The alligators have to go.

[Cal Sibley]

M wife left a week ago to visit her mother in Sunrise, Fla. about 6 miles in from Fort Lauderdale. On the same day about three blocks from her mothers house a young woman was jogging near one of the many canals, and a gator grabbed and killed her.
There have been several such incidents this year, but it doesn't get publicized since Florida depends on tourist for much of its money. We're not talking sleepy little rural area here, Sunrise is close to half a million people now We can't continue to let this happen. Okeefenokee and the Everglades are both huge. That's where the gators belong. It's another case of letting wildlife and humans mix together, and it just doesn't work. What do you think? Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

[Jack]

Florida is going thru a drought now, that's lasted for several years. A lot of wetland areas are now dry land.....like parts of the Everglades.
I wonder how long ago Sunrise was populated by 'gators rather than people?

[drummer]

While I am sorry for the families of anyone killed by a wild animal, I tend to agree with Jack. Overpopulation and overurbanization are not good things, and the extirpation of wildlife in the name of progress runs against my grain as a biologist/conservationist.I'm not trying to be hateful, but if you want places to hunt and game to hunt, photgraph and watch, it's time to tighten the borders and pass out some birth control.

[fabsroman]

Agreed.

[Skinny Shooter]

On the topic of dangerous critters, people are more important than animals when the animals become a menace.
Manage (kill) the gators (insert Mtn Lion if you like) where they need managing (killing).
Val should know more about this than any of us and it sounds as if they breed like rabbits.
Allen

[multibeard]

Val started a thread on the killings when they first occured.

Not sure if this link will work http://www.huntchat.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43138

[fabsroman]

Skinny, killing all the alligators, etc. isn't the answer. Pretty soon you will be saying that feeding people is more important than saving the bluefin tuna. Humans are greedy creatures. We want more and more, and I think it has to do with dominance. The guy with all the land, peasants, etc several thousands of years ago would attract the most beautiful woman. Problem is that this greed is causing the extinction of animals and a worse place for our kids, grandkids, etc. to live.

Do you blame the great white for eating a surfer off the coast of California or Australia. I don't. They are animals, and they can't rationalize that what they are doing is wrong. Heck, to them it isn't wrong.

I guess we could argue that killing all the alligators, wolves, bears, lions, etc. isn't wrong either because we need that land to survive. Somehow, I have a hard time swallowing that.

Yes, human life is more valuable than animal life, but I think some people put themselves in harm's way and then blame the animal. Kind of like the idiot and his fiance that were camping with grizzly bears. Most people blame the bears, but I blame the idiot and his fiance. I don't know the exact circumstances of the alligator attacks, but I bet the victims were somewhat at fault. Blaming the alligator is like blaming the gun manufacturer for a criminal pulling the trigger on a handgun and killing somebody. Kind of like blaming an earthquake's destruction in San Francisco on the earthquake instead of blaming the people that moved there.

Everybody want their cake and they want to eat it too. Just the kind of society we live in. That is why the national savings rate is negative (i.e., we spend more than we make). God help us if tough times really do come around (i.e., Great Depression, World War II, gas shortage).

[Skinny Shooter]

:)

[popplecop]

Just another situation where man has expanded his habitat into the wild. Now blame the animals as it sure can not be mans fault, just because we drained those swamps for sub divisions and cane fields. We reap what we sow.

[Valigator]

HOUSTON -- A Missouri City family found a 400-pound alligator in their back yard Monday, KPRC Local 2 reported.

The alligator crawled under a fence the homeowners put up to keep wildlife out of their back yard on Cicada Drive near Peninsulas Drive.

The family's dog found the alligator around 7 a.m. The alligator then lunged at the dog.

Neighbors snapped photos of the 10-foot-long reptile as a game warden roped and wrestled it into a cage.

Officials said that the alligator might have been looking for a mate because it is breeding season.

The alligator will be destroyed because it could pose a danger to people.

[Valigator]

"Skinny, killing all the alligators, etc. isn't the answer."

Killing all of anything has never been the answer to anything, no one here at least would ever encourage that...Managing is the key word here...and to date we have had sloppy management...

the argument of who was here first and the longest is a moot point....and a silly argument....in the case of the alligator...they have no natural enemies but man, so man needs to take them out in relation to the enviornment....

[Valigator]

Now here is the best idea yet.....


© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

The top stories in America this week are simply astounding.

First, illegal aliens continue to invade the United States seemingly at will, as our elected clowns (aka the president and Congress) remain gutless in their attempts to stem the tide. Gonads are apparently out of stock in Washington when it comes to deporting illegals and building a barrier along the entire southern border with Mexico.

Meanwhile, alligators are on the prowl in Florida, threatening anything that moves, from people to puppy dogs. As far as I can tell, the critters have no apparent new hatred for humans. They're just doing what comes naturally when encroached upon.


Both these problems have received plenty of media coverage, and have left much of America in a panic. So what's the nation to do? How can the republic survive? After about 10 seconds of deep thought, the answer is obvious.

Put the alligators on the border.

Yes, finally a solution that has some teeth. Lots and lots of teeth.

[Skinny Shooter]

Thanks Val.
Still trying to figure out how I was being understood as proposing to "kill all the gators" from what I posted earlier.

[Valigator]

Hey Skinny, I got what you said....:cool:

[fabsroman]

Skinny, I understand your point. If I ever saw a human being threatened by any animal, and I had a gun in my hands, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot the animal.

What is tough is mankinds moving into the home of these animals and endangering their very existence.

As far as the illegal aliens are concerned, there has to be some type of compromise. I live near Washington, DC and a lot of my small business clients employ these type of people. What should be done is amnesty for those currently here. Have them start paying taxes and make them obey our laws. Then, close the borders and only let in a select few after they go through some serious screening. A good number of these guys are criminals. Don't know if it is because they are poor or because that is the way their culture is, but they need to learn that it isn't that way here. I have represented a couple of them in criminal matters, and it seems that leaving the country is always an option for them. Makes me wonder why they left their home country to begin with.

Deporting all of them would cause a disaster to our current economy. Some Americans are not working just because they cannot find the "right" job. A tech that works with my wife has a husband that hasn't worked in months, maybe years, because he does not want to work in retail anymore because it is beneath him. Yet, they had to sell their house because they could not afford the mortgage. Now, they need to move out of the townhouse they are renting because they cannot afford the $1,850 a month mortgage. Better yet, the husband is saying that there is no way he will rent an apartment at $1,000, and he is insisting on renting another townhouse at $1,750. Can he really be this stupid. By the way, the down payment for their initial house was given to them by a parent and all the equity that they got from the sale of the house has been spent on renting the new townhouse. Yet, this guy doesn't want to go to work. I wonder how many Americans are like this. Would Americans really be willing to pick crops and do construction? I think most of us want a cushy job behind a desk.

Me, when I get slow with the legal and accounting work, I work with my dad doing home remodeling. Haven't had to do that in quite a while, but I wouldn't hesitate to do it if I had to.

If we do not have cheap labor, all of us will be screaming at the cost of food and housing. Then again, if there were no illegals available to pay a cheap wage to, then the playing field would be level. My clients tell me that they have to use illegals because everybody else does and they cannot be competitive if they do not. INS and the IRS need to really start enforcing the laws, but that would mean additional funding is needed, and where does the additional funding come from, taxes. Of course, the IRS has a $340 billion dollar tax gap just from last year. If they could collect 50% of that, I am sure it would pay for all the additional auditors. Personally, I think everybody should be audited at least once every 5 years, and that audit should be for 3 years of tax returns. Corporations and companies should be audited even more often.

[drummer]

Yes controlled hunting is the answer.Yes, Allen is correct on this, although management entails much more than killing (that's been one of the problems for the last 150 years).
Another problem is that urban/suburban areas are generally populated by people who have no understanding of wildlife, and are generally against hunting e.g. the chickens in Key West.The more urbanized the country gets, the more bunny huggers you end up with it seems.

I support a closed border 100% and I can appreciate the humor of the "gators at the border". But put yourself in the shoes of a starving Mexican who's been ripped off by the government, the church, and the criminals of his native country.Would you choose to stay home and starve or make the gamble and swim the gator infested waters?
A war with Mexico makes more sense than war with Iraq........

[fabsroman]

Personally, I think we should just take over Mexico and keep on moving South as resources and manpower allows. There are enough resources in South America such that we shouldn't have this problem if the idiot governments could figure something out. Then again, this is kind of like New Orleans. What happened there never should have happened, but corruption was a problem. Maybe we could stop after Central America. Trying to keep these third world countries afloat is a pain, and allowing them to send their refugees over here is another problem.

