question on 223 and 243

[maineguy110]

My question is when you shot your deer with either round. did it leave a good blood trail when shot in the boiler room. i need to buy the wife a new rifle with little kick but dropping power also need some range. she has a bad shoulder

thanks for your input

[toxic111]

between those calibers, the .243 is the best bet for range and killing power.

I use a 6mm Rem myself (similar to the .243) and the last 3 deer have been one shot kills, 2 fell in thier tracks, and my mulie buck this fall (about 200-225lbs on the hoof) took 2 steps then fell over.

Use a good bullet and any shot to the boiler room will produce a kill.

Oh and I have had good blood trails with it when neede, all shots have been through & through.

[Mickey Rat]

My brother killed a deer with a Browning High Wall in 223. Deer dropped quickly with hit to lungs & heart, but left no blood trail due to no exit wound.

He took 28 deer with a BAR in 243. One ran 50 yards with both lungs gone. Left a puddle at every step. All others dropped in track or quickly and bled profusely from exit & entry wounds.

Leave the 223 at home.

[DaMadman]

Go with the 243, it'll be the best little deer gun you own. Just MHO but I have an Uncle that hunts with a 243 and never fails to drop the deer he shoots. Very little recoil and just enough power and range to take out any good sized whitetail or Mulie.

[SD Handgunner]

I actually have identical Stainless-Synthetic Ruger KM77RFP MKII Rifles, 1 in .223 and 1 in .243. While I love both Rifles and do not want to part with either one, when it comes to Whitetail Deer the .243 is the first choice. I handload 95gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips to a muzzle velocity of 3071 FPS in my .243. I have taken 3 Whitetails with this bullet so far and all have been one shot kills. In addition all had exit wounds about the size of a 25 cent piece which caused lots of blood to leak out. However tracking wasn't needed as all 3 Deer never traveled more than a few yards after the shot.

On a different note I shot a Whitetail Doe with the Ruger .223 a couple years ago. I was using Winchester / USA White Box 55gr. Pointed Soft Point Ammo. The shot was through both lungs. At the shot the Doe took off running but after a few yards slowed to a walk. She traveled roughly 200 yards from where she was shot to where she collapsed dead. Yes there was a small exit wound, but hardly no blood on the ground.

According to the formula I use my .223 Load churns up just under 4 foot pounds of free recoil, and my .243 load churns up 10 foot pounds of free recoil. As a comparison the ammo I load for my buddies .30-06 (150gr. Bullet at 2984 FPS) churns up 20 foot pounds of free recoil.

While the .223 produces less than half the free recoil of a .243 the .243 produces half the recoil of a .30-06 for comparison purposes.

If it were me I'd opt for the .243. After my right lung collapsed the second time it was glued to my chest wall to keep it from collapsing again. My Dr. told me to be careful how much recoil I subjected my right shoulder to so as to not irritate the bond between my chest wall and my lung. The .243 has never caused a problem for me, but a .270 Winchester did.

Larry

[GoodOlBoy]

Last time I shot a deer it didn't leave much of a blood trail at all. Had to life the carcass to be able to see it :D

GoodOlBoy

[Charlie in TX]

I agree with the 243 recommendation.

Something about recoil, you feel recoil a lot less from a well fit gun. I had a Savage 110 in 30-06, one shot and my sholder was bruised. I now have a Thompson Center in 300 Win Mag, 10 shots no problem. The TC fits well, the Savage fits poorly.

Point being, a well fit gun/scope combo she may be able to handle a 308, a poor fit combo could make a 223 too much.

[M.T. Pockets]

I know several people who hunt deer with a .243 with no complaints.

Here in Minnesota there is a minimum caliber requirement of .23 for deer, so the .223 and other centerfire .22's aren't used.

If recoil is still an issue with a .243, you could always get it ported, or buy one with a BOSS unit. Just be sure to wear ear protection at all times. That should reduce recoil to a very mild level.

I'm glad your wife is still willing to keep hunting with her bad shoulder. I separated a shoulder in a farming accident about 20 years ago, exactly one week before deer season. I was told to keep my arm in a sling for a month til I could have surgery. I did, except for two days during deer season.

[Riposte1]

I admit my experience is probably not the norm but I have been on hand to see 5 deer shot with a .243 (one was my son's first deer).

2 left a blood trail, but one of those thinned and quit after about 100 yards and the deer was lost (found it a long time later, but of course too late). The other one was shot again after it ran some 200 yards and did not really need to be followed up.

