Self defense round

[Tater]

I know about Glaser Safety Slugs, but I was wondering if there was any other good self defense-type ammo out there. I live in an apartment so, if I did have to use my gun, I would have to seriously concern myself with missing and the round going through the paper-thin walls. I doubt I'll ever have to use it but I figure it's better to be safe than sorry. Thanks.

[Adam Helmer]

Tater,

FIRST of all: DO NOT MISS! Seriously, you may consider a shotgun with fine shot such as #6 or #7.5 to keep the projectiles inside your dwelling.

I keep a .45 M1911 or a .357 Magnum as my house gun. I live in a very rural area, so the BG is at risk. If I miss, the dogs will "tree" the culprit for my final shot.

What caliber house gun do you now have? I would suggest that you go "center mass" on the Bad Guy (s) and let the exited slugs die in the far apartment walls. BGs tend to decelerate most pistol rounds.

Adam

[TreeDoc]

Aside from the Glazers, I'd strongly second Adam's opinion on the bird shot.

I have a Beretta 1201FP shotgun with the high cap mag tube and that's my "get to" gun. Bird shot is plenty to put the hurt on a BG but it should hang up in the dry wall as long as you are not at or close to point blank range.

[gregarat]

Good post!

Addam,
Would #6 or #7 shot be enough? Sure it wont cut through sheet rock. But would it stop a BG? I personaly use #4.

I actualy tested wall penitration with .45ACP 230Gr. Rem Gold Sabre "bonded" (the only SD ammo I had), at an abandon house on my buds property. It smasher through a thermostat, penetrated a sheetrock wall, richoched off wood molding in a closet, then dented the wall in the room where the closet exited. I want to try a "flying ashtray" in .45ACP to see if it has less penitration.

My guess it that 9mm FMJ is the worst Home defence round.

[Brant Buster]

At normal 'house' ranges if having to shoot a BG, #7 1/2 shot (ex., trap loads) will easily penetrate a trespasser's carotid artery, if aiming for the neck.

I also like a long-gun (shotgun) backed up by a handgun, in that order! One author I read says a handgun is for fighting your way back to your long gun. :eek:

[Tater]

I should have specified that I'm looking for a pistol round for either my .357 or my new XD-40

[skeet]

I happen to have a 45 auto for my short gun in the house...but the best house gun in my opinion is a nice short pump shotgun with 7 1/2 shot. I happen to have a Mossberg Stainless 590 riot gun that I got for 50 bucks in a 12 gun deal and it is a great house gun. Makes lots of noise when ya jack one in the chamber and I can tell ya that 7 1/2's at 15 ft aren't gonna let 'em walk away too steady for certain. My wife keeps her snake gun with her in the house. 2 speer shot loads and the rest are 110 gr HP 38 special. I told her to shoot for the eyes with the first 2...especially if it wasn't a snake:eek:

[Jack]

I'll vote for a load of 7 1/2's out of a pump shotgun.
For one thing, the distinctive noise of a pump being racked will scare off any sane intruder.
At in house ranges, a load of 7 1/2's will hit like a slug, and leave a bunch of pellets to be picked out of the carcass.
But, Tater wants a recommedation for 357 or what? 40 S&W?
In a handgun, I'd lean towards a light for caliber expanding bullet as something that might not penetrate 3 apartments.
I think Adam's advice (don't miss) is crucial.
One thing to remember: after you fire the first round in the dark, you will be totally blind from the flash, so repeat shots aren't as much use as you think.

[Brant Buster]

Go to the Corbon website and focus on the Glazer Safety slugs or Pow'r Ball loadings.

Admittedly I haven't read about any actual reports on BG's being blasted with a Pow'r Ball load in anything, but they look like they're guarenteed to expand - rapidly!!!!

As for the Glazer Slugs, I've only read of ONE INSTANCE where a BG survived being shot with one. But he will spend the rest of his life with only one lung left in his chest. ;)

Bet his criminal days are over!

[Baylian]

I suggest you obtain and and read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It is a great reference to this subject. Then you should go to ChuckHawks.com and read his articles. One article states that the .357 Mag Federal 125grain JHP has the best one shot stop percentage of any firearm period. 96%.

Good Hunting, TJ

[Baylian]

The article is under the "General Firearms and Shooting" page. It is called "Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm".

Good Hunting!!! TJ

[jmarriott]

Originally posted by Baylian
I suggest you obtain and and read Massad Ayoob's "In the Gravest Extreme". It is a great reference to this subject. Then you should go to ChuckHawks.com and read his articles. One article states that the .357 Mag Federal 125grain JHP has the best one shot stop percentage of any firearm period. 96%.

Good Hunting, TJ

What a good book and advise.

IN my self defense handgun i carry normally Federal hydroshock rounds. I would ONLY fire when i WAS going to hit the bad guy then EXTRA penetration would be minimum.