[Valigator]

Originally posted by drummer
Yes controlled hunting is the answer.Yes, Allen is correct on this, although management entails much more than killing (that's been one of the problems for the last 150 years).
Another problem is that urban/suburban areas are generally populated by people who have no understanding of wildlife, and are generally against hunting e.g. the chickens in Key West.The more urbanized the country gets, the more bunny huggers you end up with it seems.

I support a closed border 100% and I can appreciate the humor of the "gators at the border". But put yourself in the shoes of a starving Mexican who's been ripped off by the government, the church, and the criminals of his native country.Would you choose to stay home and starve or make the gamble and swim the gator infested waters?
A war with Mexico makes more sense than war with Iraq........

Not to start any discord, but I dont have to put myself in the shoes of that starvin Mexican, I'd rather save my empathy for starvin citizens of my own country, like veterans who fought and lost limbs for this country and have to choose between eating or paying their health insurance, (because the rates are so high from the starvin Mexicans) ...I gotta enough to worry about with my own corrupt government, I gotta worry about theirs? I'll worry about my criminals and how to house, feed and punish them, I got plenty thank-you, but you want me to worry about thiers...? Hey charity starts in your own backyard, when we get that right maybe I can afford to worry about someone else's country....

[Valigator]

And Fabs I dont know quite what to say to you, I am gonna take three deep breaths and think about it...:rolleyes:

otherwise I would be banned for life from this site and well beyond....

But forming opinions on world policies after making observations on some of your sleazy clients is typical....maybe you should hang out with a better class of people..

[fabsroman]

Val,

Val, your presumption regarding who I hang out with is dead wrong. The people I hang out with are not usually my clients. I have three best friends. One is an F-18 pilot that graduated from the Naval Academy, the other is an accountant, that graduated with me from undergrad with a 3.95 gpa and whom works in the corporate headquarters of Black & Decker/Dewalt which is still a decent American company, and the third is a fellow attorney that graduated with me from law school. I believe all three of them are honorable men.

Along with my immigrant clients, there are plenty of sleazy Americans too. If every American followed the letter of the law, and required all the proof that an I-9 requires, these illegals would not be able to get a job here. However, us Americans are the ones breaking the law along with the illegals. So, don't think that it is all the illegals fault. If all Americans paid the taxes they owed and filed completely legit tax returns, then this country might have plenty of money to deal with the illegals and the cost of health care. As far as the illegals draining the health care system, I don't think it is necessarily all their fault. I know plenty without health insurance who do not go to the doctor unless they are dying. Nah, the drain on the medical system is the people that run to the doctor for stuffy noses and little things. That is why a lot of insurance plans are now making the insured pay a huge deductible before covering health care costs.

For you to assume that life is as easy as shutting down the border and deporting everybody, think how much those starving vets would be paying for food and other goods because Americans do not want to do the work that the illegals do for the same wage. I am sure that any farm owner out there would hire an American before an illegal if the American was willing to work for the same amount of money. If I took a survey of the people on this board, I am willing to bet that most of us do not pick fruits and vegetables for a living.

Look at the trouble GM and Ford are having because American workers want a ton of vacation, retirement benefits, and health insurance benefits that are not provided in China and the other Asian countries.

Yeah, deporting the illegals and putting the criminals to work is a much better idea than taking over latin america. Sad thing is that we wouldn't have California and a lot of the West if people didn't think like me to begin with.

At the end of the day, your ideas are about as good as mine (i.e., terrible). So, that is why we need to come up with a compromise.

Last but not least, do not assume that all illegals are terrible people. I know quite a few that are law abiding citizens, except for the fact that they are illegal. I know a lot of hispanics that have work visas and they are pretty decent people too.

Everybody in the US came from somewhere other than the US, with the exception of the Native American, but we tend to lose sight of that too. However, I also agree that the immigrants to this country need to become Americans and view this country as their country, like my parents do.