Of the other three, one was hit in the neck (spine) and dropped there, the other two left no trail and were only recovered days later (both were hit behind the shoulder through the lungs, though one was hit a total of 5 times, 2 hits were not good).

I shot a deer with a .223 using the 77gr BTHP ammo. It measured out exatly 300 yards. It left a small blood trail and was recovered 80 yards from the spot. This bullet struck the shoulder blade above the center line but did not break it (this bone is pretty flexible in a deer).

Can't say as I have much confidence in either round for putting deer down on the spot but they will certainly kill deer if the bullet goes in the right place.

Riposte

[JimHnSTL]

the ONLY PROBLEM with a .243 when used for deer is useing the wrong bullet. the .243 double duties for both whitetail and varments, but the bullets for both are differant and a thin jacketed varment bullet when used on a deer is going to fragment and not penetrate. but a properly built whitetail bullet will flat anchor those rascals every time. i have abuddy i watch shoot a deer at 150 yrds with a 100 gr corelock on a quartering away shot from a high tree stand. the bullet entered high right side back aways and left bottom front left shoulder/chest area. my son took his first deer ever this year with a .243 (he's 12 and 90 lb) hit it high front right shoulder, the deer was facing head on to him but slitely quartering towards him ever so. bullet went through the shoulder and put a golf ball size holle through the lungs and liver and all the way back the the hams. if shots are kept under 200 yrds you will be fine with a proper constructed bullet. to give you an idea here is the 100 gr .243 bullet compared to a much heavier 150 gr. 30/30 bullet, look at the energy at 100 & 200 yrds.http://www.missouri-whitetails.com/data/500/74243-vs-3030_Page_1-med.jpg

[Riposte1]

I hope this does not come across as contentious and is perceived as what it is, discussion, not argument.

This is the problem with personal experience; it colors one's perceptions (I am as subject to it as anyone). The first 15 deer I shot, 8 of them with various handguns, dropped in their tracks and I thought that I must know something that others don’t. WRONG!

The 16th was a medium doe shot at 25yards with a .308 using a Nosler Ballistic Tip to the top of the heart right behind the leg - the race was on! I shot her as she contemplated a 4 foot barbed wire fence. She cleared that flat footed and charged off through the timber. She might still be running (OK, an exaggeration) except that she ran into a big tree and broke her neck.

All of the deer I have seen shot with the .243 ran, except for the one shot in the neck, enough to be lost (all were eventually recovered - which tells us they were shot in a good spot -but 3 were spoiled).

In the early 80, with the help of the deer check stations in my area, we interviewed over 500 deer hunters (successful as this was a check in station), examined the carcass for the hit, kicked out the bad hits and the spine shots, then tallied them as to whether the deer dropped instantly, ran a short distance, or ran a long distance (the last could have easily resulted in a lost critter).

Sorry not to be imprecise but the data was on an old computer and software that is no longer available. Jeff Cooper printed the initial results in his column back in 82 but that was the first year of the study so it was not complete.

Anyway, I do recall that the .243, with good hits stopped about 25% of the deer quickly, as did the .357 magnum pistol.

Wish I had not lost that data as it had a lot of info including whether the bullet exited or not, if so what size, whether the bullet hit the heart, lungs or both and whether leg/shoulder bones were broke.

What was striking was two things. Energy was irrelevant (at the time Duncan MacPhereson had not done is excellent treatise on why energy is irrelevant to Wound Trauma Incapacitation) and whether you broke bone was critical. There was a loose correlation between exit wound and the shortness of the distance traveled - but what was hit inside the thoracic cavity seemed to be the "trump card". Given good placement, big bore pistols were quicker to stop than small bore rifles - something that has borne out in our experience since the study - but even that is complex as a bullet that hits high & back in the lungs does not seem to work as well that hits low and up front. Heart shots, without breaking bone, were no guarantee of a quick stop.

Still and all, there are way to many factors to say anything is a sure thing, I witnessed a deer in MS run off shot behind the shoulder with a 165gr BTHP from a .300 Win Mag - it was recovered some time later and ran over 100 yards.

Personally, like Thomas Edison, I think we learn as much from our failures than our successes. This year I learned a lot from my failures :-(

Sorry to go so long, I am just very interested in this topic as I think it relates to what we are seeing in the lethal force side of things thought that relationship is not simple either.

Very best regards,
Riposte

[L. Cooper]

Good post, Riposte1.

I too have been reading this and wondering how to contribute. I have seen many deer shot with everything from .243 to .338, and it is obvious to me that nothing can be counted on to always drop them on the spot. There are way to many variables.

