Israel will pull US in

[Valigator]

I think I made mention here a while ago, that one of the guys I communicate is a pilot out west. He told me that he was training Israeli pilots and that Israel would be our front door into war in the Middle East......what do you think????:confused:

[M.T. Pockets]

Well, I hate to think about it but it wouldn't surprise me. I hope I don't sound anti-semetic but I don't understand the U.S. unconditional support of Israel. Israel has support from the religious right and the liberal left. It's all a mess. It's never been good when governments and religions mix.

[fabsroman]

I think I have posted about this before, but here goes again. Personally, I think we should leave Israel to itself, along with a lot of other countries. However, I am sure that Jews in this country control a lot of the economy and have a decent pull on politics, so the politicians have to make them happy. However, what really bugs the hell out of me is the liberal jews that think we should not be over in Iraq and Afghanistan and who do not want us to go to war. HELLO, if we didn't support Israel 50+ years ago, the muslims wouldn't have a deep hatred for us and 9/11 never would have occurred. What has developed in the Middle East has developed over decades, not just recently. Honestly, I cannot understand why the muslim nations haven't united and just gotten rid of Israel.

Now, as far as our current foreign policy is concerned, I think we are trying to back away from Israel and we have asked Israel to pull out of the West Bank and/or Gaza. Of course, they pulled out but now they are back in for military reasons.

Anyway, I think we should just nuke the entire Middle East, but that just isn't a possibility because of our reliance on oil and the fact that the world in general would be really pissed off at us. We should all be driving flex fuel vehicles and take a hands off policy regarding the Middle East, including Israel. If they want to fight to the death, so be it, but don't drag us into this crap. Our problem is that we haven't fought a straight up war since World War II where we knew exactly who the enemy was. We keep fighting in wars like Korea, Vietnam, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq to liberate the people from their current government. Problem with that is that we do not know which "people" support us and which do not. So the bullets can come from anywhere. In World War II it was pretty simple, just destroy everything the Germans, Japs, and Italians had, period. We even bombed entire cities without much thought about civilian casualty. Now, we worry about killing a single civilian.

Too much politics in war.

[Montana Cowboy]

Howdy Fabsroman
The reason we have all these little wars is so we can test all our new weapons. The reason we don't have a world war anymore is because the rich people who run the world know that they would lose too as there would be no winners in a big war.Once nations start slinging nukes around were toast. MC

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Our problem is that we haven't fought a straight up war since World War II where we knew exactly who the enemy was.

In World War II it was pretty simple, just destroy everything the Germans, Japs, and Italians had, period. We even bombed entire cities without much thought about civilian casualty. Now, we worry about killing a single civilian.



And if you think about it, we haven't really had any serious threats from Germany, Japan or Italy since 1945. They still remember, even if we don't.

[fabsroman]

Montana Cowboy,

I am not saying that we need a World War, and I understand why we cannot have one. The loser would feel as though it needs to fire nukes at the end. With that said, maybe every country sould have nukes. Then, we wouldn't have any wars anymore, which would be fine with me. However, what happens if a mad man gets his hand on nukes. If the Arabs beat the crap out of the Israelis, would the Israelis use nukes since they have them and the Arabs do not? I wonder about that.

My point is that in conventional warfare, it would be much easier for our military if they just needed to plow down a nation instead of trying to keep peace, arrange for a new gov't, etc. Do you think we would have had a problem winning the Korean war or the Vietnam war if we treated the entire country the way we treated Germany, Japan, and Italy. Those wars would have been over in a year or two with very little casualties to the US. That is my point.

[fabsroman]

Just read this on Yahoo:

"Israeli warplanes attack Beirut airport
AP - 1 hour, 24 minutes ago
BEIRUT, Lebanon - Israel intensified its attacks Thursday against Lebanon, blasting Beirut's airport and a Lebanese army air base near the Syrian border, and imposing a naval blockade. More than 50 people have died in violence following the capture of two Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah militants. Warplanes punched holes in the runways of Beirut's international airport and Lebanon's main military air base 30 miles to the east, an attack that could draw the Lebanese army into the conflict."

