Who is in favor of Israel's actions? [Archive]

fabsroman

07-14-2006, 07:55 PM

Rocky,

I haven't heard of many terrorists getting whacked by the Israelis, but I have heard that 76 civilians have been killed. If we had that kind of kill ratio in Iraq, heads would be roling and the world would really be pissed at us. I wonder is Israel is going to help Lebanon rebuild after they get all these terrorists. Kind of like the US helped Iraq rebuild and get things somewhat back to order, or is Israel going to pound Lebanon back to the stone age and leave them there, creating more ill will between the two countries.

I think the whole situation is getting worse every day. Not only do we have fighting in the Middle East that was unpredicted, but we have rising oil prices. Oil went over $78 a barrel today. The stock market took a beating too, so the rick are worried about this war. Lord knows what will happen over the weekend and how the stock markets will react. China and Japan are experiencing some of the same economic issues that we have here. They have economies that are threatened with severe inflation. Japan's government just raised the interest rate from a 0.00% rate for the first time in a couple of years because it fears inflation. China's economy is on fire and they are fearing inflation. What will a huge increase in the price of oil do to the world economy, besides having people on here cheering "Go Israel" and then crying about the gas price that they have to pay at the pump. One good thing happening in America is that house prices are coming down, but that is only good if you weren't one of the people that bought a house that you could barely afford under an ARM, and now you might get foreclosed on because the interest rates are going up (i.e., your house payments are to expensive) and the price of gas is going up (i.e., you just cannot afford to live).

Personally, I think we are in for some seriously tough times, and some of the economists have predicted that there might be out right disaster and armagedon in the US because of gas prices. Hopefully, when gas prices get high enough people will buy the Honda Insight or Toyota Prius, both of which get 60+ miles to the gallon on the highway and close to or above 60 miles to the gallon in the city.

As far as what is happening in Israel and Lebanon, Billy is pretty much spot on. From what I am reading, it appears that the Israelis are targeting specific infrastructure. For instance, they lew up an oil tank at a refinery, but they didn't touch the actual refinery. They totally demolished the cheaper bridges, but only punched a hole in a big expansion bridge that is one of the costly bridges. At the airport, they have only been targeting the runway. They have also blown up an apartment building. The UN says that Israel is breaking international law by cutting Beirut off from the rest of the world. The UN also said that Sadam was violating international law by creating weapons of mass destruction and the US went in and took out the entire government under that premonition. Funny how we pick and choose what we want to hear and/or agree with.

In trying to nip it in the bud, the Israelis might be pushing a little too much. I am sure a lot of arabs are already pissed off that we are in the Middle East. I think Israel taking it to them on another front might just get those arabs sitting on the sidelines to turn against the US and Israel. Weren't the Crusaders overwhelmed by the uniting of the arab tribes? Time will tell how this all unfolds. Hopefully, it will be over by this weekend. What I do not understand is if the vast majority of the Lebanese do not support the Hezbollah, why didn't the Lebanese goverment try to get rid of the Hezbollah? Plus, if so many of the Lebanese people are anti Hezbollah, why aren't they turning them in to avoid this conflict with Israel. Could the Hezbollah actually hied from 90% of the population or is Israel's intelligence just terrible at gathering information?

Rocky Raab

07-14-2006, 08:50 PM

Fabs, you've heard of 76 "alleged" civilians killed - as reported by the far left commie Jane Fonda media.

Know any terrorists with uniforms?

TreeDoc

07-14-2006, 11:13 PM

Originally posted by Rocky Raab
Fabs, you've heard of 76 "alleged" civilians killed - as reported by the far left commie Jane Fonda media.

Know any terrorists with uniforms?

Amen, Rocky! As long as it's against the Israelis, it's OK by the media!
:rolleyes:

gumpokc

07-14-2006, 11:19 PM

I voted that i agreed, but.....i can't say totally.

It would take far too long to explain my views, and in all honesty most people would consider my views harsh, if not outright brutal.

You _NEVER_ negotiate with terrorists/kidnappers/hostage takers.

Israel screwed up years ago by releasing prisoners for the return of their troops. I think the last time was 4-5 years ago, and the trade was like 200 some odd prisoners for 3-5 troops, i do not remember the exact numbers.

By caving into the hostage takers, they ensured it would happen, and continue to happen over and over again.

Terrorists/hostages/kidnappers are rabid animals who deserve nothing more than to be putdown.

There is no rehabilitating them, no treatment, and no use even giving in to them, since they _WILL_ do it again.

Those are my basic views, most people nowdays simply are not capabile of agreeing with them.
All you really have to do though is open your history books and do some reading, a person can actually learn alot by doing that.

jon lynn

07-15-2006, 02:22 AM

We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat.

Israel did what they had to do, I fully support their actions. I do really wish their aim was true in shooting, and could cut down on the non-combatants being killed or injured.

I have read endless books, and watch every documentary over Israel I can. They fought for each and every square inch of that country. I do admit at times they were less than tolerant of some of their arabic neibours, but they live under the constant open threats of muslem nations around them, wishing to wipe them out, for no other reason than the fact they are a Jewish nation. Whom they do not recognize, and still call Israel, Palistine.

Remember when things were going 'kind of good'? And the Israeli Minister went to visit a Mosque, all hell broke loose, and violence spread all through out the country, and suicide bombings went on........................so much for the tolerance of the other side.

And on the Issue of the Palistinians, check on the history of the region, pre-Israel, the arabs who controlled the zones didn't treat the Palistinians like people, the Israelis allow them to apply for Israeli citizenship.

But back to the present, I think Israel will make a huge mistake if they trade a few solders for dozens of terrorist. I hope they don't trade at all. If Hezbollah tries to take them to Iran, they are just asking to get pulverized. I just wonder is Iran stupid enough to back Hezbollah openly, after years of denying it.

But this could get worse, and the US would have no other option, than to help Israel is some way, shape or form. Because IMHO if Israel ever thought they would really and truly lose their country or Jeuresulem, I think they would nuke it them selves, to keep it from falling to the long time enemys.

(as usual please forgive my lousy spelling..........my spell check is in German)

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 02:41 AM

Gumpokc,

I agree completely that terrorists should be killed, but not everybody in the entire nation that the terrorist happens to be in. Heck, we have terrorists right in the US right now, but I don't see us bombing our own cities. I guess it is just plain easier for Israel to bomb the heck out of Beirut, and even if the 76 alleged dead are only that, I am pretty sure that everybody within the city is pretty much stuck there. I wouldn't want to be in that situation either. It is kind of tough for any of us to understand what it is like to be stuck in our own city, but the best analogy I can give is the US right after 9/11 when nobody could fly anywhere. Granted, we could still get in a car and leave, which I did. I went from downtown Baltimore, where I happened to be working, straight to DC, where my parents live and where my sister and father were in the downtown part of when all the stuff was happening. My sister worked right next to the Pentagon and when I got through to her she thought we were being bombed and she was worried for my dad who was also downtown that morning. It is a sick feeling.

If you lined up all the terrorists in the world, and the powers that be told me they were 100% sure these guys were terrrorists, I would have no problem mowing them all down. However, if you lined up 100 people, and told me that 99 of them were terrorists but 1 was probably innocent, I would have a much tougher time killing all of them. Now, throw in the fact that killing them might have global repercussions like starting a war and risking world economies, then it would also be extremely hard.

Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture.

For instance, I went to the Outer Banks last week and you would be surprised by the number of young polish people with accents that were working there at the stores and bars. However, they were probably legal aliens, or at least I hope they were. Now, if Americans are so hard up for jobs, why are polish immigrants working as cashiers and bartenders in the Outer Banks? Why is it that these jobs are not filled by American citizens?

Yes, Go Israel, kill all the terrorists. I have no problem with that, but I also think it should be couched with Go Israel, kill all the terrorists, but make sure you follow international law, or you are no better than the terrorists. Go Israel, kill all the terrorists but make sure you limit civilian casualties and damage to civilian infrastructure.

I have no problem with Israel killing all the terrorists, but I do have a problem with the way they are going about it. We could wipe out most of the terrorists in the world, or severely hamper their infrastruture if we nuked all of the Middle East, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. If we send the entire Middle East back to prehistoric times, it would be a lot harder for the terrorists to cause any trouble, but I don't see us doing that either. Why, because it is probably wrong.

Now, who is to say that Israel itself is not a terrorist. Just because it uses tanks, warships, and airplanes to carry out its message (i.e., don't mess with us or we will visit a world of hate on your entire nation), doesn't mean that it isn't a terrorist. Terrorist target civilian buildings and civilians to cause terror in their enemies. Well, Israel is doing just that. Now, I have nothing against targeting a civilian building if you know that a terrorist is in it, but targeting an entire city and cutting it off from the outside world because you know terrorists are in it, I have a problem with that. And where do you draw the line. If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. Let's say a terrorist is in a civilian building such as the World Trade Center over in Lebanon. I know there is no such thing, but use your imagination. Would it be okay to kill 3,000+ civilians to get this terrorist or is that too much collateral damage? That should be my next pole. Is it okay to kill 3,000 innocent, and I mean innocent, arab civilians to get Osama Bin Laden? Not all arabs are terrorists. Heck, I believe the majority are peaceful people.

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 02:51 AM

Jon,

"We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat."

It is easy to say that because attacking Mexico is easy. There are no repercussions because Mexico is weak and there is little possibility of causing World War III. However, would you attack Mexico if one of its citizens happened to kill one of our border guards and it wasn't an act sanctioned by Mexico. Would you actually bomb Mexico City and cut it off from the rest of the world in search of those soldiers? How long would you keep the city under siege? 100's of thousands of innocents, maybe millions, will suffer because of the acts of a limited few that just happen to be citizens of their country. Acts that are not backed by the country itself.

I ask a lot of questions in all of my replies, but nobody actually gives me straight up answers to them in reply.

Would you go against Mexico if it was stronger and going against it would mean additional casualties for the US? How many additional US casualties would you be willing to stomach to recover a single border guard?

Rocky Raab

07-15-2006, 09:17 AM

Sorry, Fabs. Every one of your questions would require a treatise to answer.

A favorite tactic of the terrorists is to strike, and then hide among civilians. They locate their headquarters next to schools, hospitals or mosques (or IN mosques) specifically to either deter any return strike at all, or to wail about civilian casualties if they are hit. They're to blame if civilians get hit.

The issue is not with the citizens of innocent countries in which they hide (I'll give those countries the benefit of doubt whether they're actually welcoming the terrorists.) But if those countries don't act to expel terrorists, they are as much to blame as the terrorists for civilian deaths.

But the Israelis are not.

(oh BTW, Israeli fighter pilots are the best in the world. Bar none, even our own. Really. Their air-ground misses can be measured in feet, and not a single one has ever been shot down in an air-to-air engagement. Zero.)

gumpokc

07-15-2006, 02:46 PM

I'm solidly with Rocky on this.

A populace has no direct control over terrorists, however, if they do not take matters into their own hands to expel, or eradicate those same terrorists, then they are giving them support, if only by indirect means, by allowing them cover and concealment.

QUOTE Almost everything on this board is always so black and white for people: "Go Israel" "Close of the Borders" "Deport all Illegal Aliens" "Kill Everybdoy Convicted of Rape and Murder". Nobody sits down to think about the bigger picture. ENDQUOTE

It is a very black and white issue, the only shades of gray are cast by those who overcomplicate the issue, or by the supporters of the terrorists themselves, using those issues to confuse those who act against them.

QUOTE . If a single terrorist is in a building, what is the acceptable collateral damage for civilians. ENDQUOTE

Thats funny, I was going to ask you the same thing.
Hw many people are you condemming to death, rape, torture, destroyed families by not dealing decisively in the first place?
How many years/decades/centuries will your populace pay the price for the ones before them who could not do what needed to be done.

It's like cancer or gangrene, just how much of either are you willing to accept living with?

Sometimes choices _MUST_ be made that for sentimental or emotional reasons are very difficult. Logically there is no problem with what must be done, but people cloud the issues with nonessential BS.

Lets go back to the cancer/gangrene example.

Little Billy's arm has gangrene, to effectively treat it, it must be amputated far enough above the infection so that it does not travel further. There is no question what must be done. Yes it's sad, it will cause alot of pain, an some suffering, but the alternative is much worse.

They could say " oh well lets just take a little and see if that stops it" , then a little more, then some more, then some more, until it finally got into his bloodstream and killed him.

Sure they saved him from havign the amutation all at once,but how many times did they put him and his family throug the same emotional wringer? how much more did this cost, in scaring,money, both physical and emotional pain?

Now which would have been the better choice from the start?

If you cannot make the tough decisions for yourself, don't question the people who can _when you don't know the full story/reasons behinds their decisions_!

Rocky Raab

07-15-2006, 03:55 PM

Not only that, but flip the scenario and ask this:

If a terrorist is in an AIRLINER, what is the acceptable collateral damage to civilians HE CAUSES?

Their aim is clear, voiced and attested to by their own leaders: eradicate all "nonbelievers". That includes not just Israel and the US, but all non Islamists even other sects of Islam. In short, most of the human race.

They're making it black and white for us, I'd say.

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 05:05 PM

I think I have asked this question before, but does anybody know why this hatred between the arabs and the Israelis started? I am trying to figure out who is to blame for this entire mess. That way, we can nuke that side and get rid of the gangrene. We have to do what we have to do. Wonder how the world would react to some tactical nukes in the Middle East.

Another thing that I noticed is that the initial attacks this time were against actual Israeli soldiers. As far as I am concerned, that is a step up for the "terrorists." I bet they call themselves freedom fighters over there. I really want to know why this all started so I can understand a little more about the arabs/muslims ways. For instance, is it okay that they are fighting the way they are because they are in the right and they do not have somebody backing them with high tech weaponry and education? When cornered, you have to do whatever you can to get out of it. For instance, I think of myself as a good guy, but if anarchy were to hit the US, my family was starving or dehydrated, somebody else had food and water but no firearm, and I had the gun, you can bet that the person would be giving up the food and water and/or his life before my family would die. Yet, I hold doors open for people. I am as polite as can be, etc. So, I would love to know why this fight has been going on for so long.

As far as Israeli pilots be the best there is, how many wars have they been in. Last I checked, they weren't in World War II where a lot of planes got shot down. Please don't tell me that their pilots could have been involved in that war and not been shot down at least once. How about Korea or Vietnam. Were they involved in that? How many planes did we lose in Desert Storm or the current war on terrorism? My buddy that flies F-18's said that there was nothing that Afghanistan had that could knock down a plane flying at 15,000 feet or higher. What type of technology do the Israelis fly against. Is it Russian made stuff thrown at them by skilled operators? Does anybody know the answer.

I ask a lot of questions because I like to know exactly what is going on. I did the exact same thing with the wolves thread and ended up changing my mind slightly. Knowledge is power, and following along with blinders on is sheer stupidity.

I guess I would like to start with understanding how this entire mess started. That will get me started. of course, the in-laws are currently driving up from Florida (i.e., spent the entire morning and most of the afternoon cleaning the entire house and going to the dump), but I'll try to do a little research in the meantime.

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 05:16 PM

Oh, forgot to answer some of the other questions posed to me. If a plane is full of people and there is a terrorist in control of it, after what happened on 9/11 we pretty much know that those people are already dead, so it is a no brainer to shoot that plane down. Not shooting it down would result in the deaths of the people on the plane along with more casualties from whichever building the bastard flew into. Kind of like cutting poor Billy's arm off.

As far as it being a black and white issue, it isn't unless you know all there is to know and can tell me how everything will effect the world. Something tells me that you do not have those answers. My portfolio has taken a hit to the tune of several thousands of dollars because of this mess. I'll not complain about it if the whole thing is resolved and there is piece in the middle east. Heck, I would be willing to give tens of thousands of dollars to establish a lasting peace in the middle east, but I can afford it. What happens when markets plummet and people's retirement is affected? What happens when gas prices soar and people have to take losses on their SUV's to buy something more economical? Will the rising gas prices cause further inflation, resulting in further increases on the Fed's interest rate resulting in more people not being able to make their mortgage payment and being foreclosed on? I don't have the answers either, but I at least know that there are more issues than just "Go Israel" and "Kill all the terrorists no matter the cost." The world is not a simple place anymore.

A lot of US citizens don't agree 100% with what Bush does, so when he screws up should that be thrown at those people too. I am sure that a lot of these terrorists/militants/freedom fighters are in this thing because of the decades long hatred toward Israel. They were born into this thing, kind of like I was born into the issues in the Middle East.

I agree that all terrorists should be eliminated that intentionally target civilians. However, I have no problem with sneak attacks performed by these terrorists against soldiers. In a lot of warfare, deceit and treachery wins the day. Can you honestly expect these arabs to go toe to toe with Israel. Maybe if the arabs had the technology, this would be more of a stalemate than it currently is because Israel would think twice about moving into arab countries. Then again, it might just be all out war.

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 05:22 PM

Okay, it looks like the arabs are the bad guys from the beginning.

"A day after the declaration of independence of the State of Israel, armies of five Arab countries, Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon and Iraq, invaded Israel. This marked the beginning of the War of Independence. Arab states have jointly waged four full scale wars against Israel:

1948 War of Independence
1956 Sinai War
1967 Six Day War
1973 Yom Kippur War
Despite the numerical superiority of the Arab armies, Israel defended itself each time and won. After each war Israeli army withdrew from most of the areas it captured (see maps). This is unprecedented in World history and shows Israel's willingness to reach peace even at the risk of fighting for its very existence each time anew.

Note that with Judea and Samaria Israel is only 40 miles wide. Thus, Israel can be crossed from the Mediterranean coast to the Eastern border at Jordan river within one hour of driving."

Rocky Raab

07-15-2006, 06:29 PM

Fabs, just to completely factual, in the Six-Day War, Israel lost half or more of its planes - but all of them to ground fire. AAA and new Russian-supplied SA-6 missile batteries (a VERY scary missile!) just about wiped them out along the Egyptian border.

So they've lost planes and pilots in combat. But none have ever been shot down by an enemy fighter. In the Bakaa Valley, I think the ratio of kills was something like Syria 0, Israel 248.

For the record, their incredible air-to-air skills were achieved largely (though not completely) in the US-supplied F-15 Eagle. And just to add to the stats, no F-15 Eagle flown by either Israeli or US pilots has ever lost an air-to-air engagement. Score: Them-0, F15- whole damn bunch.

Fabs, I was a combat pilot and I still think like one. It wasn't my job to figure out the politics. It was just my job to beat the other guy and fly home alive. I managed that little chore 300 times - 35 years ago - and I still don't try to figure out the politics.

Montana Cowboy

07-15-2006, 10:36 PM

Evening Rocky
Just a heads up. The new F-22 that will be replacing the F-15 Eagle is quite a piece of equipment. In an air to air engagement one F-22 went up against 5 F-15 Eagles and defeated them all. That is incredible. What makes it really incredible is it did it not only once but 5 times in the same day. This was a no holds bard engagement the, F-15 pilots were out to snuff that F-22. The comment from one of the F-15 pilots was "Go out , Get killed, Go to the refueling tanker, , Go back to the fight and get killed again" . The F-22 will carry on the success of the F-15 Eagle. MC

fabsroman

07-15-2006, 11:39 PM

Rocky,

Thanks for the info. My buddy said that if he ever went from the Navy to the Air Force, the F-15 is what he would want to fly. He said that it is the only American plane that can accelerate vertically. Don't know if it is the only plane in the world that can do it, but in the US it is. Granted, I think the F-22 has the F-15 beat in that category too. My buddy loves the F-22 and I think he might have even flown it while he was here in Maryland as a test pilot over the last three years. I'll have to ask him about it the next time I talk to him.

As far as politics are concerned, I agree completely with you that a soldier/fighter pilot should never let politics get into the equation. Every time my buddy goes up, I truly hope he is only concentrating on the mission at hand and getting back home safely to his wife and two kids. The politics should be left up to the politicians and people like me with nothing better to do with my spare time. I read a little more about the Israel/Arab conflict, and it looks like the arabs are to blame for most of it, but that information was off a pro Israel board, one that I think was sponsored by Judaism because of the references in the text. So, I am going to look for something a little less bias over the next hour or so before I have to get some sleep. I'll post about it if I find anything significant.

PJgunner

07-17-2006, 03:20 AM

There seems to be something missing in this picture.All this concerns not only Israel, but the rest of the non-Muslim world as well. This all started with the First Crusade in 1096 A.D and continued with six more Crusades finally ending in 1314 A.D.
Islam is a religion that WILL NOT allow the existance of any other religion other than Islam. PERIOD!
Look at the infiltration of Muslims in Europe and the British Isles. They blew up a few trains in Spain and Spain bends in fear to their wishes. The blow up a few trains in Britain, and the Brits seem to be cowed to some degree, although nowhere near as much as Spain. Now they blew up some trains in India.
I believe that the term "peaceful Muslim" is not only an oxymoron but an outright lie. It is my understanding that the Koran states that is is no sin to lie to an unbeliever. That it is an homor to kill an unbeliever. If these so-called peaceful Muslims were against the religious fanatics doing all the terrorism, why haven't they said something? Where are all the protests against the terrorists and what they do? By their silence, they condemn themselves.
This is just my opinion, but if the leaders of the non-Muslim countried don't remove their heads from the warm dark places they seem to be keeping them; well we will be/are in deep kim-chi, and that's not a pleasant place to be.
When israel had a few troops kidnapped, they went out and kicked arse and are taking names.
When the terrorist kidnap our boys, torture and behead them, we wring our hands and say, "Woe is me!" Don't humiliate any raghead prisoners. The have rights. BULLCRAP! What rights did the American civilians and soldiers have when that slimey piece of excrement named Zarquawi sawed their heads off with what was apparently a dull knife? Absolutely none.
I have seen one of the videos of Mr. Z sawing the head off what appearred to be a 60 year old man. As far as I am concerned, you can nuke the whole damned Middle East and be done with it. Until you have sat down as watched what was done in the name of Allah, their god, then I feel your opinions don't mean squat. Any excuse like I don't need to see is is nothing more than a cop out. I didn't sleep for two days after seeing that. maybe, instead of the media claiming that it is too graphic for our poor sensibilites, they do their job and show the people exactly what kind of chicken crap types we're dealing with.
The matter of the fact is this, more people have been killed/murdered in the name of religion than for any other cause.
Normally, when I rant about something, I will apologize to those I may have offended. I hope that if I have offended anyone, that they will forgive me for not apologizing this time.
Paul B.

DogYeller

07-17-2006, 07:15 AM

As a Lebanese American, FSM Contributing Editor Brigitte Gabriel offers her unique perspective on the continuing conflict in the Middle East and the deadly ideology that would wage war on the West.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/global.php?id=165839

jon lynn

07-17-2006, 10:07 AM

PJgunner
Living in Germany, I see and talk to Turkish people daily, in fact today, a 3 man-muslam group informed me that the Koran states (just like christians) suicide is a sin. The extrimist are not mayrters, but misguided sinners.

They said you gain the glory of Allah in battle (as in solder vs. solder) not by blowing your self up, but Turkey is a pretty modern country compared to their eastern bordered muslems.

Keep in mind what you wrote is true to some groups. How Alqueda and radical groups pull off the 16-Virgin bluff, is find some of the THOUSANDS who can't read or write, and read them the Koran (blink-blink) their way, then yes every one is an infadel, and should be destroyed.
True muslems do indeed 'look down' on non-muslems as lesser beings. But they (historically) use the lessers as servants. Why wipe out potential laborers.

I my self am weary of the muslem culture I truly admit.

But in ANY CULTURE, when you mix religon in to your politics, (as in the Islamic republic of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ fill in blank) it is gioing to be bastardized and get all out of controll, just like now.

If you brain wash people in thinking they are doing Gods' work, they get weird. Look at Koresch, and Jonestown, even some of us western-wasps fall for the trap. In the mid-east they just took it too far on a large scale.

And on the Mexico invasion I created for my senerio, the answer is ,yes. If you as political body, or party, breech another nations borders, and kidnap citizens, you get what you deserve. I just chose Mexico as an example because of our weak border with them.

But for this Israel thing going on, the PLO types run Gaza, sponsored terrorist are in the parlament in Beirut. THEY KNEW WHAT ISRAELS RESPONCE WOULD BE! I guarentee they were hopeing the 'rest of the muslem world' would ralley.

And here is the clintcher for me. We as Americans should tolerate Israels mistakes, because until I see all those WMD's that caused the invasion of Iraq, I think 2,500+ brave young American solders, marines and airmen & sailors dead, so far has been for absoulutly nothing.

And don't think I am a peacenik, I was in Desert Storm, and in the US Army for 10 years (with a real honest to gosh honorable discharge), and am trying to go reserve.

Steverino

07-17-2006, 01:43 PM

The US State department along with the UN and Israel have been pressuring Lebanon for years to turn out the Hezbollah terrorist cells which operate safely within it's borders and receives funding from Syria and Iran. Lebanon's own armed forces have many that are Hezbollah loyalists that will not tow the party line for fear of risking another bloody civil war.

The fact that we STILL do not see the Lebanese government raiding the cities themselves to turn these terrorist ragheads in to me is very telling. They'll continue to whimper and plea for the U.N. and international community to mediate a cease fire but take no responsibility, even as their own cities are being leveled with missles and bombs.

I do feel badly for the poor souls caught in the crossfire and the innocent loss of life but I also cannot believe that the citizens of Lebanon are not taking to arms and dragging their current government through the streets to turn out these terrorist cells operating within their country.

Israel has had enough. I do not support all of what I am seeing and reading but at the same time, I have to admit that I have a small part of me that is admiring the hell out of their response. One way or another, these ragheads are going to get turned-out.

Personally, I'd like to see this same type of response (perhaps more extreme) levied against Syria as well as the foremost terrorist recruiter, supplier, and financier in the world.

People have been putting up with two much crap for far too long. Somebofy else coined it and I have to agree-you haven't seen Japan start any trouble in a long time, have you?

Skinny Shooter

07-17-2006, 04:26 PM

Too bad he didn't get his chance...

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/print.asp?page=2002%5C08%5C04%5Cstory_4-8-2002_pg1_6

8/4/2002
WASHINGTON: Former US President Bill Clinton who many Arab thoughts was more even-handed on the Palestine question than his predecessors shocked many when he asserted in Toronto last week that had Israel been attacked by Iraq or Iran during his presidency, he would have been ready to “grab a rifle, get in a ditch and fight and die.”

A true warrior... :D

fabsroman

07-17-2006, 04:52 PM

Guys, after doing a bunch of reading, I think I will have to side with Israel over the long run, but still have a problem with all the trouble going on right now. If you are going to start this trouble, how about ending it. It truly sucks that this thing has been going on for decades and decades. Personally, I wouldn't mind if the entire Middle East was removed from existence. America would learn how to deal with less oil and we could have some semblance of peace in the world. Of course, I don't think anybody will agree with nuking the place because of the fallout and other consequences, but it would still be nice for it to be gone.

larryours

07-18-2006, 01:13 PM

PJgunner, I agree with you.
It gets you to wonder also about the UN, they are condemning Israel, saying Israel is breaking the International law by cutting off Beirut from the rest of the world, however Israel is taking out the access points that Syria and Iran are supplying arms to the Hezbollah/and or Lebonese.
Just like Iraq, the French and Russians were against going in, the main reason was they knew what would be found, weapons made by the French and Russians.(and they are members of the UN)
The UN's credibility and backbone has gone to hell in a handbasket. As far as I'm concerned, Israel has ever right to do what they are doing
Haven't seen UN condemning anyone else, except Israel !
Kind of makes a person wonder, What's wrong with this picture ?
You don't see Lebon hunting down Hezbollah terrorist . So if they are not against them, there's only one other answer They are for them .
As far as the UN goes, if Israel waits for them to act, there would be no Israel left. It's a plain fact, and these surrounding nations and terrorist know, if you mess with Israel, they are coming back at you. It's a standing policy. As the old saying goes, don't punch a sleeping dog, because he WILL bite you. And I think that is what is happening now, Israel didn't start this and they won't back down.

Skyline

07-19-2006, 12:01 AM

The UN is in danger of going the way of the Dodo. While the intent of this body is good historically, they have been less than productive in serious situations in the recent past.

Personally I think it is time they get their **** together and actually do something constructive in a serious situation some time in the near future or they will lose what little credibility they have left. There have been a number of situations where their response has been abysmal, if not criminal, and yet no one holds them to task.....................time to make all of those deligates earn their life style and globe trotting!!!

BILLY D.

07-19-2006, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by jon lynn
We (as Americans) were totally upset when the Mexican Army suposedly crossed over to cause a bit of mayhem last year. Now Imagine if they came over and snatched a US Border Guard! I would be ready to take a couple armored divisions down south of the Rio Grande in a heart beat.

Israel did what they had to do, I fully support their actions. I do really wish their aim was true in shooting, and could cut down on the non-combatants being killed or injured.

I have read endless books, and watch every documentary over Israel I can. They fought for each and every square inch of that country. I do admit at times they were less than tolerant of some of their arabic neibours, but they live under the constant open threats of muslem nations around them, wishing to wipe them out, for no other reason than the fact they are a Jewish nation. Whom they do not recognize, and still call Israel, Palistine.

Remember when things were going 'kind of good'? And the Israeli Minister went to visit a Mosque, all hell broke loose, and violence spread all through out the country, and suicide bombings went on........................so much for the tolerance of the other side.

And on the Issue of the Palistinians, check on the history of the region, pre-Israel, the arabs who controlled the zones didn't treat the Palistinians like people, the Israelis allow them to apply for Israeli citizenship.

But back to the present, I think Israel will make a huge mistake if they trade a few solders for dozens of terrorist. I hope they don't trade at all. If Hezbollah tries to take them to Iran, they are just asking to get pulverized. I just wonder is Iran stupid enough to back Hezbollah openly, after years of denying it.

But this could get worse, and the US would have no other option, than to help Israel is some way, shape or form. Because IMHO if Israel ever thought they would really and truly lose their country or Jeuresulem, I think they would nuke it them selves, to keep it from falling to the long time enemys.

(as usual please forgive my lousy spelling..........my spell check is in German)

in your last paragraph last sentence you make mention of something important. in reference to that, have you ever read the story about masada? it happened when the jews were fighting the roman empire.

Valigator

07-19-2006, 07:31 AM

Be careful to recognize any slant the mainstream media puts on this war...when Israel decided it needed a homeland a half century ago...they took territories that belonged to the Palestinians for centuries. In some cases, they literally gave the Palestinian people days to get out of there homes with no compensation. In their quest for their rights to establish a state of their own, they pissed alot of people off. It is not as simple as a difference in religion. I personally think the world unestimated the core hatred the Arabs had for the Jews that has festered for decades. This hatred has spawned groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Hezbollah whether you agree with their religion or not is doing what the jews did 55 years ago...trying to establish their own state for their sect. Do I think its a good idea? No, they are extremist and dangerous, but they are as adamant about it as the Jews were. Over many Presidents and many hours of so-called peace processes, the Israeli's have on numerous occations violated almost every aspect of agreements under the guise of "Demanding a homeland" with many of the European nations and the west turning a blind eye to these violations. Is it any wonder some of these groups formed? I have mixed emotions and have for many years about our alignment with Israel, I suppose in the big picture it is in our best interest to stamp these groups out and keep a firm grasp in this area for fuel and strategic reasons...but I inherited the fight of the jews for a homeland, now my children have, and make no mistake, my son's children will inherit it with all its repercusions. So since we did, one thing is for sure, We are here...and I am sick and tired of the Bush bashing, the arm-chair politicians and the time-line to pull our troops out...newsflash we are in it, and we are in it for the next 50 years...

Valigator

07-19-2006, 08:24 AM

PS...now I am not sure but I can almost make a guess....when they come to an agreement as to who will be responsible for pickin up the tab for rebuilding the infrastructure in Lebanon, you'll see the bombs stop flying...and you can bet it wont be Israel......ready to bend over everyone?????

Steverino

07-19-2006, 10:29 AM

This issue goes back far longer than a century ago Val- it goes back to the Old Testament and Abraham's birth-right blessing to his son's Ephraim and Mennasah-which gives claim to the land which both Israel and the Palestinians reside.

That visit that was mentioned in a earlier post about then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's visit to the Temple Mount, was not done in an act of extending the ol' olive branch. He walked the Temple Mount which to a person residing in this area, clearly demonstrates ownership. This started the riot and ensuing violence once again in this particular region- a point by and large unreported in any western mainstream reporting. No surprise there.:rolleyes:

Valigator

07-19-2006, 10:39 AM

I know this isnt popular, but I personally dont give a damn about Israel and give less each day. Our generation inherited a commitment made long ago....and for the life of me I cant get a solid answer that would sustain my commitment or my grandchildren's. Hey maybe I'll feel different tomorrow, but everytime I posed a question as to America's undying, unwavering commitment to this ....All I get is some comment that I may be anti-semitic.....No...I would just love to fully understand why we endure the world's wrath for this commitment and someone please explain the dynamics to me that makes sense.

Tater

07-19-2006, 01:18 PM

I agree that Israel has the right to get their troops back. I'm not sure I totally agree with the way they're going about it because a lot of civilians are either getting killed or injured or just losing everything when their home gets blown up. I don't know enough about economics or politics to argue those points but I do believe that Israel should do what they feel necessary to get their troops back.

fabsroman

07-19-2006, 02:23 PM

What is hilarious is that if you were to say "Go Muslims" you would be anti-semitic, but if you say "Go Israel" you aren't considered anti-muslim or anti-arab, or even if you are considered anti-muslim or anti-arab, that is fine.

The more I read about this, the more I find both sides doing things to one another to keep this feud going forever. As I said earlier, the entire Middle East should be nuked because there isn't one purely innocent side with completely clean hands. The Arabs gode on the Jews, and the Jews gode on the Arabs. Yeah, the arabs started this thing in this century by attacking Israel right after it became a country. However, Israel continues to do stuff to the arabs to piss them off. This invasion, killing of civilians, and destruction of non-military targets is one example.

Now, if Israel were to help rebuild Beirut, then I might have a slightly different opinion. Of course, if I were a betting man I wouldn't be betting for Israel to help Beirut rebuild after this is over.

Valigator

07-19-2006, 02:36 PM

I think its time for this generation to ask and get answers...in a very short time this government or the next will commit our sons and daughters to this effort, I need to know why. In as much as I have no connection with Islam or its people, I am starting to wonder if we werent better served to maintain a stronger stance and friendship with the Arab States instead of what we have done...the old "Israel's right to a homeland" isnt enough for me anymore, but its the way it has always been and I get the feeling we are not suppose to question it....well I am questioning??? I e-mailed a Chabad this am and very respectively asked the Rabbi why? I'll bet you 500 bucks he doesnt respond....Actually I have been asking for a few years now, I have never gotten an answer from anyone, and believe me I was nice...

M.T. Pockets

07-19-2006, 02:45 PM

An old friend of mine was in Europe during the last days of WW II and helped liberate a concentration camp, he also spent some time in post war Germany before being discharged. It was during this time that Israel was set up in it's current location.

I think my friend had the right idea. He said that the UN or whoever set up the country of Israel should have put it in the Northwest Territories or Australia or Alaska or somewhere else that was looking for people to come and settle at the time. To take land from Arabs is like trying to take a kill from a grizzly bear and expecting it to be happy about it.

Valigator

07-19-2006, 02:59 PM

I read also in the initial years of looking for a homeland, I think it was on the coast of South Africa was a number one choice...imagine of the aggravation we would have saved....

BILLY D.

07-19-2006, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by Valigator
I read also in the initial years of looking for a homeland, I think it was on the coast of South Africa was a number one choice...imagine of the aggravation we would have saved....

val

this fight for a homeland goes back much further than 1947. this has been an on going fight by the jewish people for four thousand years.

do a search for internet history-israel, and be prepared for a few hours of reading what you don't know about. i was only 10 years old when the israeli state was formed. i was a voracious reader at that time, my grandfathers told me to always be a breast of what is happening in political affairs, both nationaly and internationaly. i have aspired to do that. had it not been for my grandfathers keeping an ear close to the ground little billy d. would be a grease spot on an oven floor somewhere in treblinka, buchenwald or aushwitz.

as for the jews resolve about their homeland read about the story of masada when the roman empire declared war on the jews. as for the old saying "we shall never forgive nor forget those who have wronged us" it still holds true today. maybe be a bit childish, but it is better to stand for something than to fall for anything. do i hear a song?

you might ask why the roman empire declared war on the jews. easy to answer 1. they were religious, at this time in history the romans were pagans, 2. sheer numbers. the jews were few in numbers and it was an easy victory. and the commanders got a feather in their caps.

well since the formation of the israeli state the jews are not spread out like they were before ww2. they are not easy to round up out of the ghettos like what happened in germany, poland and russia. for the first time in 4000 years we have a homeland to protect and protect it they will.

the palistinians may have a small gripe in the land deal, but it was jordan that screwed them over not the israelis. but will palistine fight jordan, nooooooo. they are arab brothers. sides that it's easier to make israel look like the red haired stepchild.

i don't understand your stance on how the u.s. will pick up the costs of repatriating lebanon. thats for them and israel to settle their own differences. israel is not harboring terrorists, lebanon is. if you want to harbor terrorists you are a bad guy right along with them. if you are not our friend in the war on terror then you are our foe. simple as that.

you will never see peace in that region for one simple reason, arabs, i should say muslims, can not get along with themselves. look at iraq. three different muslim sects and they all hate each other. and here we are with our a$$ stuck in the middle.

think iraq will end up a democracy? i don't expect to see it in my lifetime. it will end up like pre saddam. one dictator and lots of mass burial sites.

rant mode off. it's pepcid time.

forgot to type in a link. http://www.fordham.edu/hallsal/ancient/asbook06.html

Valigator

07-19-2006, 05:18 PM

Billy no one in the world is as sympathetic to the Jews and their struggles as the present day baby boomers, we grew up with the cold pictures of what the Nazi's did to the Jews...on any given day we have been conditioned to understand the plight of the Jewish people and their struggles ....and no one diminishes these plights....I am a Christian and one day I may be asked to send my grandson off to fight and risk his life to preserve Israel. I need more than the remembrance of Treblinka to do that. Perhaps I am too pragmatic.....but if Israel wants the ongoing commitment from a new generation I think some of us need to be educated. You are my friend Billy and I would never want to upset you by asking these questions...but I have to tell you, I just dont understand it..

Christians can go back in history and detail atrocities and slaughter that accompanies their struggles, I dont remember the last time we engaged in war and told the world we deserve to win because of the crusades...see what I mean???

BILLY D.

07-19-2006, 06:13 PM

Originally posted by Valigator
Billy no one in the world is as sympathetic to the Jews and their struggles as the present day baby boomers, we grew up with the cold pictures of what the Nazi's did to the Jews...on any given day we have been conditioned to understand the plight of the Jewish people and their struggles ....and no one diminishes these plights....I am a Christian and one day I may be asked to send my grandson off to fight and risk his life to preserve Israel. I need more than the remembrance of Treblinka to do that. Perhaps I am too pragmatic.....but if Israel wants the ongoing commitment from a new generation I think some of us need to be educated. You are my friend Billy and I would never want to upset you by asking these questions...but I have to tell you, I just dont understand it..

Christians can go back in history and detail atrocities and slaughter that accompanies their struggles, I dont remember the last time we engaged in war and told the world we deserve to win because of the crusades...see what I mean???

well sweetheart

to roll it up in one short statement, we are tired of being treated like a used condom and won't take it anymore, the line has been drawn in the sand.

damn here i go again. forget the religious part of the argument, it is about autonomy. the right of a jewish state, the right to settle in the homeland they were run out of thousands of years ago and they spread to the four winds. if you want our land so bad, you are going to bleed and die for it.

fabsroman

07-19-2006, 08:51 PM

I have another big question. Why are the Jews entitled to a homeland? Is any other country actually labeled a homeland for a religion. The Vatican is in Italy, but is Italy the homeland of the Catholics?

Regarding the persecution of the Jews by Hitler and the Romans, lets try to remember that the Romans fed the Christians to the lions and Hitler killed plenty of civilians other than the Jews. Based upon the chart below, Hitler killed more gentile civilians than Jewish civilians, but the holocaust is always synonymous with Jewish history instead of it just being an entire tragedy for the entire world.

Ukrainians 5.5 - 7 million
Jews (of all countries) 6 million +
Russian POWs 3.3 million +
Russian Civilians 2 million +
Poles 3 million +
Yugoslavians 1.5 million +
Gypsies 200,000 - 500,000
Mentally/Physically Disabled 70,000- 250,000
Homosexuals Tens of thousands
Spanish Republicans Tens of thousands
Jehovah's Witnesses 2,500 - 5,000

Yes, 6 million Jews were killed, but there were millions more of gentiles. Why does that rarely ever get mentioned?

Next big question. Did the Jews take this land from anybody 4,000 years ago, or was it just sitting there for them to occupy and use?

M.T. Pockets

07-20-2006, 08:31 AM

Harry Truman had a LOT to do with the state of Israel existing where it is. He was warned plenty about the Arab hatred this would create, and how it would alienate our major supplier of oil, but there weren't near the Arab voters in the US as there were Jewish voters, and there was a Presidential Election in the fall of '48. Truman needed the votes and he got them.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 11:07 AM

This subject is getting pretty touchy but many of my friends are giving me some background on this...which is really appreciated...I need to educate myself a little more fully...Looks like Barnes and Noble is on the visit list...Former sec of state, Madeline Albright has a book out laying out the dynamics of the relationships that focus's on the Middle East....I'm gonna pick that up today....

fabsroman

07-20-2006, 02:44 PM

Val, this is a touchy subject for Jews just as immigration is a touchy subjecy for Hispanics. However, I don't think we have many Hispanic/immigrant hunters on this board. These are also subjects that need to be addressed.

As M.T. said, the relationship with Israel started with Truman because it was an election year. Today, it is still touchy because there are still a good amount of Jewish voters in the US, just as there are now a bunch of Hispanic voters in the US. So, our foreign policy stances are taken based upon what is good for politicians to get into office (i.e., support Israel and do nothing about immigration) instead of what is good for the country. If Italy were causing us this much grief, I wouldn't be sitting here saying we should back them and I have absolutely no issue with what we did with Italy in World War II. My dad's siblings even had to hide from allied bombers during World War II and my dad can slightly remember having to go through air raid drills. However, my dad has gotten into quite a few fights with his Italian friends that say that they like Italy better than the US. Along with telling them to go back to Italy if they do not like it here, some of the arguments actually came to blows. When I was younger, my dad also took the position that if he had to go to war against Italy he would, but he would request that he not be involved in bombing, shelling, or raiding his own town.

Supporting Israel has cost us the Twin Towers, a portion of the Pentagon, several soldiers in the War on Terror, and billions of dollars in aid and to Israel and supplies for the War on Terror. However, if we had never supported Israel from the get go, there would be no terror at all because the arabs wouldn't have a good reason to hate us so much. I have no issue with the Jews in this country, except for those that want the US to unquestionably support Israel without thinking about what is actually good for the US.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 03:25 PM

I have been voracious on this subject for days now...reading any and everything I can get my hands on about this topic. I still am not getting the answers I want to be committed to this. Maybe its my ignorance in religion, but I know I couldnt be the only one. Billy said something about 4000 year history...My first impulse was to say, I wouldnt sacrifice my son for anyone's prophecies written 4000 years ago....ya know last night I watched these young kids from the United States who have never stepped foot in Israel boarding planes to enlist in the army there...Mothers crying ...the pain on their faces you could feel thru the TV...I am not a jew, so thats why in some part I dont get it...but needless to say I am reading.....

Valigator

07-20-2006, 03:42 PM

how do you like this version?

This specific motivation for the support of Israel is never preached from any fundamentalist pulpit. The faithful hear sermons – many, many sermons – on the pretribulation Rapture. On other occasions, they hear sermons on the Great Tribulation. But they do not hear the two themes put together: "We can avoid death, but only because two-thirds of the Jews of Israel will inevitably die in a future holocaust. America must therefore support the nation of Israel in order to keep the Israelis alive until after the Rapture." Fundamentalist ministers expect their congregations to put two and two together on their own. It would be politically incorrect to add up these figures in public.

The fundamentalists I have known generally say they appreciate Jews. They think Israel is far superior to Arab nations. They believe in a pro-Israel foreign policy as supportive of democracy and America’s interests. They do not dwell upon the prophetic fate of Israel’s Jews except insofar as they want to transfer the threat of the Great Tribulation away from themselves and their families. Nevertheless, this is the bottom line: the prophetic scapegoating of Israel. This scapegoat, not Christians, must be sent into the post-Rapture wilderness.

Overall this website tries to tell us we must insure Israel's survival until 2/3 of them are wiped out????????so Christians can make it to heaven....whats up with that????:confused:

Valigator

07-20-2006, 04:01 PM

and from another view...

What Israel wants is what they have always wanted: to use American power, American tax dollars, and American lives to advance their own expansionist agenda. Twenty-five thousand Americans are in Lebanon at the present moment, all of them at risk from Israeli bombs – but that didn't factor into Tel Aviv's calculations, any more than Lebanese or Palestinian lives matter one whit to them. The Israelis put Israel first – and so does Washington. If all 25,000 American tourists and others have to perish in the flames of Israeli air strikes, then so be it. No sacrifice is too great – just as long as our Israel-centric foreign policy remains firmly in place.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 05:51 PM

How was Hizbullah established?

Imam Moussa Sadr

Hizbullah was established in 1982 in the predominantly Shiite south of Lebanon. It has its roots in the mid-1970s when Iranian cleric Imam Moussa Sadr, who moved to the south of Lebanon in 1960, established the Movement of the Deprived. The movement called for the rights and the protection of the impoverished in the south of Lebanon, with Amal as a military wing that fought in the civil war.

Imam Moussa Sadr disappeared during a visit to Libya in 1978. He continues to be mentioned in the speeches of Hizbullah Secretary General Sayyid Hassan Nasrullah, with references to the Movement of the Deprived, which remains alive in the ideology of Hizbullah.

With the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon, Hizbullah emerged with the direct aim of resisting the military occupation and bettering the conditions of Lebanon's Shiite community of the South.

Hizbullah emerged in 1982 with the direct aim of resisting the Israeli occupation.

Throughout the 1980s, as the civil war continued, the power of Hizbullah increased dramatically. It eventually supplanted Amal in the environs of Beirut. Hizbullah's resistance to the Israeli invasion continued to mount. Its guerilla war against the Israeli army developed further and created a draining effect that paved the way for the Israeli withdrawal in July 2000, leaving Shebaa Farms, a disputed part of Lebanese territory, under continued occupation.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 05:53 PM

What is Hizbullah's problem with Israel?

Hizbullah was established with the purpose of liberating Lebanon from Israeli occupation. Apart from its belief that Israel is an illegitimate state that was established on an occupied land, Hizbullah has two pressing issues after the Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon in 2000: the dispute over Shebaa Farms and the Arab prisoners in Israel.

Click for map of Shebaa Farms.

According to the Lebanese government, Shebaa Farms is part of Lebanon; however, Israelis argue that it is part of the occupied Syrian territory. Shebaa Farms has a strategic importance because it overlooks the occupied Golan Heights. Syria supports the Lebanese position with regard to the disputed area.

Hizbullah has also been calling for the release of Arab prisoners in Israel. Approximately 10,000 Palestinian and Arab prisoners, including 2,000 Lebanese, are held in Israeli prisons. In a German-brokered swap that took place in 2004, 430 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners were released in exchange for the bodies of three Israeli soldiers and an Israeli businessman. However, the fact that a large number of Arab prisoners are still held in Israel urged Hizbullah Secretary General Hassan Nasrullah to warn that they would capture more Israeli soldiers with the purpose of swapping.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 06:34 PM

The case for Israel
The truth of the matter is that many in the Arab world want to see all Jews die. Guess what? After the Jews go, Americans are next.

gspsonny03

07-20-2006, 06:51 PM

Geez Val when you get to going, you really go. Good job.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 07:41 PM

Yea but it has a dark side:

A London-based Palestinian organization is trying to file a lawsuit against the former head of IDF Southern Command, Gen. (res.) Doron Almog, on charges of war crimes. The General was on his way to Britain on an El Al flight, but he did not leave the aircraft and returned on it to Israel after much effort to prevent him from officially entering Britain and facing arrest.

Both Sharon Sadeh and Daniel Sobelman add that in 2002 a British Islamic organization, the British Islamic Union, threatened to take legal action against Shaul Mofaz, then Chief of Staff, for his responsibility in war crimes against the Palestinian people. Mofaz was visiting Britain at the time.
Response from website in Israel::

Reader responses to the article

It looks like they need a big terrorist attack to help them understand who these Arabs are!—Anonymous.

The British ambassador must be kicked out of Israel, along with all the Arabs—Me.

We shouldn’t fly to the UK, visit it, or buy British products. Those English bastards think that they’re the kings of the world—An Israeli.

It’s true that he’s a criminal, but so what? That won’t end the occupation, but will just make it more dangerous—El.

Let’s cut all our ties with England immediately and boycott them. Do not travel there or buy their products—Ilan.

I don’t know how they can give legitimacy to the Arabs—Yossi.

We should try them for the war crimes they committed against the Irish—Mel.

The English are blind and stupid hypocrites—Edie Shor, Ariel.

All of my respect to those who filed the case! May every Israeli war criminal be tried in our time, Amen—Yossi.

Britain is in Iraq. Why don’t they try their own soldiers?—Haggai.

Valigator

07-20-2006, 07:50 PM

Reader responses to the article

What are the Americans complaining about? We want to see them get attacked and then say nothing—Shut up.

The entire land of Israel is for the people of Israel alone. There are 22 Arab states—Cato the elder.

We are starting to get sick of those arrogant Americans—Let them look at themselves first.

Did the US kill 70 people in Iraq yesterday? Are they allowed to do that? How hateful!—Warrior.

Let them protest as much as they want. No Israelis will die because of Palestinians, may God erase their name—May God erase the memory of the Palestinians.

The leader of the big gang, the US, is criticizing the leader of the small gang, Israel—The US and Israel are terrorists.

The US should shut up—Mor.

We also criticize the US for having killed 300,000 people. How audacious of the US to criticize our checkpoints when it has killed 300,000 Iraqis in two years to steal their wealth using arms—Iraqis, for theft.

Apart from money, they have nothing to give us, and definitely no wisdom—Sick of Americans.

If only the American hypocrites would mind their own business. The audacity!—Angry.

The hell with the Americans! Enough with them. Who do they think are to dictate our way of survival? I am sick and tired of them—An Israeli abroad.

USA is like dogs! Take care of your problem first. Don’t tell Israel what to do! You better take care of your problems with blacks and neonazim! Don’t put your big greedy nose in Israel pocket! You had WTC and have Iraq and will have much more so bug off! Its not your #### business! [sic]—God.

8X56MS

07-21-2006, 10:01 PM

I am for killing all the radical muslims possible. Sooner or later, we are going to have to start on that project here. When push comes to shove, the peace loving muslims living here in America and Canada will be following the radical muslim clerics instructions.

fabsroman

07-22-2006, 02:05 AM

We should give them what they wish, and cut off all aid to them in every respect. I cannot believe they write crap like that. Everybody loves to hate the USA until they need us.

BILLY D.

07-22-2006, 03:16 AM

val and fabs

i thought you guys were gangbanging there for awhile. as long as i posted info you rebutted it and riddled it full of holes. but night before last my left eye started hurting and watering, so yesterday morning after waking up and my eye was glued shut i thought i better call the doctor. what a goat rope that turned into. as soon as i'm over the eye infection i have to have surgery on the eyelid because the muscle that controls the eyelid is weak, so they are going to tighten it up. i hope this doesn't turn out like 2003.

i had back surgery, all my upper teeth pulled and a vasectomy all in one summer. everybody i met that year had a knife in their hand. i kept the medical profession solvent that year.

i was wondering if you guys are church goers? i don't know what type crucifix you are familiar with. but the catholic one has a plaque above christs head that has four letters on it "INRI". this plaque was the last stab in the back to humiliate jesus christ by pontius pilate.

the inri in latin means "iesvs nazarenus rex ivdaeorvm". translated to english meaning "jesus of nazareth, king of the jews." catch that jew part fabs. i checked on who was the real estate agent for that part of the world at that time and it turned out to be this dude from rome named pontius pilate. at this time all jews were israelites and lived in israel , however all israelites were not jews. they were pagan. jesus christ spent his entire life under the rule of the roman empire. the first half under the emperor caesar agustus and the second under tiberius.

israel in those days was about twice the size it is today. it ran from the suez region all the way to damascus. the country to the west was what became later syria and baylon. to the north "LEBANON".

hey fabs if you want to have some real fun check out the greek jews who were actually dislocated to the black sea area of russia and ask your dad why they had a ukranian university in rome. that is really a great story.

well i got to go change eye patches. i thought it was difficult to type with one hand, then i tired typing with just one eye.

holy crap. i just tried something. i took off my glasses and i can see the screen alot and i mean a lot better without them.

excuse any spelling mistakes, the devil made me do it.

night all.

Valigator

07-22-2006, 07:20 AM

Sorry about your eye Billy, and I have to tell ya I been in a turmoil everyday because I feel like I have hurt your feelings...I certainly didnt mean too, but mean too and do, are always two different things for me.....I cant speak for Fabs, but no, I am not a big church goer and have little overall knowledge of the Bible or any other book of faith for that matter. So maybe thats why I feel the way I do because of the limited knowledge or the limited faith, take your pick. I was born and raised in South Florida with a very large Jewish population. Now how can I word this???? ok let me give you just the recent example...there is a residential neighborhood in a city called Hollywood, Fl. probably a thousand single family homes in this one development. Two rabbi's went in about 3 years ago and bought two homes side by side. They opened a Chabad. The neighbors went ballistic because of all the traffic in this residential neighborhood. The neighbors complained and filed suit. You know what the Rabbi's reasoning was? We as Jews have been persecuted for thousands of years and this suit is brought by Anti-Semites. "no" the suit was brought by people who pay darn good taxes for what was zoned a residential neighborhood and all the cars were dangerous and blocking people's driveways. This is an ongoing response in South Florida for every situation...so for me anyway, I am kinda burnt out on these comebacks...I dont care if your a Jew, a Christian, black, white or purple...at some point people are gonna have to stop slaughtering each other because of the God they pray too. And more important quit making world policies under that same guise.

fabsroman

07-22-2006, 10:09 AM

Billy, like Val, I am sorry to hear about your eye and I don't mean to piss you off or hurt your feelings, but I am the kind of person to write/speak my mind. I don't consider myself racist or prejudiced. I have black friends, asian friends, Jewish friends, Christian friends, Arab friends, etc. Of course, I do not hang out with a lot of those friends on an on going basis because of my work and my hobbies. Those two things keep me pretty busy. Heck, I don't hang out with a lot of people at all unless they are clients.

I did know about Christ being the king of the jews. If I am not mistaken, Pilot asked him about it and he never denied it. If I am not mistaken, the Jews were the ones asking Pilot to punish/crucify Christ because he claimed to be the king of the jews. So, I don't put all the blame in Pilot's hands. Am I correct that the Jews were the ones that asked Pilot to kill Christ?

Anyway, that is enough of religious history. I am at the point where I don't think previous actions/atrocities against any race/religion justify anything that we are going now. So what, the blacks were enslaved over 100 years ago. Does that mean they should get preferntial treatment over me? My parents weren't even here then and they had nothing to do with it. Is it fair that a friend of mine with the same GPA and LSAT score got into Cornell and I could not? Is it fair that this same guy's parents were actually foreigners that came to the US, his dad was a CPA while my dad was a construction worker, and this kid was allowed the advantage of affirmative action.

For the same reason, I could care less about previous things that happened to the Jews to justify what they are doing today. Yeah, they had a tough time in World War II, but so did others. They had a tough time throughout history at certain points, but so have others. I am sure that the Arabs lost plenty of people during the Crusades. As I posted above, there were many other people killed in World War II other than just Jews. I think one of the reasons that Hitler kept Jews in camps instead of killing them right out is because he was using them to create certain things for him. Did you know that Hitler had a bunch of Jews working on creating counterfeit money from all the Allies, which the Jews did for him, and if the war had continued on for a while he would have been able to use that counterfeit money to obtain things and cause huge inflation in the Allied countries. I believe the Jews also helped him with other things related to the war, but the specifics escape my memory right now. Granted, the Jews did this not because they wanted to, but because their life depended on it. So, by helping the Nazi's with this stuff, how many American lives were lost. Luckily, the war turned out the way it did, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation.

At the end of the day, I just do not want to hear that the Jews can do whatever they want just because of the previous atrocities that they have endured. Every race/religion has endured something or another over the years, so if we all employed that thinking we could all do whatever we wanted.

Okay, I am going to get back to the Tour de France.

fabsroman

07-22-2006, 02:40 PM

Billy,

I forgot to add one thing. Val and I have gone at it about the death penalty and illegal immigration, and I still think of her as a friend. If I were ever in the Fort Lauderdale area, I would look her up and take her to dinner. Likewise, I would do the same if I were in your neck of the woods. Just because we disagree on politics doesn't make us enemies. One of my best friends is a democrat, or as he calls it a conservative democrat, and I think he is one of the most stand up guys I have ever met. He is an attorney too, so take that at what it is worth. LOL

gspsonny03

07-22-2006, 11:58 PM

Fabs, Val,
Just a little more religious history if you'll humor me. It wasn't Pilate that had Jesus crucified. He found no fault with what Jesus was doing and refused to crucify him. He told the High Priests (at that time they were in control of the Jews and their sect were called Sad'du-cees), that if they wanted him crucified they would have to do it theirselves. At that time they were under Roman rule and they (the High Priests) considered Caesar the King and didn't want the anger him, so they gave up the only man to ever live who could save us, up for crucifixtion. It's kind of ironic don't you think that he shed his blood to save us from all our sins! He could have saved himself but elected to die on the cross for us.
And by the way for those who want to read this, remember at one time we were all the same race and religion, now that was some four thousand years ago, but if you believe in the Bible, it all started with Adam and Eve, so you figure it out.;)

fabsroman

07-23-2006, 02:09 AM

Sonny,

I thought that Pilate made the Jews pick between Barabas (sp.), a murderer, and Jesus, as to who would be crucified, and the Jews picked Jesus and let Barabas walk. At that point, Pilate told them that they had picked the wrong man.

My religion is a little rusty, so correct me if I'm wrong. I would rather be corrected than go on making the wrong assumption and looking like a bigger moron.

gspsonny03

07-23-2006, 02:27 AM

No, that is true he did. He said that he wouldn't make the choice for them because he didn't see where Jesus had done anything to deserve the crucifixtion. He told the High Priests that it would be their decision not his, so they let Barrabas go and condemned Jesus.

royinidaho

07-23-2006, 09:54 AM

I agree fully, 100% w/Jewish Miliatry Actions!

Regarding collateral damage in the area.

If I allow my neighbor 70yds away, to conduct covert and overt operations against the Shoshone/Bannock Indian tribe, our common neighbor and could have organized my neighborhood to prevent those actions and the ShoBans launch an arrow on that residence that has an 80yd kill radius.....well its poo poo on me.

If I'm home that day I loose my house and my life. If I'm away I just loose my residence. Either way I should have learned something.

A good read would be Josephus - History of the Jews. Very long read but very imformative.

royinidaho

07-23-2006, 09:59 AM

GSP,

Here's one for ya:

The Pharasees believed in the ressurection.

The Sad'du-cees didn't

That's why they were so sad you see.:rolleyes:

Valigator

07-23-2006, 10:10 AM

Roy, the key sentence in your post was

(If I allow my neighbor 70yds away, to conduct covert and overt operations)

I dont know about you but I have no idea what operations my neighbors are conducting. I will tell you what I keep looking for though, is Hezbollah terrorist being killed and layed out for display instead of babies....

fabsroman

07-23-2006, 11:04 AM

Roy,

Last I checked it wasn't so easy to track down "terrorists". We couldn't even find them in our own country and look what happened (i.e., 9/11). There are cells all over the world (e.g., Spain, England) and I don't see them catching any of these guys or stopping all of them before they can strike. However, we expect Lebanon, with its limited technology to be able to do a better job of catching these guys than the FBI. I don't think the Hezbollah walk around with jerseys saying they are members of Hezbollah.

Also, I agree with Val. There is way too much collateral damage. In your scenario, what if the Indians were a lot farther away and instead of launching an arrow they launched a nuke to kill your neighbor and blew up an entire city. Would that be an acceptable amount of collateral damage? Israel could fight this fight with small arms like the US is doing, but instead they decide to use artillery, tanks, cruise missiles, and bombs from planes. Granted, we use bombs from planes every once in a while (e.g., Zerquai), but we aren't taking out airports, roads, bridges, apartment buildings, etc.

Valigator

07-23-2006, 11:37 AM

I keep thinking with all the monies all the lives everything that this conflict had on the line....how come the powers that be, werent infiltrating Hezbollah and getting a better idea where and who they were in terms of intelligence...especially since they were in such close proximity to each other...I mean they keep saying how they know the weapons were coming in from Iran to Syria to Lebanon...and how Hezbollah had six years to gain a position on the border....I dont know just a thought...

BILLY D.

07-23-2006, 04:25 PM

hi guys

back for a shortie. val it's called appeasement for a trap. you wait till the enemy gets all his sh*^ in one sock and he thinks you are not paying attention then you hammer him.

i would imagine mossad has worked overtime on this matter. mossad is not quite like our cia, mossad is actually an institute or university.

one of my brothers said the place to keep your eye should be france. the french muslim population has swelled to over 25% in total population in recent years. the muslims will cause enough turmoil to start getting government seats. ever notice where all the dictators, ie: muslim go when the doo doo hits the fan in their home country and they are deported. FRANCE. it's the assylum capital of choice.

well thats enough for awhile. i'll be back.

fabsroman

07-24-2006, 12:46 AM

Good, I hope France has one heck of a time with them. Maybe we can send out troops to France in a decade or two and oust the French government, and I am being completely serious here.

BILLY D.

07-24-2006, 02:56 AM

Originally posted by fabsroman
Good, I hope France has one heck of a time with them. Maybe we can send out troops to France in a decade or two and oust the French government, and I am being completely serious here.

fabs

you might thunk from some of my posts i am anti muslim and i'll look you right in the eye and tell you " your damned right i am."

why you might say. well the first bs we heard from potus was the muslims are peaceful. that may be true to an extent. but why are the "peacfull" muslims not protesting against the extremists?

real simple answer. because the extremeists will eat them alive. the peacefulls will do what they are told and fall right into the ranks. same way the krauts did under hitler. the old ideology of if i want to stay alive all i have to do, is do what i am told. and keep quiet.

american answer, shoot, shovel and shut up.

muslims cause trouble wherever they settle. look at the phillipines, indonesia etc. yes the peacefulls are the first to show up, then the extremeists show up and start stirring the pot.

just lately the aussies had a problem with muslims in which the muslims tol the aussie leader that they followed sharia law. the aussie promptly told them this is australia and we follow aussie law and if they didn't like it to saddle up their camels and get the hell out. i say hooray.

when and if the socialist/democrats, notice i stopped short of calling them communists, which they really are, become elected in '08 we are goimg to be in deep doo doo. they are experts in class warfare. they will side with the muslims, no doubt in my mind. the muslims and the anti-christ have already stolen christmas under the guise of not offending anyone. i say, those people can go urinate up a rope as far as i'm concerned.

back to the roman empire. i was not trying to insult you about that or your lineage. the romans owned everything from north africa to great britain. anything wrong with that? not as far as i'm concerned. the romans and the greeks were the greatest minds on the planet in those times. their feats in mathmatics, medicine and engineering are still unequaled in my book. most of the highways in europe are old roman roads. and you can throw in government into that foray also. our democratic republic is a direct decendant of them.

the post about pilate was correct. he did offer christ back and he washed his hands of the mess. after i was reminded of that i rememberd. i guess what stuck in my mind was the line from the apostles creed ie: suffered under pontius pilate, died and was buried. well it was during pilates reign as govenor but really thats all he had to do with it. sorta like blaming george bush every time the planets are out of alignment.

well i better git.

fabsroman

07-24-2006, 10:19 AM

Billy,

I am not going to disagree with a single thing in that post. I think we just need to show the good muslims that they are going to die if they decide to join the bad ones, and I think the US and Israel are doing a good job of it. I saw a pic last night that showed fliers being dropped by the Israelis. It showed the Hezboallah leader hiding behind captured citizens.

As I've said before, I am on the fence regarding Israel in this situation, and I am swaying like the wind. Also saw a pic of a young boy whose van was blown up by an Israeli bomb from a plane. He was pretty messed up. That makes me feel pity for the Lebanese citizens.

Regarding the Roman Empire, I think the US should do the same. Take over Mexico, most of Latin America, and the middle east. That would solve our immigration and oil problem and then Congress can get back to work putzing around.

Valigator

07-24-2006, 09:16 PM

One of my nurses and I had a heart to heart today, she is a Lebanese Christian who has much family left in Lebanon...it was the first time I had seen her since the middle of last week, an I asked her about her family and what they were thinking, she said most of the Lebanese thought if it took wiping out the country to rid the area of Hezbollah most of them were for it...I was quite surprised....she said that her family did not want a partial peace, they wanted Hezbollah out....I said Hezbollah gained seats in the elections and that just didnt make sense...she said, Valerie those seats were not gained democratically, Lebanon is a young country and there is still much corruption, as a Lebanese they do not want Hezbollah in Lebanon. There are many Christians, Jews and Muslims who want no part of Hezbollah

fabsroman

07-24-2006, 09:57 PM

That begs the question:

"If the majority of Lebanese do not want Hezbollah around, why can they not get rid of them?"

Why is Hezbollah still around if they are not the majority and they are unwanted?

This really pisses me off.

Valigator

07-24-2006, 10:09 PM

Fabs this is where Billy and I asked about your age, and you got a little defensive about it......I can tell you from what I have seen in this world, that almost nothing (IS )as it (Seems).....and the older I am getting, the more I can bank on that ideal than just about anything else......I have to ask myself everyday where in the world has common sense gone? The faith I had yesterday is exploding in little bits and peices every day...I have come to the conclusion that as bad as it is, its still the best there is, but isnt that the damnest thing, You know that old saying Ye who has the gold, makes the rules, its more apparent everyday...and ye who has the gold didn't make it in the most noble arenas...I am scared now, and I am scared of nothing....the world has gone mad to me...

BILLY D.

07-24-2006, 10:31 PM

Originally posted by fabsroman
That begs the question:

"If the majority of Lebanese do not want Hezbollah around, why can they not get rid of them?"

Why is Hezbollah still around if they are not the majority and they are unwanted?

This really pisses me off.

fabs

you are losing your short term memory son. i just explained it to you in the last post. shoot shovel and shut up.

they don't dare make waves or hezbollah will take them out. when they get enough gumption to take on the enemy and run them out of the country hezbollah will go somewhere else. but the lebonese will probably have to liquidate all or most of them to achieve running them out. do the lebonese have the resolve to do this? we shall see.

there are already rumors flying about that the lebonese government army is in bed with hezbollah. hezbollah are thugs that will stop at nothing to achieve their goal. they intimidate. and they are ruthless. think kgb here. hezbollah would make the kgb look like choir boys under some circumstances.

fabsroman

07-25-2006, 02:30 AM

Val,

I kind of remember you guys asking about my age, but I do not remember getting offensive or defensive about it. However, I'll take your word on it.

Billy,

I am going to take a break from the Israel/Lebanon issue and concentrate on getting a new road bike for the best possible price. This thing has given me as much of a headache as deciding on which gun safe, AR-10, and AR-15 to purchase. That is me being picky. I now know about every type of bike frame material and almost every frame builder in the world.

BILLY D.

07-25-2006, 02:58 AM

Originally posted by fabsroman
Val,

I kind of remember you guys asking about my age, but I do not remember getting offensive or defensive about it. However, I'll take your word on it.

Billy,

I am going to take a break from the Israel/Lebanon issue and concentrate on getting a new road bike for the best possible price. This thing has given me as much of a headache as deciding on which gun safe, AR-10, and AR-15 to purchase. That is me being picky. I now know about every type of bike frame material and almost every frame builder in the world.

fabs

i'm kinda burned out too.

i don't remember anything about the age issue.

but i did have a brain wave. did you ever get your 10-22 up and running? i don't recall any posts about it except you were experiencing problems.

had mine out awhile back and shot a bucket load of gophers. also shot my 22-250ai #'s 1 and 2, and my hornet and 243ai. had a blast. then i got home and had to clean them all. ugh. not too rough, iv'e got three benches in my basement to work off of. boy i love that wipe-out. it's almost better than sex. :eek:

fabsroman

07-25-2006, 09:31 AM

Still haven't gotten the chance to shoot the 10/22. Might try to do it this weekend, but the in-laws are going to be here until Sunday morning, so that probably will not happen. I've been looking at the Volquartsen Snake 10/22 variants (e.g., .17 HMR, .22 Mag, and .17 Mach2). If I can ever get my AR-10 and AR-15, those will be next on the list.

To make time matters worse, I have been spending about 2 hours a day riding my bike to get back into somewhat decent shape (i.e., get rid of the extra fat on me). The scale at the doctor's office still read 150 lbs. when I went last month, but it isn't the same 150 lbs I am used to. Hence, I am spending money on a new bike instead of a new wardrobe. I had destroyed (i.e., they were actually falling apart in places) all my jeans, so I had to buy some new ones a couple of weeks ago. My waist size has gone from 30 to 31, and I ain't letting it get any bigger.

I'll agree with you about the Wipe-Out. I really hate cleaning my guns, bikes, and cars, but I do it because I hate seeing them look like crap and/or not having them work properly. However, I have everything set up to make it as easy as possible to clean all of them.

Valigator

07-25-2006, 09:28 PM

tidbits of maybe unknown stuff....

The first Israeli strike in Gaza hit an electricity plant causing about one million people to be in total darkness. It has been reported that the plant was insured by US Government foreign risk insurance and will now cost the US government about $25 million to repair. Bridges and roads in the south of Gaza were also hit in order to prevent the possible movement of kidnappers and Corporal Shilat out of Gaza- at least that was the reason given by the army. The US has appealed to Israel not to damage infrastructure in Gaza, but Jerusalem doesn't seem to be listening.

Valigator

07-25-2006, 09:36 PM

As early as 1919 there were signs of the fighting between Muslim Arabs and Jews that was bound to ensue if the madcap scheme to plunk the Jews into the middle of people hostile to them was carried out. The leaders of the most strident opposition group, the Jaffa Muslim Organization, issued this statement: "We will push the Zionists into the sea or they will push us into the desert." [Quoted in Righteous Victims by Benny Morris (Knopf, 1999)]. With blind determination to avoid the predictable, on July 24, 1922, the League of Nations issued a Palestine Mandate approving the Jewish homeland promised in the Balfour Declaration, modifying the Declaration with clauses recognizing the rights of non-Jews in the region identified as Palestine.

Once persecuted European Jews and pogrom victims in Russia began their exodus to the area of Palestine where Israel was taking shape, Arabs began rioting and fighting what they construed as unacceptable incursions into their land. The violence was so alarming to the British government which controlled the region that its political leaders issued its 1939 "White Paper" drastically limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The end result was that millions of European Jews were trapped in Nazi-occupied Europe.

Why the Jews Were Trapped

The reason why the Jews were trapped in countries occupied by the Nazis was that they were refused admission elsewhere. Acting on orders from President Franklin D. Roosevelt, ironically depicted as "friend of the Jews," the U.S. Government turned away thousands of Jews on ships which had carried them to American shores. Nor would the governments of other nations accept them. They were forced either to return to the countries where they were to be imprisoned and slaughtered or to sail on to Israel. Jewish leaders kept begging the government of the U.S. to allow immigration. Had their pleadings been heeded, a far greater number of Jews than those who eventually settled in Israel would have become citizens of the U.S., and the picture in the Near East might be different than it is now.

Creation of an Israeli State

On November 29, 1947, ignoring the certainty of the forthcoming violence that was bound to occur, the United Nations voted to partition Palestine into Jewish and Arab states. As was to be expected, leaders of Arab countries refused to cooperate. What was then the Arab League of Nations, consisting of 22 countries, in effect declared "war on the Jews," determined to "drive them into the sea." A small, vastly outnumbered army of Jews, displaying the first signs of their brilliant military skills and innovative technology, soundly thrashed the troops from 22 Arab nations that encompassed a combined population of several hundred million.

On May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was formally established. While the heads of Arab countries refused to recognize Israel's existence, neither were they of the mind to try any more wars against Jews. The fanatical leaders of Muslim organizations and Islamist sects, however, were of a different mindset. "Death to the Jews" became their motto, and it was clear immediately that they would never accept co-existence with Jews in the region that ceased to be Palestine because it was carved by the British who had controlled it into separate states.

The Creation of Islamic Fanatics

While the madness of plunking Jews into the middle of hostile Arabs was taking its inevitable course, oppression of people in oil sheikdoms, and U.S. recognition of and cooperation with the brutal regimes of the Near East, were causing more and more people in that part of the world to turn to religion for succor and, indeed, what seemed to them to be their only hope to escape wretched poverty. U.S. political leaders, and Americans in general concerned mostly with how cheap the gasoline for their cars would be, blindly refused to recognize the buildup of a new force in the world based on quasi-religious fanaticism.

The end result of decades of horrendous mistakes is now exploding in the Near East and other parts of the world where millions of human beings believe that Islam in one form or another should rule the world, that anyone who does not believe in whatever Islamic clerics preach is an "infidel", and that Americans and Jews wherever they may be are the enemy and deserve to be conquered if not destroyed.

Just as the non-German world failed to heed the threat of Hitler and the Nazis to wipe out the Jews and to create a Nazi-run empire, so has the non-Arab Muslim world failed to take seriously the public announcements of leaders and followers of Islamic quasi-religious organizations that they intend to destroy Jews and Americans and to create an Islamic theocracy across the globe. Instead of crushing the genocidal maniacs before they can acquire the technology and weaponry to achieve their goal - eventually through biological and nuclear weapons if they are allowed to advance that far - the rest of the world has allowed them to grow, unchecked, into a force of armed hatred.

Long before the attack on the World Trade Center, plans of Islamic fanatics to attack areas of the U.S. were known. It has been known for years that Hezbollah, this Islamic militia that wiped out a U.S. Marine contingent and that has wreaked other kinds of havoc, was acquiring the means to rain missiles on Israel. Nothing was done to stop them.

Thus, the Monster created by a series of madcap mistakes has been allowed to grow and gain strength. It should be evident to anyone who has any sense at all that this Monster will allow peace to be arranged neither between the occupants of Israel and the occupants of other Near East countries nor between the Israelis and the people living in the Gaza Strip and West Bank. Any time it appears that some kind of peace negotiations are advancing, the Monster will engender an incident to disrupt it, whether by genocidal bombings preposterously called "suicide bombings" or by kidnappings or by whatever kind of method may be necessary.

This is the lesson of the war now in progress. Those who have eyes but remain blind, because they refuse to see, now blame "the Jews" for the violence that has erupted in the Gaza Strip and Lebanon. But the Jews did not create the Monster. We Americans and our British allies created it. Now it is too late to feel sorry for the oppressed people of the Near East who have become willing followers of the Monster. Now it is too late to try to reason with the Monster, to make peace with it. The Monster is attempting to develop biological and nuclear weapons that it will use for genocidal attacks on whole populations just as readily as its alleged "martyrs" will turn themselves into bombs to kill and maim. Consequently, as terrible as the prospect may seem, unless there is some sort of miraculous turn of events, destruction of the Monster appears to be the only way to secure peace in the Near East. And if the present relatively limited war there is not stopped, it could lead to a conflagration that would make World War II appear to have been a minor military excursion by comparison.

fabsroman

07-25-2006, 10:40 PM

Val,

What is the source of that article?

Valigator

07-26-2006, 05:54 AM

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_burton_h_060721_the_mistakes_at_the_.htm

fabsroman

07-26-2006, 09:04 AM

Val, I looked at the link and here is a comment from one of the readers:

The United States of Israel

Israel is very concerned about Hezbollah getting rockets from Iran but nobody asks where a country the size of New Jersey gets their tanks, planes, artillery, and over 700 atomic bombs from. The answer is that they buy them from the United States with the billions of dollars they get from the United States. Like Haliburton who gets billion dollar no-bid contracts from the United States, they can afford to spend the money because it comes from the United States taxpayer anyway. The AARP or American Association of Retired People have a big lobby in Washington, but AIPAC, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee lobby is bigger. Where does the money come from to spend buying Congressmen? The answer is that the congressmen have just passed an appropriation bill giving Israel 3 billion dollars. They have received 140 billion over the past fifty years.

Over 89% of American Jews vote Democratic. The vast majority of American Jews opposed the Iraq war, (more were against it than in the general population) and American Jews have been enormously important in securing civil liberties for all Americans. But the ruling party in Israel is the Likud and they use their positions to support Likud policies in the American government. All this can happen because there is a vacuum in U.S. political discourse., A handful of special interests in the United States virtually dictate congressional policy on some issues. With regard to the Arab Israeli conflict, The American Israel Public Affairs Committee and a few allies have succeeded in imposing complete censorship on both houses of Congress. No Senator or Representative dares make a speech on the floor of his or her institution critical of Israeli policy."

The blanket of censorship covers the American media also. Even some of the most progressive Jews are afraid to speak their true thoughts on the Israeli expansionist policies in the Middle East. They are even afraid of their own friends and family as the Likud policies dominate every synagogue. After the total destruction of Iraq carried out by the neo-cons by lying to the American people about "weapons of mass destruction" They are now destroying Lebanon, and would have the United States make war with Iran.

Why? because Iran wants to build an atomic reactor. Who wouldn't want an atom bomb when a sworn enemy has hundreds of them? Israel is a warlike nationalistic state run by Zionists. No other country has attacked the United States since Pearl Harbor except when Israel attacked the USS Liberty in international waters. No congressional investigation of this vicious assault has been held. It has been kept out of the press and the media but the veterans of the USS Liberty are on the web. Google over to their site and check it out.

The greatest and most powerful country in the world is hostage to the Zionists. The end of the Cold War left the arms industry hanging but Israel is giving them an excuse to keep making more nuclear submarines. Israel is providing them with their life's blood . . . WAR.

fabsroman

07-26-2006, 09:07 AM

Here is another comment:

Oh, history!

I am wondering what Jewish pogroms did the author find in the Communist Russia of 1920s and 30s. The Communist govt was fiercely internationalist and antisemitism as well as Zionism were prohibited. Now, the idea that European Jews somehow were trapped because they were not allowed to go to Palestine is bizarre to say the least. European Jews were either predominanlty secular or under the Communist ruling and as such never even considered Palestine. It is reflected in numerous books of those times.By the way, the idea that 'people have to emigrate somewhere from the place they were born' is an insult to the human rights.
The tragedy of the European Jews is the tragedy of betrayal when citizens, other ones betrayed their own brothers due to cowardice and malice. In fact, those who died from Germans are first just people and only after that Jews. That's how they identified themselves and that is how we all identify ourselves. Honestly, maybe we should stop using all that ethnic stuff and instead look into politics, driving forces and money? That pertains also to the description by the author of the Zionist ideology. Zionism is politics. It has nothing to do with God. It has also nothing to do with Jews, paradoxically as it seems. It has everything to do with money, power, malice and greed.
Why won't we see that?

Valigator

07-26-2006, 10:28 AM

You really got to pick and choose from that site, its one sided and very slanted....I only picked what appeared to be historical...alot of it is crap.....

gspsonny03

07-26-2006, 10:56 AM

Val did you know that Israel becoming a state was prophesied in the Bible over two thousand years ago and was accurate to the very day. And also Ezekiel chapters 36,37,38 and 39 talk about whats happening over there right now and what will happen in the near future with the Arab states and a country from the North, which the prophets claim will be Russia.

I also don't doubt that there is a few people involved with the Zion movement who are in it for the money, but how anyone can say that it has nothing to do with God totally baffles me. It has everything to do with God. Zion is a hill in Jerusalem on which the Royal Palce of David and the Temple were built and until that Temple is rebuilt there can be no second coming of Christ. The people of Israel know this and that's what most of this war is about.

I think that some of the people who write some of that stuff really need to look more into their Bible for their answers.

Valigator

07-26-2006, 11:22 AM

Yea its a heck of a thing, Uh? we gotta blow each other up to become whole again...:confused:

Steverino

07-26-2006, 12:11 PM

"Zion is a hill in Jerusalem on which the Royal Palce of David and the Temple were built and until that Temple is rebuilt there can be no second coming of Christ."

The Jews of Christ's day, as well as today were looking for an earthly kingdom and not one of heaven. Christ was himself crucified for talking against the temple in which he stated that it would be destroyed (which, of course it was in 70ad) The temple was "rebuilt" in Himself. The seperation or tearing of the temple curtain at Christ's death in the Holy of Holies within the temple, signified God's immediate access to us through His Son.

Also, interesting to note-Pontious Pilate's displaying of "The King of the Jews" placcard over Christ's crucifixtion was a slap in the face-a dig, if you will, to the Pharisee leadership whom, of course, did not wish to buy into Christ's messiahness so as to threaten their powerbase and very existence. Pilate himself converted to Christianity following his tenure as the Roamn perfect or governor in the Roman service.

I will step down from the pulpit now to comment on some other issues read herein:

As I continue to read about how there should be no action against Hezbollah because of the costs to innocent civillian life-mainly in Lebanon, I am frankly dismayed at the lack of backbone displayed. Granted, no one wishes to see innocent loss of life but sometimes-this is a necessary sacrifice to provide securities at a later point and less bloodshed. Big countries have to make big decisions that ultimately benefit the whole of a nation.

I too have lost loved ones in this war on terror but it is simply foolish to maintain a mindset that if the US were to completely drag up from the Middle East and become isolationists with no military presence or democratic allies in the region, we as a nation would be better off. Quite the contrary! Western civilization as a whole is hated throughout the Middle East because of it's dominance in every aspect of culture, business, and lifesyles (some of which-I personally understand and agree with though not on a fundamentalist extreme level) permeate the globe. Leaving radical extremists to their own devices, undeterred will bring about untold bloodshed the likes the US has never seen mingled with consequences that the world would not want and that the US would be expected to eventually bail everyone out with eventually anyhow.

If we cut aid to Israel, then what? Hezbollah through Syria and Iran demand that Saudi Arabia not export the 20% of oil that is earmarked for the US markets because we are the 'Great Satan.' Where does it end? You cannot, nor should we seek to negotiate with these types of extremist zealots. I am amazed when I see and hear people talk about how we should just walk away from people that are more than willing to strap bombs to themselves, spouses, and even children to kill us. Are you nuts??? Do you really believe yourself that this would be the better alternative.

I thank the Good Lord that WWII happened over 50 years ago lest we as a nation of spineless citizens determine that through a Gallop pole conducted by the NY Times that we should not proceed with Operation Overlord as the D-Day invasion would cost far too many lives.

Yes, war sucks but history has shown that pacifism causes far more in the form of human tragedy and suffering. Israel does not conform to the U.N. or international community when it comes to eradicating terrorists. I have no problem with that. Lest we forget that this is the same group responsible for the Maine barrack bombings in Beirut in 1982. I personally hope that Syria and Iran are next.

Valigator

07-26-2006, 12:35 PM

I dont think anyone is advocating cutting and running, and your right on many levels......I think we all know what role the United States and their allies are going to have to engage in, it doesn't make it any more palatable.

BILLY D.

07-26-2006, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Valigator
I dont think anyone is advocating cutting and running, and your right on many levels......I think we all know what role the United States and their allies are going to have to engage in, it doesn't make it any more palatable.

val

war is never palatable. i spent 27 years of my life practicing every day so we wouldn't have to fight in another one. it's called deterence. being strong so no one would ever attack us.

thanks to a generation of fondas, asners and cindy shi%cans, karters and klintons the forces that be saw their opening and explored it to the max on 9/11. actually they tried in '93 also but didn't have their ducks in a row.

for the most part the world hates our guts. and as martha says "thats a good thing", they are jealous of our success in finance and government and the freedom of our people. they can not deal with a free society, they have no idea how it's done. why they are led by one man dictatorships and receive their law by some holy? guy that is in charge of propaganda. oh yes, they hate our guts but they envy us, saying why can't our country be like that?

they also hate the ties that made their governments rich. do you think it was a camel jockey who designed the first bit and drilled for oil there? you can bet your sweet backside it wasn't.

fabs you asked about the russian jews. well most of their decendants are the ones who screwed up vals neighborhood. i arrive at that conclusion by deciphering one word she used. chabad. that is an eastern european hebrew word for a church/synagoge, comunity center. those were the jews forced out of greece many years ago. they were forced into the ukraine. remember when i asked you if your father had ever spoken of the ukrainian university in rome? i would suspect that if val done some searching she would find many russian names amongst the folks in that neighborhood and the church conclave.

one thing that jews produce in prolific amounts is lawyers. it's like diarrhea, it runs in their jeans. one thing that lawyers learn is how to utilize past successes, in law speak it is called precedence. now remember to keep that word in your memory bank. we will use it again later. thank you kiddies. we all watch the lawyer shows on tv and should remember many quotes by lawyers where they say "in the case of shlabotnik vs o'reily blah, blah, blah.

well val my lady, that is exactly how they were able to build and have that chabad in that neighborhood. they learned very well the successes used by the minorities to nuzzle their way in to places they were formerly not allowed to go. hundreds of jews in the aclu din't hurt matters any either. ACLU= All Commies Love Us.

back to the question of israel. the us and england when ceding the land taht was taken from the arabs thought that the land was originally, forget the word JEWISH for a moment, israelite, should be given to the jews for a homeland. because it was their land before they were run out of it. they were there first, PRECEDENCE. yes they also shared that land with non jews.

fabs determination about the jewish leaning towards democrats is absolutely correct. the jews as a hole are socialistic and tend to team and form together. by socialistic i do not mean communistic, which the democratic party has become in my lifetime. the last democratic president i voted for was JFK. does that tell you anything? lbj was a dictator with an alligator mouth and a humming bird a$$, nixon wasn't much better, and karter was a total piece of toilet paper and i could do a 20 page disertation on klinton. when klinton turned the other cheek, and i don't mean monica's, in '93, that was an open invitation to the muslims to do what ever they want to whoever they want. what a pa he was. no we didn't have any wars while he was potus but look at the trail of destruction he left behind.

to me the democratic party has no morals, no heart, no soul and no conscience. now thats the party, i'm not talking individuals here.

back to the good stuff. the twins win. beat the sox.

fabsroman

07-26-2006, 09:25 PM

Billy,

Damn good post. Thanks for all the info with the exception of precedence. I already knew about precedence.

Valigator

07-26-2006, 09:34 PM

Now that was funny Billy, dont care who you are...

Tell us some more:p

BILLY D.

07-26-2006, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by fabsroman
Billy,

Damn good post. Thanks for all the info with the exception of precedence. I already knew about precedence.

fabs

i knew that you were cognizant of that fact but other folks don't know. thats why i included it.

by the views of this topic i can tell more people are reading it than val, you and me.

also thank you for the compliment. like i've told val, i didn't spend three years in the seventh grade for nothing. :eek:

BILLY D.

07-26-2006, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by Valigator
Now that was funny Billy, dont care who you are...

Tell us some more:p

pretty lady

now i could read into that and and say, " you say you don't care who i are or could you mean what i are".

i can tell you what i are in a hurry. i'm a straight, roman catholic, conservative gun owner. need more?

i'm a father of 5, with 6 grandchildren and 3 great grandchildren.

i can write on any topic, some may be personal experience while some may be from research work. my only default in this area is i don't tend to differentiate strongly enough between the two.

by the way, journalism was one of my favorite subjects in high school. i can always give you the who, what, when, wheres, and whys.

and after a house full of youngin's ya get to be a pretty good story teller also.

Cal Sibley

07-27-2006, 06:45 PM

It is said that time heals all wounds, but it's doubtful that applies in Mideast politics. When I first started to work in Saudi Arabia it didn't take long for me to be branded a "Crusader." It matters not that they've been over for almost a thousand years, or that we didn't even exist as a people then. The only things here were small bands of Indians and Mexicans, both primitive societies, but nontheless I was still a crusader. I guess to their minds that's as valid today as then. My first trip to a Riyadh bookstore to buy an atlas produced books where every map of Israel had been blackened out (by hand). I sort of understood why all the pictures of scanty clad women waving from the decks of boats had been blackened out by the same method. You're not to make an opinion of what is good or bad. Some local Imam will make it for you. Our problems with the Islamic world today extend far beyong Israel. For most of the 2,000 years since Christ
died, the Islamics have been calling the shots on the world scene. Our western type societies are johnny come latelys. The
Muslims in the middle east are again flexing their muscles, and I frankly don't believe it matters who the scapegoat is. The US will do as nicely as Israel. The "evil satan" will raise hackles just as much as the "zionists" today. I see no way of living with these people short of an all out war. It's said the two major problems we face are religion and politics. Here we have, not one, but both. Well, that's my take on it for better or worse. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

skeet

07-28-2006, 06:20 PM

As I have stated a couple of times in the past...the Arabs as a group of people, who are lead by a Theocracy and tribalism also do not want anyone in the world who is not born muslim to convert...They want the rest of the peoples in the world dead and the world to be run as it was a thousand years ago. Those people were smart and if not for the fact there was so much tribalistic hatred and distrust would still be running the world as it was before the Crusades. They knew the world was round and had libraries of up to a million books at a time when a large library in Europe would include as many as a dozen or so books no one could read. Also remember that the Jews are, like the Arabs, a society you are born into. You can practice the Jewish religion but you really aren't a jew unless born one. This being said I feel that backing the Jewish state in the middle east has cost us much monetarily as well as the hatred and distrust of over a billion arabs. I personally feel that if the arabs ever decide to put their differences aside and fight together, that the jews will start a nuclear war that will envelope the entire world. That would be their last defense. There is, in effect no discernable difference between the jews and the arabs(both semetic people) other than the fact of religion. And a lot of the reason for the strife going on now is to take the heat off the Iranians for a while as they continue to develop their atomic arsenal

Valigator

07-28-2006, 06:37 PM

Thank you for your input, man that means the world to me...I gotta tell ya I am grappling every day with the religion aspect of this war...all I am getting is that it was prophesied, and this is what is was suppose to be, now as a Christian I was taught that man was given "choice" only man could determine what and how he was suppose to enter into heaven...I wasnt taught that the Jews were suppose to bring us into the Apocalypse wasnt taught that the religion of Jews and Muslims were to bring us to our downful. I was taught that we had ten commandments...we were suppose to abide by those ten commandments and we were pretty much suppose to be alright. I wasn't taught that the Jews were going to rain down hell on earth because of 2 soldiers at a checkpoint. What does that mean to all the other soldiers that have died ? Something isnt right here...something doesnt feel good, and if you wanna know the truth..I dont totally trust the Israel's and why they have done what they have done...something just doesnt feel right here...

Valigator

07-28-2006, 06:58 PM

and while I am at it, I have worked my entire life to raise my grandchildren, which are not here yet, play with my bird-dogs, and even breed a few, paid my taxes, stood up for the underdog, and in the prime of life going after the bad guys to children...hid my money, paid my taxes, worked my butt off, literally planned my entire future, and your telling me its, God's will? Well I got news for you? God told me to be a good person and help my fellow man every step of my life, but some of you are telling me...oh no...this was propesised and your %hit out of luck...I dont think so...I am sick and tired of doing the right thing...and all of a sudden, my world comes to an end because someone wrote it hundreds of years ago....well if you wanna believe in that GOD go for it, I am not ready to accept it.....and between you and me, God has greater things in store for me than this...

Valigator

07-28-2006, 07:14 PM

In summary, our Nephite apocalypse does not teach us to calculate the day and hour of the end and await its coming on hilltops. It does not require us to fatalistically ignore duty or science. Rather, it restores high moral vision when meaning loses its sight. And its enduring element is to pour hope and courage into the midst of despair.