All of them will kill deer, of course. Tracking after the shot will sometimes, no matter what you shoot, be necessary.

As a result I have now want good blood trails from almost any shooting angle. Good blood trails never happen from entrance wounds. A caliber that produces exit wounds almost all the time requires heavier bullets than either the .223 (which I consider completely inadequate for deer sized game) or the .243 (which is quite adequate for deer, but not a reliable blood trail producer because of light bullets.)

Of the two rounds being discussed, only the .243 is appropriate, but there will be times where its "stopping power" (I'm not sure what is meant by that exactly) and its ability to produce blood trails will be less than many other rounds.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by L. Cooper
Good post, Riposte1.

I too have been reading this and wondering how to contribute. I have seen many deer shot with everything from .243 to .338, and it is obvious to me that nothing can be counted on to always drop them on the spot. There are way to many variables.

All of them will kill deer, of course. Tracking after the shot will sometimes, no matter what you shoot, be necessary.



An eternal truth.

[JimHnSTL]

Originally posted by Riposte1
I hope this does not come across as contentious and is perceived as what it is, discussion, not argument.


In the early 80, with the help of the deer check stations in my area, we interviewed over 500 deer hunters (successful as this was a check in station), examined the carcass for the hit, kicked out the bad hits and the spine shots, then tallied them as to whether the deer dropped instantly, ran a short distance, or ran a long distance (the last could have easily resulted in a lost critter).

Sorry not to be imprecise but the data was on an old computer and software that is no longer available. Jeff Cooper printed the initial results in his column back in 82 but that was the first year of the study so it was not complete.

Anyway, I do recall that the .243, with good hits stopped about 25% of the deer quickly, as did the .357 magnum pistol.


Very best regards,
Riposte
first off let me say for the record i don't take your post as an argument and i hope you don't take my comments and questions that way either.
second your info gathering in the 80's is good timming as that is when the .243 really started to be seen in deer country at least here in the midwest in larger numbers. it is also at a critical time where a lot of folks really didn't understand the round and the bullet design between the various varment/deer rounds. i wonder (not your personal use) how many of those deer shot by the .243 and documented by you and others where being taken by someone using an inferior whitail bullet. i would be real interested to hear those #'s.
third i don't deny the .243 must be used within it's limitations especialy once you get out past 150 yrds. but i will stand by my comment that when used with a good premium bullet (partitions my first choice) the .243 will deliver pass through shots easily out to 100 yrds, and if shot placement is proper it will do it at 150 yrds. this satisfies most hunting situations.

[Riposte1]

JimHnSTL;

I beleive your statement on the Noslers. Both cases I saw with 95gr Noslers had good exits. Why they both failed to stop I do not know as both hit well. One in fact hit bone, and I have a piece of it in my desk. That is the way I identified the carcas some months later - the bone chip was missing from the shoulder joint and it matched the one I saved from my Son's first deer.

My first real encounters with the .243 were when I lived a while in Mississippi during the mid 70's. There we were allowed to take approximately 50 deer per year. I never did take that many but some friends who owned rather large land holdings and worked on them did (they did this largely due to crop damage and management of the heard but they also fed a lot of locals who could use the help.)

The .243 was quite popular in the public areas and I saw quite a few knowlegeable people use it (one of those failrures to stop quickly was one of those folks - he has shot a lot of deer with the .223 also, as well as with a .378 Weatherby).

As you indicate, some people who knew little, would just shoot anything (which actually wasn't all that bad as they were shooting the "little" deer in public lands). Others who were pretty savvy riflemen, and shot on the more managed areas, were shooting what premium bullets were available at the time. Mostly Nosler Partitians but some Barnes classics (the X bullet had not come out yet). One fellow would get bullets directly from Jack Carter (Trophy Bonded) to test before they hit the market.

As for the deer study. I cannot say for sure, being that long ago but I think most of those were shot with the 100 gr Remington Core Lokt.

Great discussion! We all learn from others experiences. But as I said somewhere above, while I dont claim to have definitive knowledge, seeing all but one of the critters run sort of taints it for me.

BTW, I knew a nice lady once who killed 27 deer with 27 shots. about half of those were shot with a .35 Whelen. She liked that because none of them ever moved out of their tracks. But then those shot with the .30-06 didn't often move either but she once shot a mouflon ram and had to use a second shot with a 30-06 and that prompted a change in armament.

I sure don't claim any definitave knowledge on the subject, just some experience; it's what we learn after we "know it all" that counts the most :-). I am still learning, that's why I like to hear from folks like those here!

