Howcome ?

[Zazu45]

HI guys.

I bought an "Undertaker" coke tube for my Remington 870 Express the other day.
At the same time I got two boxes of Winchester Supremes 3in. mag. shells (STEEL SHOT), one with no2 and the other with BB.
Next I went to shoot a few patterns. As a reference I shot few with Winchester Super double XX 3in mag. 1 7/8 oz with BB.
Weird thing was that the lead BB gave 85 % ,Steel no.2 gave 50 % and steel BB gave 60 % .
Everybody said that steel shot would pettern tighter than lead , what happened ???
My "undertaker" is .700 constriction (model 08675) and the packaging states:"For shot size BB,BBB,& T shot.
My only guess is that I got a "modified equivalent" instead of a full choke equivalent.
Or am I simply using shot that is too small for that constriction since pattern % seems to go up with shot size ?
By the way, how do "T" size shot perform on geese ?
Still it is a shame since I was looking for something to use with 2 and BB.
Anyway any feed back appreciated.

Thanks. Denis

:confused:

[skeet]

ZASU,

The 700 constriction choke you have is about a modified choke constriction. A full would be on the order of a .690 or so. Heck I have some chokes here with a .660 constriction. Lead shot only of course. Chokes are weird things. Every one is different in every gun. The XX loads were really engineered to give great patterns back when you could shoot waterfowl with them. Now with the Turkey shooters being a big thing they keep makin 'em better. Steel shot is a law unto itself also. You have to try to find the best choke with each different type of ammo sometimes..just like rifle shootin. As far as T shot...I used it extensively on waterfowl back in Md. Steel T shot killed geese with authority out to about 65-70 yds...especially using a 10 ga. In the 12 ga maybe not quite as well but still good. I used an improved modified for T in a 12 ga and the 10 ga also. Lead T shot was a real killer(but not really legal) if you had a gun that would shoot it. I messed with the bore of a S&W1000 Auto I got on trade till it shot great patterns with a reload of Lead T I developed. At 40 yds it shot 100% patterns..at 60 yds about 72%. I actually killed more than 1 goose at 90-100 yds. But I shot geese every day.... 250-300 a season. I got kinda good at shootin geese. As an aside on that gun. It wouldn't shoot BB's 2's or 4's worth a hoot(hardly ever found anything that shot 4's well). But with Lead T and Lead 5's it shot 100% at 40 yds. Go figure?! You'll have to keep lookin for another choke that you can use..and keep on trying patterns. BTW static patterns(still targets) won't show you much for flying birds..but will work really well for turkey shootin!

[fabsroman]

T steel shot is the best steel shot you can use on geese. I try to use T steel shot when I have to use steel shot on geese, but it isn't always available where I am and I only use steel shot when I do not have time to load Hevi-Shot.

[Zazu45]

Another weird thing I noticed. I know that you can't compare a wood board with a goose, but I noticed that shot of the same size gave the same penetration between lead and steel.
I'm sure it is related to the steel shot hardness but still I was expecting less penetration from steel due to their lighter weight.

Fabsroman, what kind of patterns do you get with the "T"shot and what kind of choke do you use.
"BBB"and/or "T" shot will probably be my next experiment in the "Undertaker"since it seems to favor bigger shot.
A good patterning heavy-duty combo is always handy to have around even if I should not need it too often.

About the static patterning thing, I know what you mean Skeet,
but a load that patterns good on paper is not always good in the field on moving targets. But a load that patterns poorly on paper, very rarely does good in the field.
Paper either for shotguns or rifles is always a good starting point even if does not tell the whole story.