Now, if we were to attack a civilian airport to try and gain the return of two of our missing soldiers captured by an organization not directly affiliated with the country we are attacking, how much flak do you think we would catch? The Israelis have killed at least 50 people trying to gain the return of their two soldiers. This is going to get ugly. The only thing that could be worse is if the Chinese ally themselves with the Arabs in exchange for oil for their booming economy. Then we will have one heck of a war and possibly a World War where the US, Israel, and China will have nukes.

[PJgunner]

Can you say Armaggedon? :( The sad part of a lot of this is at one time we could have easily nuked out the Middle east with the neutron bomb. For those that don't remember it, that was the very dirty nuke designed to kill people while leaving the built up infrastructure relatively undamaged. People died but he buildings were OK. They were designed so that the radioactivity would drop to safe levels within about three months. IIRC, it was President Ford who ordered them destroyed. Too bad. Just might have been a serious tactical mistake.
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

Can we make them again? LOL

[Montana Cowboy]

Fabsroman
I understand that you were not saying we should have a Nuke war. I was just making a point that the rich run the world and they know that there would be no winner in a WW. The rich don't really care who wins any war,they are still rich, and still run the show.
As for Vietnam, Korea etc etc we could have kicked ass big time if we wanted to. I heard on Paul Harvy news one day about documents that Had been declassified from the Korean war. In the documents was the fact that President Truman threatend to use nukes to end the war if they did not get serious with meaningfull negoations.
I get very angry when politicians micro manage a war such as Vietnam. The military commanders could have won that war in three months max if they had run the show. Bomb here but don't bomb on the other side of the river where you see them setting up SAM missile site/ off loading from war materials from a ship etc.
Yes I think the Israelis woud use a nuke. I do admire them as you know where you stand with them from the begining. Fire one rocket at them and you can expect 1,000 rockets to be heading your way,they don't mess around.
Hey, what did I do with the spell check. Correct any of my mistakes:D. Thanks MC

[fabsroman]

Clinton was the same with the war in Kosovo. My buddy that flies F-18's heard from some friends that Clinton was picking which targets to bomb and which not to bomb. Of course, the moron left out a lot of targets that were threatening to pilots. A good CEO, President, etc. knows when to stand back and let others do what they are supposed to do. Presidents rarely have actual experience in warfare, so unless they have been a general or admiral, I think they should keep their nose out of the actual warfare. Tell the generals and admirals what the big picture is (e.g., usurp Sadam and get a democratic government in Iraq), and sit back and let the generals and admirals do what needs to be done.

I wish the US could act like Israel. Blow up the twin towers and we are going to blow up all of Baghdad.

[BILLY D.]

val

we been training foreign pilots for as long as i can remember. going back to the middle 60's i can remember jordanian, saudi, israeli and iranian pilots being trained here.

if israel decides to start a party i don't think they will invite the u.s. our fighting styles, military tactics are totally different. the israeli forces go in break things, kill people and get the hell out.

they don't kiss the foes a$$ and worry about repatriation, rebuilding and setting up NEW governments like we do. one of our greatest errors in vietnam was trying to tweak the politics. and as far as trying to get religions to mix and intermingle, well forget it. ain't gonna happen.

the goal of the muslim world is just like that of the former communist regimes, world domination. the quicker people realize that the better of they will be. bush's stance on this matter totally disappointed me.

i wonder how much dirty money from the nfl and nba is donated to mosques in the U.S. and is supporting terrorism in the middle east. i'll bet a dollar to a dime nobody has even thought of or would think of investigating that matter for fear of hurting someones fellings. well boo, hoo, hoo.

the united states and israel look at war in two different philosophies. i have had many arguments with my brothers over this matter as i have family living in israel. we have had some long heated debates about a war and wars in general. they do not forsee losing. it is not a cloud in their future.

i visited israel a few years ago and felt much the same way as i did in vietnam. as long as i was on army post or an air base i felt pretty secure but when i had to leave that protective ring the hair on the back of my neck and on my forearms stood up. these are resolved people who will fight to the death if need be. they have only been at it for a few thousand years now, so they know how to do it. their military is totally dedicated, and their women in the military are as mean as post menstural rattlesnakes. i value my life and i wouldn't miss with one. but they still know how to be female and a lady. a truely marvelous transformation.