Very best regards,

Riposte

[maineguy110]

gentlemen thank you for sharing your knowledge.Reading your replies is a real pleasure and very informing. I am leaning toward the 243 unless i can find another calber that will do the job. iam learning that not matter what the calber you may not all ways get a good blood trail. in the last 2 years i have killed 2 deer with my 30-06 one left a big blood trail went 100 yards the other barely any blood went 30 yards. if you gentlemen have any other calber to offer i would really like to read about it

[Riposte1]

If I wanted to break a youngster or a slightly built person (male or female) into hunting without intimidating them I would probably go one of two ways.

1st, I would probably use a .308, .270 or 30-06 and look into the reduced recoil loads Remington is making. That way one could always go up in power. You dont get something for nothing, reduced recoil means less "power" but the decrease in practical ability to drop game might not be as much as you think. There is an attendant reduction in Point Blank Range however if long range is a consideration.

2nd I might look at the "intermediate" cartridges like the 6.8 Remington SPC ( I shot two deer with this last year testing ammo for the military). Both had 3" exit wounds and it worked just fine. Range was 75 and 100 yards. It does not look like much on paper though. Recoil is certainly not more than a 5.56 (.223).

In that same line CZ makes a nifty carbine in 7.62X39 Russian. American ammo (rather than the cheap steel cased stuff) performs pretty good on deer in this area and the cheap stuff makes for good practice.

Those are just a couple of ideas, certainly not the only avenue to success.

Bear in mind the skill at placing the bullet is paramount... a gut shot with a .458 is probably not going to get the job done.

Happy Trails!
Riposte

[THE KING OF HUNTING]

I TOOK MY SISTER SON OUT ON OPENING YOUTH WEEKEND AND HE IS 6 YEARS OLD IT WAS HES FIRST HUNT THAT AFTERNOON HE SHOT HES FIRST BUCK WITH A 243 THE DEER ONLY RAN ABOUT 5 YARDS THE 243 .

[Montana Cowboy]

Go with the .243 MC

[buckhunter]

Glad you decided to go with a 243. If my memory serves me right the any 22 cal. is illegale in ME to hunt deer. Anyway if it were me I would probably stick with the 308 family and go with either a 260 or 7mm/08.

[johnliester]

You know, we all hear stories about deer and elk shot " in the lungs" running for miles and living for days. What a bunch of BULL!
You hit any animal through the lungs, it's going to die. Whether it's with a 223, 243, or whatever. It's going to die. It drowns in it's own blood. If this weren't the case, an arrow would never work, would it?
On that note, the 243 is a great deer round. I've had one for 15 years. And I have never lost a deer hit in the chest cavity with it. 2 bullets I use are the 95 gr ballistic tip, and the 100 gr Hornady BTSP Interlok. Had a B-T go endwise through a deer woth a Texas heart shot. Bullet lodged in the skin at the brisket. Not an ideal shot placement, but my son was young and the buck was big. Dropped at the shot.
I'd get her a wood stocked 243, then fit the stock to her. It's amazing how much less recoil is when a gun fits correctly. Trust me on this, as I shoot a 10 gauge at waterfowl. No problem.

[denton]

I have a couple of grandkids coming up, and debated and thought considerably about a 243 for them. In the end, I decided that it's probably quite satisfactory for deer, if you use the right bullet.

Standard Speer, Hornady, and Sierra bullets do very poorly when the impact speed is above 2800 fps or below 2100 fps. Anywhere in that range, barring a major bone hit, they will make a remarkably constant 14" long wound channel

With a 243, it is very easy to have impact speeds higher than 2800 fps. Above 2800, the wound channel is significantly SHORTER, and it gets WORSE as impact speed goes UP. The Partition provides a pretty constant 16" wound channel, from 1700 fps to as fast as you want to go.

My theory--yet to be tested--is that if you load 95 or 100 grain Partitions, the 243 is a probably a reliable deer gun, even for big western mulies. If you shoot standard bullets, or ballistic tips, especially in the lighter weights, it's probably not going to be nearly as reliable, though it will probably work most of the time.

One thing I will defend for sure: Anything the 223 can do, the 243 can do. The reverse is not true.

[Montana Cowboy]

Howdy Denton
I agree with what you have said about the .243 and the bullets made for them. I've lost count of how many deer and antelope I've shot with the .243. The 95 and 100 grain Partition is what I use and they performed as advertized. I would highly recomend the partition bullet. MC