Cheap Labor!!!!!

[multibeard]

Received this as an email. I live in a farming community that uses a ton of migrants. Legal or illegal who really knows. The farmers say the the migrants are the only ones that will work the fields for minimum wage. What are the actual wages they make when you figure in the Benifits they receive. A local person can not get these same benifits if they did the same job. Subsidized cheeeep labor for the farmers paid for by the taxpayers.

Below is the email

Cheap Labor Isn't that what the whole immigration issue is about? Business don't want to pay a decent wage, consumers don't want expensive produce, Government will tell you Americans don't want the jobs but the bottom line is cheap labor. "The phrase "cheap labor" is a myth, a farce, and a lie. There is no such thing as "cheap labor."

Take, for example, an illegal Mexican who sneaks in here with his wife and as many as five children.
· He takes a job for five or six dollars an hour. (*Cheap!)
· At that wage with six dependents he pays no income tax, yet at the end of the year if he files income tax he gets an "earned income credit" of up to $3,200 free.
· He qualifies for Section 8 housing and subsidized rent,
· He qualifies for food stamps.
· He qualifies for free (no deductible, no co-pay) health care.
· His children get free breakfasts and lunches at school.
· He requires bilingual teachers and books.
· He qualifies for relief from high energy bills.
· If they are or become, aged, blind or disabled they qualify for SSI.
· Once qualified for SSI they can qualify for medicare.
· All of this is at that taxpayers expense.
· He doesn't have to worry about car insurance, life insurance, or homeowners insurance.
· Taxpayers provide Spanish language signs, bulletins and printed material.
· He cannot be fired, harassed, or sued.
· He and his family receive the equivalent of $20 to $30 an hour in benefits.
Working Americans are lucky to have $5 or $6 an hour left after paying their bills and his. They also pay for increased crime, graffiti, and trash cleanup.

Cheap labor? YEAH RIGHT!"

[Rocky Raab]

My only quibble is your comment: Business don't want to pay a decent wage.

It isn't a case of "want to" but a case of can't afford to. An amployer could pay any amount a worker wanted. You want a thousand bucks an hour to pick lettuce? No problem...as long as that employer could sell that lettuce for a hundred bucks a head. Either that or the worker had better be able to pick ten thousand heads of lettuce an hour to justify that wage!

Lacking either of those options, about five bucks an hour is all a grower can afford to pay. The government benefits issue is a whole 'nuther ball of bees, though. With that, I wholly agree.

[fabsroman]

Okay, most people hire illegals because "they have to." I cannot tell you how many times I have heard contractors say that. They have to hire immigrant workers or they cannot stay in business because their competitors hire immigrant workers. I blame the first greedy person that broke the law and required others to break the law just to stay in business. I find the same thing with tax preparers that prepare illegitimate tax returns. When their clients leave them to come to me, I have to usually turn those people away because I cannot file an honest tax return and get them what they want. Don't you think it hurts me to turn away business because others are cheating the system? Last year, I was so tempted to send a letter to the IRS to report a CPA/taxpreparer that prepared some horrendous returns for a potential client of mine, but that borders on a breach of the attorney/client relationship because it could possibly subject my potential client to an audit. There should be rewards handed out for ever person that is turned in for breaking the law. Maybe then, the playing field will be completely level. I read somewhere that there is going to be a fine of $20,000 for hiring illegal immigrants. I hope that this is $20,000 per illegal immigrant hired and they should give a whistle blower 10% of the fine amount. If it puts people out of business, too bad. There is insulation from loosing everything (i.e., corporation and LLC formation), but they should require any employer to post a bond of $100,000 before he can even hire somebody. This would level the playing field for everybody. How about the guy that pays his sales tax versus the guy that doesn't? How about the guy that pays for workman's comp insurance versus the guy that doesn't? How about the guy that pays his income tax versus the guy that doesn't? People/businesses that break the law for financial gain end up hurting those that follow the law. Like they say, good guys finish last, but that shouldn't be the case. Anyway, I digress.

Now, there are a couple of statements up there that I am not so sure about. How can somebody file a tax return when they do not have a valid social security number? Plus, the IRS has been pretty strict about pursuing violations of the Earned Income Credit and taxpreparers can be on the hook for violations of the Earned Income Credit if they do not do due dilligence in preparing that portion of the return. Some of my clients that file 1096 information returns and 1099's with the IRS for payments they made to subcontractors, have had some of those 1099's flagged because the IRS could not match the 1099 to a valid social security number or the social security number provided did not match the name on file with the IRS. The first time a 1099 is kicked back, the IRS requires my client to get a W-9 from the subcontractor. The second time a 1099 is returned, the IRS requires that my client keep backup withholding.