[Valigator]

Along with my immigrant clients, there are plenty of sleazy Americans too. If every American followed the letter of the law, and required all the proof that an I-9 requires, these illegals would not be able to get a job here. However, us Americans are the ones breaking the law along with the illegals. So, don't think that it is all the illegals fault. If all Americans paid the taxes they owed and filed completely legit tax returns, then this country might have plenty of money to deal with the illegals and the cost of health care. As far as the illegals draining the health care system, I don't think it is necessarily all their fault. I know plenty without health insurance who do not go to the doctor unless they are dying. Nah, the drain on the medical system is the people that run to the doctor for stuffy noses and little things. That is why a lot of insurance plans are now making the insured pay a huge deductible before covering health care costs. {Quote}

Fabs since when did you get so down on Americans? Now I am gonna admit I am in a very very bad mood since getting my health insurance rate hike, $500 a month now just for me, and thats only major medical. With a 2500 deductible..so you know plenty of people with out health insurance, who only go when they are dying, why do you suppose that is? If just one illegal starts pumping out babies that I gotta pay for, I am gonna get pissed..Lawyers are the number 1 reason in this country, health insurance is threw the roof, Lawyers are the number one reason I got revolving door criminals sniffing in my neighborhood, you wanna put blame, it rest squarely on your profession and if I ever prefaced a lawyer joke with don't take this personal Fabs, well after this last post of yours, I'll quit doing that..I dont know if anyone else took your post to be the most condescending post they have ever read, but I sure did. I got news for ya, Americans pay thru the nose for everyone, they also shoulder the burden of allowing you to purchase that townhouse you keep talking about and letting you get to work everyday with out a pipe bomb going off when you have your latte in a Starbucks that you stop off on the way to the job that has narrowed your attitude towards Americans so badly. We are not a third world country so therefore we do want our vacations, our paid leave etc...since when do you resent a working man for taking time off, I'll bet you have no problem planning your vacations..if illegals are given one inch in this country they will form a union, and with that all your examples of cheap labor and cheap products will go out the window, open thine eyes Fabs, the writing is on the wall

[fabsroman]

Guess what, it is the Americans that retain the lawyers, so stop trying to put blame where it doesn't belong. This is a society issue, not a lawyer issue. Why not blame the doctors for charging high prices and living in nice houses. Most of the doctors I know have houses, not townhouses.

Sure, pick on me because it is easy. Blame lawyers, doctors, etc., but don't blame society as a whole.

How about lobbying your legislature for tort reform, harder sentences on criminals, etc. Ultimately, it is the judges and the juries that let criminals off the hook. Again, just too easy for you to blame attorneys.

Me, I like to blame society as a whole. If we all did our part, things would work a lot better. If we all stopped after witnessing an accident, crime, or what have you, and volunteered to be a witness in Court, society would be a lot better off.

Now, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen witnesses lie on the stand. If we all told the truth, things would be a lot better too.

Again, it isn't attorneys causing all the problems, it is Americans causing all of them.

People want attorneys and accountants that lie for them. If everybody wanted the God's honest truth, I wouldn't be turning away clients that want me to lie for them in Court or on their tax return.

If you read ALL of my posts, you would know I do not lie for people and I do not take frivolous cases.

However, if it makes you sleep better at night by blaming attorneys for your health insurance increase, by all means continue to do so. If you keep telling yourself that, you might eventually believe it to be truth.

Don't blame the CEO's of the health insurance company who probably have huge salaries. Don't blame the CEO's of the company that are raising rates so that they can appeal to the greedy stockholders that want to see huge profits out of the company.

Next thing you know, you will be blaming attorneys for the increase in house prices and gasoline.

Then again, be careful what you wish for. Once tort reform is in place, hope that you do not end up on the wrong side of the stick. Hope that you are not the one that the doctor screws up on and that there is no monetary recovery for you.

Things in life are not black and white. Maybe I should be mad at you alligator hunters that charge so much for the hides because my wife wants an alligator purse. Don't tell me that my wife doesn't need an aligator purse, because she is as entitled to that as you are entitled to health insurance. Thankfully, she doesn't want one, but I hope you get my point.

You are as entitled to health insurance as I am entitled to a single family home. I work 10+ hours a day for what I have, and I work on the weekends too. If you want things, you need to work for them. If you want health insurance, you have to work for it.

You should run for office so that you can fix all the problems.

[Hawkeye6]

How's this for a solution to several problems?

"Dig a moat the length of the Mexican border. Use the dirt to raise New Orleans’ levees. Stock the moat with Florida alligators. Any other problems you’d like me to solve?"

This has been attributed to an anonymous Paul Harvey listner.

