Jim Zumbo's anti-gun blog

[Rocky Raab]

Hard to believe what got into the man's brain, but he's come out against anybody being able to own AR-15 or other (his words) "terrorist guns."


Zumbo Blog (http://outdoorlife.blogs.com/zumbo/2007/02/assault_rifles_.html)

If you decide to send a comment to his sponsors, be rational and polite. Remember that none of them had a chance to approve his copy before he posted it, and this may have caught them by surprise. I simply asked them to re-evaluate their sponsorship and reminded them that my future buying decisions might be affected by their response.

[gd357]

Man oh man... I can't believe it. Truly a sad day. I suppose that Mr. Zumbo may not have thought his comments through, but that is still no excuse for selling out. As far as his aversion to using such rifles for hunting purposes, he's more than welcome to use whatever he wants. Just don't tell me what to use. The principles this country was founded upon such as tolerance, and understanding are gone just like common sense.:(

gd

[Rocky Raab]

Here's a list of direct email addys:

webmaster@outdoorlife.com
webmaster@remington.com
tommy.millner@remington.com
dawn.lorello@swarovski.com
sales@gerberblades.com
benglish@mossyoak.com
pstrickland@mossyoak.com
domain.admin@CABELAS.COM
corporate@cabelas.com
info@stoneypoint.com
hans@himtnjerky.com
kimberly@himtnjerky.com

If you write them, be polite; I doubt if any of them reviewed his words before they were posted. Simply ask them if they believe Zumbo represents their thoughts and interests any longer.

BTW, Remington has already come out and said they are immediately evaluating their relationship with Zumbo. I'd expect other sponsors to do the same.

What reputation Zumbo had in this industry is probably ruined forever. He may have published his last words unless he eats a lot of humble pie.

[gd357]

Rocky,

Thanks for the list! I'm in the middle of a letter to Outdoor Life as I write this. The others will get a copy as well.

gd

[skeet]

With friends like him we surely don't need enemies. No more of his articles for me

[FIJI]

I have a signed Zumbo book and elk poster (gifts) that I will happily offer to get the bonfire started ! :mad:

[Classicvette63]

A couple things that I see. First, this guy has no clue as to what he is talking about. When he says that hunters would be better served with a a boltgun etc., because it is lighter than the ar-15 styles, wtf?I wish my Model 70 was as light as an ar-15.

Secondly, not really pertaining to his article but some of the comments posted in his blog, the .223 is not a deer round, period. I don't care if bullet maker X came out with a "deer" bullet for the .223, it ain't a deer round. Sure it can kill deer, so can a cb cap.

Third, as to the whole anti-gun movement, who cares? Really, who cares? They aren't going to change our minds just as we aren't going to change theirs. I like guns and have guns. If I want more guns, I will get more guns. The anti's can bluster all they want, they can't do a darn thing about it unless they want push to come to shove. Until they are ready to put their money where their mouth is, I really couldn't care less.

[Niteowl]

Looks to me that he has recanted his previous feelings on that other article...go to his web site and it is there in black and white,I guess if you raise enough stink....some can be persuaded

[skeet]

Now even the Brady Campaign has gotten ahold of the comments Zumbo made. People are really Pi$$ed:mad:

[fabsroman]

What a moron. I have watched his stupid show on a couple of occassions, but I can assure you that it will happen no more. Also, it the magazine at all related to the channel? If so, I might just cancel the entire thing because that channel is starting to get pretty boring.

[M.T. Pockets]

Wow...sometimes the most dangerous enemy can be the one you think is a friend.

The biggest ripple this will have is that he'll be quoted by the anti's forever in their attempts to ban or limit firearms ownership.

This is a wake up call for the rest of us.

I've never liked elitists. Zumbo just proved he is. I have a hard time believing that such an "expert" isn't aware of just how popular these types of rifles are. I thought I was the only guy that didn't have one. Most of my prairie dog hunting buddies have all switched over to them, one by one, from their bolt actions.

I don't care what anyone's reason is for owning one, if they want to hunt with it, more power to you. If you want to shoot pop cans as fast as you can from 200 yards, more power to you. If you want one for home defense, more power to you.

I see Zumbo is back peddling big time now, I think it's too late. He's going the way of Jimmy the Greek, Howard Cosell and Dan Rather. He's lost all credibility with the gun crowd and has a big of a chance to make it back as Michael Richards has hosting the next NAACP meeting.

[Rocky Raab]

If I may make suggestion...

To those who now subscribe to OL, do NOT shred or toss your renewal statements. To those who don't subscribe, go to the nearest magazine rack at your grocery and get a subscription card from an OL.

Now, send it in. But instead of checking the subscribe box, just write across it in black marker, "Not only NO, but Zumbo!" Let OL pay for the postage to get your message.

That goes for any Time-Warner product. Flood them.

[Tennessee Elkman]

See his reply he posted yesterday. Sounds like he's running for his life... and his job. He's taking some serious heat right now and his job(s) are on the line. Personally, I think he's toast.

[Tennessee Elkman]

Rocky,
I certainly don't proclaim your writing skills or writing savvy, but I respectfully request you take into consideration two things about the OL magazine.
First, the freedom of speech amendment comes into play here and I really think that an important part of the writing.
Secondly, the editor of OL, John Snow, has stated "His position that AR- and AK-style rifles don’t have a place among our “sporting arms” is not one that I personally, or Outdoor Life as a magazine, happens to share."
By blasting our displeasure with Outdoor Life by canceling subscriptions or have them pay for postage of subscription cards over one morons opinion is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Let's write letters and emails to his sponsors, let's slam him with thousands of blogs, but I'm not stopping shopping at Cabela's simply because of one idiots' opinion. Just because Swarovski gives him free binoculars does that mean I need to throw mine away or sell them on ebay?
One fools opinion is just that and he's back pedaling faster than he can keep up with the blogs. And I truly believe that this might be the straw that breaks the camels back because I've never like most of his opinions and this isn't the first time hes' done something stupid but it might be the last....

[Rocky Raab]

(I think you meant "defame" instead of "proclaim.")

The First Amendment guarantees free speech. It does not grant immunity from the results of said speech. If John Snow and the magazine disagree with Zumbo's original position, why did they allow it out? THEY have free speech, too - and that means they do NOT have to print whatever drops into the editor's inbox. A good editor pays serious attention to what any published bit will mean to his magazine, be that a libel suit, defamation of character, liability claims - or loss of advertising and subscription income.

They let Zumbo pour gasoline on the fire; they'll have to expect heat and ashes.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by Rocky Raab



They let Zumbo pour gasoline on the fire; they'll have to expect heat and ashes.

Very well said, Mr Raab.

This development of this whole issue is a fine example of what free speech is all about. The first amendment simply states that "...CONGRESS shall make no law..abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press..."

So long as no LAWS are passed prohibiting Jim Zumbo from ranting (or prohibiting the rest of us from peaceably responding to his rants), freedom of speech remains intact.

[Tennessee Elkman]

I agree.... Perhaps this is or was the response they were hoping to receive. We might all be talking about canceling our subscriptions, but at least we're talking... CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!?!?!?!?:D

[Rocky Raab]

It seems that we here at HuntChat can.

But some of the other hunting boards are melting down with internal spit fights over this. A small but vocal contingent seems to agree with Zumbo, the main complaint being about young "hoodie" types showing up at rifle ranges with ARs and AKs just to send as much ammo downrange as fast as possible - possibly even practicing up for mayhem.

A small number of shooters would wish that such guns were less available or at least less visible to the public - to better preserve the image of the rest of shooters.

A larger body says that such behavior is unfortunate, but if we ban or hide some guns, the rest will surely be banned as well.

The antis practice their divide and conquer tactics very well, indeed.

[Skinny Shooter]

I don't mind hearing or reading a sincere apology and then letting that person go with a "don't do that again" kind of thing. You know the type, the "I voted for it before I voted against it" kind. NOT!
But in this instance, his criticism of AR-style guns and others chaffs my butt more than the dry cold weather we've been having.
I'm tired of the worn out mis-labeling of these types of guns and their users.
His comments smack of the like of the Brady Campaign and other groups. He may retract his statements but I believe he still feels the same way as his blog states.

"I must be living in a vacuum. The guides on our hunt tell me that the use of AR and AK rifles have a rapidly growing following among hunters, especially prairie dog hunters. I had no clue."

Obviously...

"I call them "assault" rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles."

He had that right, it upsets me. I guess those beautiful black lines must scare him.
He shows a lack of education on this topic as he mis-labels any military-styled arm as an assault weapon. Someone in his position should know better after the fiasco of the assult weapon ban.

"This really has me concerned. As hunters, we don't need the image of walking around the woods carrying one of these weapons."

What image? Once again he demonizes a fellow group of shooters. Heck, an M1 Garand would make an excellent deer/bear rifle in the woods here in Pa

"To most of the public, an assault rifle is a terrifying thing. Let's divorce ourselves from them. I say game departments should ban them from the praries and woods."

And the best way to make the public understand, is thru proper education and portrayal of the firearm. Something the politicians, ant-gun lobby and COMPLICIT MEDIA have failed to do.

"Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting."

First, who in the hail do you think are you to spout something like that?

We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles."

That is a pretty ridiculous argument for him to try and validate his viewpoint with. Hope he feels comfortable with the loss of revenue because he attacked his "family" with dumbass comments. I've got to wonder if because he hasn't been on the web for a long time that he didn't realize how this would turn out.

I'm surprised he didn't mention how semi-shooters "spray the woods with gunfire" or how that deer died "in a hail of bullets.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[DogYeller]

Looks like Jim's gonna be looking for a job. I've heard that Outdoor Life has fired him, also.
Remington (http://www.remington.com/)

Check out the comments below his apology.
http://outdoorlife.blogs.com/zumbo/2007/02/i_was_wrong_big.html

[Gunslingergirl]

Apparently, Remington has severed their relationship with him. I haven't seen anything that says that Outdoor Life has. His blog is still listed on their site.

GSG

[Skinny Shooter]

Here's something from the Brady campaign: http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=88508969&blogID=231738183&MyToken=e54adf07-f3e3-41c4-b761-304a7318e1a4

Its great Remmy dropped him. Now maybe they can divert those funds to reasearch on how to keep their bolt handles from falling off... ;) :D

[Skinny Shooter]

Outdoor Life has shut down Zumbo's blog now due to the overwhelming response. :D
Now Bill McRae is supporting Zumbo.

[fabsroman]

This whole thing reminds me of the Leatherman fiasco during the last Presidential election. The owner of the company, I forget his name, took a stance in favor of Kerry and let it be known to everybody. I wrote him an e-mail before the election telling him that I would never buy another one of his products and that I was willing to bet that most of the users of his products were conservative minded. He wrote me a response stating that he was entirely willing to take the consequences of his actions and he also thought that the majority using his products were liberal. A couple months after the election, he sent out a mass e-mail apologizing for his previous position, and stating that while he took that position we should not make the employees of his company suffer as a result. Yeah right. If he doesn't want the employees of the company to suffer, he can make sure that they get paid before he does. What a crock. I saw a nice Leatherman set the other day at Wal-Mart, but refused to buy it even though it was a little bit cheaper and nicer than the Gerber they had. Mind you, I am not throwing out the leatherman multi tool that a friend gave me for participating in his wedding, but I will never say anything positive about them and I will never spend my money on one. Even steered my brother in-law away from them when he was looking for a multi-tool.

Just as people have the freedom of speech, people also have the freedom to spend their money how they like, and for me, that is not on Leatherman and it certainly is not on OL.

I am dying to buy an AR-15 and an AR-10, and might just have the money for them after this tax season. Maryland almost passed a law banning them last year, and now I have this idiot writing stuff like this. Personally, I would take an AR-10 deer hunting around here because they are almost as think as varmints. It is not unusual to see 10 to 15 at a time, and we are allowed to kill every single one of them if they do not have antlers. So why not use an AR-10?

