recomended whitetail and muley cartridge.

[wiredneck]

I am looking at buying a tc encore 50 cal. muzzleloader and because of the ability to change barrels im gonna buy either a 30-06 a 300 or a 308 barrel for hunting whitetails in wisconsin and also muleys in wyoming where the shots may be upwards of 500 yards. I was wondering which barrel you would recommend for flat shooting but yet small enough for the whitetail. Any other caliber sugesstions would be greatly appreciated.

[BradC]

I have not hunted with a T/C yet but I wonder what the recoil would be like with the 300. I think if I were looking for an all arond deer caliber from these three it would be hard to pass up the ole 06. There is no denying the usefulness of this caliber and you will not have the recoil issues you might with a 300. While an 06 is capable of shots as long as 500 yds, if these were the norm I might be more inclined to go with the 300. However, I feel that most hunters, myself included, cannot reliably shoot this far and should make every attempt to close the distance considerably to 300 or so, perfect for the06.

Brad

[rem 700]

30-06 :)

[Baylian]

I had a .300 Win. Mag. and it kicked like a mule. I hated it. I never shot it. It sat in my closet and collected dust until I paid someone about $200 to take it off my hands. ( I sold it for $500 but it was worth $565 plus the Barnes muzzle break I put on it.) The muzzle blast combined with the recoil made me flinch. A very bad thing when it comes to hitting your target.

Look at the trajectories and sectional densities of the .270 Win. bullets vs. the .30-06. The .270 shoots flatter and hits hard enough to take either species of deer out to any range you can hit them with it. Another good flat shooting caliber would be the .25-06. You don't need a cannon for deer.

Just my 2 cents. Good hunting. TJ :D

[L. Cooper]

wiredneck, what is your shooting and hunting experience? I would recommend very different things to hunters of very different levels of experience.

[PJgunner]

I have never played with an Encore, so this may be more conjecture on my part than anything else. How heavy is the Encore? I have the feeling is is a fairly light weight rifle. Therefore, I would rule out the .300 Win. Mag. even though it is one of my favorite cartridges.
This leaves the 30-06 and .308 Win. which are, at least in factory ammo, just horses of a different color. I recently did a short test comparing 180 gr. Silvertip ammo in both the .308 and 30-06. In a 22" barrel, the .308 was actually faster. The 06 was a bit closer in velocity in a 24" barrel compared to the 22" .308, and finally, in a 26" barreled Ruger #1 the 06 came within 50 FPS of advertised velocity. I haven't had a chance to compare other brands with 180 gr. bullets yet, but will sometime down the road. So, the choice of either the .308 or 06 is push compared to shove.
However, if you handload your ammo, the 30-06 can be loaded up to be close to or equal factory .300 H&H ammo. :eek: You have to be quite careful though as loading for a single shot is somewhat different than for a bolt action. Most obvious pressure signs in abolt action don't even show up when loading for the one-shooters. I base this on handloading for 17 Ruger #1 rifles in various calibers. This is where careful case head measurements and a close eye on chronograph speeds can make or break your day.
Regarding the .308. It is more than capable of reaching out an touching something. :cool: Not quite 500 yards, but the two longest shots I ever made on Mule Deer were 250 yards here in Arizona and 427 Paces on a 195 pound buck in Nevada. I don't remember the load for the nevada deer other than the bullet was the 150 gr. Sierra Pro-hunter, although they didn't call them that way back then, and the powder was H-335. (It was cheap and it worked. :D ) The Arizona deer was shot with a 165 gr. Speer Hot-core over 49.0 gr. of W-760 for a velocity of 2550 FPS from the 18.5" barrel of a Ruger RSI. The same load delivers 2610 FPS from a 22" barrel, FWIW. There are betetr powders for the .308 than W-760, but that's just about the only load that very fussy rifle will shoot well. :rolleyes:
Just one addition here. That long shot was at a 195 pound (dressed) deer than one of my hunting partners had wounded and was getting away. I will be the first to admit that it was strictly a "Hail Mary" shot. Lucky for me and unlucky for the deer, however the point is the .308 can do the job way out yonder.
I've hunted several of the western states most of which are quite open, and other than the two deer mentioned, most of the deer I've killed in California, Nevada, Idaho, Utah and Arizona could just as easily been taken with an open sighted Winchester 94 in 30-30. :eek: In fact the last two deer I've taken here in AZ were at 35 and 50 yards in fairly open areas. I used that .308 Ruger on those two.
Paul B.

[JimHnSTL]

.280, gots the flatness and the retained energy downrange.

[Rapier]

The Encore might not meet your requirement, out of the box, accuracy at 500 yards. I have worked on several Encores for shooters and have two friends that have a similar setup as that you describe. With factory ammo and the centerfire rifle barrels, they get 3 - 4 inch groups at 100. With reloads they get about 1.5 - 2 inch groups. The owners have been pretty disapointed with the idea VS their actual results.