[Valigator]

Things in life are not black and white. Maybe I should be mad at you alligator hunters that charge so much for the hides because my wife wants an alligator purse. Don't tell me that my wife doesn't need an aligator purse, because she is as entitled to that as you are entitled to health insurance. Thankfully, she doesn't want one, but I hope you get my point.

"what is that a joke Fabs? are you serious? your wife is entitled to an alligator purse just as I am to health insurance? No, I am not getting your point.....I think this should be the end of this discussion ....its an obvious no-win ...and we will leave it at, we agree to strongly disagree...you see it your way, I see it mine....and mine is clearer than ever...

[fabsroman]

Hawkeye6,

That is a good one. If only it were that simple. Then again, I think we need a lot more action and a lot less talk nowadays.

Val,

My point is rather simple. I did a health care cost study around 1998 for an attorney I was clerking for. It seems that the government could pay for health care if it raised our taxes by something between 12% and 15%. Might as well pay for the health insurance if that is the case.

Advances in technology allow people to live longer and better nowadays. Problem is that it costs a lot for that technology and we all want to live longer and better lives. I know a guy that has gone through 3 knee replacements. Last I checked, those things weren't cheap and they weren't available 50 years ago. The big problem is that everybody thinks they are entitled to health care and every medical procedure and medication under the sun just because they happen to be breathing. Kind of like how people think they are entitled to cheap gas, cheap housing, cheap food, etc. It just ain't so.

I made a comment about two post before that stated I know people that do not go to the doctor unless they are dying. Well, I left off that I know hispanic people that do not go to the doctor unless they are dying. Not many of the ones I know have health insurance, so they only go when they are really sick. Of course, if they do not have any money, the state ends up picking up the bill. However, the same thing goes for the poor of this country. Back in 1999, the firm I was working for had a client that got shot several times because he would not give his jacket to some guys that demanded it at gunpoint. Medical bills were $60,000+ and the state picked up the tab because he was poor.

Entitlement started with the poor. We gave them Medicaid, social security disability, welfare, etc. and now they think they are entitled to these things. Granted, I think these were good programs when started, but now they have gotten out of hand. How come we have so many poor people in New Orleans that do not work? Why don't they do the jobs that the illegals do? My wife's tech's husband refuses to work in retail and construction, even though he only has a high school education, because it is beneath him. He refuses to live in a condo because it is beneath him. Meanwhile, they sold their house before it was foreclosed on. They used the equity to rent a townhouse they could not afford, and not, a year after selling their house, they are planning on moving into another townhouse because it is $100 a month less than where they currently rent.

Anyway, I digress. My point with the alligator purse is that people think they are entitled to it. Kind of like they think they are entitled to health insurance. When I attended law school, I had no health insurance because I could not afford it. Such is life. However, I did not complain up and down about it.

Okay, now I have to get back to work on a Saturday over Memorial Day Weekend so that I can try to earn enough money so I can afford the single family house, vacation property, retirement fund, new firearms, and everything else that I am entitled to.

I wonder what life was like 100 years ago? How about 200 years ago? Did the government solve most of people's problems back then, or did people have to take care of things themselves? Then again, life was a lot more simple.

[fabsroman]

Val,

I thought of one more thing. You started another thread here regarding new vehicles that you are interested in. Some of them were pretty pricey and on the luxury side. If you are thinking about buying a luxury car and you are complaining about an increase in your health insurance, I have absolutely no sympathy for you. Just as I have no sympathy for several of my clients.

When my clients start up a business, I tell them to pay themselves the bare minimum they need to survive. Well, I have one lady paying herself the equivalent of $125,000 a year to "survive." How anybody needs $125,000 a year to survive is beyond me. However, she did trade her 2 year old Lexus RX 330 in on a brand new Lexus RX 330 because the old one was getting dirty and it did not have navigation. Mind you, it didn't cost her anything because they gave her what she owed on it as a trade in and she only had to pay an additional $12,000 to get into the new one, and she has the same car payment for the next 6 years. She has come to the conclusion that she "needs" a new car every two years because she cannot stand them when they are dirty. Now, those were all her words. Of course, she just got married at the justice of the peace because she could not afford the wedding that she wanted, and she is complaining that the company's operating account is continually decreasing. Wonder why? Because she is paying herself $125,000 a year to live.

