Quality Myth

[razmuz]

The word quality is thrown around a lot when discussing rifles. Folks say Douglas, Kimber, Sako and other high dollar rifles have quality. What do you mean by quality? I'll tell you what they mean; they mean "PRETTY." A Rem or Sav out of the box will shoot better or as good as any of the pretty rifles. These over the counter rifles have been used for years and passed down from father to son. They don't break and they shoot straight. If you want a pretty rifle more power to you. However, they offer no advantage in the field. Pretty rifles are good for turning over in your hands and playing one upmanship with. If your a hunter you don't need a pretty rifle, Pretty rifles are for those that do their hunting through Gun Magazines.

[Classicvette63]

Have to agree with you Raz. Sort of like a bamboo fly rod. It's only used for fishing for compliments.:D

Nothing wrong with the quality of Remchester Arms. How many other products are still in use after 100 years? Maybe your house, but I guarantee a lot more upkeep was required.

[BILLY D.]

darn. i hate it when people make sense. i couldn't agree with you more, my friend.

i also totally agree about the snob effect. you don't need a kreighoff double to harvest elephant. w.d.m. bell did it with a lousy mauser. and osa johnson protected her hubby the same way.

and you don't need a $3000.00 us optics scope when a middle of the line burris, nikon, or loopy will accomplish the same thing. lyudmila pavlichenko killed 309 germans with a lousy 3 power russian scope during ww2.

one upmanship is the key word here. i guess thats why some folks drive bmws and lamborghinis.

i know it sure ruffles a lot of people at the trap club when i shoot as well as they do with my grandfathers ol' model 12 and they are looking at their perazzi's and berretas with contempt when the match is over.

oh, by the way, grossvater payed $39.95 for that shotgun if i remember correctly.

good shootin', bill

[popplecop]

All right who allowed common sense to prevail on firearms?

[Brithunter]

:p Ha Ha Ha,

Oh boy I needed a good laugh :D

Yep Remington at one time certainly produced fine rifles, like I said at one time ;) now it's cut corners here cut costs there and well someone WILL buy it just because it says Remington on the side :rolleyes: Pity but that's the way of things today. No doubt even with the cost and corner cutting some of the production will shoot OK others however will be mediocre to say the least. An American friend of mine brought two new Remingtons back in 2002. Neither shot acceptably and after sending them back and being told that they were within tolerance :rolleyes: he finally sold them off informing Remington that they were last rifles of theirs that he would ever buy! One of them a Model 7 the stock on it looked like the sea and surf it was that darned wavey, about 3" groups was the best he could coax out of it. Now his old Ruger 77 in 6.5x55 shoots just over 1" groups at 200 yards with his handloads.

Of course now that Berretta owns Sako and Tikka well it's only a matter of time before their quality slips down the drain too :( more than likely especially if the accountants are in the driving seat .

Oh and whilst fine figured wood is not required to make a rifle shoot well it does instill a sense of pride or ownership in most people. However there will always be those who abuse any tool:rolleyes: saw what was once a fine Mannlicher sporting rifle brought into a gunshop for checking over as it was not longer accurate. Well there were rusting scratches all over the bluing and the wood looked like something had been knawing on it and it was a very finely figured piece of walnut too :eek: . Turns out the accuracy problem was from lack of cleaning and the scope and mounts were loose :rolleyes: the owner just threw it into the back of his Landrover pickup with no cover, straight onto the ribbed metal bed :rolleyes: and that's where it stayed until he needed to shoot a fox or deer:mad:

Now I like a nice looking and properly seasoned bit of walnut for a rifle stock however not all rifles come with this sort of wood. Some although properly seasoned is quite plain. Now regardless of the quality of the wood or price of the rifle it goes stalking (hunting) as that is what it was built for ;) In fact I have just re-zeroed a bespoke (custom) made rifle had the scope off to check the mounts tightness, zeroed another a P-H 1200V in 6mm Rem which I got last year but this is the first time I could get it with ammunition onto a range :rolleyes: and tested some handloads in a 3rd rifle, another P-H 1200 super in 7.92mm (8x57) which has had the stock bedded with a fore end pressure point.

One of these will be going stalking Roe Buck next month. Hopefully I can make one more trip to the range before I go stalking but range access here is not good :( the last range trip before this was last October :eek: but now I have made contact with a new range and club and hopefully I get to shoot at least once a month now.


