Amish Schoolhouse Shooting

[Skinny Shooter]

http://www.wgal.com/news/9981693/detail.html
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4620042

Unbelievable that this would happen to the Amish.

We had a local police officer shot and killed by a bad guy recently and there have been calls for more gun control and a county-wide police force.
Neither of which would have saved his life.
A local democrat actually spoke out against more gun control. Never thought I'd see that...
Now there have been several high-profile shootings recently and I can hear Gov Rendell sharpening his knives already.

Why people hide their heads in the sand and continue to think their kids are safe in a gun-free school zone is beyond me. Gun violence in schools illustrates that criminals operate any way they see fit.

[Hunting_Gal]

SS, I heard about that :( There familys are in our prayers

[JimPic]

that happened in the county next to me--unbelievable!It's all over WGAL news

[tooldummy]

Along with the shooting last week, it is a sad time right now. Their families are in my prayers.

[GoodOlBoy]

The most unbelieveable thing to me is the Baptist church who was going to block the funerals in protest. . . . I am Baptist and let me tell you that every church I know of in east Texas was appaled and horrified to hear that! It's outrageous that after such a tragedy and loss ANY Church of ANY religion should protest, but especially a Christian church. Shame on them.

After reading the reports of what they believed this lunitic was planning to do we should be happy that he took the cowards way out instead. . . .

My prayers go out to all those families and people.

GoodOlBoy

[jon lynn]

It staggers my mind. Who would hurt the Amish? They are true, I mean true. Forget the brain washing we are getting over the Muslems. These folks don't do squat that is not in the Bible.

They do not punish non-belivers, they do not bend in their beliefs, how could anyone want to harm them.

It must suck having to hurt the meek to feel like a real man.:(

[Allen]

Their not your normal Baptist church. They are the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas. This is the group that protest at all of the military funerals.

It appears that someone agreed to give them an hour of air time on his show if they would leave the Amish alone.

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/15679665.htm

[Dghantt]

:mad: i am ashamed to be an american ,
i am ashamed because of the so called
" christians " who hide behind their constitutional rights of freedom of speach and freedom of religeion , to hate monger , i am ashamed of the press because they badger these people in their time of grief , tha amish people are peaceful hardworking people who harm none . for the first time in my life i regret my time in service . i have never been so ashamed and angery i cant even spell good

[GoodOlBoy]

Easy there Dghnatt. While many of us are ashamed of these particular knottheads don't fly off the handle and lump all Americans and all Christians in with them. It winds up making you no better than they are (After all the lump all Americans and all other Christians together too) They are not the first group of yo-yos to claim they have the one true church etc etc.

As for the Amish, I can't say I agree with all their beliefs and the amount of police reports of abuse comming out of that territory is frightening (Corporal punishment taken WAY to far) BUT They are a peaceable people. Nobody who is living a life like they are trying to live should ahve to go through what they are having to go through. From my understanding they DO try to follow the Bible, and they are for the most part good people (Even here you cannot lump it all together folks people are individuals and cappable of great good or great evil ALL on their own) I do know that they are some of the dangdest craftsmen I have ever seen. Furniture and buildings (Particularly barns) built by these people last hundreds of years. And they are still building them that way.

Anyway

GoodOlBoy

[rubicon]

I certainly dont condone the abuse Ive heard of in the amish communities but I have to believe that the abusers are SCUM individuals which are in all cultures. I did live near Amish in western Maryland and knew several families that were really good people. In fact, I had a close friend who had a sporting goods shop and a beauty shop in his home . He would sell guns to the Amish and often they would tell him they could not pay for the gun they bought until they sold a cow or harvested a field or whatever and he always extended them credit. And they always came back and paid as they said they would. His house caught fire and burned to the ground one night. The following morning there were more men without buttons in his yard than you could shake a stick at. they started hauling the debris away while it still had smoke coming off it- then they began building him a new house, men and boys building while the women and girls cooked and fed the men. The house was completed and he moved in three weeks later. And he has a beautiful home. I knew on older Amish gentleman up there who owned a cabinet shop. He had his own Cessna airplane and flew all over the place. He just had to bum a ride from this farm to the little airport. I kidded him often but he always laughed and said when they said we couldnt have cars nobody was thinking of airplanes. (He flew to Canada every year to bear hunt). And they do have a sensa of humor- When I raised plott hounds up there I always bought my dog food of of another Amishman who had a feed store. I will never forget, I was getting dog food one day and his son who was about 6 or 7 was in the barn with us and overheard the man tell me "Ill trade you one of your plotts for the black and tan tied up over there." The little boy started crying and said "Daddy, you cant get rid of my dog. We dont know how good his dog is." He said "I know son but we do know how worthless our dog is"

[rickjordan]

Great stories and points, rubican.

