ETHICS and the Bowhunter ?

[Tj Craig]

Men,
nowadays All ya here is SPEED ! SPEED ! SPEED! !Everything technological ! wow !!,, What ever happened to a good shooting heavy weight recurve or longbow shooting heavy arrows with sharp heads and the love of the hunt ? I shoot a 93# silvertip with a 860 grain sleeved 2018 ,speed ? dunno hard hitten OH YEAH !!!! So have some bowhunters sold thier soul for technological advances that make them feel more better equipted to hunt with and in turn became un-ethical
Tj

[rattus58]

Don't know what speed has to do with ethics in your post.

It can be argued that speed is the ETHICAL thing to have on your side. Speed can sometimes lead to erratic flight, that might not be ethical. Shooting vanes off the shelf might not also be ethical for the same reason, where if you had springy rest or something might work just fine.

Ethics has zero to do with your equipment, and everything to do with you the hunter. You make a killing shot and the deer just makes it over the fence and dies... within 15 feet of the fence... to someone else's property. What IS the ethics of that situation.

You make a shot, the animal jumps over the fence, but collapses... and is crying pitifully in pain now unable to move... just over and into someone else's property. What do you do?

The answers to these questions are both ethical questions and legal questions too. The answer should be obvious.

But take a third example, you are hunting with friends and although drives are illegal, you and a buddy decide that you will both be walking slowly.. still hunting you might say about 100 yards apart, and he spooks a deer that runs right towards you... what do you do?

Ok... never mind... you shoot the deer that is running from your buddy and and you place a "for sure kill shot"... and you and your buddy look for this deer for 4 or 5 hours... you know its dead... just where is it...

It's getting close to sundown and you are walking dejectedly back to your vehicles and out of nowhere materializes a great, by anyone's definition, 10 point.... standing broadside, unaware of your presence, and you are able to nock your arrow and draw.... Shoot or Don't shoot?

Aloha... :cool:

[Tj Craig]

MAN,
Equipment has nothin to do with ETHICS ??? Are you serious ?? shooting at a deer with a 50# recurve and a 300 grain arrow just because its faster is just plain UN-ETHICAL !PERIOD ! I posted Speed and techy advances as A POSSIBLE AND DEFFINATE detriment BOWHUNTING !and it Is . Ethics is about "CHOICE"!! Regardless! and that choice includes "EQUIPMENT"
Tj

[rattus58]

"So have some bowhunters sold thier soul for technological advances that make them feel more better equipted to hunt with and in turn became un-ethical Tj"

This is YOUR quote. You seem to be saying that speed and technilogical advances are unethical. And that is just not the case at all. This may be your opinion that speed is unethical, but if so, how so?

Please explain how equipment is to blame for anything, unless it is illegal in the first place. How is a legal device EVER unethical when used as lawfully intended? I'm sorry, but I don't buy that representation of technology. Technology is what it is. You don't have to use it. I don't.

Aloha.. :cool:

[Tj Craig]

ratt,

Would you take a .22 cailber rifle RHINO hunting ?? hippo?Elephant ? Probably not but what if someone you knew did ? what would you think ? Lets say a guy would take a 40 recurve whitetail hunting and he uses a 200 grain arrow just to get some more speed and he uses a Mechanical broahead to get some more blood trail?, In my opinion his choice of equipment has made him UN-ETHICAL, jmho. But what if the bowhunter used a 40# recurve and 480-500 grain arrow and a cut on impact head like a zwickey or magnus ? wouldn't this latter set-up be a better ethical choice?
Tj

[buckhunter]

Speed/Ethical/Equipment.

Without some of those unethical things like a compond with 65% letoff or a release or sight I wouldn't be bow hunting. Hitting a animal is hard enough without these unethical things. If you can do more power to you. I can't. So according to you I should not bow hunt?

Is a rifle scope unethical?

Is a recurve unethical? No according to you however a guy with a spear might think so.

To each their own.

[JimPic]

So if ethics was about equipment,a compound being a more precise and accurate tool would be the most ethical choice of weapon?I hunt with longbow because that's what I like to hunt with.I like getting close and keeping my shots under 20yds and only taking a shot under ideal situations.Ethics has nothing to do with equipment--it's all a personal issue with the hunter himself--not about what you use

[scalerman]

I guess we should all hunt from the ground naked then if equipment choices are unethical. Your treestands and camo have to go guys. Oh yeah no more scents, no more mock scrapes, no more rattling antlers- none of it- come on you guys if really is unethical to use all of this stuff. While you're at it I guess we should go back to killing everything with our bare hands. There now we're all as ethical as can be doesn't that feel better.