How can somebody get SSI benefits if they do not have a valid social security number?

How can somebody qualify for medicaid when they are illegal? I have a hard enough time qualifying my poor, and I mean poor, American citizen clients for Medicaid.

How do all these illegals qualify for all these programs?

[multibeard]

I too don't agree with all the statements in the email I posted.

Rocky The farmers and processers here don't have to pay a decent wage to the migrants because you and I are paying the benifits that any other employer would have to pay either in benifits or higher wages to get workers. If I went and did the same job I would get the same wage with out the free daycare and meals for the kids, foodstamps, housing, health care etc. The only cost to the farmer is what few pennies of his personal income tax might go to provide the services the migrants get.

Where I do agree with it is the fact that the migrants Legal or Illegal are given benefits that are denied to NON MIGRANTS doing the same job for the same pay.

Years ago there was a health clinic opened in the county that was free to all farm workers. Now the name on the clinic is MIGRANT CLINIC. I have never heard why the other farm workers are now being discriminated against.

I don't know if it takes proof of citizenship in order to get a ss card. Do you know Fabs? They get illegal green cards all the time.

Come over here and watch the steady stream of migrants going into the Social Service office with there hand out. All this and on the weekends they are lined up getting money orders at the banks and postoffices getting money orders to send there check back to there banks back home. They live for free here so they can bank there money back home.

They have great planned parenthood. They make sure to stay in Michigan till they have there kids because the state of Michigan will pick up the tab.

[fabsroman]

Yep, it is easy to get Medicaid to cover the costs of having a child. That much I do know.

As far as the immigrants getting additional services above and beyond what we get, I do not think that is true. They probably get services that any normal poor person would get. Trust me, I had a client that was born in America and not of hispanic decent, she had three kids from three different fathers, she didn't know where a single father was, she didn't receive child support from any of the fathers, but she received section 8 housing, she received food stamps, she was on Medicaid along with her 3 kids, etc. She made $22,000 that year, paid very little in withholding, yet I got her $8,000+ back on her tax return by taking advantage of the child tax credits and earned income tax credits. That meeting was another fun one that I don't think I will forget anytime soon. The tax returns I am speaking about were her 2004 returns. When I met with her to explain the returns and have her sign them, I asked her what she was going to do with all the money. Her response was that it was already spent via her credit cards and that she was going to use the money to pay her credit cards. However, if she ever did get any money she was going to buy a big screen TV. She then proceeded to complain about the state of Maryland because its benefits were a lot less than New York's. My mouth almost fell to the floor because Maryland is a pretty liberal state. She then proceeded to tell me that she quit her job because she and her boss did not get along very well, and she was wondering if I needed a secretary. She finished with, "Can I mail you a check becuase for the returns because I forgot my checkbook." Man was I pissed and I was already handling a case for her on a pro bono basis related to some shop lifting that her son got caught doing. I had to tell her that my policy on tax returns was cash or check on delivery and if she didn't have her checkbook I would be more than willing to drive her to her bank so she could make the withdrawal. I ended up having to drive her to the bank. I felt like crap doing it, but I think I would have felt a lot worse later on if she had made a fool out of me.

At the end of the day, I do not blame the immigrants or the poor for taking advantage of what is offered to them if they do it legally, because we all take advantage of whatever we can get legally. Take me for instance. My wife works at Target and gets a 10% discount. On top of that, we use the Target Visa and every time we spend $1,000 on it, we get a 10% off coupon to shop at Target. Well, we wait for that 10% coupon to do all our household shopping, which we ended up doing today and saving $60.

Me, I blame the system for catering to the poor way too much. Welfare, food stamps, Medicare, SSI, and Social Security all need to be modified. These things cannot be life long entitlements. They should be used to help those that are truly disabled and to provide the others with a little help for a limited time period until they can find a job and get back on their feet. However, most politicians do not want to touch any of these programs because they would lose the vote of the poor.

Now, when an illegal immigrant has a child on US soil, I believe the child is an American citizen at that point and would be entitled to most of the above benefits. So, it is not the illegal immigrant that is getting the handouts, but the illegal immigrants child that is a US citizen by birth. Exactly what the future holds for us with all these children remains to be seen, but I know plenty of immigrant children that are just fine (i.e., me, my brothers, and some of my clients).