I also understand the entire "punk" shooter issue because that is about the equivalent of one of my brothers. He has the Bushmaster AR-15, the Desert Eagle 50, several other handguns, and a Benelli SBE. I took him, a law enforcement friend of ours, and my dog to a farm to practice shooting. We got to the farm and before I knew what was going on, the two of them had taken out their Glocks and proceeded to fire them as quickly as possible. My dog jumped into the car through the open window. Thank God the window was open. I am sure the farm owner didn't like that either. However, if I have to put up with that once in a while to get people interested in shooting, so be it. We have even talked about entering 3 gun tournaments, but I just haven't had the time. Now, if I could only get him to join the NRA.

[Gunslingergirl]

What gets me about this whole thing is his excuse for why he wrote the original post. Basically it was "I was tired and I didn't think."

I write a blog for GSI and I never write a post that I haven't given a great deal of thought too before it is posted. In my opinion it is terribly irresponsible and an insult to your readers to post something off the top of your head.

Also, it seemed to strain credibility a bit that this guy has been an NRA member for 40 years and he didn't know that people used assault rilfes to hunt and that such use was controversial. I've only been closely involved with the hunting community for about a year and I know that.

What is really sad is that his thoughtless comments will effect more than just him. What about all the people who might lose their paychecks if his television show goes off the air?

GSG

[fabsroman]

People have responsibilties in life, and what they do will ultimately hurt a lot of people. Mr. Zumba probably has a wife and kids, and they will suffer as a result of this too, along with the employees of the show, and OL. However, so will the shooting community due to his stupidity. Should we worry about all the people that will be hurt by the cancelling of his show? I say no!!!!!!!!!!

Kind of like worrying about who will be hurt if you decide to sue a doctor for amputating the wrong leg. Yeah, his wife and children might be hurt and the hospital might be hurt, but you lost a leg.

I am going to be so pissed if this comment comes up in Maryland's General Assembly if the same "assault weapons" ban is proposed this year as was last year. It will just force me to buy both guns this year, and possibly a 50 BMG rifle too.

Speaking of stupidity, how about Tim Hardaway the basketball player saying that he "Hates gay people." He is back pedaling from that comment as quick as possible and saying that he was tired when he made it. Seems as though both he and Mr. Zumbo use the same PR firm or being tired is an excuse for stupidity.

[Andy L]

I sent Cabelas an email and got this reply....


Thank you for your comments. While Cabela’s believes everyone has the right to express their own opinions, we strongly disagree with Jim Zumbo’s February 16 posting on his Hunting with Jim Zumbo blog on Outdoor Life’s Web site.

Throughout our 46-year history, Cabela’s has firmly supported all aspects of shooting sports. We strongly support the Second Amendment of the Constitution of the United States and the right of every U.S. citizen to purchase, own and enjoy any legal firearm of their choosing.

While we fully support Mr. Zumbo’s First Amendment right of free speech, we believe his opinions on this matter are counter to those shared by Cabela’s and many of our customers. Cabela’s Legal Department is currently reviewing contractual obligations and commitments regarding our sponsorship of the Jim Zumbo Outdoors television show.

Have a great day.


Sounds like they may be trying to do the right thing.

[gd357]

My response from Gerber:

Following Jim Zumbo's recent comments, those of us at Gerber would like to clarify that we respect the opinion of our sponsored hunters and users however, we do not necessarily agree with all their opinions, nor do we endorse their public statements. Our presence and development in the tactical and hunting markets is proof-positive we are committed to supporting these industries and all those involved. Since Jim's blog was published he has issued this apology:
http://outdoorlife.blogs.com/zumbo/2007/02/i_was_wrong_big.html.

Thanks for supporting our rights and for supporting Gerber Legendary Blades.


Sounds like they are ignoring the issue. I'll ignore them.;)

A bigger issue is that his retraction didn't say anything about the "terrorists" he labeled in the initial statement. Hmmm...

gd

[Dan Morris]

Well, this dude isn't going to attend any of his seminars!Usually, the term 'eat themselves' pertains to politicians!
Dan
:mad:

[BILLY D.]

Fabs

Your response above mirrors my feelings about the EBAY, Paypal issue.

I vote with my pocketbook also. Also it was not my intention to crap in anybodys mess kit when I said what I did about those two organizations. I am just an extremely loyal persaon when it comes to firearms and legislation that affects them. I am a hard headed German to the Max. I am very firm in my beliefs.

Best wishes, Bill

[skeet]

Hate to tell you Fabs but there is already an Assault weapons ban bill in the Md General Assembly It's Senate Bill 43. They didn't waste anytime on that one did they. They had it prefiled before the legislature even opened. Usually a 100 or so bills pre filed every year. Better get in your sock and go buy one now. I got a Bushmaster varminter at Cabela's last January(06) at the Cabela's in Hamburg. Wouldn't let me have the 30 rounder that came with it though. I do have a Colt if you are interested. Unfired too....Bring two socks!!
Link

http://mlis.state.md.us/2007rs/billfile/sb0043.htm

Stupid stupid stupid

:rolleyes: :confused: :mad:

[fabsroman]

This crap really pisses me off. I just sent this to my state rep.

Mr. Garagiola,

I’ll start off by stating that I oppose Senate Bill 43 and any restriction on the sale of possession of firearms by law abiding citizens. If I am not mistaken, part of your campaign last year relied on common sense legislation, wherein you were very careful not to set forth that you are a democrat. I too believe in common sense legislation and believe that political party affiliation should not block it. However, I do not believe that this bill is common sense legislation. I also believe your campaign relied on the fact that you had been involved in the military. As such, I am sure you are aware that none of these “assault” weapons commit crimes. Further, how many crimes were committed in 2006 with the “assault” weapons listed in the proposed Md. Code Ann. Pub. Safety §5-101? I am willing to bet that more people died in the State of Maryland last year from aggressive driving than from the assault weapons listed in Senate Bill 43. Maybe, just maybe, if you can provide me with some facts on why you support this bill, I might not be so against it. If it is just the mere fear of these “weapons”, then I have no support for it. As an example, please do not provide me with the 2001 sniper shooting case because I think that was a terrible screw up on law enforcement’s part and the chief of police for Montgomery County who later wrote a book about the entire matter.

When I am not practicing law or accountancy, or preparing tax returns, I spend the rest of my time with my family and/or outdoors. I am an avid outdoorsman, and I spend a lot of time and money on cycling, hunting, shooting, fishing, and boating, in no particular order. I have been hunting and shooting with my father since I was five (5) years old, and have been using firearms since I was seven (7) years old. Firearms were a big part of our trips to the “country” and they continue to be a big part of my life. I still hunt and shoot with my father, brothers, and sisters whenever I get the chance. While I prefer shooting sporting clays at several ranges around the state, with the majority of my shooting being at Prince Georges County Trap & Skeet right by NASA in Greenbelt, I would not hesitate to take time out to go shooting with my brother and try out his Bushmaster AR-15.

Senate Bill 43 mentions Bushmaster semi-automatic rifles, but does not designate AR-15 or AR-10. Is this merely a cute way of getting uninformed people to think that AR-15’s and AR-10’s are not being banned, or is it that the only AR-15 and AR-10 being banned is the Bushmaster series, which is generally the cheapest of the series at around $1,000 for an entry level gun. I find it extremely hard to believe that the majority of violent crime occurring in this state is with the use of AR-15’s, AR-10’s, AR-100’s, AR180’s, Barrett light .50 cal semi autos, or the other expensive firearms that are listed in Md. Code Ann. Pub. Safety §5-101. Again, if you can provide me with some facts on this, I am willing to listen.

Last year, I was interested in buying an AR-15 and an AR-10 and was appalled to see a similar bill to Senate Bill 43 in the legislature. Luckily, it did not pass and I was not forced to spend four thousand dollars ($4,000.00) for the guns last year, and I am hoping that will be the case with Senate Bill 43 this year. I would prefer to buy them when money is not an issue (i.e., I have a baby daughter on the way). Please take note that I am adamantly against this bill and I do reside in your district. In fact, my father and brother have been clients of Paul Stein and I have referred other criminal cases to Mr. Stein on occasion. In fact, I have lived in this community my entire life. If I am not mistaken, you have moved here from Michigan. I attended elementary, intermediate, and high school in this county. I went to the University of Maryland for undergrad and the University of Baltimore School of Law, and have remained in this county after graduating law school. In fact, most of my clients are from this county. My parents, brothers, and sisters continue to reside in this county too. In your campaign literature, you seemed like a stand up guy, so get tough on criminals, not on gun owners. For the most part, gun owners are law abiding citizens, and to merely ban us from having these guns does not mean a criminal will not be able to get them some where else. At one time, the federal government had banned most of these weapons, and that ban was allowed to die when the sunset provision came into effect. I have not noticed an increase in crime from the allowed sale of these weapons. Spend more time building jails for criminals and instituting longer mandatory sentences, instead of spending time taking guns away from law abiding citizens. Be tough on criminals, don’t make law abiding citizens criminals merely because they do not register their “assault” weapons by December 1, 2007.

I could probably write a lot more about this subject since I am so passionate about it, but my clients’ tax returns are calling. I apologize if this e-mail is not up to legal standards, but I’m not getting paid for it and do not have time to proof read it. Maybe one day, we can sit down and talk about this matter in depth.

Very truly yours,

Fabrizio Roman

[fabsroman]

I read the rest of the replies from page 2, and agree completely. I vote with my pocket book too.

Sad thing is I figure out two years ago that I prefer Buck knives to Gerber anyway, so I wouldn't be buying any of their stuff anyway.

I have the Cabelas catalog right next to me and had two pages ear marked so I could order some t-shirts and a waterfowl decoy. Lucky for them they gave the reply they did.

I don't read the magazine and I don't care for the show anyway, so I cannot hurt them their either, but I will be sure to pick up a book and read it before I sti in front fo the tube and watch his show.


Billy,

If you can show me how ebay is bad for the shooting sports, I will be more than happy to stop buying and selling things on there.

[Skyline]

One thing I found interesting Fabs is that eBay will let you sell firearms accessories, reloading equipment, etc, but no firearms.

From the hunting stand point you can sell bear hunts.....heck any kind of hunt, but under taxidermy you can't sell a bear rug......deer and moose heads, caribou heads, coyotes, beavers......but no bear parts of any kind.

In some misguided way they seem to think that banning the sale of all bear parts will prevent illegal trade..............yet there is no proof anything sold on eBay was legally hunted, or for that matter any item could be stolen property.

Sorry, this kind of jacks the thread, but you asked Bill.........and I am sure he has more info than my few comments above.

[Rocky Raab]

Skyline, see the comments in the eBay/PayPal thread.

[Riposte1]

Rocky;
All I can say is thank you sir. Good Job.

I understand that Reminton has severed ties with Mr. Zumbo and that OL has pulled down his BLOG at least temporarily. Also his other sponsers seem to be very uncomfortable with his publiziced opinion.

OTOH today, his fans seem to consist of the "Brady Bunch"...maybe he will be able to guide some of them on an Elk hunt.

Riposte

[PigPig]

Thank you Mr Zumbo for his banning evil terrorist rifle but keeping his sporting rifle blog.

After quoting his supportive article on their website, the Brady posted 2 followups:

Sunday, February 18, 2007

The tragic proliferation of Sniper Rifles

I would like to take a moment to comment on the proliferation of Sniper Rifles.
Sniper Rifles are typically equipped with a high-powered scope, and every single one of them can blow through the body armor cops wear. They can even penetrate multiple police cars. Does the Second Amendment protect cop-killer Sniper Rifles? The NRA certainly thinks so, along with the powerful gun lobby that wants your children and your law enforcement officers to be at risk from these weapons of mass destruction. Some of these Sniper Rifles can even penetrate ballistic or armored glass, lightly armored vehicles, and armored limousines. Senator Ted Kennedy attempted to solve this with an important bill that would have banned armor piercing ammunition and protected lawful firearm commerce:

"Another rifle caliber, the 30.30 caliber, was responsible for penetrating three officers' armor and killing them in 1993, 1996, and 2002. This ammunition is also capable of puncturing light-armored vehicles, ballistic or armored glass, armored limousines, even a 600-pound safe with 600 pounds of safe armor plating.....