so to get down to the nitty gritty, the united states should let israel handle it's own affairs, give aid when asked and keep it's mouth shut the rest of the time. israel is not abundant in resources, ie: military equipment etc. so what ever they need we should furnish. contrary to popular belief all jews are not rich. this one sure as he(( ain't. but i am jewish by blood, not by religion. i'm even worse, i'm a mackerel snapper.

israel's only down fall would be if they had to fight two different muslim countries at one time. that would stretch them pretty thin. but i also believe they are intelligent enough to not let that happen. they will grind down one country at a time if war does break out. israel thinks strategically, (long term) vs tactically (short term). even though their strategic thinking will cause a short term war. look at the seven day war as an example.

israel has one staunch supporter...me. i root for them in all their endeavors. but i have a vested interest. family.

back to the original question; do i think israel will be our back door to the middle east. no. the door is already wide open. we can barely handle iraq. it's a 50/50 for support by the american people. maybe. with cindy sh*%can and jane fonda and murtha types spewing forth their garbage we wouldn't stand a chance.

gee, what a great way to start the day. i gotta go find my pepcid.

p.s. for those of you who don't know, the jpfo at the bottom of my signature means JEWS FOR THE PRESERVATION OF FIREARMS OWNERSHIP. REMEMBER BACK IN THE 30'S WHEN GOOD OLD ADOLPH CONFISCATED ALL THE GUNS UNDER THE GUISE OF (SAFETY)? SURE MADE IT A LOT EASIER FOR HIS BOYS TO ROUND UP ALL THE JEWS.

[Hawkeye6]

Originally posted by Valigator
I think I made mention here a while ago, that one of the guys I communicate is a pilot out west. He told me that he was training Israeli pilots and that Israel would be our front door into war in the Middle East......what do you think????:confused:

Val:

News Flash! We already are in a war inthe Middle East. See Afghanistan and Iraq.

H.

[Skinny Shooter]

Here's some info on Israel and Palestine: http://www.eretzyisroel.org/~jkatz/
http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#Geography%20and%20Early%20History

Go Israel!

[Hawkeye6]

PJ:

The neutron bomb was actually a very "clean" bomb as oppesed to a "dirty" bomb. It was designed to release a strong burst of neutrons (in the form of radiation) which would kill organic life, but it was designed to have very little blast effect which would destroy property and very little fallout and secondary radiation which owuldcontaminate property. It never went beyond the design stage and, perhaps never even got to the design stage. It was never oeprational.

Actually you would never have had a "big" neutron bomb. In order to have the killing power without the blast and vaporization which would result in fallout, they would have had to remained realtively small bombs.

[Hawkeye6]

Originally posted by Valigator
I think I made mention here a while ago, that one of the guys I communicate is a pilot out west. He told me that he was training Israeli pilots and that Israel would be our front door into war in the Middle East......what do you think????:confused:

Val:

News Flash! We already are in a war inthe Middle East. See Afghanistan and Iraq.

H.

[fabsroman]

Skinny,

Did you actually read all the articles. The one I read said that neither side is to blame for this decades old war, so how can we sit here and say go "Israel".

According to the article I read, we sided with Israel and were indifferent to its settlement advances in the 80's because the Russians had sided with the Arabs and we HAD to oppose anything that Russia was for. Kind of like opposing communism in Vietnam. See where that got us. I have no idea what the war in Korea was for, but something tells me we were opposing communism there too. See where that got us. So, we sided with one country who was neither right nor wrong, and now were are pissed at the muslim countries for hating us when they have every right to do so. Keep an open mind with me here. If the roles were reversed, and Mexico actually had some back bone and strength, and they were backed by the gazillions of dollars that the muslim countries have, and they rolled into Texas, New Mexico, and California and took them all back with bloodshed, I seriously doubt you and I would be applauding the muslim states for helping Mexico out.

Simply put, I would like to see peace in the Middle East, and if that means letting these idiots continue to fight until there is one clear winner, so be it. Let's just get the hell out of there and let them finish it up. I was all for the war on terror initially, but this war on terror is getting a little out of hand. Instead of targeting terror cells, we are targeting entire countries and governments. What makes us think that we can take over these countries, install puppet governments, and everything will be okay. If we want to take them over, lets take them over and make them a state. Oh, but that would piss of the rest of the world.

