Here we go again with gas prices

[Skinny Shooter]

Last Spring and Summer the gas prices started going up or the spectre of increased prices was out there.
Our business and others like it experienced a slow time thru the end of Summer. Feedback from customers and networking with other business gave me the perspective of "When it costs $60 or more to fill your tank, you take money away from "wants" and give it to the "needs"".
Now with gas rising again, I shudder to see how our Summer is going to play out. That is supposed to be our busy time period.
A result of last years slow down is that we let our full-time employee go. We couldn't afford to have one.
When gas goes up, we all pay more beyond just the costs at the pump...
Hurricane season is just around the corner. A little off-topic, long range "predictions" indicate the mid-atlantic states as a target for this eyars hurricanes... We'll see.
It's time to stop selling off our domestic oil, open ANWR and any other domestic oil-production areas, plus expedite alternative energy production. Hopefully the high gas prices will cause people to regulate their driving which will result in a glut in the market driving prices back down. It's a convoluted issue with no easy fix.

[fabsroman]

Skinny,

You forget to mention that maybe with the increased gas prices, people will start buying more hybrids and flex fuel/ethanol vehicles. This will not only result in less of a dependence on foriegn oil, but it will also help the environment. I shudder to think what will happen if we actually go to war with Iran and the oil from the middle east is cut off. Talk about hurt, we will all be riding bicycles to work.

Essentially, people will have to make decisions based upon the gas prices. Living an hour plus drive away from work in the sticks will be a much tougher decision to make. I am willing to bet that SUV sales will be really down.

At the end of the day, opening our own oil reserves, drilling for new oil, etc. is only a temporary, short term fix. That is the problem with us. We are near sighted and don't think about the effects that our actions today will have 20 years down the road.

If every new car sold was a hybrid, flex fuel/ethanol, or 4 cylinder that gets 30+ mpg, don't you think the demand on oil will be drastically decreased. I read somewhere that if every American traded their car in on a vehicle that got 5 mpg better gas mileage, we would no longer be dependent on foreign oil. Do you think people are doing that? My brother just went from a 4 cylinder PT Cruiser to the Trailblzer SS and he is getting 12 mpg. His other vehicle is a 1990 Mustang that has been modified heavily. God only knows what that gets. His third vehicle is a 1976 Land Cruiser with a 327 in it. Oh, I am sure he is sending a ton of money over to the Middle East.

Yeah, when gas prices go up we all suffer, but we are also all responsible for the price increase. Lately, I haven't been driving much except for work, and I try to pass that cost on to my clients. My wife and I both drive cars that get 27 mpg and our next vehicle will be a hybrid or flex fuel vehicle.

[toxic111]

When hybrids become more affordable, and less of a maintence issue I will look into it more.. my finance and I both drive trucks (hell we under snow most of the year, so we just about need them) They both get around 25mpg Hwy. Gas here is $1.05litre, disel is $0.899litre (at the moment anyway)

We looked at the escape hybrid, 30mpg hwy, battries can be a problem, $5000 more, not much better than I have right now... Oh, and it has a tow rating of about 800lbs.

Then we looked at the Jeep Liberty diesel, 30mpg, $3000 more than standard, and can tow 2500lbs (of the top of my head, but well over the Escape)

I have a boat, and with that I can tow it with no problem, with the hybrid, it is close to being overweight.

[Skinny Shooter]

Yep, Hybrids are more expensive to buy and operate, for now.
Fabs I agree with you on the short-term, but we need it now and even needed it 10 years ago. Unfortunately we won't see those fruits for sometime so construction/development should start immediately. I combine my trips in one run whenever possible and if it gets too bad, I may limit (shudder) my hunting trips to the skinny fields this Summer because of it. Hey, rising gas prices are another form of groundhog game management... :D

[M.T. Pockets]

I grew up in the 70's and remember that there was a real effort then to conserve energy.

I mentioned this once and got my backside handed to me, but remember when the speed limits were reduced and enforced at 55......?

Somthing has to give and it's going to hurt.

[Skyline]

Well all of that is fine and dandy if you live in a city.........but a hybrid anything is of little use where I live. Much of the winter you wouldn't get out of my yard without a 4x4. The little economy size pickups won't haul goose neck horse trailers or hay, or cattle......they are OK for weekend hunters etc, but not much good for anything else.