I would advise that you talk to some folks that own an Encore rifle before you dive off into the deep end. You might be better off with two guns in the long run.
Ed

[buckhunter]

I pretty much tell anyone who will listen you just cannot wrong with either a 308, 270, 280 or 30-06. Pretty much the same in any event. My personal choice is a handloaded 280.

[Rocky Raab]

All the posts above are good. I'd pick the .308, but there's no reason to avoid any of the others (except the 300 Mangleum). Any of them would be fine.

I'll just add that just because you can see deer at 500+ yards out here doesn't mean you have to shoot at them that far away. There are plenty of deer closer in.

[Drew_CarreyAB]

I own a T/C Encore and I love it!! :) I have the .223 26" Heavy Barrel, .300WM 26" Heavy barrel, and the .50Cal MZ..... The .223 goes 1/2 MOA @ 300, my .300 goes 1/2MOA @ 100(75gr RL-22 w/165SST). The MZ goes 1/2" @ 100 as well but using .45 cal bullets make the group look tighter LOL. This rifle is not customized(yet) all I have done is run some factory ammo through the CF's (not the best groups, I admit) and then handloaded the brass. BTW, with the 26" BBls and a scope, my rifle weighs in at 9Lbs. I have found a site that, if you decide to buy a T/C, will assist you in making adjustments to the T/C to suit your liking. I.E trigger pull, hinge pin adjustments, and stuff like that.Bellm T/C Website (http://www.bellmtcs.com/forum)

[Andy L]

I dont know why Rocky would make the statement, any of the above, except the 300?

It dont take a cannon to kill deer. And, you dont have to shoot 500 yards. But, you stated you wanted to shoot over 500 yards, and of all the rounds listed, the 300 will take over and outshine them all from there on out. No doubt about it.

Mine has recoil too, but its nothing a normal man cant handle. Especially when shooting at game. I dont see it as an issue. Some may? Hell, my 5"10", 145lb, 12 yr old boy shoots mine and doesnt complain.

I love my 25-06 and use it alot for deer, but I rarely shoot over 250 yards around here. I have a 280 that I like as well, but for the same thing. But, if Im going to the bean fields and think I may want to take a poke out over a quarter, the 300 Win cant be beat by any of them.

Dont let these guys scare you. Its a fine, fine cartridge and should you make a less than perfect hit, your most likely still gonna get your deer. (please dont anyone start one of the old bs internet arguments about condoning bad shooting, just stating a fact)

Andy

Edit: I re read Rockys post and with his play on the word Magnum, I assume its either about the recoil or the meat damage. Neither is a valid argument against a 300. Especially compared to the other calibers above at ranges over 500 yards. Actually, if I could only keep one rifle for deer, I would sell my 25-06, 243, 280, 308 and 30-06 and keep the 300 for all the reasons listed above.

[quigleysharps4570]

Originally posted by L. Cooper
wiredneck, what is your shooting and hunting experience? I would recommend very different things to hunters of very different levels of experience.

Curious myself. Most these days seem to want a rifle that they can take a 500 yard or longer shot with. Average Joe don't have access to a range to practice those shots...so it's a "Hail Mary" come hunting season.

[Rocky Raab]

Andy, quigley answered it for me.

I've been a long-standing non-magnum advocate. I'm not quite anti-magnum, but I'm definitely a non-magnum kind of guy.

There simply are very, very few instances where a magnum anything is absolutely necessary - and also very few people who can take advantage of those few opportunities. Paper ballistics simply do not equate to real-world field results. A cartridge that has a couple of inches less drop and a hundred feet per second more speed at a given range means absolutely nothing when the shooter has to contend with unknown range, unknown wind, moving game and mirage - not to mention a hammering heart, wheezing lungs and a flood of adrenalin.

Add all that into a compact, lightweight rifle that really whacks the shooter with blast plus recoil, inspires at least a dollop of subconscious fear AND is expensive to feed with factory ammo; you have a package that seldom gets shot in practice (at ANY range) . It's a combination that I frankly cannot recommend to a stranger. So I don't.

[JimHnSTL]

Originally posted by Rocky Raab
Andy, quigley answered it for me.

I've been a long-standing non-magnum advocate. I'm not quite anti-magnum, but I'm definitely a non-magnum kind of guy.

There simply are very, very few instances where a magnum anything is absolutely necessary - and also very few people who can take advantage of those few opportunities. Paper ballistics simply do not equate to real-world field results. A cartridge that has a couple of inches less drop and a hundred feet per second more speed at a given range means absolutely nothing when the shooter has to contend with unknown range, unknown wind, moving game and mirage - not to mention a hammering heart, wheezing lungs and a flood of adrenalin.

Add all that into a compact, lightweight rifle that really whacks the shooter with blast plus recoil, inspires at least a dollop of subconscious fear AND is expensive to feed with factory ammo; you have a package that seldom gets shot in practice (at ANY range) . It's a combination that I frankly cannot recommend to a stranger. So I don't.
that sums it up as well as i have ever seen it.

[L. Cooper]

And that is why I asked the question. If a hunter is an honestly good long range shooter with the tools and the experience to do it properly, then specialized long range rifles and cartridges make sense. But only if........

The rest of us should just listen to what Rocky said.

[PJgunner]

Originally posted by quigleysharps4570
Curious myself. Most these days seem to want a rifle that they can take a 500 yard or longer shot with. Average Joe don't have access to a range to practice those shots...so it's a "Hail Mary" come hunting season.

I think that 99 percent of the time, I would agree with you. However, in certain areas, that 500 yard shot just might be the one opportunity you get. A prime example is here in Eastern Arizona, my favorite elk hunting area is dotted with some very wide open meadows. Probably a park would be a better term. Once the shooting starts, the elk head out into these "parks" and bed down for the day way out in the middle. Try sneaking up on a herd of elk bedded down in an area maybe two miles wide and 5 or 6 miles long, all wide open with no cover.
Three years ago, I got lucky and was able to belly crawl to the last available cover, a very scrawny bush. My laser range finder said the closest cow elk was 530 yards out. (I had a cow tag.) I wa certainly wishing I had a bull tag about then, because the herd bull was well over 400 class. :(
Anyway, my rifle was a Winchester M70 in .300 Win. Mag., I'd been practicing two days a week from field positions for a bit over three months and I knew exactly where to hold over at that distance. Shooting from a sitting position, I dropped the elk with one shot. I never heard the report of the rifle, nor did I feel the recoil, although I knew both were there.
I am fortunate in that I have a range where I can shoot to 1,000 yards should I choose to do so. However, I do most of my shooting from field positions on the silhouette range out to 500 meters. Off hand to 100 yards and sitting and kneeling from 200 to 500 meters.
I did not draw my favorite deer and elk areas this year, so when the weather clears up some, (we've had one hell of a rainy season) I'll be getting out to scout the new (to me anyway) areas. Then, I'll decide what to take and what shooting regimen I'll need to work on.
Paul B.

[Rocky Raab]

Great story, PJ and a great shot, too.

I would be remiss, however, if I didn't point out that in the exact same circumstances (laser-ranged stationary target, well-knwon trajectory, well-practiced shooter, good rest, etc) you would also have gotten that cow elk with a .308, .270, .280 or any number of other rounds. The Magnum cartridge wasn't what got you the elk, it was you.

[Andy L]

:rolleyes:

[grayghost]

.280 gets my vote. I've taken several Elk, Bear, Mulies, Antelope, many Whitetails, exotics and just returned from Africa. 10 of my 16 animals were taken with the .280/160gr Nosler Accubonds. All but a Black Wildebeast were taken with one shot, and he was hit with 3 fatal shots: shoulder; heart and both lungs. They are as tough as it comes for a large animal. Granted, my longest shot in Africa with the .280 was 297 yards, but I have taken one Elk, one Bear and several speed goats (Pronghorn Antelope) at over 500 yards, including a Whitetail at 600 yards. PJgunner put it very well, and like reality is: sometimes your best or only chance is farther than we'd like. It took me a number of years to develop my shooting skills at longer ranges. My fault. I could have shortened my learning curve by going to the range often. I didn't. I practice 3-4 times a year and learned by taking longer and longer shots over time. Taking only shots that I was comfortable with. Do I miss? Hell yeah. But usually they are mid range shots where the animal moves at the moment of trigger pull or I just plain miss. If I hit everything I aimed at, no one would believe me; I'd be touted a liar, game would fear me and run off the moment they heard me pull out of my driveway and I'd eventually get bored with hunting...something I hope never to do. Kidding aside, there are a number of good cartridges available, but pick one you like for your own reasons. Keep in mind that if you go too light on bullet weight, all the velocity in the world can change performance at 500 yards. Do you want to kick the door down, or just knock? I love bullets in the 160 weight class. They may be a little slow at 300-500 yards in non mag calibers, but I've had them break shoulders and exit the far side at over 500 yards on Elk and Bear. Here's a pic of a Speer Grand Slam, 160 grain in .280 caliber. Cartridge was once offered by Speer in their Nitrex ammo. They are no longer available (dammit). I put 3 of these through both lungs at 500 yards (rangefinder) with complete pass through. At a guessed range of 575 yards, I stopped him with a shoulder shot. This bullet broke his left shoulder (bone included in pic), exited his right shoulder muscle (no bone) and due to the loss of velocity, snagged elastic membrane and snapped back into the wound channel where I recovered it. Many folks overlook the .280, but it has been my favorite cartridge since 1981. Good hunting, grayghost

[grayghost]

160 grain Speer Grand Slam in .280 Nitrex ammo.