[Tennessee Elkman]

I agree with Buckhunter. As a guide in New Mexico I've seen three guys using recurves wound animals that we never found, after two + days of tracking. If it weren't for the high tech bows like my Mathews Switchback, I'd never be comfortable shooting a 800 lb elk with a recurve. Thats' were ethics come in. If the hunter feels comfortable about the shot, if you've personally watched him shot the recurve over and over again and the shots are dead on and yet we reach the field, call a screaming 6x6 into a broadside shot at 22 yds. and the arrow does not pass through and the elk runs off with little or no blood and you see the arrow sticking in the animal but only 5-6 inches are in the general area of the lungs is that ethical? :confused:

[rattus58]

Originally posted by Tj Craig
ratt,

Would you take a .22 cailber rifle RHINO hunting ?? hippo?Elephant ? Probably not but what if someone you knew did ? what would you think ? Lets say a guy would take a 40 recurve whitetail hunting and he uses a 200 grain arrow just to get some more speed and he uses a Mechanical broahead to get some more blood trail?, In my opinion his choice of equipment has made him UN-ETHICAL, jmho. But what if the bowhunter used a 40# recurve and 480-500 grain arrow and a cut on impact head like a zwickey or magnus ? wouldn't this latter set-up be a better ethical choice?
Tj

Hi TJ... :)

I used to be a great admirer of Capstick, well still am actually, and in one of his books on African hunting and game, regaled his readers of a bet between a couple of Dutchmen I think it was, about how one of them could drop an elephant with a 22, and the bet was on. Caveat, I"m not sure exactly what kind of 22 they were discussing but in fact the deed was done. This points out two things. 1) One must know one's equipment and capability. 2) One must know ones own ability.

A 35 pound recurve is legal for hunting in Hawaii. I'm not up on carbon arrows and the like cuz I use wood exclusively. But back when I used to sell stuff for compounds and such, it was typical that you would see an order for arrows that usually went around the AMO suggested 6 grains per pound of peak weight. But eastman will suggest arrow weights of 150 grains for lightweight recurves, and with fletching and broadhead would barely make 300 grains at say a 25" draw length. But what I'm saying is, and I'm not arguing here, well I'm advancing an argument maybe... oh well... :)

Anyways... On Lanai, they harvest deer at night with Jack Lights for the Hotels. They use 22's for the mission.. that be 22 Mag. This is a USDA deal before you all start in about fair chase etc... :) Their rules require all sorts of stuff that I'm not going into, except the 22 part. Highly effective with no losses. To me this is ethical.

Its the shooters capability and decision making that makes one ethical. It may be that a 200 grain arrow, if you could manufacture such a thing and still get your 40# from the bow... and I'm thinking maybe an 80# or Higher in order to achieve this at what has to be a minimal draw length, but assuming all this is achievable, if you are accurate with this setup, why wouldn't it be ethical for that shooter to use it hunting? And what about expandable blades for a better blood trail... I'm not sure that is the case, but if it was why not?

Getting back to your comment on the 400-500 grain arrow with the 40 pound bow.. yes.. that is what I WOULD USE. But does that mean that you have to also?

I understand and respect your opinion on this. Your ETHICS demand that YOU would use equipment that YOU feel is the right choice. As long as you are capable of killing an animal quickly and humanely with this setup you use, then I applaud your use of it.

However, it is not really up to us to impose our opinions or our capabilities on others. I know hunters that routinely go pig hunting with 223's and 243's. I personally don't feel that these calibers are adequate hunting calibers for big game, but I have seen some big deer dropped with the .243 on lots of occasions.

I don't know anyone who goes pig hunting with a 30# compound and ANY kind of an arrow, but I've a friend who goes hunting with his wife frequently and she uses a 45# compound and short arrows and 3 bladed MA-3 with holes drilled through them to lighten them up for good arrow flight, and she is D E A D L Y with that setup and her martin compound.

The 223 to me is an inadequate caliber for anything but squirrels.. but still, I've seen pigs dropped with them too... Are they unethical calibers... well in some hands they clearly are. In others it might be grey, and in a few, not at all.

Some states might legislate minimum draw weights and arrow weights. Some may also impose let off restrictions in the quest for fair chase ethics, but none of this really addresses the capability of the individual archer.

I go pig hunting usually with a minimum of 66#'s, but mostly it is 80+.

I get what you're driving at, I just feel that equipment is not the issue. Exploding heads might be, but 300 grains is not if in capable hands.

We all know our limitations.. or we should know them. Effective range means you can always put 10 out of 10 arrows into a certain diameter. Hunt within that range with a sharp broadhead and you will be successful on game... assuming you can get close enough to them that is... :)

Aloha... :cool:

[Tj Craig]

ratt,
The capstick story Ive read and is the exception and not the rule! But no one will ever tell me that Equipment and ethics are not EXTREMELY and closely related and should be considered anytime a hunter goes afield!! AND Just because a STATE LAW gives a minimum doesn,t make it ethical Does it ? How many senators and goveners have you hunted with on a BLUE COLLAR HUNT ?? Not where a polotician slung a projectial and had a paid tracker go find his mistake ! Laws by poloticians and so called game commisioners aren,t always the logical answer to "ETHICS" afield jmho
Tj

[rattus58]

Hi TJ.... :)

That's just it, no one is trying to tell you anything. You hunt with what YOU know will do the job for you. What you can accomplish may be far different than what I can accomplish with the same piece of equipment.

Aloha... :)

:cool: