Shell lenght ???

[Zazu45]

Hi again.

All of you guys info has been VERY MUCH apreciated, Thank's a lot.

My toughts about gun model, gauge and shot size have been confirmed.
Now for the one item I never had to chose from until now, :shell lenght. What to buy ?
3in. Mag or 3 1/2in.
I heard and read all kind of very controversial stuff about one versus the other.
So here goes: what works, what's best ???

Denis:confused:

[fabsroman]

How much more does a 3 1/2" gun cost in the same model? Not much. Buy the 3 1/2" and you can still shoot 3" out of it if you decide that is all you need. Honestly, if you are on target, a 3" will be plenty good. A 3 1/2" doesn't provide any more pellets on target. What it does do is provide a longer shot string, so you can be a little bit off target with your shot, but the 3 1/2" isn't any more deadly than a 3". For instance, a 3" shot out of a tight patterning gun will be just as deadly as a 3 1/2" shell out of a tight patterning gun. The 3 1/2" doesn't provide any more lethality at range. Now, this all applies to 12 gauges.

A 3 1/2" 10 gauge is more deadly than a 3 1/2" 12 gauge because the 10 gauge has a shorter shot string and puts more pellets on target compared to the 12 gauge.

When you look at a patterning board, it doesn't do justice to a shot string. Yes, a tight patterning gun will have a shorter shot string at a longer distance than a more open shooting gun. You need to think of shot strings as a bunch of pellets flying through the air and the bird passes through this string, only getting hit by a couple of pellets in that string. This is kind of tough to explain because it is in 3D.

[skeet]

If you buy a 3" gun, that will probably be all you need for 99% of all your hunting. Fabs is essentially right. You may have a longer killing range with a 3 1/2" gun but not enough to make a major difference in deciding the gun and shell length to buy. if you end up buying a Remington 870 express, they make it in 3 1/2" also. If it doesn't cost more than 25 bucks or so more, buy it. Then as Fabs said...you can shoot any shell length through the gun. Most of all, what ever you get, Have Fun!!

[Catfish]

If your looking for the heavest load you can get I have seen no difference between 10 ga 3 1/2 in and 12 ga 3 1/2 in shells as to weight of shot offered. I looked in my Layman loading manual and found that of all loads listed with 2 1/4 oz. of shot the fastest one listed is a 12 ga. load. I see no need to carry the heaver gun around. This is with lead shot. With steel shot it looses velosity so fast that you will run out of speed befor you run out of patteren, and you can load or buy 3 in 12 ga. steel that is faster than the heaver 3 1/2 in loads in eather 10 or 12 ga. My goose gun is an old model 12 with a polly choke. Last year I had 1 more goose on the watter than shots fired untill the last goose which took 3 shot so I got 1 less goose than shot fired with Rem. Heavy Shot. I Killed 37 geese last year. I will not shoot at a goose in the air with steel, all I can get is feathers.
Afew years back I ran the numbers on 12 ga 3 in and 3 1/2 in loads and found that the extra killing range of the 3 1/2 over the 3 in way an extra 3 yrds or something like that.
My personal oppenion is that anything over a 12 ga. 3 in. shell is a waist of money.

[M.T. Pockets]

I'm not sure what gun you have picked out, if it is the pump you were looking at, then a 3 1/2" will likely be a bit longer & heavier with a longer throw than a 3" would be. That's not all bad if it doesn't bother you.

I've shot a 3" 12 guage for 25 years, either an 870 or a BPS. Two years ago I got a new autoloader that can handle 3 1/2" loads. I've shot the 3 1/2" loads some, but not much. If I'm going to do some serious long range pass shooting I grab my 10 guage. I find myself doing less and less long range shooting.

If you get a 3 1/2" gun, don't feel obligated to shoot these longer loads. If you get a gun in a 3" chamber don't feel handi-capped, it will do 99% of what the 3 1/2" will do just as well.

If you get the 3" and want to do some serious long range shooting, get some premium ammunition. I'd take a 3" load with heavy shot over a 3 1/2" load of steel any day.

[fabsroman]

Catfish,

I think it is undenaible that a 10 gauge is more lethal than a 12 gauge 3 1/2 shell with the exact same payload of shot. It all has to do with the shot string. Both shells will have the same exact number of pellets in the load. However, the 10 gauge will have a denser pattern because of its shorter shot string. That means it will have more pellets hit the target if both shooters are dead on. If Benelli or Beretta made a 10 gauge, I would have one in the blind with me. Heck, every once in a while, like right now, I debate whether to get a Remington SP-10 or Browning 10 gauge, but then decide against it.

[tjwatty]

Yea fabs, right about the time you look at the price of shells. Hee! Hee! I have yet to see a good sale on 10ga. every once in a while on 3.5 12 ga. but not 10's not around here anyway.

[Catfish]

Fabs,
Look at the paper you patteren your gun on. The last shot in the string hit the same paper that the first shot did so that would not be true with a still target. Besides, if your shot is moveing at 1,000 fps. how much time is going to elaps between the first shot and the last shot in a shot string that is 10 ft. long, even though I don`t think they get close to that lenth. Looks like about 1 / 100 of a second so how far is your target going to move in 1 / 100 of a second?????? I really don`t think that your going to see any difference in killing powder. It`s one of those thing you can prove on paper but not in the field.

[fabsroman]

Catfish,

Physics would prove me right. The difference on paper cannot be seen, but it is there. The density of a 10 gauge shot string is more than a 12 gauge. On a bird there is a heck of a difference between 3 pellets hitting it and 5 pellets hitting it.

Try shooting a 3 inch 12 gauge into paper and a 3 1/2" 12 gauge into paper and if the gun is choked right you won't notice too much of a difference either.

We can agree to disagree on this because I do not have the time or energy tonight to work on the equations.

[Zazu45]

Thanks for the info guys.

One more question.
Does large steel shot react to chokes as large lead does?
I mean: with large lead (#2 and bigger), you could often get tighter patterns with a modified than with a full choke.
I heard that shot string could possibly be shorter too.

Any truth to those claims?

Denis.

[skeet]

Larger steel will generally run tighter patterns with light mod to improved mod than lead shot I quite often use improved cylinder for geese up to about 40 yds. Especially with hevi shot. As far as shot string...don't even think of it. The only way to see shot stringing is with a revolving pattern sheet and it is a real pain in the butt to rig up. The shot string in a 12 ga is a little longer than a 10 ga but it really makes no difference. When the companies came out with shotshells with a "shorter shot string" it was just a sales gimmick. Still is for that matter. The shot strings out because of drag from the air on pellets. Lead from a shell with a good shot protecting wad will have a shorter shot string. Steel even shorter. But not enough for you to have to worry about. You WILL have to learn how to shoot steel but it really isn't rocket science. It just shoots a little differently and the patterns do generally stay a bit more dense. Go get that gun and go do some shooting!!

[fabsroman]

To answer your question, the larger pellet sizes in steel or lead will pattern tighter, so you do not need as tight of a choke to shoot them.

Along that line, steel patterns tighter than lead because it experiences hardly, if any, pellet deformation from pressure upon firing. When a lead pellet gets deformed under the pressure of firing, its aerodynamics gets screwed up so that you have pellets peeling off the front of the shot column quicker. That is why lead provides longer shot strings. Hevi-Shot patterns tighter than steel, because of its hardness (i.e., harder than steel) and the small deformity on it that gives it a tear drop shape. Tear drops or rain drops, are more aerodynamic than round balls (i.e., steel), so they fly straighter through the air. Hence, Hevi-Shot patterns tighter than steel. I have even tried it on paper and the difference was incredible.

Here is some more knowledge for you. The first (i.e., lead, not so be confused with the metal lead) pellets out of the barrel are not the first ones to the target. The lead pellets slow down first because they are the ones meeting the air resistance. The pellets behind the lead pellets are sheltered from the air by the lead pellets. Once the lead pellets start to slow down, the pellets behind them push through, pushing the lead pellets aside, and then the second group of pellets begins to slow down. As the second group of pellets begins to slow down, the third group pushes forward, and this continues all the way down the shot column.

For those out there that think shot column and strings don't matter, it'll take an extreme example to show how they do matter.

If we could shoot a 1 1/2 oz load out of a .410, do you guys think it would be anywhere nearly as effective as a 1 1/2 oz load out of a 12 gauge? I am willing to bet that you would say no. The same thing applies to a 12 gauge versus a 10 gauge. However, most shooters are not good enough to use a 10 gauge gun (i.e., they have not shot at that range enough times to be able to effectively use the 10 gauge over and over again). So, most people think that the 12 gauge 3 1/2" shell is just as good as the 10 gauge 3 1/2" shell because they both hold the same amount of shot.