[skeet]

Fabs is right about the Steel T being the best size to use on Geese. When guiding I mostly used the larger sizes. My job after I got the geese in range was to make sure any birds hit?crippled did not get away. Quite often they were getting out there a ways. That is why I used a 10 ga a fair amount. It threw the large shot better and more of 'em. Never modified the 10 ga bore much. Lengthened the forcing cone some and on a couple of the Ithaca 10's I did a Two step choke. Couldn't do that on the Remington 10 as the choke was too short..but I did get a couple of longer choke tubes I did a little work on for the Remmy. One I got shooting really good with BBB size. It was almost as good as T shot. Surprisingly... That choke shot good patterns out to about 60 yds then just seemed to give up the ghost. Never saw that happen with lead shot. The steel really sucks. That is why I use Hevi or Bismuth. I know it is expensive, as does Fabs, but we both agree Hevi shot is as good as or better than lead. Way way way better than steel. I also observed some things about steel that many don't. It really gets blown badly by the wind. I shot some patterns in a 30-40 MPH wind with BBB and it blew more than 2 ft from point of aim at 40 yds. In the gusts as much as 3 1/2 ft and the patterns really degraded badly too. Shooting steel in the wind is an almost futile exercise...unless shooting directly downwind. Steel also seems to be really inconsistent in patterns...so don't always believe what your eyes tell ya. If you can use lead for the turkeys. Or if not that then get some Hevi or one of the new loads using the same material from Federal or Winchester. Supposed to be better than Hevi-shot

[fabsroman]

Zazu,

I use a Patternmaster choke tube nowadays, but I haven't actually patterned that tube with T's. I patterned it with #4 Hevi and #2 steel and the Hevi shot a lot tighter than the steel. I was shooting at an 8 1/2" x 11" piece of paper from 30 yards and almost every pellet from the Hevi was on the paper and the middle was toast, but the steel was all over the place and I really doubt that every pellet was on the paper because there were a lot on the fringe. Personally, I prefer Hevi #2 for geese and Hevi #B for the really long shots. My best patterns with steel were out of the standard modified choke that came with the Benelli SBE.

If I can, I'll try to pattern some T shot for you out of the Patternmaster. Thing is, I don't normally pattern my guns unless I leave the field or range scratching my head wondering why I missed a shot. That is what lead to the patterning of the #2 steel. I missed or wounded three ducks one morning that I definitely thought I should have killed, so I patterned the Patternmaster.

Sometimes, I wonder if all this choke tube stuff isn't just another way to remove money from our pockets. Undertaker this. Patternmaster that. Yeah, I can somewhat see the reason for extended choke tubes (i.e., force applied to the pellets over a longer distance), but does it really matter on hard shot like steel and Hevi?

[skeet]

Fabs I can tell you that without a doubt longer chokes can make a big difference on patterns...if they are done right. A lot of them on the market are exactly what you said... A way to remove money from our pockets. They are mass produced you know...and every bbl is different inside. every one! One reason I like Briley. If ya send a bbl to them to be choked..they choke the bbl to fit the bore. I have a 12 ga 11-87 bbl that is .737 in the bore. Even a skeet choke is kinda tight. A skeet choke for a normal .729 bore(nominal 12 ga) has about .003-.004 constriction. In this bbl the constriction is.011. Just a little tighter than Improved cylinder. I got a choke from Briley and told them bore diameter and they sent me a skeet choke for that bbl. Measures about .0045...and boy does it shoot patterns. 2nd best I've ever shot. The best patterns I ever got was with a Baker Big Bore bbl with Federal paper light 9's. If I held her right it smoked targets from any station on the field. Like an idiot I sold that gun.

I also have an 1100 Standard weight 20 ga D grade bbl that was sent to Briley to be choked. With the skeet choke in it will crush targets with authority from anywhere on the skeet field

[tjwatty]

Skeet can probably correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the Undertaker tube is designed for steel shot, therefore I would "assume" that it would be designed to grab the wad thus giving the steel a better chance to deploy. The wad in the lead version might not slow at the same rate giving a tighter pattern.
Just my 2 pennies worth.