Billy,

Just as you have family in Israel, I am sure that plenty of US citizens also have family in the muslim states.

As far as the comment regarding the Jews and their ability to fight, lets not forget that the Arabs have been fighting just as long and just as hard. They were able to beat back the Crusaders, but then again, those weren't Jews.

I don't have anything against Jews or Muslims, I just want us to get out of the Middle East, become self sufficient in regards to oil, and let those guys go at it. What do we need out of the Middle East other than oil? Do we have a sand shortage that I do not know about? Does Israel have something to offer us that we actually need? Is this going to be another Vietnam or Korea just because we have to support Israel?

I am not against war, and wars need to be fought, and since the war on terrorism there hasn't been any terrorist attacks, but at the end of all this we will be trying to hold all the muslim countries accountable for terrorism and God help us if China gets involved or they get more pissed off at us for our actions in the Middle East. They were pissed initially over the oil issue. Sometimes, wars are started not for land, but for economic resources, and we have a lot of black gold in the Middle East and China needs a lot of it, as do we.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

saddam hussein was the guy all in the middle east was afraid of and I feel as long as he was around it kind of kept things in some sort of check over there. You can see how things got out of hand once he was gone...Now I am not saying it was right to do to the people some of the things he has done but the fear of the crazy man had to have helped. I mean we are there trying to tell those people how to live and look at how things are getting here. We have killings every day..do we have crooked politics? As I stand back and look at the whole picture it is kind of like living in a glass house and tossing stones. Oh I love this country and took an oath years ago to defend it and never took another one that said I would not....didn't we have a civil war?...why can't other countries have them?..I agree that we should just leave them all to themselves and let them sort it out till there is one winner..then can deal with that problem. Now that we did not just kick the poo out of them for the 911 thing and tell anyone else that if they mess with us they will be next and they best police their own ranks it is too late now to solve the issue...without stepping on somenes toes...or burning any bridges...war without and weakness within...the fall of every great empire..we gotta get our heads in the right places...we have oil here in alaska but some tree hugger says no drilling..daaa...we wouldn't have to kiss so much butt elsewhere to get it..if we are going to step in with the military...well do the job and get out like WWII etc.....other wise stay on the porch. Who ever heard of a soldier in a war getting hung for murder from killing the enemy...time to let them sort it out themselves...and since the beginning of time..they have been trying to do so....it won't end till the big bang. We are just lucky to keep it over there and out of this country..that is one smart thing our gov has done.

[fabsroman]

Looks as though things are going pretty badly in Beirut. Israel has knocked out several bridges and they are threatening Syria. Meanwhile, Iran is warning Israel that an attack against Syria will be the equivalent of an attack against the entire muslim nation. Currently, 55 Lebanese civilians have been killed by the Israelis.

While we side with Israel, the European Union and Russia do not. Not good.

Here is an excerpt from Yahoo.

In Tehran, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel not to attack Syria, saying such action would be considered an assault on the whole Islamic world that would bring a "fierce response," state television reported.

BUSH VOICES CONCERN

President Bush, on a visit to Germany, voiced concern about the fate of Lebanon's anti-Syrian government, but offered no direct criticism of the punishment Israel meted out.

"Israel has the right to defend herself," he said.

U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, also speaking in Germany, urged Israel to exercise restraint but demanded that Syria put pressure on Hizbollah to stop the attacks on Israel.

Syria's ambassador to the United States urged Washington to restrain its ally Israel and push for the resumption of peace talks amid escalating Middle East violence.

The European Union and Russia criticized Israel's strikes in Lebanon as a dangerous escalation of the Middle East conflict.

Lebanon urged the U.N. Security Council on Thursday to adopt a resolution demanding a ceasefire and end to Israeli attacks, rejecting Israel's insistence it was acting in self defense.

The Security Council was to meet later on Friday but the United States has already vetoed a council resolution put forward by Qatar on behalf of Arab states that called on Israel to immediately end its military incursion in Gaza.

With stocks down, currency pressure up and trade and tourism virtually still, ratings agency Standard & Poor's warned that it might downgrade Lebanon's debt ratings amid escalating violence.

Israel has rejected Hizbollah demands that it release Arab prisoners in exchange for the captive soldiers but says it fears they could be spirited to Iran. Iran dismissed such fears.

[BILLY D.]

Originally posted by fabsroman
Skinny,

Did you actually read all the articles. The one I read said that neither side is to blame for this decades old war, so how can we sit here and say go "Israel".

According to the article I read, we sided with Israel and were indifferent to its settlement advances in the 80's because the Russians had sided with the Arabs and we HAD to oppose anything that Russia was for. Kind of like opposing communism in Vietnam. See where that got us. I have no idea what the war in Korea was for, but something tells me we were opposing communism there too. See where that got us. So, we sided with one country who was neither right nor wrong, and now were are pissed at the muslim countries for hating us when they have every right to do so. Keep an open mind with me here. If the roles were reversed, and Mexico actually had some back bone and strength, and they were backed by the gazillions of dollars that the muslim countries have, and they rolled into Texas, New Mexico, and California and took them all back with bloodshed, I seriously doubt you and I would be applauding the muslim states for helping Mexico out.

Simply put, I would like to see peace in the Middle East, and if that means letting these idiots continue to fight until there is one clear winner, so be it. Let's just get the hell out of there and let them finish it up. I was all for the war on terror initially, but this war on terror is getting a little out of hand. Instead of targeting terror cells, we are targeting entire countries and governments. What makes us think that we can take over these countries, install puppet governments, and everything will be okay. If we want to take them over, lets take them over and make them a state. Oh, but that would piss of the rest of the world.

Billy,

Just as you have family in Israel, I am sure that plenty of US citizens also have family in the muslim states.

As far as the comment regarding the Jews and their ability to fight, lets not forget that the Arabs have been fighting just as long and just as hard. They were able to beat back the Crusaders, but then again, those weren't Jews.

I don't have anything against Jews or Muslims, I just want us to get out of the Middle East, become self sufficient in regards to oil, and let those guys go at it. What do we need out of the Middle East other than oil? Do we have a sand shortage that I do not know about? Does Israel have something to offer us that we actually need? Is this going to be another Vietnam or Korea just because we have to support Israel?

I am not against war, and wars need to be fought, and since the war on terrorism there hasn't been any terrorist attacks, but at the end of all this we will be trying to hold all the muslim countries accountable for terrorism and God help us if China gets involved or they get more pissed off at us for our actions in the Middle East. They were pissed initially over the oil issue. Sometimes, wars are started not for land, but for economic resources, and we have a lot of black gold in the Middle East and China needs a lot of it, as do we.

i am flabbergasted.

[Montana Cowboy]

Evening All
I may be all wrong here in my thinking but feel free to straighten me out. War is a necessary evil in many ways. One it keeps the population in check. When a war is going on it creates jobs, ya have to support the war effort, and that means troops have to be transported, food to feed them, medical care for the wounded, clothing for the troops, munitions of all sorts, fuel, maintain all the equipment etc etc. I think you get the picture that somebody is making lots of money.

In the 60's and 70's population control was a big issue and it seemed like a week couldn't go by without hearing or reading about how rapidly the population was increasing and if we didn't do something about it we would self distruct. Wars have a nasty way of taking care of populations, I don't like it, but it's a fact.

Well I hope things get settled over there without another war. They have been going at it for hundreds of years and the only thing that has changed is the weapons have gotten more sophisticated. MC

[Valigator]

Hawkeye6,

NEWSFLASH, you know exactly what I meant....

[fabsroman]

Bad in the middle ages, war was a good form of birth control, but as weapons systems have advanced from the trebuchet to the nuclear missle, so have birth control methods. Hopefully, the population issue could be solved short of war because I would hate to have to give up my life for the sake of reducing the population. I think most people would feel that way.

Billy,

Hope you are only flabergasted and not pissed off. At first I was all for this war against terror, but this September it will have been five years since 9/11 and we are still at war and the wars are probably going to get a lot harder than Afghanistan and Iraq. We might actually have to fight Iran, and something tells me that we will not roll over Iran easily. What happens if China and Russia get into the fray too? Yeah, we are a big country with a lot of technology, but my buddy that flies F-18's told me that after Afghanistan they didn't have any bombs to go against Iraq right away if they had to. Kind of crazy if you ask me.

[fabsroman]

Here is another article:

"RAFAH, Gaza Strip - Militants forced open a border gate between Egypt and Gaza on Friday, wounding an Egyptian officer and letting hundreds of Palestinians who had been trapped on the Egyptian side of the border to get into Gaza.

Armed militants stood by as people carrying suitcases crossed into Gaza. Some walked through on crutches while others walked or ran through the gate.

Egyptian police Capt. Mohammed Abdel Hadi said masked Palestinian militants firing guns broke into the Egyptian side of the Rafah border crossing, clearing the way for the trapped Gazans.

One Egyptian border policeman was wounded when the militants stormed the frontier, said Abdel Hadi, who heads police on the Egyptian side of Rafah.

The crossing, Gaza's main gateway to the outside world, has largely been closed since June 25, when Palestinian militants carried out a raid on a military outpost, killing two Israeli soldiers and capturing one.

Hundreds of people have been stranded on the Egyptian side, unable to get to their homes in Gaza.

Rafah's closure left hundreds of Palestinians who work and study in Egypt stranded, while preventing hundreds of others from leaving the coastal area to receive medical treatment abroad.

Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza ."

Yea Israel. Over 60 dead palestinian civilians because of a soldier that was captured. Why can't the US go around shooting civilians when its soldiers are captured? Didn't we have an issue like this just recently where one of our soldiers was captured in the same manner as the Israeli soldier?

[Skinny Shooter]

Fabs, you have so many points to rebut I don't have the time or energy to do it at the moment.

This one I will though:

"Last week, a 26-year-old Palestinian woman suffering from cancer died at the border while waiting to be allowed into Gaza ."

Why did you add that in bold type. Do you think allowing her into Gaza would have kept her alive? It appears that her cancer was terminal, period. Next thing you know, Cindy Sheehan is going to blame Bush for her cancer... :rolleyes:

I continue to find it amazing that the dictators and terrorists of this world consistently get mollycoddled and the good guys get villified when they fight back and make a few mistakes along the way. My heart doesn't bleed for the bad guys.
As GW said, the WOT is going to last a long time.
Unfortunately the "drive-thru" generation just has to have it done and over with right now and not take a second longer.

Go Israel.
Kick a$$ and take names.

[BILLY D.]

fabs

i am a bit ticked, but i am more disappointed. i can not believe you have your cranium soooo deeply inserted up your rectum on this matter.

i'm done.

[PJgunner]

Billy. Way too many people are in that position, IE, their heads in warm dark places. :(
JMHO, but there is no such thing as a peaceful Muslim, PERIOD! They have no tolerance for any other eligion. You are either Muslim or off with your head.
Many years ago, there were a series of wars call The Crusades. Guess what people. We are in another "crusade", only the idiots running this country are either too damn blind or too damn stupid to see it. I believe it is the latter. The want to fight a politically correct war, and only losers fight politically correct wars. That goes for all the other non-Muslin countries as well. The Muslims perceive us as weak, and dammit, maybe we are. The only real answer is drive them all back into the stone age. Give each and every one his 72 virgins via 10 megaton trip tickets.
Muslims believe that it is no sin to lie to an unbeliever. Peaceful Muslims my aching hemmerhoids!
Paul B.

[fabsroman]

The bold is to show that not only soldiers are being affected by all this crap. Innocent people, terminally ill civilians, that want to die in the comfort of their own home with their family are stuck in the middle. I always try to put myself in the other person's shoes. Does it suck to be a soldier and get killed, yeah, but you at least know your life is on the line because that is your job. Does it really suck to be a civilian and find out that there is a 500 lb bomb on your head. Yeah. If civilian casualties aren't a big thing, how about trying to work out an agreement with Europe, Russia, and China where we develop the neutron bomb, make it in mass quantity, and tell these people to either behave or we will wipe all of them out. I don't care how this ends, I just want it to end. If civilians on one side need to die, then lets kill them all.