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

Excellent observation about MUZZLE FLASH blinding the home owner. One more thing, as Columbo would say, is the NOISE of firing any gun in a home will make you stone deaf! We ran a few operations in a "fun house" sans ear plugs and the sound of a .357 or 12 gauge will make your ears ring for a week.

One tactic to help is to roll the strong shoulder up to cover the strong side ear (for a two handed pistol grip) just prior to firing so after the shot, even if you are blind, you will have hearing in one ear. Hope this helps.

Adam

[Jack]

Adam, good point about the noise!
If you touch off a firearm inside once, you'll never forget it!
I've heard the bit of advice about closing one eye before shooting at night- supposedly so you'll retain some night vision, but, IME, that doesn't work at all.
Maybe ya gotta paint your eyelids black ;) but, hmmmmm, no, not gonna go there!

[Esox357]

I want to mention that don't have a false sense of security with birdshot in a shotgun. Two reasons for this. #1 is that it can go throw common household materials and injure your family/neighbor ect. #2 there is a reason why they call it bird shot. It is not the best for self defense, thus the reason for 00 or 000 buckshot. Believe it or not the 223 loaded with 55 grain tap rounds have less penetration that some handguns! Not saying that it would be ideal for clearing a house but I would stick with a handgun in 9mm, 40, 45 and find a load that will suit your needs. I would stay away from magsafe and glaser thats just me. Esox357.

[kt]

since the shotgun thing came up, i read an article a while back in an nra mag. the auther said, whatever you use on the trap range or dove field is a great house load. he stated that the popular 00 loads will either rip into the next room or jack up wires in the wall. i really would give a damn about the wires! i too think a shotgun is THE house gun.
but any who, pow'r balls are gaining a lot of well deserved popularity. when ammo lab would let you on there site for free i saw that they were one load that was very consistent. its a strange mushroom perfectly round, no petals not to mention that little teflon ball separated in all pics i saw. i never understood the other loads on the page where in ballist. jello only 3 of 5 expand. not to mention the shape allows the to load well in even the most finicky guns that dont like hp's. one other maybe to look at is extreme shok ammo. dont really know, just that its expensive and a dude at the sportshow claimed they are experimenting with it for airplanes because it expands on soft matter but would fragment on a plane window or wall
kt

[Tater]

I would stay away from magsafe and glaser

Just curious as to why? I've heard nothing but good things about Glasers.

[Adam Helmer]

Esox 357,

How big is your house? Birdshot in a shotgun if fine for home defense against bad guys up to 30 yards. I would never use 00 or 000 buckshot because they will surely overpenetrate sheet rock walls even if a few of the 00s find a BG.

Do not underestimate birdshot from a 12 gauge. At 30 feet or less, the shot column will act like a slug and the BG will not notice any difference.

Adam

[Esox357]

Tater they had a bad reputation for not penetrating and leaving only shallow wounds and not reaching the vitals.
Adam birdshot is not a good manstopper. If it were the police/military and everybody would be using it. That is not to say it won't kill close up or deter an attack but in a apartment setting as you mentioned it could act like a slug and blow through to the next apartment depeneding the layout of the builidng. I would not suggest a shotgun for an apartment setting but to each their own. Esox357.

[Adam Helmer]

Esox 357,

You are shifting back and forth about birdshot. I spent 26 years in law enforcement and used a variety of ammo in shotguns. I say birdshot in a 12 gauge is far superior to any handgun or rifle round in most residential settings because it will not over-penetrate like solids tend to do. It is a manstopper at residential ranges and rest assured LEOs use fine birdshot, #4 Buck, 0Buck, 00 Buck and slugs as the need requires.

Regardless of what you use as a defense load, DO NOT MISS and then the BG's body will decelerate whatever ammo you chose to employ.

Adam

[Esox357]

I have yet to see an agency use birdshot for a shotgun for police use? #6, 7, 8, or even 9's are not used unless for range training but never for patrol duty. In 26 years maybe law enforcement has changed since you have been in? The only rounds I have seen used for patrol is reduced recoil 00 buck and slugs. These are the two most widely used rounds in law enforcement. Also birdshot within contact range will act just like a slug but for further ranges with a less than ideal shot placement, I would say that a determined attacker would continue the fight, I guess I would have to debate shot placement with you on this next..........but I simply cannot recommend birdshot for a home defense setting, it is better than nothing but still not ideal in my mind, that is my opinion and I am sticking to that. BTW I don't no many people who don't miss when under fire, so the idea of not missing is not realistic especailly if incoming fire is coming at you. The only way is if the homeowner is able to ambush the individual. Respectfully Esox357.

[Adam Helmer]

Esox 357,

Are you a LEO? If so, send me a PM and we can chat.

Yes, in 26 years law enforcement changed a lot along with our arms. I began duty on 11-7-70 with a 4-inch M10 S&W .38 Special and semi-annual use of the Remington 870 12 gauge riot gun. In 1976 I became the Firearms Coordinator (Instructor) for all 100 Inspectors in the 6 New England states and 250 Uniformed Security guards. I ran the semi-annual qualification for all these folks as a collateral duty as well as working my own cases as a field agent and later as a supervisor.