I could go on and on. My granite client went out and bought a pretty large house and several vehicles because he thought the money would always be coming in. Now it isn't and he couldn't even pay his taxes come April 18th this year.

If you want health insurance, buy a cheaper car that will get you to and from where you have to go. There are several that are in the $10,000 to $20,000 range that will work just fine. My Taurus cost $17,000 eight years ago and it has lasted those 8 years and 146,000 miles. My wife's Sonata cost $18,000 4 years ago and it is at 90,000.

At the end of the day, I kind of agree with the high deductible and high copay health insurance policies because it prevents people from running to the doctor for every little thing. I have been to several health insurance seminars and you wouldn't believe the things that the insurance companies and doctors do. For instance, if you are on a health insurance plan that uses capitation (i.e., the plan pays the doctor a fixed amount per year per patient no matter how many times the patient visits), then the doctor's secretary is conditioned to schedule you a week or two down the road to see if the symptoms resolve on their own (i.e., the doctor is getting paid regardless of whether or not he sees you). Now, if your insurance plan pays the doctor for every visit, the secretary will schedule you right away so that the doctor can make that money, even if the cold or whatever would resolve itself over time. Now, you will probably blame the attorneys for this somehow, but here are the doctors milking the system and treating patients like crap. Why does one patient get preferential scheduling over another based upon the insurance policy they have?

There is plenty wrong with what we have going on in this country, but I think it has to do with people's morals in general. If people stopped lying and cheating, and they started saving money instead of spending everything they make, and they needed less, then things might go a little smoother and there might be less complaining. However, manufacturers and marketing departments create so many things and create so many wants, that it is insane. Nobody can have everything that is made, yet we want it all. Even though we have a CD player in our car that works perfectly fine and a computer that can burn CD's so we could essentially have all our music in the car, we want a $300 MP3 player because it is trendy, a little less bulky than those CD's, and better organized than the CD's. With that said, my wife has one and I just got a new PDA that functions as an MP3 player. Needed the PDA for work, didn't need the MP3 player part of it, but I'll take it.

Why am I so down on society in general, probably because I see the financial condition of my clients and very few are saving any money. Probably because I run into potential clients that want me to lie for them. Somehow, I think it has a lot to do with my profession and the elements that I am exposed to.

Okay, now I really have to get back to work.

[8X56MS]

There have been a few isolated incidents. Most of this is media hype (well, unless you were the victim). There is plenty of room for Gators as well as people. The trick is to keep your awarness level up, don't feed 'em, and pretty much stay out of their way. A lot of folks carry a handgun these days, and most anything can and will kill one of those lizards.
Frankly, Deer kill more people each year than Gators do. You have to keep things in perspective. I believe you have a much better chance of winning the Fla Lotto than being what we UF folks call "Gator Bait" :D

[fabsroman]

I agree with your post. The media needs stories. That is why we heard a lot about shark attacks during the summer of 2001. There wasn't much interesting to report about. The media made it seems as though the sharks were running out of food and coming to shore to attack humans; however, once 9/11 happened, the sharks disappeared. Coincidence? I doubt it. The media just had a better story to cover.

By the way, my wife went to UF.

[Valigator]

Alligator snatches pet dog in Fla. park

By BEAU ZIMMER
Tampa Bay's 10

LARGO, Fla. -- Al Clark and his two shih tzus loved walking along the water's edge at Ridgecrest Park in Largo. But the outdoor fun came to a tragic end on Sunday when the oldest dog, FeFe, was snatched and eaten by an alligator.

“It was all of a sudden," a stunned Clark said. "She never let out a yelp or anything. Then I looked back and she was in his mouth. And then he was in the water and swimming away.”

Clark says it all happened so fast, there was no chance to save his precious pet.

“The feeling of helplessness is awful," he said. "I've never been through anything like that before."

Al's son, Derrick, was once a park worker at Ridgecrest. He captured video of the 7-foot gator, and worries the next victim could be a child.