..It is outrageous and unconscionable that such ammunition continues to be sold in the United States of America.."

Should our elected officials live under the threat of reprisal on their lives from disgruntled constituents? The Gun Lobby seems to think so. We disagree.

Sniper Rifles can be equipped with precision optics above even what the Military uses, allowing a sniper to deliver rounds within millimeters of accuracy - enabling them to engage targets at distances of well over one hundred meters. Is there a pressing need to be able to kill with accuracy at that distance? It is too far to justify as self defense. It is too far for hunting. It is only useful for those who wish to murder from afar.

Large caliber Sniper Rifles such as the .50 Browning Machine Gun can derail freight cars, shoot down aircraft and helicopters, damage vital ground equipment such as power substations, fuel tanks, and air traffic control, and cause complete chaos. For more information on why large caliber machine-gun rounds must be banned, visit http://www.50caliberterror.com. A shipment of large caliber machine-gun round sniper rifles made by Steyr turned up in Iran, and are being used on our own soldiers, as the .50 bullets easily defeat their body armor, their up-armored humvees, and even APCs.

Many forward thinking, progressive politicians such as Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, Hillary Clinton, and Barack Obama have voted against Center-Fire Rifle Ammunition of types for Sniper Rifles, but due to the pressure and massive financial resources of the gun industry, the necessary steps to protect our homes and lives have not been attained.

Sniper Rifles have been used by murderers and spree killers for years, with notable incidents such as the Beltway Snipers, the Clocktower Sniper, and more.

ANY rifle configured and equipped as a sniper rifle has no sporting purpose especially as a hunting rifle. They are too big and heavy to take to the field. Designed for distance shooting, they are useless for the ranges at which game animals are normally shot, and when used on sporting sized game at range they often just wound the animal, inhumanely forcing it to die slowly while the would-be hunter tracks it to finish it off. Most Sniper Rifles fire atypically large cartridges and ultra high velocity ammunition that can travel much greater distances that standard ammunition. The danger imposed from missed shots and ricochetes from these specialty rounds is unreasonable.

Most of these rifles carry multiple rounds, with either an automatic mechanism, or a quick toggle action to rapidly move another bullet into the breech, ready to fire into another victim. In most states, they are nearly unrestricted. Anyone over the age of 18 can buy one. If they can't pass a background check, they skirt the NCIS system by going to a gunshow, or finding a private sale in the newspaper. A murderer camped at a distance from a public gathering could quickly turn it into a massacre dwarfing anything we have seen before in the United States, if they had a Sniper Rifle. If they adopted hit and run tactics, entire portions of our country could be shut down.

Sniper Rifles shoot a high powered bullet that is almost always fatal. They are designed for one thing- delivering powerful overkill with deadly precision. You don't need the kind of power and accuracy that can kill a man at five hundred yards for hunting rabbits or defending your house.

We should also give commendations to France because many years ago they designated any firearm capable of shooting military ammunition as a military arm, illegal to posess without a special permit and unlawful to use for hunting. The 223, 308, 7mm mauser, 30-06, and 6.5x55 have no place in the hunting fields of France. Firearms shooting these calibers are military weapons only designed for killing PEOPLE and should be kept out of the hands of the general population. Because they have no hunting purpose, there is no reason for civilians to own them.

Every state in the USA has hunting equipment rules that limit the caliber of firearm used to take game. They also limit the types of rifles, length, magazine capacity, etc. States should amend these hunting regulations to restrict the use of "sniper" rifles, specialty "sniper" cartridges, and "sniper" ammunition. Limits on weight, barrel length, bipods and tripods, thumbhole stocks and pistol grips, night vision type scopes, scopes of excessive magnification, super magnum and high velocity ammunition, and military slings should be imposed. They have no place in the hunting fields of America and hunting usage should not be used as an argument for civilians to own such firearms and weapons. There are more than ample hunting rifles, cartridges, and rounds of ammunition to choose from without them.

Let us hope that in a safer, saner America, we will succeed in our efforts to restrict the deadly spread of long distance murder rifles.


http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?f...0F5285554845729

[PigPig]

and then:

Tuesday, February 20, 2007

The most common killers may surprise you

Once again today, we are all struggling with reports about terrible losses of lives to gun violence. What a disturbed teenager in Utah and a tormented businessman in Pennsylvania have in common is that they had access to guns. Horrific mass killings cannot be committed with knives or baseball bats or bare fists. Weak gun laws have led to a glut of weapons on the streets. And as a result, bitter human frustrations lead to gun violence. Anger leads to killings. When will our Nation wake up and confront the tragic reality that we make it far too easy for dangerous people to have access to guns?

In Utah, two 28-year-old women, a 15-year-old girl, a 52-year-old man and 24-year-old man were killed by a shotgun-toting gunman.

Shotguns fire an extremely lethal large caliber round that delivers either a cloud of bullets (shot) or a single large slug. Sawed off and assault shotguns are popular with gangs and terrorists engaged in urban warfare- they have enormous knockdown power, and they don't even need to be aimed as the hail of shot will takes precision out of the equation. All it takes is ten minutes with a hacksaw and a shotgun can be turned into highly compact, concealable mayhem.

Shotguns used in World War One were so lethal, that governments such as Germany lobbied to ban them from organized warfare, because they were inhumane and extraordinarily dangerous.

The gun industry continues to try to market weapons such as the Jackhammer automatic shotgun, Streetsweepers, and other deadly weaponry that was deemed so dangerous, it isn't even labeled a firearm. They are destructive devices and regulated by the National Firearms Act. Does a "Destructive Device" sound like something you go duck hunting with? Unfortunately, with a few cosmetic tweaks, the same lethal weapons are manufactured for "sporting purposes."

Shotguns aren't the only deadly killer that the gun lobby has tried to wrap up in the American flag, history, and apple pie. What caliber kills more people every year in the U.S. than any other?

The .22.

22s are commonly found in three flavors. 22 short, 22 long and 22 Long Rifle. All of them are lethal. Most Saturday Night Specials come in .22 caliber. These handguns are not useful for sport or self-defense because their short barrels make them inaccurate and their low quality of construction make them dangerous and unreliable. They are, however, favored by criminals because of their low cost and easy concealability.

Let us repeat: more people are killed by the .22 every year, than any other caliber.

.22 are indeed deadly in shots to the body, because they don't go through entirely and they bounce off bones, creating more havoc. They have the ability to penetrate through gaps in law enforcement officer's kevlar, such as at the sides. If a .22 bullet enters the head, it will fatally ricochet around in the skull.

.22s are also the most easy of all the rounds to use with a silencer. They are a favorite of assassins performing mob kills, using a semi-automatic .22 or a revolver chambered in that caliber along with a silencer.

Creative criminals create penguns, cell-phone guns, knife guns, and more, all using the .22. It is truly the most dangerous of all calibers in terms of human cost per year, if not in mass and size. The tiny .22 can travel over a mile, and this fact is bragged about in promotional literature.

Many people are killed and injured by stray rounds traveling through the air and striking innocent victims, even children. Often people in the country will shoot off the back of their porch - exercising their rights, no doubt - and end up causing deadly harm to someone else's family.

Do cut-down shotguns and silenced .22s belong on our streets, or in our schools? Should criminals have a ready access to the more 'innocent' versions, ripe for conversion to more lethal configurations?

The Brady Campaign is making our stand to fight against the gun lobby, once and for all. We may not be able to eradicate murder in the human heart, but if we keep those who would terrorize our children and our malls from having easy access to deadly weapons, it will be worth it if but one child's life is saved.



:mad: :mad:

[Skinny Shooter]

Boy was there a lot of garbage in those two posts.
Wish I had the time to pick them apart but it wouldn't change their minds anyways.
thanks PigPig

[Andy L]

Mr Zumbo really did it this time, eh? And it couldnt have happened at a worse time.

The Brady Bunch, no matter if its true of false, are taking him into the fold as a hunter on their side. No matter what Z says, that cant be changed.

For whatever reason, the 08 presidential election is in full swing already. Obama, Clinton, Rudy, McCaine, Edwards and Romney, all anti gun anyhow, are gonna run with it too.

Were in trouble folks. We dont have the numbers. Even many gun owners dont have the stomach for a fight, for whatever reason. I hate to say it, but this is the beginning of the end. I was chastised not long ago, just before the dark election of 06 for making too big of a deal of it. Saying I was off the mark for the remarks I made.

Its coming folks, right now. Get ready to get your gun license. Get ready for many of your guns to be banned. Then get ready to lose your license.

Thanks Jim. We appreciate it. :mad:

[Montana Cowboy]

Howdy Folks
Dumbo...I mean Zumbo pretty much put his foot in his mouth.
Just because a rifle looks a certain way dosen't make it any less deadly / dangerous. Like I tell people would you know the difference if you were shot with a AR-15 in .223 caliber in the left shoulder and then shot in the right shoulder with a Remington 700 in the same caliber? Obviously they wouldn't, all they would know is that they are not having a good day.
I know folks who hunt deer with their AR'S IN .308 CAL and I don't have a problem with it. They are serious hunters, make the first shot count and don't go spraying and praying that they hit the deer.
Thanks for the web sites Rocky they will be hearing from me too.
MC

[Aim to maim]

Just in case you all had not seen it, Mr. Zumbo's "apology/explanation/mea culpa is posted below for your edification.

I especially like the part about "I was hunting coyotes, and after the hunt was over and being beat up by 60 mph winds all day..."

A bit of cheese to go with his whine would be good at this point. He would have been far more credible had he just claimed he was drunk at the time.

Ted Nugent, mentioned in the last paragraph was the first to jump to Mr. Zumbo's defense on one or more websites. I never cared much for Mr. Nugent anyway. Now I have another reason.

Flame suit on, fire away.



"Someone once said that to err is human. I just erred, and made without question, the biggest blunder in my 42 years of writing hunting articles.

My blog inflamed legions of people I love most..... hunters and shooters. Obviously, when I wrote that blog, I activated my mouth before engaging my brain.

Let me explain the circumstances surrounding that blog. I was hunting coyotes, and after the hunt was over and being beat up by 60 mph winds all day, I was discussing hunting with one of the young guides. I was tired and exhausted, and I should have gone to bed early. When the guide told me that there was a "huge" following of hunters who use AR 15's and similar weapons to hunt prairies dogs, I was amazed. At that point I wrote the blog, and never thought it through.

Now then, you might not believe what I have to say, but I hope you do. How is it that Zumbo, who has been hunting for more than 50 years, is totally ignorant about these types of guns. I don't know. I shot one once at a target last year, and thought it was cool, but I never considered using one for hunting. I had absolutely no idea how vast the numbers of folks are who use them.

I never intended to be divisive, and I certainly believe in United we Stand, Divided we Fall. I've been an NRA member for 40 years, have attended 8 national NRA conventions in the last 10 years, and I'm an advisory board member for the United States Sportsmen's Alliance which actively fights anti-hunters and animal rights groups for hunter's rights.

What really bothers me are some of the unpatriotic comments leveled at me. I fly the flag 365 days a year in my front yard. Last year, through an essay contest, I hosted a soldier wounded in Iraq to a free hunt in Botswana. This year, through another essay contest, I'm taking two more soldiers on a free moose and elk hunt.

When I started blogging, I was told to write my thoughts, expressing my own opinion. The offensive blog I wrote was MY opinion, and no one else's. None of the companies that I deal with share that opinion, nor were they aware of what I had written until this firestorm started.