Changes did occur: In 1987, we dropped the revolvers and went to the Glock 17/19 9mm. We also went to #4 Buck and stayed with the 12 gauge slug and the #6 "High Brass" load for the 12 gauge and got in 12, H&K MP-5 9mm sub-machine guns. If you check our Firearms Manual, you will see fine shot is listed as an authorized round in the 12 gauge, along with #4 Buck and slug.

In the standard home, a load of #6 shot from a 12 gauge will blind a home invader, presupposing the home owner shoots for the head where no body armor covers that vulnerable spot.

I am not sure about your statements about "home owner ambushing" the home invader and facing "incoming fire." I have endured home invasions and I am here. In no case did the invader give incoming fire since the house was dark and quiet. I knew the interior of my home at 3:00 a.m. and the mopes did not. I am not spouting theory, I lived the stuff I talk about. Rest assured a 12 gauge with birdshot will defend your home if you snap the cap.

I have nothing more to say on this matter. You can have the last word and please tell us what it is based upon.

Adam

[Esox357]

Adam I respect your opinion and am not questioning your experience but I am not going to share mine. I can fully assure you that I have been there and done that as well. Being this is the internet which doesn't mean squat any individual can say whatever they want. From my experience talk is cheap so I really have nothing more to say, I do still stand by my original posts and have nothing more to add, so I guess we can say we agree to disagree. Catch ya on the next thread. Respectfully Esox357.

[Adam Helmer]

Esox357,

Yes, my friend, I will chat with you on the next thread and I really do appreciate your thoughts and input. Be well.

Adam

[6.5x53.5]

Personally I keep a .44 cop loaded with #6 shot, fast good close handeling and no over penitration. The main thing is as they are saying DON"T MISS


;)

[VaRedneck]

I keep a Colt 10mm in my bed stand, a Pit and a Rotty on the floor at the foot of the bed.

I sleep real well.

[Riposte1]

Glaser Safety slugs;

With the caveat that personal experiences and the wide variety of variables in lethal confrontations certainly does not guarantee that the results will always be the same, I have never encounted a successful use of a Glaser safety slug.

But then I have only run into a handful of cases where they were used and, probably by coincidence, none of the hits were what I would call good.

The one personal experience I had with one was on a woodchuck. I had some rounds given to me by the inventor of the design - they were probably not the same as the current factory made stuff as I am pretty sure he cranked them out on a handloading setup. Mine were .45s and they happened to chronograph nearly 1600 fps - much hotter than today's factory stuff. Yet that one did not expand on the woodchuck at all, it just went through. Distance was very close - I ambushed the critter when he came out of his hole.

Interestingly enough, they penetrated soft body armor but the newer ones will not.

Riposte

[Riposte1]

Birdshot;

While I know several people, including myself, who have been shot with birdshot at a distance (no damage) I only have had contact with a few who have used it or had it used on them in lethal confrontations. Two were clients of companies I worked for in my younger years.

The first was an attempted robbery in which I knew the victim. It was in the parking lot of a McDonalds in downtown Louisville, Ky (they kept the safe in an out building - not really bright). It was broad daylight. The manager emptied a 5 shot chief special (158gr LRN) into the chest of the robber at near contact range then turned and ran back into the building. About the time he hit the door the BG shot him in the back with a single shot sawed off shotgun loaded with birdshot at a distance of 18 feet. The manager survived just fine and though in pain I talked to him a week after the incident. The docs let the shot "grow" out. That must have been an interesting process. I saw a piece of the shot, it was either #5 or 6. BTW, the robber, after remaining on the critical list for a while survied and was convicted. I always entertained the notion that there was something wrong with that round, no piece of shot penetrated more than 2" most was only 1" deep.

The next was another client in Memphis who was robbed in his driveway when he had come back in from bird hunting. The robbers got his money and started to saunter off (you have to have experineced Memphis to understand this) and the guy just got mad, opened his trunk and scored a "double" with #8 shot. Distance probably 15 - 20 feet. Both wounds were fatal. No charges filed - it was a different time.

Personally I keep one round of #2 shot as the first one in the mag of my house gun, the rest are 00 or 000 buck with 3 slugs in the sidesaddle (My real house gun is an M-14 but I keep the scatter gun handy). But the bird shot is really more to be able to venture outside and wax a varmint that might wander between my yard and the direction of the neighbors (they are about 150 to 200 yards away) to the side, the back is open. I am not concerned about inside the house, it is brick and just my wife and I live here with my son visiting occasionally - he knows to hit the floor.

Some don't know it but in Miami in 1986, Mattix had a pistol grip only shotgun loaded with #6 shot. He didn't accomplish anything except to stop some FBI bullets that might have hit Platt, who was far more dangerous.

While shotguns seem to be on the way out in law enforcement, and I understand why, there is still something visceral about a .72 caliber hole!

Riposte