[model 70]

can't go wrong with the ol' .270win for both.

[RUMLUVER]

I think too much emphisis is placed on the word "magnum" when it comes to rifle cailbers. To me the magnum moniker is meant to inspire a sence of wonder lust in someone that is looking to be sold on something instead of knowing what they want.Giving credit where it is due no tool will replace talent, skill, and practice. Riflles are tools we use to hunt and they aren't very useful unless the owner learns to utilize his tool to it's full extent or intended purpose. I also hesitate to recomend cailbers that are to large for the intended purpose and skill level. Also I would like to get the literal definition of "need" when it comes to rifles or tools when it comes to hunting of big game. Because if we based our choice of weapons for the hunting of big game on need I think that there would be alot of successful archers that would question the need of a rifle at all. To me rifle cailbers are like spices use what you want and as much as you want but be sure you only use as much as you can handle because you wont like the end result if you are not honest with yourself. As for me I learned to shoot out to 500 meters with a M16 and open sights and don't have any hesitation to shoot to that distance and beyond with my rifles now. By the way if anyone is curious I am currently in love with and using with great succsess my .338 RUM. I am using this rifle for my antelope hunt this fall and hopefully my .264WM will be finished in time for deer season in November!

[RUMLUVER]

I forgot to add that my ideal deer round would be a 6.5-06. As far as Rocky's Mangleum statement it has been my personal experience that poor bullet selection and shot placemeant lead to excesive damage not so much cartridge selection. The worst meat damage I have been witness to came from a Sierra Gameking out of a 26-05 pushed fast and impacted too close. I have shot deer with 3 out of the 4 Ultra Mags at distances from 80 too about 400 yards and have had very little to no damage at all using swift bonded bullets and the all copper Barnes.

[Rocky Raab]

Actually, I agree with that, RUMLOVER.

Far too often I get questions like, "I can get 3000 fps with a 180-gr bullet in my Mangleum rifle. What kind of speed would I get with a 125-grainer? I'd like to shoot elk and need all the velocity I can get so I can hold right on at any range out to 1000 yards."

No amount of rational argument will dissuade them from doing it, either. And then they'll come back and say. "I shot an elk at 50 yards and the bullet blew up on the hide! I never did find that elk. Those Brand X bullets are crap!"

No, they aren't. But the reloader's THINKING was crap. Magnums are fine (if you're inclined to such things) but they DEMAND the use of heavy, stoutly-constructed premium bullets. You are doomed to failure or at least very disappointing results if you insist on loading them with lightweight, cup-and-core bullets at maximum speeds. The shorter the range, the worse the results, too.

[RUMLUVER]

Rocky,

I have found through extencive testing that rational arguments and statements only work with rational people. Also I agree that there fewer crappy buullets and more crappy thinking caps!

[Rocky Raab]

Sometimes, all you can say is...

[Rapier]

Rum, Ya aint all bad, with a list that starts with the 6.5-06.... I have been preaching that cat since 1968. :-)

You guys been reading yer own site... Do not confuse me with the facts..... yaba, yaba, blah, blah.

No really, go get a nice single malt on the rocks.... it will all be better shortly.
Ed

[RUMLUVER]

Rapier,

I am also giving the .260AI serious consideration for my next rifle project after my .264 WM is done.

[skeet]

I do have an Encore in 30-06 that I got a year or so ago. It is a fairly accurate rifle to shoot at an inch(5 shots) or so if I do my part. It is also an easy rifle to play around with..and it sure isn't too light. Mine weighs about 8.2 lbs with an older Burris fullfield 2X7 scope and mounts. The ammo I have been shooting is Federal 150 gr and 165 gr factory . The 150 is more accurate but I think the 165 may just be a better bullet for an all around hunting weight. Going to get around to working up a load or two for it...but don't need to with the way it shoots factory. And yeah, you can get those bbls in all those factory caliber mentioned...but if you're in the middle of nowhere you can almost always get 06 ammo. A lot of small town stores don't carry 280, 300 Mangleum(Rocky's word but I like it)..oh and the 06 is much easier to PRACTICE with than the Mangleums too...for the average Joe..not the great guys here on HC. BTW my longest shot on a game animal was an Antelope at a lasered range of 465 yds. That is a really long range(I had it figured at 425 -450). The 130 gr 270 round rolled him right over. I can tell you guys..that is as far as I ever intend to shoot.. I was in Montana and I thought that speed goat was in the next county! :D