[skeet]

TJ I really don't know if that choke is made for steel. If it is a waterfowl choke then yes it is. Chokes and patterns are really weird things. It's kinda like shooting at a crippled duck on the water.. You can have a choke that shoots really tight patterns...but to kill the duck you have to shoot him in the head. On the water ya have to shoot over top of him to do it right. Patterns really act strange in different environs...Now everybody shoots right at a turkey's head...what makes the big difference?? Try it some time. You'll see I am right. I really wonder about all of this stuff for turkeys now. Everything is high tech. How in the H did we ever bag a turkey? Or deer hunting! How did I ever get a deer without all that camo and scent loc stuff..and high tech bullets and deer scent and deer calls etc etc etc! Actually most of the items people think they need nowdays is really unnecessary. I feel the same way about chokes. Get a good choke for any hunting. But if ya do it right you won't have to worry about having 87 pellets on the turkey's head to kill him. 4 or 5 will usually do it. The main thing is with any gun load or choke on turkeys is to KNOW where it shoots!..and do it under 40 yds..preferably under 30 yds. That is the hunting part of it. Gettin 'em right in there in your lap!! Same way with waterfowl. I like to be able to read the numbers on their leg bands!! And I know you like them ducks the same way, TJ!!

[Zazu45]

Yes the choke is desinged for steel shot.
Problem is it does not want to pattern with smaller shot.
50% with no2 , 60% with BB , that make for pretty sparse patterns wich even a goose could fly thru.
I still have to try "BBB" and "T" shot thru it, who knows, might just work.

By the way, the other day I had time to kill so I took out my caliper and made some measurements.

Undertaker: bore=0.740 Muzzle=0.700

Remington factory modified: bore=0.735 Muzzle=0.710

Seems the Undertaker is playing the Browning "back bored"trick.
Also, compared to the Remington, the Undertaker would be very clos to a "full choke". Weird, no ?

Any ideas ?


Denis.:rolleyes:

[skeet]

Zazu...the bore of the bbl can't be two different sizes. Now if you are measuring the end of the choke where the shot enters and exits I understand the measurements. You will have to have a bore gauge to measure the size of the bore.. The reason that the part of the choke that the shot enters is larger is so that the choke won't be blown out of the bbl when the shot hits. They are making that larger so they can cover their butt on fitting any gun. It really has nothing to do with how it chokes the shot. Also most chokes have the choked area inside the choke a little way. Briley does it with a parallel section in the choke....in the extended chokes usually about an inch in length. And again...chokes don't always work the way they are designed to do. Every shotgun and choke is a law unto itself. That steel undertaker choke. Was it designed for the larger steel or what? They are usually designated on the package.

[Zazu45]

Skeet.

Yes, the packaging stated:"For BB, BBB and T shot".
My guess is that is the reason "BB" shoots tighter than no2 in it.
I definitaly have to try "BBB" and "T" shots in it as I am convinced they will shoot better .
So my guess is that I will have to buy another choke to shoot no2 and "BB" at ducks.

[fabsroman]

While you are at it, but another gun too. See, if duck and goose season overlap, you'll need another gun so that you can have each choke installed and you can have the proper pellet size shells loaded in each gun. Personally, I am thiking about going back to using the modified choke that came with my SBE.

[tjwatty]

fabs, on that note,

I found that my new super duper ciro-genicly barreled longer chokes so the ones you have won't work Bennelli patterns a whole lot different than my older Bennelli.
The Mod. works almost as good as the Briley Mod. (duck choke) in the M1 Super and the factory choke sucks in full for turkey.
Once again it just proves that Skeet fella knows his stuff, they all shoot different.

Don't cha just hate it when he's right ALL the time???

[fabsroman]

Skeet being right ALL the time would be scary, and I totally agree that all chokes and shotguns shoot differently. That is why I am a big fan of reloading. I can ensure that I keep everything constant unless one of the manufacturers of a component changes something up.

[Zazu45]

Hi guys.
I recently shot a few patterns thru the "UNDERTAKER" with BB's and T shot. Results were not too bad , but nothing to jump up and down.
One more question bothers me, everybody say that speed is very important with steel shot and still when I look at what companies offer they are many loads in 1300fps or less.
Even the big 10ga. wich many say is much superior to the 12ga. shows some pretty conventional speeds.
I understand that as the shot gets bigger they can hold speed better being heavier but how slow can you go?
So my question is :what should be the minimum speed one should consider depending on shot size?