Errr,

I think the fishing rod you are talking about is a "Split Cane" rod. Though not cheap they work very well I understand and I do believe my friend the gamekeeper ( who I will be stalking with next month) uses a Hardy one for his fly fishing. Heck he has a whole collection of old cane /bamboo rods at one time that's all they used before fireglass came along :rolleyes: Heck I even have my fathers old "Burnt Bamboo" rod around here somewhere, it's what I learned to fish with as a boy ! Some of the rods he (the gamekeeper) has belonged to his father and uncles, others he has acquired through the years. Please bear in mind that Gamekeepers were not paid all that much nor are they still. However it's his life and he is happy doing it

You like Remingtons................. well more power to you :) I would not give a model 700 house room, heck they don't even feel right to me, now the Winchester Model 70 felt much better when I shot a friends old 30-06 and later another friends Mod 70 Feather weight in .308 :) Johns VSS Mod 700 is to my mind uncomfortable.

[Gil Martin]

Quality sure seems to have taken a beating with a lot of modern firearms even with much higher prices. That is exactly why I shop the used gun racks. Years ago, firearms displayed better examples of craftsmanship, decent wood and guns that were built to last.

I hunt and shoot my guns and take very good care of them. I believe is is possible to have working guns that still look great. Folks cannot believe that my Krag sporter is over 100 years old and looks like new. All the best...
Gil

[Brithunter]

Hi Gil,

You are a man after my own heart:D I have only a few rifles which were brought new with the latest one being made in 1997 which is a Mauser M96 Slidebolt, most of them are of a certain vintage, but some of them are of Antique status and the Mannlicher Mdl 1892 which was built into a Best Sporting rifle by John Rigby of London looks only a few years old and not over 100 years old. certain Husqvarna Mod 46 built in 1935 is in excellent condition.

It's a sorry thing to say but the precision with which these older rifles were fitted together with is today sadly lacking despite the use of CNC machinery and computer probe inspection :rolleyes: Plain old hand skills are very hard to beat. As I type this I gaze upon a BSA Majestic Featherweight built in 1959 which is sooooo smooth to operate. :D Certainly not a throw away society back then. But then again they cost more originally. A normal working man could not have afforded most of the guns I have, money was simply too tight and hard to earn, rose tinted specs may be OK for some things but would we really want to go back to the wages of thsoe times?

[BILLY D.]

brit and gil

wouldn't it be pure pleasure to own one of those old rigbys with the flipup peeps and see john rigbys classic engraving trademark on the bridge? WOW. thats like dying and going to heaven.

[L. Cooper]

The same logic applies to the NEW AND WONDERFUL cartridges too. There is no rational reason for some of the new developments in cartridges except for marketing and bragging rights for owners.

Everyone knows that there is nothing that can be done with any round developed since about 1960 that couldn't be done with a round that was born before that date.

Make it clear here, I'm talking about hunting, not military uses.

Was moose hunting once when another party of hunters stopped in our camp. One guy looked at the .30-06 of one of our party, and then with a sort of sneer, took out a 7mm Rem Mag round and showed my friend how much bigger his was. We had no idea how to respond. That guy's need for therapy was obvious.

How much of the marketing of hunting products, especially gun related stuff, is aimed directly at such people who obviously have a sense that they are not "big enough"? ;)

[Cobra]

Trying to recall if there is any present product, or any type, that is as good as it was 20 or more years ago. The corporate world is into quick profits, they have no problem selling out a good, established name. Cutting corners during production, using lower quality materials and adding assorted bells and whistles in the short term will make major profits. A couple years down the road when the loyal buyers are fed up with the quality drop they buy elsewhere. Quite often the company goes bye, bye shortly thereafter or even worse turns to even cheaper products. Unfortunatly it's the world we live in now.

[fabsroman]

I judge quality by functionality and looks. Kind of like women. A woman can look great and be completely dysfunctional, or she can be completely level headed but very hard on the eyes. Me, I like my guns to look good, but to also function very well. At the end of the day, my hunting guns are just that, hunting guns and they are plain janes that I do not mind getting nicks and dings in, but they must operate flawlessly. Now, my sporting guns, like my clays guns and my paper target guns, must function flawlessly and also look good. Do I think Remington is as good as it used to be, sure. However, I think you need to buy one of the upper level guns to get good quality. About the only Remington gun I have my eye on right now is the Sendero II in .264 Win.

Another issue that was brought up, is the manufacturers invention of new products. This kind of goes towards the quality issue too. 100 years ago, I would be willing to bet that there weren't too many different models of guns within a particular manufacturer's product line. Now, manufacturers offer a million different guns with different actions, chambers, barrel lengths, etc. This is kind of like why light bulb manufacturers will never produce a light bulb that lasts forever, even if they have the technology. Once they produce that light bulb, they will essentially put themselves out of business except for the occassional light bulb breakage. Gun manufacturers need to introduce new "better" models and new "better" cartridges to continue to make money. My uncle has hunted with the same Browning A-5 for the past 40 years. How much do you think the gun industry has made off of him. Meanwhile, I usually buy a new gun every year, but I am starting to run out of guns that I want and I refuse to buy these new short magnum cartridges in a bolt gun just because they will shave a little weight off of my .270, .30-06, or .300 Win Mag's current weight and allow me a slightly shorter bolt throw. Once I get to the point where I think most of my gun needs are met, the gun industry will need to create another need to get me to spend more money. I'm not a fan of this, but I know some attorneys that create additional work within litigation cases just to create billable hours. Kind of what the gun industry and auto industry are doing to create additional sales.

Quality is different to every person. To some people, a gun that can kill a deer at 200 yards is just fine, so they are okay with paying the entry level price for a rifle that has sub par accuracy and looks. For others, quality is a rifle that can hit a prarie dog at 800 yards, so they are willing to spend more for accuracy than the person mentioned above. Finally, to some quality is in the beauty of the gun. I have been looking at a Beretta SO6EELL, and I think it is a beautiful gun. To me, the quality is in the art work on that gun and if I can ever afford it, you can bet that I will not fire it. I'll continue to use my Beretta 682's and 391's for targets and my SBE for hunting.

If you buy a $5,000 economy grocery getter car, would you expect it to run as far as another $20,000 grocery getter. If you buy a $50,000 performance car, would you expect it to keep up with a $1,000,000 performance car? Kind of using extremes to show my point. Usually, the more you pay the more you get.

Yes, some items go to the snob effect. For instance, the guy shooting a $20,000 gun that cannot hit the broad side of a barn, or the person paying $100,000 for a performance car that they will never drive hard. I sat in a $80,000 Mercedes once, and wondered what was so much more special with this car compared to my Taurus. Yeah, it had more leather and wood in it, but was it really worth $62,000 more? Not to me, but to some it is. They can keep it. Meanwhile, other people think I have lost my mind when I pay $3,000 for a shotgun.


Billy,

I am somewhat surprised by your comment about the BMW and Lamborghini since you are a race car fan. The price level and performance levels of those cars is much higher than say, my Taurus, but that doesn't mean that my Taurus or the BMW or Lamborghini are not quality vehicles. My Taurus gets its job done (i.e., point A to B) as does the Lamborghini (i.e., 0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds).

[BILLY D.]

fabs

last i checked the lamborghini would do the national speed limit at 55mph in 1976 in two seconds and never leave second gear. that was in '76. and the countach was $250,000. can't recall what the gas mileags was, but it wasn't bad.

have you ever heard a lamborghini or a ferrari wind through the gears up to speed. makes the hair on my arms stand up. same with honda and kaw mortorcycles. what a beautiful sound. when i was in germany i used to go to all the gp races i could. we always went to the ones in germany, the netherlands, belgium, and france. those were all within 200 miles of where we lived. even made it to monza once. fact is i was at the nurburgring the day nikki lauda wrecked. he was lucky to live through that one. he was horribly burned. although he wasn't my favorite drive in f-1 i still felt bad for him.

i had two favorite drivers, ronnie peterson, john player special ford cosworth and patrick depailler, elf tyrrel, another ford cosworth. depailler's car was a bit different. it had a tandem 4wheel set up, four on the front assembly and two on the rear. the cars were fast as all get out but the problem came during tire changes. their pit times were much slower than everybody elses.

jody scheckter was a team-mate of depailler at the time. if the name scheckter rings a bell it's because his brother is driving in the irl.

one little salient point. the racing versions of those don't use gasoline. f-1 and the other euro races went to methanol before nascar did. i think, but don't quote me on that.