[Tall Shadow]

I'm sure I speak for all of my fellow Americans (Real Americans, not the haters spoken of above), when I say that Our hearts & prayers go out to the people who suffered for this latest (and any of the other) tragedies.

However, We must not loose sight of the fact that the monster that did this, did what he did because of the very "Peaceful" nature/culture Of the Amish. This + the psychotic ramblings of his sick mind spelled the doom of those poor children.

In this day and age, anyone who relies on law enforcement, the government, or existing laws to protect themselves is living in a Dreamworld!

This animal knew he had nothing to fear upon entering that schoolhouse. He would not be challenged, stopped or interfered with in any way. He Knew that he could do whatever he wanted..for as long as he wanted to. Only someone witnessing his actions brought Police action.....upon learning of this he shot the children, then himself. He (In My Opinion) was planing on abusing them for allot longer, but his plans were interrupted. Choosing the way "Out" of the coward (Like he was) he decided to "Take a few with him on the way out."

What can we All learn form something like this?

(1.) Pacifism isn't the answer, Arm Yourself. Learn how to defend yourself. Teach those you love how to, too!

(2.) Don't rely on "Others" to protect you & Your's. The supreme Court has ruled that the Police are not responsible for your safety!

(3.) Support the RTKBA (Right to Keep & Bear Arms) fight at the Local, State, and Federal levels.

(4.) Practice!, Practice!, Practice! All the hardware in the world is no good, if you can't use it!

Tall Shadow

[Skinny Shooter]

Here's some info:

Gun Class for Utah Teachers (http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650198346,00.html)

Free concealed-weapons session is offered today

By Ben Winslow and Jennifer Toomer-Cook
Deseret Morning News
More than a dozen teachers and public school employees will spend part of their UEA weekend in a classroom — learning how to use a gun.
Clark Aposhian is offering a free class today to public school employees seeking to get their concealed- weapons permit.
"It is self-defense," he told the Deseret Morning News on Thursday. "But because teachers and school administrators and custodians are typically surrounded by students all day, any threat to any individual with a firearm would also be a threat to those students."
The concealed-weapons instructor's offer was met with opposition from some teachers and union representatives at the Utah Education Association's conference in Salt Lake City.
"We've always resisted the idea of arming school employees," said Susan Kuziak, executive director of the 18,000-member teachers union. "Though the intentions may be good, ultimately, the potential for harm is too great."
A handful of teachers interviewed at the UEA convention agreed. Some said the idea of guns in schools, even when toted by trusted colleagues, makes them nervous.
"Who's to say a kid couldn't take a gun from me or another teacher?" said Darren Dickson, a teacher at Altamont High in Duchesne County. "It's too much of a risk."
Aposhian said the recent school shootings across the nation prompted him to offer the free training. In addition to being a concealed-weapons instructor, he is the owner of FairWarning Firearm Training, the chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and the husband of a schoolteacher.
"Teachers are always complaining that they don't get support from the community," he said. "Here we are."
School districts have long grappled with the guns-on-campus issue. Federal law bans weapons — real or fake — from school property. But Utah law now makes clear schools can't prevent people with concealed-weapons permits from carrying firearms on campuses. Granite School District's policy, for example, allows permit holders to keep their gun "readily accessible for immediate use," but bans teachers from leaving their weapons in a desk drawer or coat closet.
Law enforcement officers never have to give up their guns at the school house door.
Aposhian said he does not want teachers to suddenly become "heroes" in the event of a school shooting. In fact, he said, they should continue to follow school lockdown procedures, which include teachers locking doors and remaining in classrooms.
"We discourage teachers from roaming the halls looking for the intruder," he said. "We're not trying to turn them into law enforcement in any way."
But the teachers union says that's how it feels.
"The knee-jerk reaction is, 'Let's scare the bad guys off,"' Kuziak said. "But people who have committed these acts are not stable and normal in their thinking," considering they've been willing to kill themselves, she said.
Still, that doesn't mean more can't be done in terms of firearms training for teachers, some say.
One suggestion is to offer that training to public school employees through the Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) Council. During a radio call-in show on Wednesday, Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff said he would be open to presenting that idea to POST.
However, Shurtleff's office insisted Thursday that despite broadcast reports, it was not an initiative of the Utah Attorney General's Office.
"The idea deserves public scrutiny to see if it has any merit," spokesman Paul Murphy said Thursday.
The UEA for one doesn't believe it does.
Yet there are teachers interested in Aposhian's invitation. So far, about 2 dozen teachers and public school employees have signed up for his class. Included with the free class is fingerprinting and photography for the concealed-weapons application. Public school employees will still have to pay a $59 application fee to the state.
Despite the UEA's opposition to the idea, Aposhian said he has not heard any detractors. He sees only an additional layer of school security with teachers legally and lawfully carrying concealed weapons.
"A shooter going in there may pause to reflect," he said. "Because they may find a teacher carrying a firearm for self-defense."