[fabsroman]

Was that done at 40 yards? If so, it isn't too bad. Not great, but not too bad either. Steel is supposed to pattern tighter than lead, but not as tight as Hevi. If that is the best pattern you can get with that load, I think I would try some others out to see if they can do better.

[tjwatty]

Minimum speed? Wow, now that's a tough one.

I used 1 3/8 oz. Winchester steel #2's for years, I believe they were 1350fps and was completely convinced they were the best. The last couple of years I have played with the faster loads and now I like the 1550fps loads from Federal, I still like #2's for most of my waterfowl but have found the 1 1/4oz. loads give me more killing power and I haven't missed that other 1/8 oz.
My turkey loads I still use my trap load with #6 lead, 1150fps. I shoot from a tent blind and have never shot a bird farther than 30yards so big loads just seem to be over kill. With that said I bought a box of 3.5 mag. 6's this year but apparently the turkeys knew I did and stayed away. I might even go and pattern some before next year, smart thing to do, but hay, I've never been accused of that too much.

back to the Minimum thing, I don't think I would want to get to slow with waterfowl loads, them ducks and geese are pretty tough and speed does kill.

[Zazu45]

Sorry, actually that was only one of the loads I tried.
This next picture shows three different steel loads and one lead for reference.
no.1: Winchester Super double X 3in. mag. 1 7/8oz BB (lead)
no.2: Winchester Expert 3in.mag. 1 3/8 oz. no.2 (steel)
no.3: Win. Supremes 3in.mag. 1 1/4 oz. BB (steel)
no.4: Win. Super X "Drylock" 3in.mag. 1 1/4oz. "T" (steel)
Ammunition availability in my area, has limited me to Winchester ammo so far. I intend to try something else soon.

[skeet]

Wouldn't it be great if you could use that load #1?? That is a pretty good pattern. I also notice that a couple of the steel pattens seem to have a hole low center actually probably just shoots a little higher than the lead any way. The T pattern looks skimpy but remember the load only has about 60-65 pellet so the pattern isn't really that bad. When the choke is made for larger pellets in steel it won't pattern smaller any where as well as the larger. The larger pellets need a little bit of fudge room so they can squeeze through the choke where the smaller shot has a little more ...well liquidity is a fair word and you can use a bit ighter choke for the smaller sizes. Still every now and then one will pop up and surprise ya. As far as speed with steel they found out in the first couple of years that traditional speeds did not kill as well with steel. So after a lot of work they got the speeds up to where steel kills somewhat better. But even fast steel will never really kill as well as lead or the heavy hi tech stuff. The new hi tech stuff and lead just kills consistently beter that steel from close to long range. Even with that ..shots at waterfowl should be kept inside 50 yds for the average hunter. We even had some pits in the past that we used a 150 ft rope on to make sure we kept the decoys inside of 50 yds. 50 yds is a long way.

[Zazu45]

How do #2 steel perform on geese, looks like it would be a great wing breaker when driven at 1400fps.+
By the way the patchiness of those patterns remind me of what I got once from a bad batch of lead (too soft).
the patterns were simply ugly from my BPS full choke barrel, the cure was using my modified one instead.
With the mod. choke the patterns were tight and even, but with the full I was getting about half the shot in a tight cluster with the rest scattered all around.
Since the "UNDERTAKER" has a .030 constriction, makes me wonder if it's not a bit too tight ?

[fabsroman]

#2 steel on geese isn't very good unless you shoot them in the heads or the wings, or you are shooting small geese. Anything smaller than BB steel here on greater Canada geese will result in a lot of wounded birds unless you are shooting them at 10 yards. I never use #2 steel when goose hunting because I never know how far the birds will come in.

[skeet]

Take heed to what Fabs says. If you know they are gonna be inside 30 yds all the time it'll work. There is only one way of knowing that in a normal hunting field and it ain't quite legal. BB's are much better as an all around shot for geese. BBB and T are better....and I have personally observed #2 steel drifting more than 3 ft at 30 yds in the winter winds we quite often see while waterfowling. First time I saw that I was amazed!!

[tjwatty]

I've killed geese with #2's before, only because I grabbed the wrong gun or forgot to change. (magazine lockouts only work as good as the dummy holding it.)
Skeet, that drift thing is amazing, especially with a newbie on the bow of the boat, big waves and high wind chasing cripples. I've had them go through the better part of a box of shells before they listen, great comedy though.
In just the right light conditions, standing behind a shooter you can actually see the curve, makes a major leage curve ball pitcher jealous.

[Zazu45]

Yesterday, for the sake of comparison, I went and did a few patterns using the factory Mod. choke.
Results ? Exact same patterns as with the "Undertaker" but MUCH more even pellet distribution. Percentage did not vary more than 2% . Actualy, the "T" shot did about 5% better with the mod. but that could be a fluke.
Makes me wonder why I spent money on a new choke in the first place ?

[skeet]

We always spend a little here and there we don't or didn't need to spend. It is in our nature to buy more stuff cause what we want will always(almost) work better. Again the patterns you are shooting are static patterns and aren't even close to what you will see in the field. Pay attention to what TJ said in his previous post. In the field the wind and water and other factors such as the crossing angle of the bird etc will affect the actual usable patten. That is one of the reasons we try to set decoys and blind sites so we are going to get straight in coming shots. TJ is right..the most important thing to learn is to shoot in the field. If you see the equipment just isn't cutting it out there then ya go to a(the) backup plan...even if ya don't have one. Being a "successful" waterfowler means that you have to be innovative and willing to try new stuff. Use the factory chokes and if unhappy with the undertaker put it on ebay. May take a slight loss but better than having something you don't like or have a need for. Being innovative goes somewhat like this. Had a party out hunting and the geese would set up and turn off at the last second... so I got the party out of the pit...moved all the decoys except 4 upwind 40 yds. Kept 4 near the pit and flagged the geese from there. Next 3 bunches we limited out with shots of about 15 yds. Didn't look right but in that circumstance it worked. Other times too. Always think above the curve. Equipment isn't the key in hunting...that little thing between our ears is!

Hey TJ..watching shot in the air is kind of easy but only as you say...from the right angle. When shooting skeet or teaching my students..I try to stay at the right spot so I can see the shot. At least then I do know where they miss. The only one that is hard to see is the 410. Also best against a light grey sky.

[fabsroman]

Zazu,

They got you. There is so much equipment out there that is the "best". Like you, I wonder sometimes about my patternmaster choke. It is terrible on small steel and not really that good on big steel. If I get a chance to pattern it again, I am going to do so. Honestly, I am tempted to go back to the modified choke that came with the Benelli SBE. It killed hundreds, maybe thousands of geese. In fact, I have no idea why I bought the Patternmaster, other than that I was at a hunting show and I had money burning a hole in my wallet.

I am sure that I bought a lot of stuff that really wasn't worth it. That is what is great about ebay. It can now be sold to somebody else that has money burning a hole in his/her wallet.

[tjwatty]

Skeet,
Through the years I've watched everything from machine gun rounds to 105 howitzer rounds and it never fails to amaze me. I often question what I'm seeing because rarely do I see shot on the hits, only the misses. I begin to wonder if I'm seeing the wad more than the shot but then at times I'll pick up both. I seem to be a freak with the guys I shoot with because I'm the only one who see's it. I'm glad you do too, makes me think I'm not the only one.
Most of our skeet shooters shoot .410 or 28ga. some 20ga. I'm the only cannon shooter (12ga) but I shoot 1 oz or 3/4oz loads to keep them happy. I have a 12ga. loader and those little gauges are just too dang expensive to shoot all the time. Even the empty 28ga are bringing 10 cents per. and with the price of gas now it's hard to justify going to the range 3 times a week.