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

Well I must say that I was darned lucky when I brought my Rigby. The dealer had not noticed the Rigby name on the barrel :D and didn't know what he had. You see people do not associate Rigbys' with the Mannlicher rifle. although it was quite a few years ago now, at least 6 years, that I got it the price I gave was £225 ($405US)

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/246725/14051593.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/246725/14051836.jpg
You can see it does not have a bolt tail peep, the customer a Mr C.W. Dent of London didn't order it with one only the stand and two leaves which are of course 100 for the stand and 200 & 300 for the folding leaves of the express rear sight.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/246725/14055494.jpg
Here she is laying in the sun.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/246725/14051915.jpg
The express sight set up ( Hmm I need to take a better picture of them some day)

Now Mauser at Obendorf offered a large selection of Sporting rifles. Although listed as three main models there was then the choice of not only chamberings but barrel styles like Half octagonal and full octagonal, different types of sights, and then we get to stock styles. BSA of Birmingham also offered a number of models although until 1953 they were all based upon Military actions such as the Lee enfield or Lee Metford Carbine, P-14/17 (BSA produced a run of just over 14,000 rifles based on the P-14/17's in three chamberings which were .303,.270, .30 Springfield in five models during the period 1949-1953) BSA of cousre also made up some sporting rifles on Mauser actions and the Martini. In 1923 they produced a model 1923 Hi-Velocity which chambered three propietry high velocity cartridges however it was a bad time to launch suck a rifle and they failed only making a few of each. These rifle built on new P-14 recievers were large and quite heavy. I have only seen one and not being sure exactly what it was went away to do some reaseach which took a few weeks, when I returned I found that the shop had closed :confused: It was one of only seven made in that chambering .330 Hi-Vel.

Here in the UK the market was of course different and it started to really fail after WW2 and the break up of the Empire, Britian alone is not a large enough market to sustain large firearms makers and for some reason their marketing in the US was done is a slapshod manner :rolleyes: .

[BILLY D.]

brit

i am insanely jealous and i covet thy rifle.

[Brithunter]

Hi Billy,

Why thankyou :) You might like these as well:-

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/9877134.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/9877161.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/319133/3107647.jpg
A Boer "Special Sporting rifle or Plezier made by DWM about 1896 with octagonal barrel and windage adjustable fore sight. 7x57 Mauser of course.

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/322277/9107282.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/782793/10165935.jpg

http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL14/134492/782793/10165819.jpg
A .303 sporting rifle built by BSA on a Metford carbine action retailed by Wm Powell & Sons of Birmingham.

I hope that you had a towel handy and that you like them. They are not everyones "cup of tea".

[BILLY D.]

OK BRIT

NOW YOU OWE ME FOR A NEW KEYBOARD. I DROOLED AND SLOBBERED ALL OVER MINE.

IT WAS ALWAYS MY DREAM TO OWN A RIGBY. AS A CHILD I CONTRACTED POLIO AND WAS HARNESSED BY BRACES. COULDN'T GET AROUND TO WELL AND CONSEQUENTLY DID A LOT OF READING. THE MOST FAVORITE OF THINGS I LIKED TO READ WERE STORIES ABOUT AFRICAN HUNTING. MY HEROES IN THOSE DAYS WERE WALTER DALRYMPLE MAITLAND BELL AND OSA AND MARTIN JOHNSON. I DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A LOT OF WORDS AT THAT TIME, I WAS ONLY SEVEN, BUT I COULD SIT DOWN AND WITH A DICTIONARY WORK MY WAY THROUGH A STORY. OH, YA, MY BIG BROTHER HELPED ME A LOT TOO. :) I READ SO MANY BOOKS MY MOTHER AND FATHER JOINED THE READERS DIGEST BOOK CLUB.

READING ABOUT AFRICAN AND EUROPEAN HUNTING AND THOSE SWEET BRITISH HUNTING RILFES WAS AN INSPIRATION TO ME.

QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO I STARTED BUYING MAUSER ACTIONS AND MAKING MY OWN RIGBY IMMITATIONS AND MAKE BELIEVE HUNTING RIFLES. I FULLY REALIZED I'D NEVER OWN A REAL RIGBY. I HAVE ONE built on '98 mauser actions IN 30:06, 6,5x68ai, 458wm, 243ai and an fclass long range in 308win. talk about wacky, i purchased a 1909 argentine action 2 years ago and couldn't figure out which caliber to use for it. after much wondering and pondering i ended up making it a 7mm mauser. :eek: BLUEPRINTED THE ACTION AND DONE SOME LIGHTENING, PUT ON A KRIEGER TAPERED BARREL, 21 INCH AND USED A MPI STOCK AND ENDED UP WITH A 6 3/4 POUND SHOOTING POWERHOUSE. I DEDICATED IT TO OSA JOHNSON.