I can only survive with a full size pick-up 4x4 with a decent towing capacity. Just the gravel roads where I live would beat your average car to death in a couple of years.

The cost of electricity in many places and the inflated initial cost of the hybrids will outweigh the fuel savings anyways. This has been documented by a number of agencies already.

[larryours]

Alot of price gouging going on, last week one service station changed their gas prices more times a day than people changes their underwear, but if this keeps up, people will change their underwear ever time they pull up to the gas pumps:mad: :mad:
Nobody can tell me the gas, in the underground tanks increase/decrease between tankers supplying gas fill ups. Yes gas company need to make profits, but this is outragious..:mad: They OPEC, will meet the supply and demand, as long as we demand, they will supply.But at what cost ?:mad: :mad: :mad:
There should be no foreign aid given to any of those coutries, the price they charge, they should be giving us aid....

I hate to even drive by a gas station anymore, I know I've cut my driving down at least 65 %, but then other people drive back and forth all day long, while everone else is at work,but most of these get their gas payed for, because they live off the state: welfare. But from what I gather this is going to change in near future, in this state,x number of months, if don't get a job, benifits cut off !

People, elderly, on fixed income, that need help can't get it, while younger people as healthy as a horse, are riding around enjoying living off the state. We need some work camps, if you draw money from the state, then you will work for the state, if you don't work, you don't eat. After they miss a few meals, they would be ready to work.

Enough said for a Friday evening !
Turkey season opens Monday morning, maybe a few hours in the woods will do away with state /world affairs:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :) :) :) :)

[fabsroman]

See, that is the problem with this nation. We don't think about the nation as a whole. We don't say, hey, I'll pay a little extra if it means we don't need to support the Middle East. People don't say, okay, that flex fuel vehicle is going to cost me a couple thousand more now, HOWEVER, I'll recoup some over the years and even if I don't recoup all of my additional money, I'll support American farmers. Again, everybody is thinking short term. Everybody is worried about today. That is why the average savings for Americans is NEGATIVE. That means that on average, Americans are spending more than they make. Eventually, we will all have to pay for this short term thinking.

Here is a savings calculator. http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-10845_7-6212348-1.html

I agree, that right now, it doesn't really make financial sense to buy a hybrid when gas is $3 a gallon. However, I would hate to buy a gasoline powered car and then find gas at $5 a gallon like it is in Europe and Canada because hybrids will make a lot of sense then. How much would it cost a person to trade in that gasoline vehicle on a hybrid. Kind of like working at a dealership right now and trying to sell a SUV.

My wife and I are hoping that our current vehicles will last another 10 years, but if they don't, we will buy a hybrid, and I am kicking myself for not buying a flex fuel Taurus when I bought my car back in 1998. Thing is, I didn't even know what that badge on those cars meant. See, as everybody was getting 3/1, 5/1 arms, and interest only loans a couple of years ago, I locked into a 30 year loan at 5 3/4%. Now, all those arms are being readjusted and those people are crying. They used these ARMS to buy a house they could barely afford. Now, with the interest rate increasing and their rate going up 2% per year at most, they really cannot afford their house. What will that lead to? Lots of foreclosures and the decrease of real estate prices. Instead, my wife and I bought a townhouse even though we wanted a single family house. That put us in the middle. These people with the ARMS and interest only loans figured that house prices would continue to go up and they would get huge amounts of equity from their homes. They are crying now in my area as homes are taking months to sell. This example is a good reason to buy a flex fuel vehicle. If they find more oil, great, use gas. If they don't and the price of gas continues to go up, use ethanol. I would hate to buy a big SUV and see gas at $5, or how about $6.

Yes, everybody is scared of buying a hybrid or a flex fuel vehicle because the technology is unknown, but eventually it will get better. I almost didn't buy a diesel truck because I have never worked on a diesel, but then figured if I could learn how to work on regular motors, I can learn how to work on diesels. Since I am not too old yet to learn new tricks, I figure I can learn how to work on a hybrid and/or flex fuel vehicle.

Last I checked, GMC was offering the Denali and a full size pickup with a flex fuel motor. So, for those of you crying about towing, look into it. People in agriculture won't even support farmers by buying a flex fuel vehicle.