I'm for CCW for yourself with no additional training.
But, if a teacher takes it upon themself to carry in a school setting, they would best be served by receiving LE level certification for weapons use.

[Tall Shadow]

Originally posted by Skinny Shooter
I'm for CCW for yourself with no additional training.
But, if a teacher takes it upon themself to carry in a school setting, they would best be served by receiving LE level certification for weapons use.


I agree with that requirement.

However, after having shot along side of LEOs (Law Enforcment Officers), and having friends who are LEOs themselves, The basic qualification requirements are usually pretty low. The week(s) leading up to the yearly qualification dates can be vary scary times at the local ranges.

Lets face it, LEOs come from all walks of life. As such, their own skills with firearms vary greatly. I've shot with those who could barely hit the broad-side of a barn...from the inside......to those who are among the top shooters in the country, with many more in the former category, than the latter.

Obviously some sort of training/qualification needs to be in place, I would just hope it would be more than just a cursory class.

But I'd rather have a relative novice with some kind of gun, than an expert without, cowering in the corner of the class room...while some nut is in the school.

I hope this idea spreads across the country....soon!

Tall Shadow

[Lilred]

That really preturbed me...sad..I actually have a great respect for the Amish. that's alot comin from me too...but i do respect those folks.
now...here's somethin that i think everyone here would really enjoy and learn from. A local contractor was raised amish. He is now mennonite...but he is a awesome author. Earlier this year, he published his second book...and its about the amish lifestyle and it's his true story about growin up amish..all the trials and tribulations they faced..and havin a amish mission in honduras.
i'll be honest with ya'll...i never knew bein amish so was so political, temptin and difficult as it is until i read this book.

the book is called a time to live...here's the amazon link where you can buy it.
A Time To Live (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/102-1524434-8511317?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=jerry+eicher)

now yall dont git me wrong..I aint amish/mennonite we whatever...and i deal with this contractor alot...and i think it's kinda hard on him dealin with a woman...seein as how women in his werld just dont do such things. Even gettin a smile outta him is rare..but when he brought his books into the store I bought one outta general principle and i was truly surprised. So anyway...the recent events made me think of the book and thought I'd mention it here

[skeeter@ccia.com]

Arm yourself, take care of yourself/ yours...I agree with that statement for sure but I just can't see them arming teachers even though in my opinion it would help keep these intruders out. They know that is one place they can go because there are no guns....they won't even let the airline pilots carry...just who are "they" anyhow? I think I seen them on a tv show about the hippies of years gone past..the flower children....too many rules...then there are those that don't follow these same rules...so why not let us take care of ourselves? Times have changed...gotta wake up America. Heck my oldest daughter is a teacher and can't even keep her hunting gear in her car trunk to hunt after work...what a mess that would turn out to be if she did.

[Tall Shadow]

Originally posted by skeeter@ccia.com
Arm yourself, take care of yourself/ yours...I agree with that statement for sure but I just can't see them arming teachers even though in my opinion it would help keep these intruders out.

That is Exactly what Utah is talking about...Arming teachers.
Now, I don't know if that will ever come to pass, but I agree with you..in that I think that is a very good step in the right direction.


Originally posted by skeeter@ccia.com
They know that is one place they can go because there are no guns....they won't even let the airline pilots carry.

That, again, is Exactly why he (The sick B*stard that shot up the Amish schoolhouse) went there...No one to fight back.

Originally posted by skeeter@ccia.com
...just who are "they" anyhow? I think I seen them on a tv show about the hippies of years gone past..the flower children....too many rules.

You are batting 1000 on your assessment there skeeter!, the majority of the schmucks who are leading the "Guns are Bad", "War is Bad", "America is the Devil", "The poor only need more money & Free stuff", "Terrorists are just being misunderstood", "Saddam wasn't that bad of a leader", Etc..

Are the old "Left over" hippies from the 60's...Look at the loudest/freakiest ones at the next rally....You can't miss them....
And they are inspiring a whole new generation of themselves.....

Yippie! :mad:

Originally posted by skeeter@ccia.com
...then there are those that don't follow these same rules...so why not let us take care of ourselves? Times have changed...gotta wake up America. Heck my oldest daughter is a teacher and can't even keep her hunting gear in her car trunk to hunt after work...what a mess that would turn out to be if she did.

[Hippie voice]" Like, Taking personal responsiblity is, like, bad...MmmmKay?!?"...... "Just give the badly mis-understood guys who are trying to kill you, like, whatever they want....Mmmmkay?!?" [/Hippie voice]

And don't even start me on the whole "No Icky! gun stuff on work property!" routine...Or worse yet... The drivel that the "School system" is teaching our kids + the "Dumbing Down" of the whole testing requirements thing.......I'd blow a blood vessel in My head....again!

Tall Shadow
;)