Believe it or not, I'm your best friend if you're a hunter or shooter, though it might not seem that way. I simply screwed up. And, to show that I'm sincere about this, I just talked to Ted Nugent, who everyone knows, and is a Board member of the NRA. Ted is extremely active with charities concerning our wounded military, and though he's known as a bowhunter, Ted has no problem with AR 15's and similar firearms. My sincerity stems from the fact that Ted and I are planning a hunt using AR 15's. I intend to learn all I can about them, and again, I'm sorry for inserting my foot in my mouth."

[Dom]

Well I'd say that this is a good WAKE UP call to a bunch of guys and gals out there who are not NRA members because of this or that the NRA does or does not do.

We're in this together and gotta stick together. I mean, to say, well, I don't need or use this or that type pistol or weapon so who cares if it's outlawed -- is not the right answer. If our rights are not represented, it won't be long before your M9 or 870 or 1400 or 7400 are also on the 'hit' list.

The NRA represents us on the legal front, support them not because of what they do or don't do, but because of what they are defending, the right of legal law abiding citizens to own a variety of weapons, Waidmannsheil, Dom. (NRA Endowment Life Member)

[hubel458]

Zumbo can always do a cooking show on a ladies channel-
He and others around, even other writers
at times, are a symptom of the sporting goods store/no gunshop syndrome. Like 5 acres of tents, treestands, fishing stuff,
boats ,atvs, safes, shoes, clothing,
feed, decoys,ad nauseum..........and
a puny 200 sq ft of politically correct guns.
He opened his mouth and ended up a
blithering idiot, helping the Brady bunch.

Famous gun types should say enlightened stuff like
"If she had gun collection...
I'm the father".......................Ed

[skeet]

From Outdoor Life and they have dumped dum..er..Zumbo also. At least they did the right thing:D

[Skinny Shooter]

I found these on another site:
http://www.hunt101.com/img/475125.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/img/475137.jpg

[Dan Morris]

I noticed a few minutes ago, Cabelas/Gerber Knives and NRA have also dumped him. Now, if people would do the same for the Kenedy family................................
Dan
;)

[Aim to maim]

Below I've posted Mr. Zumbo's latest apology/whine I found on another forum, supposedly originally posted on Mr. Nugent's website. I'm just passing it on here and cannot vouch for its authenticity.

I find it rather lame, but that's just my opinion. Note he says he is "pro-hunting" but makes no mention of being "pro right to keep and bear arms." The right to hunt, which is the only thing that seems to matter to him, is indeed precious, as I think all of us would agree. However, the right to own firearms for potential self-defense is far, far more important in the big picture. It appears that he still just doen't get it.

ZUMBO POST

"The last few days have been an educational experience, to say the least. My ill-conceived inflammatory blog, as all of you now know, set off a firestorm that, I’m told, has never before been equaled. I’m not proud of that.
Let me say this at the outset. My words here are from the heart, and all mine. No one can censor me, and I answer to no one but myself. And I have no one to blame but myself. Outdoor Life, a magazine that I worked for full-time as Hunting Editor for almost 30 years, fired me yesterday. My TV show was cancelled yesterday. Many of my sponsors have issued statements on their website to sever all relationships. This may cause many of you to do backflips and dance in the streets, but, of course, I’m not laughing, nor am I looking for sympathy. I don’t want a pity party.

They say hindsight is golden. Looking back, I can’t believe I said the words “ban” and “terrorist” in the context that I did. I don’t know what I was thinking when I wrote that. I can explain this as sheer ignorance and an irresponsible use of words. What I’ve learned over the last few days has enlightened and amazed me. As a guy who hunts 200 days a year, does seminars on hunting, wrote for six hunting magazines, had a hunting TV show, and wrote 20 books on hunting, how could I have been so ignorant and out of touch with reality in the world of hunting and shooting?

But I was. I really can’t explain it, maybe because I just summarily dismissed the firearms in question in my mind when I saw them in magazines and catalogs. I saw one “black” firearm in a hunting camp in all my 50 years of hunting, and I shot one last year off a boat when fishing in Alaska. To tell the truth, it was fun and I enjoyed it immensely, but I never considered one for use in hunting. I have to tell you that I have had a revelation. I’m learning that many of my pals own AR-15’s and similar firearms and indeed use them for hunting. I was totally unaware that they were being used for legitimate hunting purposes. That is the absolute truth.

My biggest regret is not the financial impact of all this. I’m almost 67 and retirement is an option. The dreadful impact here is that I inadvertently struck a spear into the hearts of the people I love most…America’s gun owners. And, even though this huge cadre of dedicated people have succeeded in stripping me of my career, I hold no grudges. I will continue to stand as firm on pro hunting as I’ve ever done. But what’s different now is that I’ll do all I can to educate others who are, or were, as ignorant as I was about “black” rifles and the controversy that surrounds them. My promise to you is that I’ll learn all I can about these firearms, and by the time this week is out, I’ll order one. The NUGE has invited me to hunt with him using AR-15’s, and I’m eager to go, and learn. I’ll do all I can to spread the word.

I understand that many of you will not accept this apology, believing that the damage has been done and there’s no way to repair it. You have that right. But let me say this. I mentioned this above, and I’ll repeat it. I’m willing to seize this opportunity to educate hunters and shooters who shared my ignorance. If you’re willing to allow me to do that, we can indeed, in my mind, form a stronger bond within our ranks. Maybe in a roundabout way we can bring something good out of this."

Jim Zumbo

[skeet]

He blames the average joe for destroying his career!

"And, even though this huge cadre of dedicated people have succeeded in stripping me of my career, I hold no grudges."

Why does he blame us for doing that? He did it to himself! Now how to tell him. I do have his phone number(don't ask!) I really don't think he will ever get it. :confused: :rolleyes:

[Riposte1]

Skeet, Aim to Maim;

I pretty much agree. Apparently from his response he does not get it.

I am a life long Hunter. I will support hunting as long as I live, but there is no constitutional right guaranateed specifically in the Constitution.

We are not, for example, guaranteed the right to "Keep and bear sporting goods".

Riposte

[M.T. Pockets]

Sorry, this don't cut it either.

He says he can't believe he used the words "terrorist" and "banned" I wonder if he'd feel that way if it wasn't for the backlash the statement created. Would he have issued an apology if he hadn't receive any negative comments ?

The fact that these rifles are used for his idea of " legitimate hunting purposes " seems irrelavent. Who made him the spokesman for what is legitimate or not.

By the way, isn't that a "black" synthetic stock rifle he's holding ?

The less press attention he gets from now on, the better.

[fabsroman]

Everybody makes mistakes and are entitled to a second chance. Maybe this will be a good lesson for politicians too. Maybe they will finally see that there are a bunch of sportsmen and gun owners in the world that are not going to stand for this crap.

I wouldn't care about owning a firearm if every person in the world were nice, but they aren't. I have friends of mine that never shot a firearm before they saw what happened in New Orleans. Now, they went out and bought handguns and have been going to the range. I went to lunch with them, and they were worried about not having an AR if stuff hit the fan, so I told them to buy one. Now, Maryland legislators are talking about banning them. It wasn't bad enough that LEO's too firearms away from law abiding citizens in New Orleans and have not yet given them back. Now, Maryland wants to ban some firearms on top of it. With politicians in office like this, it really pisses me off. Too bad Nagin got re-elected. Maybe, just maybe, he will lose enough votes over the gun issue that he will not be re-elected again. I just think good people do not want to run for office because of all the crap involved.

I'll accept Mr. Zumbo's apology, but he will have to earn my respect.

[Dan Morris]

Guess he didn't understand Yamamotos comment bout
waiking a sleeping giant.........................
Dan

[fabsroman]

By the way, I just want to be clear that I am not going to be supporting Mr. Zumbo by watching his show or endorsing him, and I do believe that people need to pay for their mistakes. With that said, I believe Mr. Zumbo has paid for his mistake with the loss of his job and endorsements, and I truly believe that he is sorry for screwing up. I'll harbor no ill will to him should I actually run in to him somehow.

[Andy L]

"I wouldn't care about owning a firearm if every person in the world were nice, but they aren't."

Fabs, I honestly cannot believe you just wrote those words. If everyone were nice, you wouldnt care about owning a firearm. You would be willing to give up hunting, range time and just the shear pleasure of the right to own a firearm if "everyone were nice".

Thats sick. I just cannot believe what I just read.

[Montana Cowboy]

Hey,Like Fab said "We ALL make mistakes" . MC:D

[fabsroman]

Yep, everybody makes mistakes, including me. Mine just aren't as big as Zumbo's. See, if we go off of my statement, there is no way that guns will ever be banned because there is no way that there will be no crime or violence in the world. Yeah, I wouldn't want to give up my guns even if everybody is nice, but it makes me look like a good guy in the anti's eyes. Sure I would give up my guns if you could promise me no crime or violence, or the possibility of a terrorist attack or an invasion by China. Quite honestly, if I had the choice between getting rid of guns and there being absolutely no violence in the world any more, I think I would be fine with it. However, I sit in way too many Court rooms where I get to see batteries that happened without the use of firearms. I have seen pics of women beaten pretty badly without the use of a firearm. So, there is no way that violence will ever end. Personally, I think everybody that is mentally stable should be required to carry a gun. That way, people will think twice about being violent.

What would the world be like if we all got along? If there were no murder, rapes, beatings, child molesting, etc? Andy, if God came down tomorrow and asked you if you would be willing to forego firearms for the rest of your life in return for him making it so no child would ever be molested again, how could you ever say no, I think I would prefer to shoot my guns for the fun of it. I know I couldn't.

Okay, it is really late and I have been working on tax returns for way too long today. I even think I contradicted myself in this post a couple of times. Hence, I am getting to sleep.

[Andy L]

"Andy, if God came down tomorrow and asked you if you would be willing to forego firearms for the rest of your life in return for him making it so no child would ever be molested again, how could you ever say no,"

Fabs if this happened, I would probably drawn iorn on god and tell him to tell Pelosi, or whatever deamon got to him to make a deal, to stick it where the sun dont shine. God would never ask good people to do something like that without being pinched. Either that or shoot the imposter.

I know you didnt mean what you said, or at least dont think so? You dont have guns for fear of your life, I know better than that. You like the same things I do.

I couldnt resist callin you on it though. You like to lawyer up on me all the time.

:)

[skeet]

In both those posts you seriously sound like one of the Brady Bunch. Seriously. What you are doing is demonizing firearms. The way it comes across is that guns are responsible for all the evil things in the world. I know you know better but this is exactly what Zumbo did. He demonized a certain type of firearm and their owners. C'mon man...I know you are tired and the wind really hasn't been blowing 60 but these are the exact tactics the antis use against us. Save the chillun. I'd love to see no harm come to anyone in the world..but them A-rabs don't believe in the same god as you and me...not really and them Chinese don't believe in no god. And I can really use the double and triple negatives to make me look like a ol' redneck country boy. But you know better than to say stuff that ain't even close to reality. Guns are only as evil as their masters:eek: :D

Give up my guns if god came down and stopped all the bad stuff in the world? Well, Hillary thinks she is God! Give 'em to her!

[fabsroman]

What I find ironic is that after being on this board for around 6+ years, you guys really don't know me. Yes, I have guns because I use them for fun things, but also because I have nightmares. When I lived with my parents, I had nightmares about people breaking into the house and forcing me to make a shot with my dad held hostage. I have had the same nightmare happen on the hunting field where two guys have handguns and have my dad hostage and are talking to me through his handheld. Sometimes, I am 200 yards away with the .300 Win Mag and I have to make two shots in a crosswind. Sometimes I am 50 yards behind the morons high in a treestand. Recently, I have been having nightmares about people coming into my townhouse and me having to defend my wife and baby. Sometimes they are just plain bad guys, but last night's nightmare involved bad cops. I also have another nightmare where there are masked guys outside my window involved in a firefight with the police and I shoot both of them with an AR-10. At first, that nightmare resulted in both of the perps being my brother and me being responsible for their deaths. Since those initial nightmares, it has migrated to them not being my brothers, but into all kinds of other scenarios, like a police sniper shooting at me because he thinks I am one of the bad guys, to me being prosectured and sued afterward for murder/wrongful death. The recent one about bad cops breaking in probably has to do with a protective order case I am handling right now against a police officer. I cannot get into the details, but suffice it to say that he has wrongfully threatened people with his handgun. Oh yeah, then there is the nightmare where I have webcams set up in certain rooms of my parents' house so I can make sure that they are okay, and I witness bad cops executing them because they will not open the gun safe. That dream has migrated to my brothers also seeing it via web link and them getting into a fire fight with the police and heading to my house so we can alert the media and FBI. The list of my horrible dreams goes on and on. My wife talks to me about hers, but I don't feel like talking to her about these much, so most of the time I tell her that I didn't have any. Every once in a while I will tell her about one though.