Eventually, we will all have to pay for our folly. The only question is if fossil fuels will be depleted before the ozone layer is gone. Will the economy come to a screeching halt or will the Earth be scorched before that. What is really ironic is that the warmer the Earth gets, the more fuel we will use to cool our homes. We worry about saving waterfowl, big game, bluefin tuna, billfish, etc., but we are destroying the entire Earth with our pollution. Don't get me wrong, I am not a tree hugger and I eat plenty of animals, but look what has happened over the last 100 years and how things have changed. 100 years ago, how many cars were on the road? Probably none. In another 50 years, how many cars do you think will be on the road then?

We don't pollute while in the field because we want to preserve the wilderness for our kids and grandkids, but we don't think twice about cranking that motor up and polluting the air for our kids and grandkids. If somebody told me I could donate $3,000 to a charitable organization and the environment would definitely be cleaned up significantly, you can bet I would make that donation, even if it wasn't tax deductible.

[fabsroman]

Okay, I just checked GM's website www.livegreengoyellow.com, even though I am a Ford fan.

Currently, GM produces the following E85 vehicles:

2007
Avalanche
Silverado
Tahoe
Suburban
Sierra
Yukon

2006
Avalanche
Impala
Monte Carlo
Silverado
Suburban
Tahoe
Sierra
Yukon

The trucks/SUV's have a flexfuel 5.3 liter motor, and the motors put out more torque and horsepower with the use of E85 fuel because E85 has more energy in it. I didn't look up the exact power ratings of the motors, but I think there area a lot of vehicles listed above that could tow a boat and a lot of other things. I tried pulling our 20' boat with an Escape and will agree that was scary. However, we pull it all the time with my dad's 1995 5.0 liter F-150 with a worn motor and it pulls the boat just fine.

Here are a couple more things from GM's website:

There are 39 million acres of crop lands available to produce 16 billion gallons of E85 a year.

If you drive an E85 vehicle, and use E85 in it, you will put out 1.7 metric tons less of greenhouse gas a year.

Of course, the big problem is the availability of E85. I have a government depot right next to me, so that might also be an option for me. That is why I think Congress should require all gas stations to serve E85.

[PJgunner]

Well, I have two trips, possibly three that I absolutely connot get out of this year. I cringe at what that Ford Explorer is going to cost, especially on the trip to Houston Texas for the Christmas holidays. :eek:
I like the idea of a flex fuel vehicle, but the Explorer is not and neither is the Toyota pick up. In double checking the Toyota's handbook, any form of alcohol based fuel with more than 10 percent alcohol is a total no no. They don't even recommend fuel with MBTE in it and we're forced to use that stuff in the winter.
I guess I could drive 55 MPH on the trips (Seems like we'd never get there) and double nickels may be once again mandatory anyway. Almost all the way to either place the speed limits are 75 MPH. I'll most likely split the dofference and do 65.
I seriously wonder just what would it take to convert both vehicles to flex fuel? We have exactly one station in town selling E85 fuel. At first, it was $.40 a gallon less than regular gas, but as people started going there, they went up to where it's $.20 a gallon less than gasoline. Just more greed. For those that don't know, E85 is 85 percent alcohol and 15 percent gasoline.
If I remember my history lessons, during WW-2, the French distilled their own alcohol and converted their cars to run on that.
As long as the oil companies have the money they do, you will never see any relief from our representatives. We have the best government big business can buy. :mad:
Paul B.

[Skyline]

Fabs.............a lot of what you say is true except that all of these things aren't available in rural areas. Secondly, I can't (and most of the farmers I know can't) afford one of the new E85 trucks that can pull a big goose neck. I will not spend $60,000 to buy a new E85 truck to help anybody! And guess what buddy......I won't drive 100 miles to get the E85 fuel because that is the closest place I can get it. I can't even get it delivered yet because the fuel companies won't spend the $400,000 to put in the tank system to hold it due to low customer demand.

Most of you, who live near big centers think everything is so damned easy to get and it isn't. This is the same reason that liquid natural gas, propane, etc never caught on (besides the tank considerations) it was only avialable for vehicles in big centers and once you got out where I work and live you were SOL.

These things always sound good and urbania seems to think when they read about it in Time magazine that it is readily available. Not so.

Why is it that you guys who are making $300,000 always think these things are just a slam dunk for the rest of us. Since you appear to have an idea of how tough it is for farmers (and it is tougher up here in Canada because we don't get the type of government handouts that yours do.....and they are having troubles too) what makes you think everyone that is farming can go out and buy the latest toys, hoping that the fuel will be available and easy to get........when we are monkey wrenching tractors that are 30 years old to make ends meet.