I STILL HAVE THREE MAUSER ACTIONS AND HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT WHAT TO DO WITH THEM YET. MAYBE THE LIGHT BULB WILL COME ON SOME DAY.

BUT I STILL COVET YOUR RIGBY.

[Brithunter]

Billy,

Your quite welcome my friend :D Sorry about the keyboard :(

I gather due to your handicap and the comment about "MAKE BELIEVE HUNTING RIFLES" that you cannot hunt. Sorry but I cannot imagine how that would feel :o Your dedication in making up these rifles speak volumes on courage. If only I lived nearer you would be most welcome to see, feel and even try out my classics. I do try to shoot them ever now and then.

One day I hope to make areturn trip to the US to hunt with a friend and his brothers again. Last time I used a fairly modern rifle, a BSA CF2 in 7x57mm which was made in 1986, however I am feeling more and more the need to get back to using a classic rifle with iron sights. Starting gently by using a sporting aperture sight as I have a couple of rifles with them fitted plus a BSA Sportsman Five .22R/F which is also similarly equiped.

Now the downside with having rifles like this is that once one has handled them and shot them it's very difficult to accept the short cuts which are obvious in most modern production rifles. I suppose spolit is a good word for this :rolleyes:

As for projects........................... well I have a restoration one on-going. At a show I saw and brought a Mannlicher Schoenauer Model 1903 which had been heavily altered for either a small women or child. the butt is seriously shortened and in doing so they removed the pistol grip and chequred it Rigby style. At some time in it's life the barrel had been relined and as it turned out the chamber was out of round and wrecked cases :rolleyes: . After having it laying about and even putting it up for sale I enquired with Ron Wharton of Rigbys' as to what cartridge it could be re-barreled. After a while he contacted me and asked if I would like a brand new Steyr made barrel chambered for the 6.5x54MS cartridge.

Well I brought the barrel and waited but Ron was far too busy building custom Rigby style rifles for his wealthy clients and so the work was farmed out to another smith whom Ron recommended. The new barrel was fitted and the whole rifle re-blacked now I am waiting until I can afford to get a new stock made up. What started out as a cheap Schoenauer now is an expensive one .................................. but it does have a spanking new bore so I will one day get a nicely figured piece of walnut semi inletted and then have it fitted in the traditional way and ave a nice custom Mannlicher. It's much to altered to try and pass it for a std mannlicher so I may as well as one built for me :D

[Old Timer]

Quality,
I believe that quality dosn't wear a name other than a good barrel that shoots consistency tight groups and a action that is smooth and preforms flawlessly, with a saftey that works and is dependable. a stock that is solid and as attractive as possible given it's price range a finish that will stay on for years reguardless of the weather, and sence this rifle is a personal thing it must please it's owner, as for me I would rather own a good looking accruate rifle than a ugly one. Just my opinion.
Old Timer

[Dan in the Delta]

Having owned most major rifle brands, there's no question in my mind that some brands are built with more quality than others. The difference does not show up in accuracy (if at all), however, nearly as much as it does in how well and how reliably they function. Cycle the bolt of a Sako and then do the same with a Ruger and you'll know instantly that more effort (quality) went into the Sako. I've never had a Sako, Mauser or Winchester pre 64 model 70 fail to function in any way, but I have had Remington 700's fail to extract spent cases on several occassions. This has as much (or more) to do with the design itself as it does with the execution of that design. In my mind the 700 is an inferior design to begin with, which means it's going to be of inferior quality from the get go. The Ruger 77, on the other hand, is a sound design, but because it's excecuted rather sloppily, the result is a firearm of lesser quality, again IMHO.

So, I can't agree that quality only refers to how "pretty" a rifle is. Then again, in my experience a rifle of higher quality can be and usually is very pretty. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[fabsroman]

My view is that "quality", not just beauty, is in the eye of the holder (i.e., gun holder). It all depends what that person is looking for in a firearm.

[Montana Cowboy]

Howdy All
I like them all, ugly ones and pretty ones. MC