Slim-Zippy

07-31-2006, 06:23 AM

The dictators and Imams have used Isreal and the "West" as an excuse for all there problems as a way to keep control of the population and keep their power and position. It is always easier to teach hate than reason, because hate is only about emotion and not thought. If you control the media and it is propagandizing hate of the "West" constantly then hate is what a population will believe and act on. If you add the twist of religous leaders teaching hate to it then it really becomes
complicated to find a non-violent solution to the problem.

You cannot appease ingrained blind hatred of the Jewish people or the West. When Bush set out to democratize Iraq and Afghanistan he threatened the power and control of every dictator and religous leader in the middle east. They then declared Holy War on us as whole not just Isreal. If we stand around with our political parties fighting each other over power and not committed to solidarity, then we will have more acts of terrorism in our country.

8X56MS

08-06-2006, 08:34 PM

From the git go, I supported Israel's right to strike back. Now I am even more firmly of the opinion that they need to really take names, and kick butt. Iran should get a bit of it too now.

Valigator

08-14-2006, 08:22 PM

Source: Foreign Policy in Focus (8-8-06)

[Conn Hallinan is a foreign policy analyst for Foreign Policy In Focus (online at www.fpif.org) and a lecturer in journalism at the University of California, Santa Cruz.]

History is the story we tell ourselves in the present about the past. But how we punctuate the story—where we put the periods, the commas, and the ellipses—depends not on everything that happened, but on who is telling the story, where we stand in the narrative, and what outcome we want.

As Rebecca Goldstein notes in her study of the philosopher Baruch Spinoza, there are “powerful tendencies in each of us toward developing a view of the truth that favors the circumstances into which we happen to have been born.”

Israel and Hezbollah both have stories to tell based on their particular circumstances....

There is at least one historical example that suggests a way to short circuit the narrative loop.

The Lore of the Irish

For just under 837 years, the English and the Irish have warred against one another. Terrible things have been done in those long centuries, and the Irish tell endless stories about them. They know when it began: On Aug. 23, 1170, Richard de Clare, Earl of Pembroke—“Strongbow” to the Irish—waded ashore with 200 Norman knights and 1,000 men-at-arms near Waterford on Ireland's southeast coast. He took the town in five days, then marched north and smashed an Irish army near Dublin.

Thus began the longest war in European history. For more than 40 generations the Irish seethed at the occupation, rising up time and again to fling themselves in bloody rage at armies they could not hope to defeat.

The Irish call it “the long sorrow,” and they can recite it with the precision of a rosary: “Red” Hugh O'Neill's war against Elizabeth I; The First Land War; the Great Rising of ‘98; the Tithe War; Catholic Emancipation; the Fenian revolt; the Second Land War; the Easter Rebellion.

The stories, poems, and songs that the Irish wrote about these events taught each generation about courage and resistance, but also about hatred, tribalism, and a certain kind of suicidal madness the poet William Butler Yeats called “an excess of love.”....

What are the stories Hezbollah will tell about Bint Jbail, which the most powerful army in the Middle East was unable to secure after almost a week of savage fighting? As the English did to Dublin in 1916, the Israelis flattened the place with artillery and bombs, but that will not extinguish the narrative that Hezbollah held out against the mighty Golani Brigade.

What are the stories the Israelis will tell about life in the shelters? Will they conjure up the spirit of Masada, the Jewish people's equivalent of the Easter Rebellion, albeit one that ended a good deal more tragically? Will they tell themselves that once again tiny Israel is beset by enemies on all sides?

Both of these narratives will end up with a lot of people dead and homeless, economies derailed, and infrastructures shattered. They may even lead to the unthinkable: a regional war. They will pump up a tribalism that says, “We are special, we are better, we are owed this, and the wrongs we do to others are canceled out by the wrongs others have done to us.”

The Good Friday Agreement

History does not mark all roads, and all analogies are fraught with danger. Like the Oracle of Delphi, Clio the muse of history predicts what we want her to predict. But the recent history of Ireland is worth some study.

Starting in 1992, the principal antagonists in Northern Ireland began to talk with one another, in large part because majorities in both communities were fed up with the sectarian violence. It was not easy, but the talks led to the 1998 Good Friday Agreement, which has kept the peace for the most part between warring Catholics and Protestants. It was a process the United States helped along, unlike the role the United States is playing in the current Middle East crisis.

To reach an agreement, the parties had to get past a series of myths.

The first myth is that force will get people to do what you want them to do. It never did, it never will. If Qassams and Katyushas have not caused the Israelis to throw in the towel, why would Israel think that bombs and artillery would force Hezbollah or Hamas to give up? To suggest that Arabs will react any differently to violence than the Jews or the Irish is simply racist.

Rather than terrorizing the Lebanese and the Palestinians, the current war has united both communities. The collective punishment that Israel is inflicting on Gaza and Lebanon simply produces collective rage at both Israel and the United States. A poll by the Beirut Center for Research found that 89% of Lebanese do not consider the United States an “honest broker,” and 87% support Hezbollah's “retaliatory rocket attacks.”

Even al-Qaida, which normally refers to Shiites as “dogs” and “a thorn in the throat of Islam,” has called for aiding the resistance in Lebanon. Indeed, Israel has managed to drive Shiite Hezbollah into an alliance with Sunni Hamas.

The second myth is that you can design someone else's country. You cannot tell the Lebanese what their internal politics should be, nor can you tell the Palestinians that they can have a nation but only if it is riddled with Jewish settlements and surrounded by a wall. Such a Palestinian state is not a country but an open-air prison, much like Gaza is today.

All the settlements will have to go, the borders returned to the 1967 Green Line, and Jerusalem will have to be shared. The occupation is illegal, immoral, and clearly not in Israel's interest, despite being of its making. Instead of listening to David Ben-Gurion, who urged Israel to withdraw from the lands conquered in 1967, Tel Aviv established the settlements and kept East Jerusalem.

In return, the Palestinians will have to abandon the right of return and accept a deal that compensates them for the lands they lost in 1948. Regardless of the injustice behind the original expulsions, asking Israel to dismantle itself unilaterally is a non-starter. Israel is a country, if for no other reason than the Holocaust made it so.

But Israel cannot continue to hide behind the argument that it won't negotiate with “terrorists.” If England could talk to Sinn Fein and the Irish Republican Army, Israel can to talk to Hezbollah and Hamas. Israel recently held a two-day seminar on the 60 th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel by the Jewish resistance. The blast killed 92 people. One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

Some in the Middle East will resist such a settlement, just as some hardliners in the Catholic and Protestant communities in Northern Ireland reject the Good Friday Agreement. But in Northern Ireland those forces have been increasingly marginalized. For all its fragility, the pact is generally holding.

Despite eight centuries of occupation, and 24 years of civil war, Irish on both sides are downplaying their respective nationalist narratives and finding common ground.

The world does not need more tribal allegiances and stories that tell us it is all right to blow up pizza parlors or flatten towns in Southern Lebanon. It needs solutions anchored in the real world and a moral order that sees no difference between a dead Jewish child and a dead Arab child. The living weep for them equally, and no pain is greater or less because of the weight of history.

BILLY D.

08-15-2006, 02:40 PM

val

this is from a few years ago. i thought it applicable.

"we, the jews, do not rejoice in victories. we rejoice when a new kind of cotton is grown or strawberries bloom in israel."

another one?

"we have always said, that in our war with the arabs, we have a secret weapon. we have no where else to go and we have no alternative."

these words were spoken by golda meir. if you don't know about golda, she was born in kiev russia and emigrated to the u.s. with her parents and was raised in milwaukee wisconsin. she was a school teacher here in the states and moved to israel in her late years.

not a pretty lady, her beauty was in her heart and her mind.

fabsroman

08-15-2006, 03:21 PM

Billy and Val,

I couldn't agree more with Conn Hallinin. That is my viewpoint on this entire thing. Both sides have done things that are wrong, and I do not blame the Arabs for hating the US. They have grown up hating the US for things that were done before my lifetime.

At the end of all this, what ever happened to Iran's nuclear program. That was all over the news until this Hezzbollah stuff happened. Did we forget about it? Was this action by Hezzbollah done just to make us look the other way at Iran's nuclear program? I hope not, but who knows.

Steverino

08-16-2006, 10:46 AM

The Iran nuclear development and enrichment program has certainly not gone away...probably was even accelerated over the past month but that doesn't make as good of news as the visuages of bloodied bodies and colorful explosions in Lebanon, does it?

Just as in the past, should (read WHEN) the US and Israel feel that the nuclear threat has reached a point of no return, you will see the Israel airforce (bought and paid for with US tax dollars) take out said reactors.

As we've all recently seen demonstrated, Israel doesn't seem to give a rat's poop about the 'International Community's' opinion of them when they feel compelled to act.

fabsroman

08-17-2006, 01:01 AM

Bombing Iran might be a little more risky than bombing Lebanon.

Steverino

08-17-2006, 08:55 AM

Time will tell but I personally believe that should diplomatic incentives/embargos fail with slowing Iran's quest for nuclear arms development, we will most certainly see Israel bomb Iran's nuclear development facilities. It's not "If' it's a matter of "When." With Iran and Syria's continued funding of Hezbollah, why...it wouldn't surprise me one iota to see a few other "non-nuclear" type facilities targeted as well. Kinda-sorta like that little thing in Libya some time back. As memory recalls a few "stray" bombs fell in areas that surprised some.

Remember, we have Iran's new radical raghead leader calling for Israel to be 'wiped off the face of the world.'

There's no way Israel or the US will be sitting back and watching Iran's continued uranium enrichment development program unfold without action. Israel, as in the past, will be the vessel utilized in the Middle East to sustain joint US and Israel policy.

DON WALKUP

08-31-2006, 08:36 PM

iran, north korea, the plo, the hezbollah better be glad i'm not pres/king/ruler/commander in chief ...

i'd have the sky darkened 24 hrs a day dropping 500 pounders, gas air bombs, tactical nukes, napalm or whatever it takes, on them until there was nothing left. no negotiating, only total surrender or total destruction.

israel should have kept going!

:mad:

8X56MS

08-31-2006, 10:25 PM

The French and the Italians, two of the world's most feared armies are arriving in Lebanon to help the UNIFIL force bring peace to the country.

Note that Kofi says that they will NOT be disarming hezbollah, and that without an OK from the hezbollah controlled Lebanese government, they won't be on the Syrian boarder to stop the resupply of Hezbollah.

What they WILL be doing, is aiming their weapons in the direction of Israel. Remember that according to Kofi and the gang over at the UN, its the Izzy's that are the bad guys here.

fabsroman

08-31-2006, 11:07 PM

I wonder where the USA will stand if Italy and France are fighting Israel? That situation would really have me worried.

BILLY D.

09-01-2006, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by fabsroman
I wonder where the USA will stand if Italy and France are fighting Israel? That situation would really have me worried.

WHY

Neither country would do diddly squat. the french already surrendered to the leabonese without firing a shot.

the un has already said they will not disarm hezbollah and the roads are open from syria into lebanon for the resupply to hezbollah and hamas. and the frogs will sit idly by and pick their noses like they usually do.

the middle east can be thankful right now that the old israeli cabinet is not in charge or lebanon would not be fit for a parking lot now. they would have flattened it.

i do tend to sympathize with the lebonese to an extent. but they brought on a lot of their own problems by electing weak politicians and providing a safe harbor for hezbollah. they can be thankful that israels foreign minister zipi livni is in power right at the present and if she doesn't get her s#!t in one sock she isn't going to to be around much longer. she is no golda meir.

and speaking of golda she once told the world, when speaking of the israeli military successes, "we israelis have a secret weapon, we have nowhere else to go and have no alternative".

one other thing about golda, did you know she was educated in the usa and was a school teacher in milwaukee before she moved to israel? she was an immigrant from the ukraine in russia and came to america with her parents.

history 101 for the evening. thank you students for listening.

shalom.

RASteele

09-15-2006, 01:41 PM

I'm sorry, but I have a long memory and I hold a grudge. Israel can go back to the Stone Age along with the rest of the Terrorists from the Middle Eastern Asia countries, as far as I'm concerned!

If one of my "buddies" started throwing rocks at my son's bike while he was riding down the street, busting-up the bike and putting my son in the hospital, I wouldn't care what that buddy's "reasons" were, I'd better not see that "buddy" ever again.

Then, if that same "buddy" stole items from my home, then claimed it was my fault because I didn't lock-up my house well enough,... Well, you get the picture.

On June 8, 1967, Israel launched multiple attacks on the U.S.S. Liberty while it was in international waters, resulting in the 34 K.I.A.s and 173 W.I.A.s of U.S. Sailors. Richard Helms, Director of the CIA in 1967, stated (paraphrased) that there was no way Israel didn't and couldn't know that it was a U.S. Naval vessel. ( http://www.ussliberty.org/report/report.htm )

In the early 2000s, it came to light that an intelligence cell of the Israel government had been stealing U.S. Government secrets. Their response to the accusation: (again, paraphrased) Well, it's not stealing if the information we took had been mishandled prior to us taking it... ( http://www.amconmag.com/2005_06_20/feature.html )

If a government's military knowly and willingly takes American lives, that government's country should be an enemy until *many* years of butt-kissing and gift-giving have gone by (as Germany and Japan have done). (Strikes one, two, and three...) Then, if that same country steals secrets from the U.S. after amends are made for the previous action, all bets should be off, all alliances should be cut. (The batter just spit on the umpire and is being ejected from the game!)

Okay, sure, 'The enemy of my enemy is my friend'. But what happens when the 'enemy of my enemy' acts like an enemy?