If you want to buy me one of those E85 trucks I'll use it, but otherwise I am going to try and milk a few more years out of my existing vehicles, just as you are.

[toxic111]

The biggest question with flex fuel cars & trucks is where are you going to get the fuel? Here at least in my small city no one has it at the pump. I can get some ethanol blended fuels at the pump, but they are even more than regular gas. We are getting an ethanol plant built here locally, but I don't know if it is going to help or not.

To tell the truth the best way is probably bio-diesel. Easy to make, and cheap to produce. Most diesel engines will run with it without any major modifcations, and some with out any changes at all.

I complain about our gas prices all the time, and there is reason too... I have a refinery & upgrader in the city, and live in the heart of the Canadian oil fields. Come on, I have to pay international prices for the oil under my feet?? It does not make sense, maybe we should stop exporting our oil, and see what it does to the world economy, as well as our own.

Enough of that tangent, what my point is, until flex fuel is more available, or hybrid cars & trucks come down in cost, I will drive what I have too, and in my case it is a ranger, and a explorer sport, but that liberty diesel may be in the driveway yet this year.

[BILLY D.]

ONE QUESTION: WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE RUN OUT OF CORN AND/OR THE PRICE JUMPS TO $20 A BUSHEL AND JUST WHERE ARE WE GOING TO GROW ALL THE PRODUCTS TO PRODUCE FUELS?

I'M GLAD I'M OLD, I DON'T HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THIS $H8T MUCH LONGER.

ONE OTHER THING, LIKE SKYLINE SAYS, WHAT KIND OF MACHINERY WILL HAVE TO BE INVENTED SO A FARM TRACTOR CAN PULL IT SELF OFF A TOILET SEAT. CAN YOU DO THAT WITH BATTERIES?

TIME FOR MY PEPCID.

[fabsroman]

Skyline,

The US Congress passed a bill that will provide gas stations with a 30% tax credit for the cost of installing or converting pumps to E85, with a maximum credit amount of $30,000. That is what they think it will cost the stations to install them, but I guess they might be wrong about that. Here is a link to an article talking about it. http://www.senate.gov/~dayton/news/details.cfm?id=250500&&

I agree completely. If you don't need a new vehicle, don't just go out there and buy one because you might save a little money in gas. We will drive our cars until they are no longer able to be fixed and/or fixing them is not economical. Just because my wife and I make a lot of money by your standards, doesn't mean it is a lot of money for around here. Kind of like the first time I went to New York City and had to pay $10 for a slice of pizza. I am sure that you would think a little differently if you lived around here, and we don't make $300K. I wish we did because it would be nice to have another $100K sitting around. The smallest new single family homes here cost $600K and they come with .2 acres. Just in case you could not see the period in that last sentence, that is 2/10ths of an acre or two tenths of an acre. You can essentially see your neighbor on the comode if you look out your window and you can move the grass with a weed wacker. Basically, they are larger townhouses with just enough room to let your dog go outside to do his business. To try and afford a house, my wife and I will not be buying new cars and we drive average everyday cars (i.e., high end Sonata and low end Taurus). The Sonata has 85,000 miles on it and the Taurus has 145,000 miles on it, and they both need their oil changed. However, I have to worry about offending the neighbors and/or the HOA if I change the oil behind my garage. So, lets not make it seem like my life is all roses and I can just go out and buy whatever I want. If I could, I would be living in a 7,500 sf house with 3 acres, I would have a 500 acre farm less than an hour drive away, I would have a house in Ocean City on the bayside with a dock for a boat, I would also have another boat to fish in the Chesapeake Bay, I would be driving a Lincoln LS or Zephyr and my wife would have a Lincoln Navigator. Don't get me started on the guns I would buy, because that list would be really long. With all that said, I saw a sign the other day that said, "Stress less by wanting less." I might just try that out.

Now, if you do need a new vehicle, why not buy an E85 vehicle. Is cost an issue? Probably not. Regarding the cost for the flex fuel vehicle ("FFV") motor, I just went to the Ford website and built a F-150 Supercrew. There is absolutely no extra charge for the FFV motor. Mind you, if you buy the FFV motor, you can still run the vehicle on straight gasoline if E85 is not available around you. However, if E85 becomes available, then you have the choice of using it.

So, if you are in the market for a new vehicle, why wouldn't you buy an E85 vehicle if it doesn't cost anything extra?

As far as the cost of E85 is concerned, it has to be a little less than gasoline because the mpg for gas is greater than E85 even though E85 gives you more torque and horsepower.

You would think that competition would increase on the E85 fuel once there is more demand, thereby enticing additional manufacturers to enter the market. Right now, the limited amount of dealers in the area have a monopoly on the stuff. Lucky for me, the station around me is a government run station, so they probably would not charge me a huge markup. In Maryland, we have all of 4 E85 stations. I am hoping that the number increases with the $30,000 tax credit mentioned above. Ultimately, I am hoping that my wife gets a job across the street as a pharmacist, that I continue to work from home, and that the current vehicles we have area all that we will need for the next 20 years, but something tells me that ain't going to be so. The last vehicle I drove as a everyday driver was a 1980 Ford Fairmont and when it blew a ring I finally let it go at 18 years of age and with 235,000 miles on it. I am hoping to do better with my Taurus and to have my truck my entire life, but if I have to get another vehicle, it will either be a hybrid or an E85. Right now, I would lean toward E85.

[toxic111]

It will be awhile before I have to worry about buying a E85 car or truck.. there is one station in all of Canada, and it is somewhere in Ontario.

Bio deisel is the best option for me.

Oh, and I doubt the Canadian government will be offering any tax incentives to installing E85 tanks.. they are too cheap as it is..

Hopefully things will change, but for some reason i doubt I will see it in my life time..

[Skyline]

toxic 111..................exactly right. We have the bio-diesel plants being started here in manitoba. We might see it available to us in the next couple of years, once everything is geared up to handle it.

As for vehicle Fabs............I never buy new.........never!! I like to let others take the hit if they want to in the first year or two of ownership. I can get the same vehicle when it is two years old with low miles for about half the price.

Owning a brand 'New' vehicle just doesn't give me a rush. Finding something that will do what I need it to do and low payments or a cash deal.....that gives me a rush.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

I have a feeling fabs owns stock in flex fuel vehicles. We all know just as we find a better way and all convert to an alternative sorce, the demand goes up and so does the cost. Look at natural gas for an example. My house still has the pipes installed to run 3 gas fireplaces along with the gas lights. This was the alternative to coal and oil way back in the early years of the 1900's.... don' t ask my what my heating bills were this winter with the cheaper natural gas...and every gas fireplace is sealed shut... look at bottled water. Who in the world would ever think of paying a buck for a bottle of water? But we do. Sure a small vehicle even a motorcycle would be nice mpg transportation but try to haul my toolbox on the back of one..Some people just need the bigger vehicles in their everyday life. No slam to you fabs but some need to haul more than a briefcase of papers. It goes like this.....
FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
FEB 06 THE COST OF 1 GALLON OF GASOLINE

20% IS TAXES.....FED, STATE, LOCAL ETC ETC..
11% IS DISTRIBUTION AND MARKETING
10% IS REFINING
59% IS THE COST OF THE CRUDE

What I see needed for right now is a little tax relief from our government.......Look in England and the $6.00 a gallon there...why?..because 78% of the cost is TAXES.....Heck, way back in the early 70's I had to pay $2.50 for a gallon in Germany..and I shuddered since I was pumping it at our gastations for $.25 a few months before.
Look at the cost of a pack of smokes...is taxes...we need a good lawyer to work on the tax problem here in this Country..
ah heck with it...I'm going fishing....can only use my electric trolling motor though......glad I have my spring gobbler hanging out close to home for next week...

No matter where we go....they will just increase the cost in the long run....government greed and I think Pres Bush best get his butt in gear and take a look at how things are here...worry about this place for a change.

[fabsroman]

Skeeter,

If you read all my posts in this thread, you would see that GM makes several flex fuel trucks/SUV's that can haul around your toolbox and Ford makes a flex fuel F-150.

Yeah, E85 might eventually become as expensive as gasoline, but it will still provide our nation with oil independance from the Middle East. If you have to pay $4 a gallon for gasoline, why not pay $3.75 for E85 and help out the country, especially since the E85 motor doesn't cost anything extra and allows you to run the motor on straight gasoline if you want to.

No, I do not have stock in flex fuel vehicles, but metaphorically speaking you could say I have a stock in this nation and the environment.

If you want to heat your house for cheap, but a wood stove and a chain saw and find somebody that will let you cut wood out of their woods. I drove my F-350 on one trip this fall, took my brother's 12' trailer on it, and met my dad at the farm with his F-150. In a single afternoon, with my brother's help and a friend's help, we loaded up both trucks and the trailer and both my dad and my brother had enough wood for the entire year.

Regarding the conversion from gasoline to E85, I do not think it is impossible. The government outlawed the use of leaded gasoline many years ago. Auto makers could not make vehicles that used leaded gasoline. Gas stations continued to carry the stuff until the demand entirely went away, and they installed the unleaded pumps. They even ended up installing three different grades of gasoline. So, why is it so hard to install an E85 pump? If possible, they could do away with the medium grade gasoline now offered and offer E85 out of it, but I do not know if this is feasible (i.e., can E85 be pumped through the same system as gasoline).

[Skinny Shooter]

to get this thread back on track, this article states what I was trying to articulate earlier: http://www.readingeagle.com/re/lead/1515605.asp

Over a barrel
High prices for oil spill over into everyday life because many household goods have petroleum as a prime component.


If gas prices are giving you a headache, this could give you a migraine: Gasoline is only one of many items you buy that is petroleum-based and dependent on the price of a barrel of oil.
Even the trusty aspirin has ties to the oil industry.

So do the shaving cream, toothpaste, deodorant and mouthwash you use daily.

Even the disposable diapers covering a baby's backside are made, in part, from oil.

That means that as the price of a barrel of oil goes up, the cost of manufacturing these products goes up.

Many Americans don't realize that a barrel of oil is used for more than just gasoline, said Karen Matusic, spokeswoman for the American Petroleum Institute in Washington.

For instance, petroleum is a key ingredient in plastics manufacturing, she said.

“I think a lot of this gets taken for granted,” she said.

The price of oil can hit you at the gas pumps and on the road.

The cost of a ton of oil-based asphalt has gone up $93 in the past year, said Roger J. Schmidt, president of EJB Paving & Materials Company, Route 61, Ontelaunee Township.

That means some municipalities are taking a longer look at what roads they may pave this year, Schmidt said.

Last April, EJB purchased liquid petroleum at $215 a ton, but now is purchasing the same product for $308 a ton, Schmidt said.

“It is increasing so fast we can't keep up,” he said.

Edward Leh, a Centre Township supervisor, said the cost of asphalt means the township may pave fewer miles of roads this year.

“It's putting us into a bind,” he said.

Other local companies are also feeling the pinch of $70 for a barrel of oil.

Crude futures recovered from four days of losses, lifted by supply worries after the International Atomic Energy Agency said Iran defied the United Nations Security Council by enriching uranium. A barrel of light crude rose 91 cents to settle at $71.88 on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Richard Partlow, general manager of specialty products for Brentwood Industries Inc., Reading, said the cost of raw plastic purchased by his company has increased 25 percent in the past year.

The company takes raw plastic and uses molds to turn it into a variety of consumer products such as wheelbarrows and parts for trucks, Partlow said.

The company is hit doubly by high oil prices because it relies on petroleum heat to run the equipment, Partlow said.

“It is a significant hardship for us and our customers,” he said.

All of those increases in manufacturing mean the cost of the finished product goes up, Partlow said.

“Ultimately, it ends up at the consumer's doorstep,” he said.

[fabsroman]

Okay, that one doesn't have a fix like the gasoline demand with alternative fuel, hybrid, and electric vehicles; however, if the demand for gasoline went down, don't you think the supply of oil might be a little higher, thereby resulting in a lower price. Is gasoline the main thing extracted from oil and the main reason for the hike in oil prices? Are the rest of these "by-product" prices just going up because the price of oil is going up from the gasoline demand, or would the demand for oil still be the same to produce all these by-product items if we no longer needed gasoline from oil?

[L. Cooper]

I believe it was in the mid 70's that the total energy cost to produce crops in North America became more than the energy contained in those crops.

Ethanol is a good use for otherwise wasted crops but it will never be a true alternative source of energy for vehicles. It can suplement, but never replace.

I don't think growing food to fuel vehicles will ever be a sustainable solution to anything.

[larryours]

Tell them to bring down the price barrel of oil, or up the price of a bushel of wheat to match the oil, after they miss a few meals, they might get the point . They might have us over a barrel but they wouldn't be in the kitchen :D :D :D :D :mad:

[fabsroman]

Okay, if I'm not mistaken, ethanol can be made with any biological waste products from crops (e.g., cornstalks, wheat stalks, soy bean left overs). Seems as though we would have plenty of that stuff, but I'm not a farmer so I don't know what that leftover/byproduct stuff is used for. Anybody out there know?

[M.T. Pockets]

Farming is something that I do know about. I grew up on a farm in the 70's & 80's and still work with agriculture on a close basis. I have a cornfield in my back yard.

As for producing alcohol, the ethanol plants use #2 yellow corn. The same corn you'd grind & feed to livestock. I'm not sure of the exact price of corn at the local elevator today, but it's within a few cents of $1.80 per bushel. To put this in perspective, corn was over $3.00 for most of the 1980's. So, even without adjusting for inflation, the cost of the raw product to produce ethanol has never been lower. In the 1970's grain prices were almost twice what they are today, so ethanol production was not feasible, plus during the cold war the U.S. liked to have a large supply of grain on hand and didn't want it used for anything but food. Archer Daniels Midland has one of the largest ethanol plants in the U.S. 12 miles south of my house and they're making money hand over fist.

The largest ethanol plant contractor in the U.S. has is HQ 15 miles on to the other side of my house, he's got 35 plants in the works and on the drawing board for the next two years. So, things are gearing up for more alcohol production. I'm not sure if it will put a dent in the whole fuel supply, but there is an effort being made.

Technology has impacted farming as much as any other industry over the past decades. Now in my area an average corn crop would be 170 bu. per acre, a good crop over 220. 25 years ago you could have cut that in half. I'm confident that if it were feasible, production could increase even more.

As for the stalks and husks, they're either harvested for livestock feed/bedding or plowed under to add humus back to the soil.

High fuel costs hit farmers hard, since the economists classify them as "Price Taker's" they have no control over the price of their product, they can't pass on their fuel costs like other industries do with fuel charges. Fertilizers are also petroleum based and that increases production costs as well.

I'm convinced that American farmers could provide a reliable, relatively cheap supply of corn and soybeans. Supplies can be stored for years and an American farmer isn't going to hi-jack a plane and fly it into a building.

I think the biggest problem is with the whole marketing of ethanol. Archer Daniels Midland is about the only game in town. Anybody know who their CEO is ?? A former oil company executive. They could have a bigger monopoly over ethanol than the oil companies have with petroleum.

[fabsroman]

I wish I knew something about ethanol production, because it seems like it might be a lucrative field. Of course, it would probably cost millions of dollars to get into, but I would start out refining the stuff myself and opening a couple of fuel stations around here. Of course, I would also offer gasoline in those fuel stations, but there would be big banners advertizing flex fuel/E85.

I don't like the idea that big oil is getting involved in the ethanol production because it seems as though they will do the same thing they are doing with gasoline. With the profits they have made the first quarter of 2006, I seriously think there is some price fixing going on and it pisses me off. I am all for capitalism, but not the least bit interested in monopolies unless they are state run (e.g., natural gas and electric), and I think natural gas now has some competition in my area based upon the supplier I can choose.

[M.T. Pockets]

E-85 is available in most everytown in the upper midwest, but not at every station The biggest problem with marketing it is the lack of pump availability. Most stations already carry different grades of gas, some diesel, some ethanol and some biodiesel, and they don't have room to stock E-85 until there is more demand for it.

I respect Brazil for their independence of foreign oil. They managed to do it with sugar cane produced ethanol.

Fabs, if you want to invest in the ethanol industry let me know. They're popping up all over around here and the individual plants are set up as LLP's and they're always looking for investors. However, not all of them are well managed or successful and they can fall on hard times financially, then ADM eats them up like a dog eating meat that fell on the floor.

When this industry matures, ADM will be the 800 lb. gorilla. Buy stock in ADM and hang on, they're up about 100% in the last 3 years the way it is. Biodiesel is not as far along and even farmers disagree on this topic, they like to sell it, but they don't like to use it in their equipment yet...But, I think it does have a future.

[fabsroman]

MT,

If I had bought ADM yesterday and sold it today, I would have made over 10%. Not a bad profit for a single day. Alas, I didn't buy it, so now I am sitting here wondering if I should buy it. Might ponder it over the weekend and buy it on Monday or Tuesday.