Real life, my wife and I were awoken at 5:00 in the morning to what sounded like people coming up our stairway. The dog was barking and I could hear voices. Both my wife and I were scared to death, and I was extremely glad I had the HK 9mm at hand. Turned out to be some furniture delivery men delivering some couches to the next door neighbor whose staircase is right behind our bed. Man, was that a relief.

For those of you that live in the country, I am willing to bet that the crime rate is rather low. Here, while the crime rate is pretty decent, there are some shady spots. You should see the number of child molesters that live in my area. It isn't as bad as some of the crappier parts of the city, but there are enough to have me worried about it.

"Fabs if this happened, I would probably drawn iorn on god and tell him to tell Pelosi, or whatever deamon got to him to make a deal, to stick it where the sun dont shine. God would never ask good people to do something like that without being pinched. Either that or shoot the imposter."

I have no idea what iorn means, but maybe my example was a bad one for those that do not believe in God. Your response Andy is also a bad one though. We could go back and forth about the God statement (e.g., what if it was truly God, what if would truly happen), but we all know God isn't going to come down and promise us that there will no longer be any crime if guns are taken away. If Hilary wants to make a promise to me that all crime will go away and we no longer will need a criminal Court system if we give up our guns, and she is willing to back this promise with her life and the rest of the lives of those in Congress voting on it, I am all for it. Of course, we would need to medically install GPS's in them so they can be located for execution the day after the bill is signed because we all know crime isn't going to stop and the criminals aren't going to turn in their guns. We all know that China will continue to produce guns and there will be a black market for them for all the criminals here. I don't think getting rid of guns will work, but I want my guns more for fear of the 300 lb criminal and/or the criminal that will have one illegally while I have nothing, than for all the fun times that I have had with guns.

We can continue to go on and on with this debate, but I am going to leave it alone. You guys can continue to feel like you know everything that I am about, but I don't think anybody knows that. This is one of those subjective debates where there is no right or wrong answer, kind of like the debate I am having about God in another thread, which I am going to make my last post to in a minute. We presume to know why the arabs hate us, but we have no clue. That is probably like the feud between the Hatfields and the McCoys, which started over something stupid and continued for generations over stupidity.

[rattus58]

These are my two cents worth... :)

To make a statement like that, has to come from inside. This was not a thought out statement, that is why it is so attendant upon us to rid ourselves of those who harbor such bias, especially in public forum.

We all make mistakes. Apologizing is the right thing to do. I forgive Jim Zumbo his transgression. I don't hold grudges. But I have been involved in the hunting community working to protect our hunting and gun rights since 1993. In a sense, JZ is now a sacrificial lamb, but it had to be done. If you don't think shumer, Pelosi, Reed, Kerry aren't going to push for assault weapons ban and other gun control issues as hard as they can now they are in power, its important to remember that we must take anything and everything seriously.

To have JZ, the NOTED writer come out with such passion against a god given gun right without thought is serious stuff. It says what he is and who he is... this was not just a mistake, this is evident of his core belief, and I for one want no part of it..regardless that he is a gentleman.

There are somethings that one issue can take my vote... guns is one of them.

So though I agree with some that he probably had no malice, although he was pretty passionate about it.. I'm giving him a BIG benefit of the doubt here, but to so blithely dismiss a gun right, to so blithely remark that they are terrorist guns, and to so blithely state that they had no business in any hunting environment tells me a little something about him that is appalling, at the least, worrisome at best. I am a conspiracy theorist.

So being a conspiracy theorist that I am, a short coming I'm sure, you deal with cancers and gangrenous the same way... you cut it out, you cut if off.

He also has some aplologists working out there for him now too. MSNBC has an article about how he got seared by the gun owners. Some author, George Wray, I think it was, says this is how we are taught to deal with the infidels by the NRA! Wrong!

The response to Zumbo wasn't crafted. It was a very visceral thing, in response to an also very rooted rationality and judgement of fellow shooters by Zumbo.

Look closely at what he said gentlemen... look at his reply. The statement was from the heart alright, the reply was quite thought out. And he harbors no grudges .... gee whiz... Zumbo... that is awfully decent of you.. I don't hold a grudge against you either... But I don't want you back. I don't want you near my children nor especially my grandchildren. You sir... are a pervert of another kind.

First Amendment. Yes. But the First Amendment leaves you opportunity for consequence doesn't it. It gives our enemies the means to take the now written words of others and cast them against us. Zumbo did not say he felt that AR-15's, semi-automatic rifles had no place in HIS gun closet... he said that they had no place, essentially, in the hands of ANY law abiding citizen, for these were TERRORIST guns.

Don't lose sight. Zumbo's remarks are a plague. Treat them as such.


Aloha... :cool:

[fabsroman]

Like I said, I won't be supporting Zumbo or Leatherman any time soon. I am seriously debating a donation to the NRA too, but my wife might kill me with all the money I recently spent. Simply put, unless war and crime end tomorrow, there will always be a need for firearms. I think this was previously mentioned in this thread or elsewhere on this board. We have to remember that the 2nd amendment is war/protection of the US driven. It is not hunting driven. So, what better weapons to establish a militia with than AR-15 and AR-10's. Some BMG-50's would be nice too. Heck, a couple of SAW's wouldn't be bad either. If not during my lifetime, I am pretty sure the US will be in a really heated war some time in the next century. I am betting it will be against China once China needs more resources, but who knows. The crazy thing is that this next war might even be partially fought on American soil.

People, Democrats specifically, do not realize that war is inevitable, just as crime and greed, and I think the former two are furthered by the latter.

[Andy L]

Fabs, I thought you were joking. Now you just plain ass make me sick. If Hillary promises, you would be for handing over all guns.

Your not one of us. Your weak.


I have nothing further to say, but I used to give your posts alot of weight. They just got alot lighter, FWIW.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by Andy L
Fabs, I thought you were joking. Now you just plain ass make me sick. If Hillary promises, you would be for handing over all guns.

Your not one of us. Your weak.


I have nothing further to say, but I used to give your posts alot of weight. They just got alot lighter, FWIW.

Andy,

I respectfully recommend that you slowly and carefully re-read Mr. Roman's posts while at the same time keeping in mind the definitions of "hypothetically speaking" and "sarcasm".

[fabsroman]

Andy,

That is fine with me. I don't need you to be a fan of mine, and have bumped heads with you on several other issues too. If you think I am weak, that is your opinion.

By the way, if we want to split hairs, it is "You're weak" and not "Your weak." That is one of my pet peeves on these boards, but I try to ignore it as much as possible. Funny thing is that I mentioned it last night on a cycling chat board after some grammar police were giving a guy a hard time about using the word bars where bar was appropriate.

If you cannot understand my point, then you either are not taking the time to read thoroughly, your reading comprehension is terrible, or you just cannot understand what I am trying to say. However, if I'm weak according to your standards, then I can fling poo too and call you an idiot, maybe even a moron, by my standards. That is another word I see used incorrectly way too many times on boards. People continue to use moreon.

Fling away my man, because I can fling back too.

[scalerman]

Fabs please continue to share your opinions with us here. As a matter of fact everybody please continue to share your opinions here. There are alot of people in my country and yours who died so that we could express our opinions freely.

Mr. Zumbo is learning a lesson that we should all take to heart. Along with every right there goes an equal (if not more weighty) responsibility to exercise that right in an appropriate manner. He has the right to that opinion, however he must, and is, take responsibility for expressing it.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

[skeeter@ccia.com]

If Hillary gets elected, we might all have a problem here and will be on the same page for sure. Fabs, I would have to say telling anyone (other than hunting buddies) about your brother owning an AR-15 was not a good idea. You just never know who is listening. Out of sight, out of mind.
As far as getting dusted here on HC, pick yourself up and dust yorself off.... Seems like everyone gets a turn in the barrell now and then. Once I had a relative on the wife's side thank me for taking some of the pressure off him. Said at least he isn't the only black sheep in the family. I just said YW. Tks to you. Seems some only see what they look for in a person. If they think you post sarcastic remarks, this is what they will see and take what you say in that order. We know we all here on HC stand behind the same door when it comes to the second and are all tired of the Brady bunch, Zumbo, Hillary, Kennedy bunches but can have a voice through the NRA. Now a membership there as a gift to your brother would be nice. Might get him started. Worked for me in the past. They all still belong.
I am on the board of a local sportsmens club that has over 600 senior members plus their wives along with about a hundred or so jr members and know it is hard to please everyone all the time. I have found out though the ones with the biggest mouth, the ones that refuse to follow the rules and are never happy with the way things go esp when not their way are also the ones that never show up at meetings or lend a hand doing anything constructive for the place. I just remind them they don't have to belong if it is that big a PIA to them. I love reading HC posts. We here sure can cover lots of topics, get many diff opinions and then can sort it all out in the end. As for me, going ice fishing in the morning, make a shore lunch for the bunch then sight in my 7mag I just put a scope on. Getting ready for my spring bear hunt in NB Canada with the son-in-law. One for lil Red....yeeee ha..

[Dom]

Ya know, the vast majority of folks here on HC are much more than the average outdoorsman, hunter, shooter, etc. You see how hard it is even for this specific interest group to all be on the same sheet of music.

I see it exactly the same way when it comes to supporting the NRA. I'm not a spokesman or nothin' else for that matter, but look at it this way. Zumbo took a hard fall because he didn't have no need for the AR's, etc. Hey, I don't shoot a straight bow, so if there's some law comes along to ban them, no sweat off my back. Come to think of it, same for the ARs, Knight MZ, or A5. Big deal, I don't use or need them?

All I'm trying to say is let's show a little more uniformity and not be so critical if someone has a slightly different view. I know this is an emotional issue for a lot of us, take five.

P.S. Skeeter, Waidmannsheil on your Spring Bear Hunt!! Sounds like a plan.

[fabsroman]

Skeeter,

I guess I just do not worry too much about owning an AR or letting people know that I plan on buying two, so I don't worry if people know that my brother owns one. At the end of the day, even if a law gets passed where AR's are illegal in MD, there will be a grandfather clause whereby you are required to register them with the Department of Public Safety, so the state will know who owns them. I think it is terrible, but if I happen to own a couple by that time I will be sure to register them. For most people, not registering them and getting caught with them would result in a slap on the wrist and the confiscation of the rifle(s). For me, I would be in a whole different world of hurt. I would have to report the guilty verdict to the Board of Accountancy and the Maryland & DC bars, and then I would probably have to go through a review before they renew my licenses to practice accountancy and law. You should have seen what I had to go through before taking the bar exam because I paid a fine for hunting migratory birds over bait, which if I had known better at the time, I could have just gone to Court, asked for probation before judgment, and avoided the entire guilty finding. What a mess.

If this bill gets passed, the big thing will be getting caught committing a crime with one of these "assault weapons" because there is a mandatory 5 year sentence. Honestly, I think that is the only part of the law that makes any sense. People should be able to own any gun they want, but if they commit a crime with one, there should be stiff sentences, and I mean for all guns.

[Skyline]

What is clearly being demonstrated here in the posts, is the reason the anti-firearms groups are winning the battle. Slowly but surely they are cornering the firearms groups by using a shotgun approach. They are banking on the fact that people will splinter and try to save their own ass.......or interest group.

Lead bans, international small arms initiatives, domestic ammunition restrictions, assault weapons, terrorist weapons, Saturday night specials, sniper rifles...............one well thought out and very negative cliche after another, national and international bills, symposiums and agreements. Make no mistake, they are winning the war.

Now I know there are a bunch of you rearing up and getting ready to say, hah!!!.......you are from Canada and look what you bunch of wimps let your government ram down your throats. The fact is our firearms communities lobbied long and hard, but it did not save us. Firearms owners here continue to fight and we have made some small gains, but they are the gains that in the great scheme of things are kinda like throwing the dog a bone. It makes us feel good, but really isn't any kind of decisive victory and the overall picture is still a slow downward spiral into the anti-firearms pit.

Remember first that we did not have the 2nd Ammendment to wave like a flag, that RIGHT is not enshrined here, nor is it in most countries in the world. That alone will not save you now and from a foreignors perspective it has allowed most of your shooting population to lull itself into complacency, feeling safe in the knowledge that the right is enshrined in your constitution.

Complacency is why only a very small percentage of the US shooting population actually belongs to the NRA.......believe me I am not picking on you, it is the same everywhere. We are all being systematically chipped away at and they are winning. Slowly but surely.

Unfortunately the campaign for small-arms control and disarmament is a global one. They are attacking from all sides and they are relatively sure of victory in the long haul because the population base keeps growing and is predominantly urban and the firearms users are steadily becoming a smaller and smaller percentage of the overall population.

Jim Zumbo's recent comments, which have been flogged to death, should be a wake up call for all shooters and hunters. When an internationally recognized hunting/firearms writer, who grew up with the 2nd Ammendment rights, could actually make those comments on the internet, we are collectively in serious trouble. It is an indication of where the fight is at and it ain't pretty..........

[Lilred]

First off...they took the original article off of outdoor life website...so I aint git to read it...anybody got another link?

Secondly...Fabs...
By the way, if we want to split hairs, it is "You're weak" and not "Your weak." That is one of my pet peeves on these boards, but I try to ignore it as much as possible.

You must really be madder than a wet hen at me cause you know I'm the furtherst thing from grammatically correct. :p
Ya'll 2 smack lips at each other & make up. Both of ya'll are good peoples and have alot of respect from everyone here on the board...and 2 respectful fellas mad at each other makes the smart-arsh troublemakers like myself look good. We caint go havin that. ;)
Ya'll want me to go kick Zumbo's arsh? I'll represent the Hunt Chat community with pride and honor. I dont hit NO man below the belt:D

[hnter]

I've met and talked to him a few times, the last years ago when I was outfitting prariedog & coyote hunters. He asked for a free hunt for himself and 5 or 6 friends, I not only said no but "He** no"! He didn't show me much then and hasn't since. In fact Zumbo's a source of great amusment here in WY. He once gave a seminar on Elk calling at the G&F's annual EXPO. It was a total joke and most left it quickly. I think he needs to stick to selling his cookbook, it'll cause less damage.

That's my story and ima stickin to it! ;)

PS: I agree with Skyline.

[skeet]

I'll see if I can't get a copy of what he said and send it to ya. Yeah, you guys have ta cool off and let things go.

Reds I can give ya Zumbo's address and his phone number and I'll even give ya a place to stay...on one condition. Can I come see ya do a l'ilred to him?? When I met him last year he WAS a bit pompous. Bet ya can take that outta his eeerrr ahhhh head!:D :D

[Skinny Shooter]

Here is his website: http://www.jimzumbo.com/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/23/AR2007022301709.html
'Terrorist' Remark Puts Outdoorsman's Career in Jeopardy
Zumbo's Criticism of Hunters Who Use Assault Rifles Brings Unforgiving Response From U.S. Gun Culture
By Blaine Harden
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, February 24, 2007; A03



SEATTLE -- Modern hunters rarely become more famous than Jim Zumbo. A mustachioed, barrel-chested outdoors entrepreneur who lives in a log cabin near Yellowstone National Park, he has spent much of his life writing for prominent outdoors magazines, delivering lectures across the country and starring in cable TV shows about big-game hunting in the West.

Zumbo's fame, however, has turned to black-bordered infamy within America's gun culture -- and his multimedia success has come undone. It all happened in the past week, after he publicly criticized the use of military-style assault rifles by hunters, especially those gunning for prairie dogs.

"Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity," Zumbo wrote in his blog on the Outdoor Life Web site. The Feb. 16 posting has since been taken down. "As hunters, we don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them. . . . I'll go so far as to call them 'terrorist' rifles."

The reaction -- from tens of thousands of owners of assault rifles across the country, from media and manufacturers rooted in the gun business, and from the National Rifle Association -- has been swift, severe and unforgiving. Despite a profuse public apology and a vow to go hunting soon with an assault weapon, Zumbo's career appears to be over.

His top-rated weekly TV program on the Outdoor Channel, his longtime career with Outdoor Life magazine and his corporate ties to the biggest names in gunmaking, including Remington Arms Co., have been terminated or are on the ropes.

The NRA on Thursday pointed to the collapse of Zumbo's career as an example of what can happen to anyone, including a "fellow gun owner," who challenges the right of Americans to own or hunt with assault-style firearms.

From his home near Cody, Wyo., Zumbo declined repeated telephone requests for comment. He is a 40-year NRA member and has appeared with NRA officials in 70 cities, according to his Web site.

In announcing that it was suspending its professional ties with Zumbo, the NRA -- a well-financed gun lobby that for decades has fought attempts to regulate assault weapons -- noted that the new Congress should pay careful attention to the outdoors writer's fate.

"Our folks fully understand that their rights are at stake," the NRA statement said. It warned that the "grassroots" passion that brought down Zumbo shows that millions of people would "resist with an immense singular political will any attempts to create a new ban on semi-automatic firearms."

Some outdoors writers drew a different lesson from Zumbo's horrible week.

"This shows the zealousness of gun owners to the point of actual foolishness," said Pat Wray, a freelance outdoors writer in Corvallis, Ore., and author of "A Chukar Hunter's Companion."

Wray said that what happened to Zumbo is a case study in how the NRA has trained members to attack their perceived enemies without mercy.

"For so many years, Zumbo has been a voice for these people -- for hunting and for guns -- and they just turned on him in an instant," Wray said. "He apologized all over himself, and it didn't do any good."

Zumbo's fall highlights a fundamental concern of the NRA and many champions of military-style firearms, according to people who follow the organization closely. They do not want American gun owners to make a distinction between assault weapons and traditional hunting guns such as shotguns and rifles. If they did, a rift could emerge between hunters, who tend to have the most money for political contributions to gun rights causes, and assault-weapon owners, who tend to have lots of passion but less cash.

The NRA appeared to be saying as much in its statement Thursday, when it emphasized that the Zumbo affair shows there is "no chance" that a "divide and conquer propaganda strategy" could ever succeed.

"Jim Zumbo Outdoors" was not broadcast as scheduled last week on the Outdoor Channel and will not air next week, said Mike Hiles, a spokesman for the channel. He said sponsors have requested that they be removed from the program. The show "will be in hiatus for an undetermined period of time," he said.

Zumbo's long career at Outdoor Life, which is owned by Time Inc., also came to a sudden end in the past week. Zumbo was hunting editor of the magazine, which is the nation's second-largest outdoors publication. He wrote his first story for Outdoor Life in 1962.

The magazine's editor in chief, Todd W. Smith, said that Zumbo submitted his resignation after hearing of the large number of readers (about 6,000, at last count) who had sent e-mails demanding his dismissal. Smith dismissed as "conjecture" a question about whether Zumbo would have been fired had he not resigned.

"Jim is a good guy, and I feel bad about this unfortunate situation," Smith said. "We are living in very delicate times. For someone to call these firearms 'terrorist' rifles, that is a flash-point word. You are painting a bunch of enthusiasts with the word. They don't like being called terrorists."

When he wrote his now-notorious blog entry, Zumbo was on a coyote hunt in Wyoming sponsored by Remington, a detail he noted in the entry.

That mention -- as it bounced around in recent days among a number of assault-weapon Web sites -- triggered a call for a boycott of Remington products.

That prompted Remington to issue a news release, saying that it has "severed all sponsorship ties with Mr. Zumbo effective immediately."

Remington chief executive Tommy Millner issued a personal appeal to gun owners who might be thinking about boycotting the company's products: "Rest assured that Remington not only does not support [Zumbo's] view, we totally disagree," Millner said. "I have no explanation for his perspective. I proudly own AR's and support everyone's right to do so!"

Zumbo, in his public apology, said that when he wrote the blog entry that criticized assault rifles, he was at the end of a long day's hunt.

"I was tired and exhausted," he wrote, "and I should have gone to bed early."


http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/02/zumbomania_davi.html
http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/2007/02/zumbomania_part.html

[Tennessee Elkman]

This past weekend at the RMEF Elk Camp apparently after stepping down from his 2 year term on the Board od Directors, (not related to his story, his term was simply over) he got back on a plane and flew home. Can't say that I blame him as he would have been right in the middle of a fire storm with some of those guys.

[M.T. Pockets]

I don't want to side track this thread, or beat it up any more, but does anyone else here have a hard time figuring out Petzal over at F&S ??

I've heard him trip over his own words more than once while running back & forth over other issues.

I quit reading F&S a few years back when he couldn't answer a question without doing a poor Don Rickles imitation and insult the writer. I very seldom read any of the outdoor magazines anymore.

Where have you gone Gene Hill.......

[Lilred]

well i certainly dont wanna best a dead horse here...and i know very little about ar's or whatever the correct terms are fer em.
From what I've read in this thread...and I'm probaly missin somethin...but I'm assumin that Zumbo meant he didnt see no need for a fully automatic rifle in the woods?? or maybe he was picking on just the ar15's...the original blog I caint seem to find.

Anyway...Im uneducated about the subject so i caint argue nothin bout it..BUT (men hate it when women throw them buts in there ;) ) as long as it is legal then it is a matter of preference what you hunt with. Any retard who prefers to hunt with a fully automatic weapon needs his head examined aside from the fact that it's illegal.
I think what Zumbo did was scratch a surface and he didnt explain himself very well..like I do alot. (No, i aint forgot that other thread where somebody called me a name...i figgered I'd better behave and not reply at all...cause it would NOT be a good thing if i did...)
I think he was probaly misunderstood and he did a poor job of explaining himself. I personally find it scheitty that he gave so many of his years and time and money to the huntin community and everybody just schiet on him. You can be mad at him or whatever...but bein 2 cents short of sendin the poor bashturd into exile is too much. Not to mention that if you hang around with a gang of bank robbers, they'll more than likely think you are one too. That is the misfortune of the ar15's. It's a uneducated assumption that classifies things together out of sheer ignorance.
I can argue that same fact about Southerners. We are all labeled as haters of African- Americans. It is an uneducated guess.

Zumbo assumed that other people in this country also make that same uneducated guess that if you see somebody walkin in the woods with an ar-15 you should duck for cover. AND THEY DO!
So did Zumbo. People should be more educated on those weapons...inlcudin myself.
Apparently God don't make men with brass b**ls anymore.

[skeet]

What Zumbo said in essence was that the government should not allow AR-15's to be used for any kind of hunting. Not full autos. He also said that they were just terrorist rifles and we really had no need for them. He likened everyone who had an AR15 to be as a terrorist. Heck, kiddo. An AR 15 is no different than any other semi auto shotgun or rifle..even the little 22 semiautos. There is no difference other than what they look like. I've had a few full auto firearms(I don't call anything firearm related as a WEAPON). A weapon is something that someone is going to USE against another person. It could be a bow..or a knife..or a gun...or even a rock. Weapon is onea them key words that the antis alway use. Why should we? You know I ain't what is known as politically correct. Just cause I consider myself to be a southerner..don't mean I belong to the KKK. That is what Zumbo more or less did. He considered all people that were AR15 owners and shooters to be as a terrorist. In this age when every dogooder in the country seems to know better than we do and thinks they should be our conscience..they want to control us cause we don't know as much as they seem to. You of all people should know that the 2nd amendment ain't about huntin. The Constitution allowed as it was originally written for the states to be their own conscience and were able to leave the Union if they saw fit. That is what the Civil War was really about. So the constitution was changed. We really can't let 'em change the 2nd amendment to a right to hunt. And Zumbo was an ignoramus that thought he was above gettin knocked down for his stupid comments.

[Darkwolf]

:rolleyes:

Came late to the discussion, but here's my 2 cents...

Firstly, I feel bad that Zumbo made such a blatent comment. I did enjoy reading his columns and articles over the years, especially about elk hunting. Again, the free speech aspect comes up, but as many have pointed out, it's not a protection from people's reactions, just from the government locking you up for critisizing it...

Ah, but like some comments made by Mr. Ruger before his passing, it seems that one's own preference for a type of equipment got expanded into a belief about what other people should be allowed to use... The longbow/compoundbow/crossbow debate and the fracas involving dogs and deer hunting also come to mind.

I'm dissapointed he didn't see the inherent problem about publishing such comments, or how people in the shooting community would react.

Or especially the fact that his own preferred equipment, a bolt-action scope-sighted high-power rifle is "A Sniper Rifle" and the weapon of a political assassin in the minds of the same people who oppose ownership of so-called "assault rifles". JFK, Martin Luther King, and the Texas Tower Sniper are all still vivid images in the minds of the gun-control crowd and the TV watchers they appeal to... not to mention the Beltway Sniper...

Divide and conquer was a very effective strategy that let Julius Ceasar conquer the known world of his time. I'm surprised that Jim Zumbo didn't see that aspect of it as well.


:(

[Riposte1]

Email and brief written replies, even with emoticons, are a poor form of communication so please do not take this as disagreement or criticism but just perspective.

Nearly all my firearms are indeed weapons. I dont mince words, some are for shooting people and some for harvesting game. Some, very few, are for simple recreation (if hunting is a recreation for you that is fine but it is much more than that to me).

The latter two classes fall into the general class of "sporting goods", the former, are "arms" - that's what arms are; weapons, most specifically military weapons (see Miller Vs US). That is why there is a restriction on the governments right to restrict them in the Bill of Rights.

I suppose someone could make the difficult connect between my right to own sporting goods in some other ammendments and I would certainly support that, but I would not think it would win out in today's liberal courts.

So, if I am going to protect my rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happines... I am going to need weapons. Fortunately some wise old men in powdered wigs saw that coming.

Hope that does not sound like too much of a rant.

Best regards,

Riposte

[Lilred]

Skeet...thank you honey...that cleared up alot.

I reckon I feel more for him than most because I share the same label as the ar-15. His entire life is gone in less than a week. What a shame.
Dont misunderstand me...I will always have my guns. There is WAY to many generations of fightin blood in my body not to whoop anybody who attempts to take my guns. In fact, I'd whoop em so bad their mama wouldnt recognize em them next time she saw em.
But...bein the uneducated person that I am...I always assumed (that there is a dangerous word) that the ar-15 was an assault rifle...used fer assaultin people or things. But that's just me. While I DO understand that they aint no difference than any other rifle, just the looks...they were named...assault rifles. So there the bad rap started. Just like the word Confederate.

Both of those are now "engrained" bad words so to speak....and Zumbo sure aint help that cause nary a bit. Apparently I aint helpin the "Confederate" cause none either cause I am apologizin fer slavery, renaming the museum of the confederacy in richmond AND they are also movin it to God knows where.

Yep...we're alllllll over it.
:D

[skeet]

Riposte I can understand the perspective you use for weapons. But perspective is exactly what I try to avoid by not using the word. When people hear the word weapon they immediately have visions of dire actions from other people. I sure am not too politically correct. I just try to let folks know that the tools I use for my fun and even income (in the past) are not intended to be used for weapons. If they are used for weapons it is as a last resort. Don't want or need to shoot anyone unless absolutely necessary. We have to work in ways to let the undecided know that the gun owners in this country are not a threat to their safety...which is exactly what the Brady bunch keep telling everyone...that we are a threat to them. You and I ...both know better. But we still have to convince the undecided! That is why I don't use the word...and cringe when I hear it in public...other than us shooters:D :D

[skeet]

Darlin
Whatever you might say about yourself... uneducated... is one thing I know you are not. We are all uneducated in certain ways. Sometimes we have our minds made up and nothing anyone can do will change it..even if we are wrong. The thing that hurts us is letting ourselves believe certain things just because someone else says so. The assault gun thing. Heck a Brown Bess Musket was an assault weapon at one time as was a Springfield musket and an 03 Springfield. The words assault weapon were probably coined by one of the Brady bunch for all I know. But they sure spout that phrase all the time now. Makin us believe they are evil just because of what they are called or because they say so.
Just because there are a bunch of apologists in the world today apologising for the Civil war or slavery or whatever doesn't make what is happening right. Even people who should know better want to say the civil war was all about slavery. I never owned a slave...and neither did my father. Why should I apologize for slavery or pay reparations to people just because they want me too. Get over it and get on with life. Don't forget ...but get over it is what I say. I ain't preachin to you cause I think you feel this way too. Just ranting I guess....but not at you!
I feel bad for Zumbo in some respects...but I think he would have to understand the fact that we have to pay for our actions or words if we are wrong..and get kudos for the same things if we are right. He just stepped on his own tongue....or whatever!! and now the fiddler wants to be paid!!

[Skinny Shooter]

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/long_guns/phar_022707/

Sporting ARs
Stoner's brilliant battle design is following tradition by heading into the woods.
By Dick Metcalf

("The following article was prepared for press prior to the current controversy concerning AR rifles used in hunting, and will appear in the May/June issue of Petersen's Hunting.")

Sporterized military guns have always found their way into the hunting fields--and always with resistance from traditionalists.

Virtually every type of centerfire sporting rifle in existence started off as a military weapon. The classic lever-action deer gun, long the most popular type of hunting rifle in America, began as the Henry Rifle of the Civil War era, designed to bring rapid fire against the enemy. The lever-action was succeeded in universal popularity by the bolt-action--the standard hunting rifle of today--which we owe to Paul Mauser's classic battle-rifle design.

Now another rifle of military origin is moving rapidly into prominence in the hunting and sport shooting world: the AR15 .223 and AR10 .308. And, like its predecessors, the AR platform is meeting resistance, even outright opposition, from many hunters who are personally wedded to earlier gun designs. No surprise there; when the lever action was first used for hunting, traditionalists, whose idea of a "real" hunting gun was a single-shot muzzleloader, distained the need for a repeat-fire tool.

First-generation bolt-action military surplus rifles were also disparaged by many sportsmen as "inappropriate" for hunting. But the AR design's proven capability has already made it the rifle of choice for top-level civilian high-power rifle competition. It is also increasingly the rifle of choice for serious long-range varmint and predator shooters, and it's appearing in increasing numbers in the big-game hunting arena, as well.



It should. ARs are not all just .223 caliber. In fact, most people are probably not aware that the AR design originated as a .308 (7.62mm), not as a .223 (5.56mm).

To get your AR to match the accuracy of the best hunting rifles, swap out its barrel for a match-grade version.

Technically speaking, it makes all the sense in the world that proven military rifle designs should be inherently appropriate for hunting use. All successful military rifles are specifically designed for rugged, reliable function and durability under extreme conditions, which translates automatically into use under even the most extreme field-hunting use. They're also designed for reasonable weight, portability and ease of fast handling by people who may be carrying other heavy gear and wearing bulky clothing. They have an inherent capability for follow-up shots, and they must be deadly accurate against targets of the same basic dimensions and at the same distances typically encountered by hunters.

The AR in particular is a superb hunting design, due primarily to its lightweight synthetic and corrosion-resistant alloy construction. And, it's surprisingly accurate, due primarily to the fact it's an "assembled" gun rather than a "fitted" gun. Its major components essentially snap together. Unlike a traditional bolt-action rifle, which generally requires close-tolerance, hand-work receiver/barrel mating and precise bedding into the stock for maximum accuracy and consistency, a hunting-grade (or even competition-grade) AR can readily be assembled from modular components literally on a kitchen table, by anybody with a modicum of ability to use relatively simple hand tools. Likewise, a service-grade "standard" AR15 can readily be brought up to minute-of-angle performance by selective replacement of key modular elements with match-grade parts. And, once tuned, an AR stays that way, due to the fact that its entirely nonorganic components (nonwood) are not susceptible to environmental distortion (warpage or swelling). All an AR really needs is a quality barrel to shoot as well as the best hunting rifle you can buy.

Hunting versions of the AR design, in a wide variety of chamberings, are currently offered by several manufacturers. One of the early leaders in AR hunting rifle and sport configurations has been ArmaLite, which offers both lightweight and heavy-barrel configurations in .223 (M-12A series) for long-range varmint and predator hunting, .308-chambered versions (AR-10 series) for deer hunting and competition and even a super-accurate .300 Remington Short-Action Ultra Mag (AR-10T Ultra), which is as good an elk, moose or general heavy game chambering as you can get.

MIX & MATCH
Because of its modular design, an AR is very easy to "sporterize" at your home workbench. The range of available quick-install AR accessories is nearly infinite, including a wide variety of precision-adjustable metallic sights, a diversity of optical sight-mount options, many different designs of adjustable or fixed buttstocks and forends (handguards), and attachments for varied styles of carrying and/or shooting slings and bipods for long-range precision shooting. A growing number of AR users are also taking advantage of the basic design to have different upper receivers in different chamberings and/or barrel lengths/weights made to attach to the same lower receiver (legally the serial-numbered actual "firearm"), making an AR nearly as versatile as a T/C Encore.

Other manufacturers offer complete AR rifles and AR upper receivers chambered for such excellent hunting cartridges as the 6.8mm Remington SPC, up to big-bore dangerous-game chamberings such as the .458 SOCOM or .500 Beowulf.

ARs are legal for hunting anywhere any other semiauto centerfire hunting rifle (such as a Browning BAR or Remington 742 or 7400) is legal--except in states that may have passed laws banning specific models and configurations of semiautomatics by calling them "assault rifles."

As for the "black rifle" issue...well, I like wood as much as the next guy, but the most popular hunting rifles in America these days, of any type, all have black or gray synthetic stocks, dull matte surface treatments or camo finishes, anyway. Black or camo bolt-action rifles, or black or camo ARs--what's the difference? If hunting with a "black gun" bothers you, don't. If you oppose others using a hunting tool simply because it doesn't "look right," you're standing on the same political platform as the California state legislature. Hunters should not do the antigun, antihunter groups' work for them.

The AR platform is a hunting rifle, and anyone who says differently simply doesn't know history.

[Riposte1]

Lilred;

Just so you will have a clear technical understanding, before the politicians decided they were the experts, Dept of Defense defined "Assault Rifle" as a rifle of intermediate power, capabale of fully automatic fire. As opposed to a Main Battle Rifle which is of "full" power and can be semi-auto or some other sort of repeater (like a Bolt Action).

The term "Assault Weapon" was invented by the gun grabbers in Congress to confuse folks...apparently it worked. It includes both long guns and pistols and the list it includes seems to grow every day.

On another note, I saw a bumper sticker that you might like the other day...it had the "Stars and Bars" and said "Fighting terrorism since 1861" :)

Best regards,
Riposte

[Riposte1]

Skeet;
It is perfectly OK to have a different pespective. You can articulate your position well and that is what counts. Folks have different life experiences.

I am relatively old and more than a little bit tired of sheep. One of the better moments I have had was when 60 Minutes inteviewed my friend Clint Smith on sniping and were hem hawing around the issue when Clint directly said "you know, some people just need to be shot."