Again, I think we need to revamp the welfare/handout system, limit the amount of freebies, and lock down the borders to a certain degree.

[Valigator]

Multibeard, you left out the pre-paid $7500 visa given to every cuban that makes it to my shores....along with the other entitlements you mentioned...

Fabs, love ya to death but damn your getting more long winded everyday....I got news for ya...legitimate taxpayers are tired of getting the dry screw while watching the world sits back and laugh, Americans contribute more to the stability of the planet than anyone....I'll make ya a deal? Lets cut out the fat we give to other countries, cut down the entitlements to every third worlder who makes it across the border, enforce a tight guest worker program, hell I wouldnt mind paying 2 bucks for a head of lettuce. But until we do that I got news for ya, I am gonna look for every loophole, every deduction I can find, and if I can screw Uncle Sam out of one buck this year, I am gonna do it. Your attitude that AMericans should pay more, pay their fair share as you put it, be fined, punished and prosecuted is starting to turn into bile at the base of my throat. Just how much more do you want? Maybe a little blood, your speaking like a true democrat...suck the life blood out of the middle class and give it all to a broken system...

PS that little comment about giving birth on American soil...what have you lost your mind entirely? Thats just what I need in the big picture...a nation full of third worlders pumping out kids and turning an already unskilled poor lower income class into something bigger and needier thats going to come out of my pocket...wake up Fabs....

[fabsroman]

Val,

I am fully awake, but are you sure you had your coffee this morning before reading my post. I seriously doubt that you got to the end of my post because you must have missed the following:

"Me, I blame the system for catering to the poor way too much. Welfare, food stamps, Medicare, SSI, and Social Security all need to be modified. These things cannot be life long entitlements. They should be used to help those that are truly disabled and to provide the others with a little help for a limited time period until they can find a job and get back on their feet. However, most politicians do not want to touch any of these programs because they would lose the vote of the poor."

That is also how I feel about your "entitlement" to health care. Completely different subject, but I'll address it a little here. Your health insurance company increases its rates because of what it needs to pay out for its insureds, which are all people that pay into the company. As far as illegals receiving free services, it is either paid for by the government, which means increased taxes, or charitable organizations, which I doubt you are paying into. So, blaming the health insurance increases on illegals just isn't fair.

As far as me being a democrap, I think you are way off there, but I guess we can resort to name calling whenever somebody has a different viewpoint than oneself.

Finding any loophole to screw Uncle Sam is just fine, but I do not like that wording. Personally, there are no loopholes. I use the law to ensure that my clients pay the taxes they owe, not one cent more and not one cent less. Yes, I take advantage of the law, but I don't do unlawful stuff like deducting stuff that should not be deducted by law.

Solving the illegal problem is not as simple as just passing a law that makes it a felony to be an illegal in this country. I think the first thing we need to do is make sure that the border is secure and we stop the flood of illegal immigration. We need to do this for national security and economic security.

See, I did about 2 hours of reading on this subject last night, and I learned some new things. Americans might be willing to pick lettuce for a fair wage, but what exactly is fair? I still think Americans want way too much. When life was good, Ford and GM were powerhouses in the auto industry. Now, they are struggling to stay afloat and Toyota is number 1. Yeah, Americans justify buying a Toyota because a lot of them are made here, but the profits still go overseas and are taxed by Japan, not the US. Yeah, Toyota is traded on the global stock exchange, but that does not mean that the majority isn't owned by Japanese.

Anyway, I need to go on a bike ride with my wife, but I'll get back to this tonight.

[justwannano]

Not so. At least where I work.

There seems to be a policy of unlimited overtime.
The mexican workers just sit around after the shift is over and the supervisor will find something for them to do even though we have little or no work to do.
One woman comes in 4 hours before her 3rd shift starts and the supervisor puts her to work.
Now this sounds like a great deal but they have refused to pay higher hourly wages and explaining it by saying "see here you can have as much overtime as you want."
This happens even though they send folks home for lack of work.
Well for one thing I do well over my share of work in 40 hours and don't like the place well enough to live there.Maybe this sounds like I'm bragging but every night someone asks how many have you done and its always more than anyone else.BTW this is piece work with no incentives.

[fabsroman]

If it is piece work, what is the deal with overtime. Last I checked, you didn't get paid by the hour for piece work, but by the number of pieces you turn out. So, if you want to make a ton of money, you turn out more pieces every day. Maybe that is how the farmers should pay the workers, by the number of bushels of vegetables picked, but they would probably still keep the "wages" low.

