifles and many "all purpose" rifles, but there are darned few people capable of 700 yd shots and too few all purpose hunters".

i have absolutely no respect for any "hunter" that whacks away at at a game animal that is in the next zip code.

i respect the gal or guy who can stalk and get within 50 yds or so.

most folks know my stand on hunters versus shooters.

rant mode off.........as you were.

[bigkevmorgan]

my brother has the plain jane rem in\the7-08 he has taken antilope and wild boars verry effectivley with it rather nice round
i tend to leen towards the 270... have a great one

[PJgunner]

While I agree with the old African hunters advice of, "Get ye as close as ye can laddie, then get ten yards closer." sometimes it just is not possible. The area where usually Iraw an elk tag has humongous open meadows, some several miles wide and as much as seven miles long. Once the shooting starts, the elk head out into these open meadows and getting close enough for a shot literally takes an act of God as they can see you coming from a mile (or more) away. If one gets a shot, it just might have to be a very long range shot. Not the choicest of conditions, believe me.
So, I practice for those conditions, just in case. I'm lucky enough to be able to shoot at a range where targets can be set out to 500 meters. I practice out to 100 meters sitting and offhand. From 200 meters to 500 meters from the sitting position. I don't much care for the kneeling position but do shoot a few targets with that one as well. I'm not about to shoot prone with either the .300 Win. mag. or .338 Win. mag. I use for elk.
The last time I drew a tag, the only shot I got was at 530 yards laser measured. I wasn't too happy with the situation, but it was the second day of Arizona's four day elk season (they're so damned generous with how many days you get to hunt. :mad: )
I was well practiced from my range time, had a good sitting position, no wind to speak of and the cow elk I had the tag for was standing still, as was the rest of the herd. I was behind a small bush, the last bit of cover. I took the shot and the cow elk dropped on the spot. The only thing that griped me about the whole deal was the herd bull had the biggest darn rack I've ever seen on any elk. In the binocs, I counted a nice 7x7 rack. naturally, I had that cow tag. The bullet hit about six inches below the spine and bout two inches back from the line of the shoulder. Serious practice does pay off.
Before any flames erupt. I would have much rather gotten closer. I prefer to see the whites of their eyes. If I draw a tag this year, I will certainly have to get close enough to see the whites of their eyes as a serious shoulder problem (artritis/bursitis???) has kept me from being able to shoot my magnums. Even the mild 7x57 is quite uncomfortable, but that's as light as I plan to go. Depending on what the doctor says, I may even not put in for an elk tag. :( We'll just have to see.
Please remember, the above does not mean I endorse taking long range shots. What I do suggest is, do the practice to enable you to make it should it become necessary.

"Get as close as ye can laddie, then get ten yards closer." That's darn good advice.
Paul B.