No sane, righteous person wants to shoot other people for some thrill or to feel "big". In fact only a psychopath wants to harm folks at all. But if we are to deal with violence which comes our way we have to face the fact that we either have to meet it effectively (and to do that we have to prepare well before hand) or suffer the consequences.

I would highly commend to every person who goes out into the public to read Jeff Snyder's "A Nation of Cowards" essay.

I always liked Jeff Coopers retort to someone who suggest to him "violence begets violence". He said "It is my fervent hope this is true...if someone visits violence on me he will get more than he can stand in return."

I appoligize for my intensity, but this is something I feel intensely. The answer to predatory criminal behavior is not to run, hide or cower...it is to stop it right there on the spot.

Thanks for your patience and understanding.

Best regards,
Riposte

"The will to win is nothing without the will to Prepare."

[Riposte1]

BTW, now that I have contributed to the thread drift, perhaps I can get it back somewhat by noting that in about 20 minutes I am off for an Elk Hunt :)

Unfortunately, it will be with a camera not a gun. Nowhere near as nutritional but it beats watching TV (like I would know, I dont even get TV).

Riposte

[fabsroman]

Riposte,

I love that post of yours. Personally, I think that every sane adult should carry a gun. That way, people will think twice about committing a crime. Can you imagine how much rape would fall if rapists knew that every woman carried a gun. Everybody wants to run and hide from these violent crimes, and it pisses me off. Okay, I am going to stop here before I really get going and spend the rest of my afternoon responding to something we both agree on.

[skeet]

I like that bumper sticker. Ya know I'm kinda old too although not as old as Rocky. But I spent some time in the same theater of, well, fighting as he did. I'm a little tired of the sheeple in this country too. Just try not to get them bleating and running using words that scare them. or ones they don't understand! Nothing to apologize for as I do understand. Read the nation of cowards and agree with most. And the man was right..some folks just deserve killin. Seriously shot just ain't enough for some. And Fabs is a standup guy...even if he is an attorney(that's high brow for lawyer or Calhoon). And ya know...you ain't missin much by not "gettin" TV!:D :D Hope ya "get an elk or two!

[Lilred]

Here's one from the Lilred book of filosofy:

Every human bein needs their arsh kicked at one time or another. Some people needs their arsh kicked more than once. The ones that never learn face natural selection.

As ya'll already know...I'm a firm believer in natural selection lol

[deermeister]

Boy, I leave the state for a week, and all of this happens!

Jim Zumbo screwed up. He apologized. He ruined his own career. He gave the anti's more fuel to run their machine.

I just spent a lot of time reading all of the posts, and I learned a lot. Then it happened. On page four, we started fighting each other. At this point, haven't the anti's won?

I've read all of your posts for years, and have developed respect for you, and have gained a little insight into your beliefs. I don't pretend to understand everything that makes you tick, and I don't try to judge anyone.

Fact: We are all passionate about gun ownership, and we do NOT want that right taken away in any form.

Fact: A high profile individual in the hunting community criticized something that many of us believe in.

Fact: That criticizm(sp?) will more than likely be used against us.

What we do not need to happen is for this issue to divide US, because the conquer part will soon follow.

Fabs, Lil Red, Skeet, et al: I enjoy reading your posts, and I respect where all of you are coming from.

Diversity can make us great, but division will make us weak.

[skeet]

And that sir is exactly why Zumbo lost his livelihood. But he still doesn't get it. He blames the shooting public for taking his livelihood away. He still doesn't understand he did it to himself...when he did to us what he did!!Division among the people that enjoy the freedom of owning and shooting firearms has always been one of our worst problems. The shotgun guys saying well I don't own a pistol so why should I worry...the rifle guys saying well I don't own an "assault rifle" AR 15 so why should I worry?? I do worry. I also wonder what would happen if we all stuck together! Think we could change the face of a nation? Personally I do. After all, the anti's, who are well funded and are sticking together are surely trying...and in the past because of apathy in OUR ranks have made inroads into our Constitutional rights. Heck the laws built into the books now about an automatic 5 yrs for the commission of a crime using a firearm is almost never charged...and if charged traded away in plea deals. That should be the only part of the charges that should never be plead out. Why don't we try to make that the law of the land...No pleas on firearm crime!!

[fabsroman]

I agree about that. The laws for criminals need to be a lot harsher, and I am not just talking about gun crimes. I am talking about all crimes. I have represented a guy over the past 3 years on 5 different occassions, and he continued to get probation after probation, and I almost got him a weekend sentence on his violation of probation for his second DUI, which I hadn't represented him on to begin with. The Judge finally said no way, but it took him 5 minutes of deliberation to come to that conclusion. He sentenced him to a month. Yeah, I felt bad for my client, but I felt good for society in general. My client did 21 of the 30 days because of good behaviour and then told me it was a good vacation from work with cable TV, 3 meals a day, and free time to workout and sleep. Since then, he got his 3rd DUI and if you read the police report it would make you sick. I no longer represent him. Criminals should be required to do hard labor, period, even if it entails digging a hole, filling it back up, and digging it again.

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by fabsroman
The laws for criminals need to be a lot harsher, and I am not just talking about gun crimes. I am talking about all crimes. .........Criminals should be required to do hard labor, period, even if it entails digging a hole, filling it back up, and digging it again.

There will be a vacancy for the post of Attorney General of the United States coming open in less than two years. If that's not your cup of tea, there's always SOCUS, though you'll likely have to wait until someone dies. :D

[fabsroman]

Politics just isn't me. I wouldn't be able to win because I wouldn't be able to hold my tongue about criminals, welfare, illegal immigration, the deficit, and a myriad of other controversial issues. Every politician tries to be somewhere in the middle of all those topics, and I'm just not that guy.

[hnter]

I've been watching this Zumbo excercize in stupidity thing a while, I thought I'd finally chime in on it here.

Zumbo's appology reads like it was wrote by a philladelphia lawyer turned PR man.
As in, gee, I made a mistake.

I said "sorry".

"Kin I come play now?"

"I'll be good".
Or the time proven "I see the light and am "saved"!

I've met Zumbo several times, he never impressed me all that much but he sure as heII does now!

I'm very highly impressed I'm impressed that thinks he could stick his foot that far up his arrss and ....... still think he can get it out without it smellin. :eek:

Kinda like sayin "well I only commited 1 murder" or "only 1 rape" . "I said I was Sorry, golly gee, why do I need ta go to jail?"

Hnter

[skeet]

My sentiments exactly. The Cody paper wrote an editorial excoriating the NRA for shooting Zumbo down and scorning him. Actually accused them of orchestrating the move to have him removed from all the endorsments and advertising. They never got in touch with me. I also told the Cody Paper in a letter to the editor(which I am sure won't be printed) that they didn't need to be an apologist for him. He never really apologized for his statements. Even blamed the people out there for "taking my living away from me". Told the paper that he had to accept responsibility for that and no one else..also that until he actually wrote an apology that was earnest and believeable that he would stay in "Zumbo Limbo" Sheesh, all the liberals want to blame the NRA for everything. even when it ain't so!! And again.."I was tired" after a long day of coyote hunting! In a 60 MPH wind?? C'mon Zumbo! Why is it nobody seems to be able to accept responsibility for their own actions any more??

[hnter]

Long time no hear :>). Hows it goin? :D


I know Zumbo, He's never shown me much.

I don't think the NRA had a heII of a lot ta do bout his demise, I think it was hisself and other tru-progun shooters who ar darned well tired of the purest appeaser BS. I sure as heII am!!!

Zumbo made his bed, let him die in it!!!

Hunter

[skeet]

I have to make an amendment to the last post I had. The Cody paper actually printed what I said. But they still have apologists saying he is entitled to his 1st amendment rights. Well he used 'em...and now the every day Joe is voicing his!! NRA didn't do anything. He has to reap what he has sown!!

[fabsroman]

Nobody wants to take responsibility for anything anymore. Just finished up a 2004 tax return for a client of mine. One of the charitable deductions was a contribution to the democratic national committee for the 2004 Presidential election. This guy had a $400,000 capital gain on a rental property in 2004, and he is complaining because he has to pay $50,000 in taxes. I didn't mention that if the democrats had their way, he would be paying close to $100,000 on that capital gain, but I should have. He also wants socialized health care with the government picking up the tab. I cannot imagine howmuch he would cry when he had to pay taxes for that. If he wasn't suffering from Parkinson's and cancer, I would be pissed.

Zumbo is paying for what he said. Me, I completely avoided political issues with this client, because he still needs to have his 2005 and 2006 returns completed and they are worth close to $2,000 a piece to me. We all need to think before speaking or acting, period, and we need to take responsibility for our actions and apologize when we are wrong, but stand behind what we believe in too.

[rattus58]

Ok den... just drop him a web addy for this site... :)

[hnter]

The NRA had very little to say about Zumbo except for saying they were severing professional contact from him.


Y'all can check it it fer yerseff at www.nra.org

It's in the archives, in the search function box type in zumbo

The NRA was very non confrontational with their news release about Dumbo Zumbo's elitest anti gun screwup.

Hnter

[grayghost]

Thanks for all the posts everyone. I was still in Zimbabwe when this hit the fan. Left 110 degree weather and returned to snow. Spent over two weeks dealing with a sinus infection, chest cold and sore throat. Dam* was I glad to shake that mess! Heard a few rumors of what was going on but this thread brought me up to speed. Due to a backlog of work and the rush to get my clients booked into Africa for this seasons hunts, I failed to keep updated on this thread. I found it harsh at first (actions taken against Mr. Zumbo) but it took reading everyone's posts to better understand why he was in Hell's fire. Truth of the matter is; Once you squeeze the tooth paste out of the tube, how do you get it back in? Not impossible, but it won't be easy. Like Jim Zumbo or not, he was a figure in our sport, hobby or passion. His comments will remain with him for life. No matter how hard he tries, he will have a hard time getting the "tooth paste back into the tube." Personally, I think the man shot himself in the foot. I do not agree with his statement in any form, shape or way. I think his apology is lame, but I am a person who forgives. I believe it was Fabs who posted "But he'll have to earn my respect back." Same here. I won't give it easily, but neither will I let it play a role in dividing our community. I don't care if you want to bow hunt (with any bow type), muzzle load, rifle, pistol or shoot cool looking semi-auto rifles or have a legal permit to own and shoot machine guns. I won't let bickering lead me down the road to "divide and conquer." We all love the shooting sports and hobbies or we wouldn't be communicating on this web site. I hope we can all agree to disagree, but keep our eyes on the same target. Good hunting and shooting, grayghost

[hnter]

While I personally don't care for Zumbo because of personal experiences and exchanges with him, I can understand why some like him.

I don't think this is/was a devide and beat issue. Zumbo made a horrific mistake brought on by an elitest "I know better than you" because of an "I'm the great Zumbo" complex. Having known a few professional outdoor writers (liars) I can even understand that.

It's possible Zumbo can come back. However, if he were a greeny anti gun guy and had screwed them like he did us, they'd never trust him again. .......................................................
They'd turn their backs on him forever.

I guess we're just willing to forgive and forget.

Progun people must be nicer than antigun idjuts.

[grayghost]

Well said hnter. I think you hit the nail on the head: sometimes people get the big head and forget who put them on the top steps to begin with: we the people. As mentioned in this long thread, some of the elitist writers were quick to defend Mr. Zumbo, but I bet they sh*t their pants with worry. I've hunted most of my life. Started as a child. Have been a professional Taxidermist, Hunting Consultant/Booking agent, fresh and saltwater fisherman (pleasure and tournament), hunt with bow, muzzle loader, rifle & pistol, can skin, quarter, de-bone, cut up and package any game animal walking and believe it or not, I'm a pretty good cook. But I'll be the first to admit; I'm an expert at nothing. Maybe Mr. Jim can retire now, enjoy life and write his memoirs. Someone might want to buy a copy...maybe. Good hunting, grayghost