I am willing to bet that there isn't one arab or muslim that frequents this board, because I am pretty sure that person wouldn't be reading this thread and thinking GO ISRAEL. If we are going to kill one side, lets kill both sides. Why are the muslims more to blame for what is going on than the Israelis? Please, somebody justify this to me. One of the partners that worked at the last law firm with me taught English in Saudi Arabia before she went to law school. She is about 55 now. Her take on this whole matter was that the muslims had good reasons for disliking Israel and the US. Again, open your thinking caps, be open minded, and try to put yourself in an arab's shoes. Try to put yourself in the shoes of an arab civilian in Beirut.

We have had this argument before. It is always easy to say that we are the good guys and our allies are the good guys and what we and our allies do should not be questioned.

How long did it take to win World War II once we got in there? Pearl Harbor was bombed on 12/7/1941 and the Japanese surrendered in September 1945. Last I checked, it took us less time to beat the Germans, Japanese, and Italians, not that the Italians were much of a fighting force, than it has taken us to end this war on terror. Granted, we lost 400,000+ Americans in that war.

The fight on terror has taken over 4 years at this point. Yeah, it will be long, and yeah I was originally in support of it, but I am also no idiot. Just because I support something initially doesn't mean I cannot change my mind later on as circumstances change. I doubt most people would have thought Israel was going to do this when we started the war on terror.

Now, regarding the Lebanon issue, how do we justify what Israel is doing? Again, lets assume that Mexico had some strength and backbone. Say that some American vigilantes hated Mexico and went in there and killed two soldiers and kidnapped a third. Would it be okay for Mexico to come into the US and bomb our airport, siege a city, and kill 60 US civilians. NO, because that would be happening to us. Is it okay for the US to supply Israel with weapons that kill arabs and then expect the arabs not to hate us. How would you feel if you brother, actual brother, were gun down, but you killed the Israeli that gunned your brother down, took his rifle, and found "Made in the USA" on it?

We just have blinders on. Some of you are old enough to kind of know what the issue is between Israel and Palestine and the rest of the arab nations. Me, I just remember this thing going on as long as I have been alive. WHAT ARE THESE TWO COUNTRIES FIGHTING OVER? Somebody please enlighten me. What was it initially about? Was it land? Was it religion?

Let's either come up with some game plan to end it like we ended the war with Japan (i.e., send everybody back to the stone age) or get the hell out of there. The longer this war against "terrorism" goes on the easier it will get to be a Vietnam and/or Korea. What will happen at the next Presidential election if a Democrat is elected? We will probably pull out and look like chickens. Get the job done and lets move on.

Now, I need to put my headache toward trying to figure out which bicycle frame I am going to purchase.

[fabsroman]

PJ, you snuck a post in there before I hit the submit button. Did the muslim start the Crusades, or was that the Christians trying to take back the "Holy Land" and convert the muslims to christianity. How about the Spanish conquistadors that destroyed entire Indian populations in South America. I think they were trying to convert the natives to Christianity too.

How about the muslims in the United States? Are they all terrible people too? Somehow, I think we are categorizing muslims in general based upon the acts of just a few. Kind of like we categorized the Japanese in the United States after the attack on Pearl Harbor. We have some narrow minded people on this board.

This is why the country cannot get along and why it is so divided. Each side, liberal and conservative is so far to one side it is insane. Logic would require us to meet in the middle, but we are so scared to compromise on a single thing for fear that more will be taken away. Kind of like the NRA not wishing to compromise on gun control.

[Montana Cowboy]

Hey Fabsroman
I was just making a point about population control and how war controls it. Take a look at all the third world countries that have huge populations and their governments could care less about birth control cause they don't care about their people to begin with.
I wouldn't want to give my life up either as a population control method but war is one of the tools that third world leaders use as they don't give a rats ass about their citizens.
OK lets get this back on track. The Middle East situation is a mess. Those diaper heads will be at each others throats 100 years from now.
Hope all you folks have a nice weekend. MC

[Valigator]

I dont think population control is an issue. With todays technology in the weapons arena....its a moot point.

[shooterjon]

M.T. Pockets
If governments and Religion don't mix the whole Middle East Muslim thing must be a tragedy!