[skeet]

Fabs usually agree with you on most issues....but with the issue of illegals...not. Your family came to the US(LEGALLY) years ago to make a better life for themselves...and they have done so. They fit into the culture while not forgetting their heritage ie look to your name. Not disparaging you here.... it is very apparent to me that your dad loves this country and still keeps the Italian heritage in mind. The difference between your family and the illegals is other than the legal issue...your father wanted to fit into his new home and become an asset to this country. These people come here with no other purpose than to take advantage of our generosity and stupidity. The first thing they do is get food stamps and (free) medical care(which we as tax payers are paying for.) Send all illegals out of the country. We'll get along, believe me. As far as the law abiding (citizen?) illegals..Even if 90% are law abiding...that still leaves 10% of 11 million illegals that aren't law abiding(thats 1.1 million criminals)...even if you forget that the words illegal alien means they have broken our laws to get here to begin with...and I agree...fines and jail time for the people and corporations that hire them just to save money. As far as Black & Decker...most of their jobs have been shipped to Mexico...putting legal citizens of this country out of jobs. I happen to know quite a few who worked for them. In fact my uncle was once a VP of B&D and quit when they started doing the things they have done. Heck...not too many people know it but the Chinese government is sending chinese people into the US illegally for their own nefarous reasons which shouldn't be all that hard to reason out. We NEED to close our borders to any but LEGAL immigrants and no immunity to those illegals here now!! Time to wake up and smell the coffee here ya'll.

[Valigator]

skeet you hit on a very real aspect of illegals, now you know my area of research is on "sex offender" but this applies to any illegal who commits crimes in the United States, if they happen to get caught and happen to go thru the system, there is absolutely no motivating factor for them to comply with the terms and conditions of their release. In fact there happens to be a big hoopla about the "restrictions" placed on those convicted of sex crimes...the 1000ft rule, not living next to parks, playgrounds etc...the big argument is that with these restrictions, it will force these guys underground and not comply at all, well I got news for you, if you check the numbers, the over-riding segment of the population of sex offenders, NOT Complying are illegals or foriegn nationals....they have no....compulsion to comply, but that is just one segment of the criminal element, add up those who have been convicted of an assortment of crimes and you got alot of bad guys, flying under the radar...

[Valigator]

The dumbest thing I have read in a while, drain the stupid lake, for Gods sake, throw a pig's lung on a hook for a day, that will bring him up...drain the lake??????:confused: :rolleyes:

Gator may be lurking in Mesa lake












MESA, Ariz. Residents of a Mesa apartment complex think they know why ducks are disappearing from their lake.

A gator is on the loose.

Residents say the gator has been living in three-foot-deep water for close to a week. Because it's hot, the gator is likely hanging out at the bottom of the lake.

Game and Fish and volunteers from the Phoenix Herpetological Society walked around the lake perimeter and used binoculars to locate the intruder, but had no luck.

They decided to begin draining the lake into a nearby canal and planned to catch the alligator early tomorrow once the water goes down.

[Valigator]

A man in South Carolina jumped on the back of a 10-foot alligator to save his girlfriend's pet dog as it was being dragged into a lake, according to a Local 6 News report.



"If this were my dog, the guy would be my hero"



Brent Carey said he was at a park in Charleston with his girlfriend and her dog, Chance, when an alligator jumped out of the water and started to drag Chance into the lake.

Carey jumped on the alligator, grabbed it near the back legs and began to fight to free the dog.

"I could almost grab him and I thought I'm going to die right now, and Chance is probably already dead," Carey said.::

[fabsroman]

Those are about two moronic stories. If the gator is in 3 feet of water, couldn't they just fly a plane over and take a looksee. Any pilot guys want to chime in on this one. Is it possible to see a gator from the air if it is in 3 feet of water?

What I want to know is if they found a gator after draining the lake/pond. I have another idea why ducks might be missing. Uh, foxes. Uh, how about they flew away. If these were cows that were missing, I might be a little more worried.

[Valigator]

depends on the lake, in some of the more murky waters no, you can't see him. One of the reasons they have been around for millions of years is the coloring of gators....I'll give you one example...we have whats called a river of grass in the everglades, some of that stuff is just nasty...its a mixure of muck, grass, and down here hydrilla...I have literally had a gator tethered to the boat and after he had rolled in that stuff, you cant make out his head from his tail....now its another ball game in the gulf, we had a small plane in the keys flew from Marathon to Miami a few days a week and you could see every shark and every ray in the water..thats when I quit water-sking in the gulf, especially in what we consider winter months down here....

[fabsroman]

Okay, the video footage of sharks is what I am familiar with, and thought it might be the same with gators, but now I see that it isn't. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense because they are ambush predators.