[Slim-Zippy]

Fabs et. al.,

If you are ever forced into the social systems of most states and the federal government, then you will realize what an incompetent and corrupt mess it has become. It is just a game all the parties involved play at the expense of the user and the tax payer. Of course they're people that don't mind getting down in the swill just to get something for nothing. The rest of the people that truly need help become victims of a nonsensical process that defeats itself and people at every turn of the beaurocratic maze. If it wasn't so disgusting then it would be very good morbid humor.

[Valigator]

I was watching a program on the history channel about a month ago, they were profiling someone dont remember who right now...but the guts of the program focused on mismanagement and bureaucracy of the Federal Government....but the reason I remembered this was the time-line, it was in the 30's....

[fabsroman]

If the government were a business, it would be out of business. How many businesses could be in as much debt as the US government and still operate? I don't doubt that it is a maze to get assistance from the government. Sad thing is that we probably need a government this size to deal with all the issues we have in our current world.

Of course, the government could probably be managed a little better. Problem is that it will be tough to change decades and decades of culture within the system. Kind of like cutting off long term assistance programs to those that have been in the system for decades and those that grew up under the welfare system and then entered the welfare system. Imagine cutting all those benefits off to people that have been on them for decades.

Now, I am all for making government more stream lined, cutting off welfare/public assistance for all those except the ones that really need it, lowering the tax rate, decreasing the nations deficit, increasing savings among Americans, getting all immigrants to pay taxes, getting all US citizens to pay their fair share of taxes, closing the borders, working something out for those illegal immigrants already here (e.g., you can stay as long as you haven't committed a felony in the US), etc. Problem is that these problems are not very easy to solve. Throw in the price of gas and alternative fuel, and can you imagine what it is like to be the President of the United States. All of this is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Slim-Zippy]

The longer I live, the more often I've seen that the solution to some of the most complicated problems is the simplest of solutions. Our society is destroying itself from within and I see no end in sight. When and if we have a large enough disaster or threat that we identify in time, then we will stop thinking in selfish terms and solve our problems in this country.

The more things change; the more they stay the same.?

[justwannano]

Originally posted by fabsroman
If it is piece work, what is the deal with overtime. Last I checked, you didn't get paid by the hour for piece work, but by the number of pieces you turn out. So, if you want to make a ton of money, you turn out more pieces every day. Maybe that is how the farmers should pay the workers, by the number of bushels of vegetables picked, but they would probably still keep the "wages" low.

Naw. You get paid by the hour AND they keep track of the number of pieces you do. There is a "rate" but it is only used if you aren't doing enough.

"a ton of money"??? yeah right. Rates are set at the highest nunber done by anyone. Not an average.

[skeet]

Fabs,

Just because a child is born here doesn't make him or her a citizen. If the parents are legal immigrants then the child born here is a citizen..Illegal immigrants?? Children born here are citizens of the parents' home country...although the State of California doesn't understand that. As an example...if a child is born to an ambassador or anyone in the foreign legation from ..say Bolivia..what you are saying is that they are citizens of the US...not so...Not so also with a child born to an illegal immigrant from Bolivia.or any other country...Unless the government gives them a free pass like the Senate wants to do. How many times will the government grant amnesty to all these lllegals. It isn't fair to the legal immigrants ..or to the US born citizens of this country!:mad:

[fabsroman]

Good points Skeet. I'll have to look up the actual requirements of citizenship in the US. Won't be doing it anytime soon though because I am heading to New York for an extended weekend. I'll try to revisit this thread when I get back, along with reading some of the case law on wolves out west. This board gives me more legal questions than my clients, but you know me, I hate having questions unanswered.

[Aim to maim]

Skeet,

I have no idea where you are getting your information, but it is incorrect. All children born on U.S. soil are automatically U.S. citizens from the moment of birth, regardless of the immigration status of their parents. The only exceptions are the children of certain foreign diplomatic personnel posted to the U.S.

California has nothing to do with it. It is Federal law, pursuant to current Federal court interpretation of Section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

I wish it were not the case, but it is.
:(

[Valigator]

Did any of you see the clip about the conjoined babies born here? How did they say it? The parents were here on some kind of visa and she just happened to go into labor here! Yea right, now you know you are paying for those babies to be separated. I don't have a problem so much as I do with the fact she made sure she was on US soil when she went into labor....and they are blowing smoke up your you know what saying it was a coincidence...