Glaser Blue or Glaser Silver?

[GoodOlBoy]

I am thinking about ordering Glaser slugs for my Charter Undercover in 38 special. (Not the +P mind you)

Would you order Glaser Silver or Glaser Blue? I am leaning towards Glaser Blue.

GoodOlBoy

[Tater]

I don't remember what color they are but I'm ordering the ones with the bigger shot. Seems like they'd hold together better going through clothing and such as well as slowing down faster reducing the likelihood of over penetration.

[Jack]

Color coordinated ammo ?!?
Sounds like some joke Skinny and TD would pull......:D

[BILLY D.]

I think I'd choose the blue, It would match most of my sport coats the best. Silver is a little too hussey for me.

harking back to the thread on the utilization of handloads and ultra high power loads for self defense wouldn't these rounds fall into that category?

After all it might be an evil 9MM and every jury member has heard them familiarized as cop killers and human killers. And a 38 special is much bigger than a 9MM so it must be a real man killer.

Horror of horrers.

Rant over, Bill

[GoodOlBoy]

Aight ya smartalecs.


BLUE: Glaser BLUE uses #12 shot compressed into a solid form. The Glaser BLUE produces immediate energy dispersal into the target, reducing the possibility of over penetration and creating abrupt stopping power. The numerous projectiles disperses outward generating an effective wound cavity.

SILVER: Glaser SILVER is made up of #6 shot. With the Silver load, you get much larger segments; deeper penetration and controlled energy release.

Both loads reduce the possibility of over penetration through the intended target. They provide for an added margin of safety. A missed round is much more likely to break up on an interior wall and dump its energy rather than proceeding unabated into an adjoining room. The light fast bullets reduce the felt recoil and are excellent loads for the small compact carry guns and snub nose revolvers. For over 27 years the Glaser Safety Slug has been the overwhelming choice for the "house gun" stored in the nightstand


NOW. Glaser Blue (which goes with my eyes) or Silver (Which matches my shoes, but not my boots )

:D

Seriously which one?

GoodOlBoy

[Jack]

In my snubby, I use Silvertips (they match my hair) :D

[GoodOlBoy]

ohhh good point Jack. I am gettin some grey streaks in mine.

Sounds like a winner to me. What do you guys think?

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Ok Mr. 16 guage. Lets assume I don't want to shoot a +p load in a non +p 38. And lets assume that I KNOW a 158grn LRN will go through a man like **** through a goose. And lets assume I suspect 158gr SJSP will do the same thing give or take an inch. Now. Assuming I am NEVER going to handload for this caliber. AND assuming I am not going to be using hollowpoints because we already have in evidence that judges and lawyers in this country are trying to push that buying a hollopoint is premeditated murder. AND assuming I work on a college campus where a pass through has the potential for hitting a dense population of about 22,000 people within a 14x14 block area. Lets also assume that if we are going to talk about the old FBI load that we also take into acocunt the fact that the FBI abandoned it because it wouldn't penetrate SOME tempered glass windshields. (Guess we better hope it aint a driveby huh?)

Under THOSE conditions how does a glaser sound to yas? (Yea it wont go through the windshield either huh?)

Yes I know there is NO guarentee that it will stop. I also know there is no gaurentee that it is going to NOT stop in a jacket etc. I also have two speed loaders full of 158gr LRN sitting beside the gun in its lock box in case the five glasser rounds don't do the trick. There also happens to be a 10 rounds box of CCI shotshells in there too. . . . . Hrm its a toolbox who woulda figured I would vary my tools. Both a screwdriver AND a wrench. What a concept.

We aren't talking about an assault of communist or terrorist sympathizers loaded with AK-97s with drumbs full of APDS ammunition wearing vests and armour. Because when we get to that point you are in alot deeper than you are going to easily get out of with a 5 shot snubnose .38

The REASON for the glasser. The ONLY reason I am buying a 6 pack of those expensive rounds is because if I have to gimp some jackarse that won't back down from a life threateneing situation (IE my life being threatened) simply by show of gun then I want SOME SMALL hope that when the bullet passes through him (assuming it does) it does not hit the approx 12 1/2 blocks of pavement and concrete we have on campus and ricochette through a window or into one of the MANY crowds we have.

Bare in mind I don't trust my life to just any tom dick and harry branded ammo either.

158gr LRN - Magtech
158gr SJSP - Magtech
109gr Shotshell - CCI/Speer

All of these I have extensively tested any they work each time every time. And each one I have multiples of in my box with the gun.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

Don't take this wrong bud...but it seems you had your mind made up when ya posted the question. The only comment I have is this. You have already put too many suppositions into the equation already. My wife carries a S&W Chief's special(don't think it is +P rated as it is an older one). I loaded it with 110 gr JHP. Works just fine...expands pretty well. and worry about the hollow point issue later. What you would REALLY like to have is a one shot stop with no complete penetration. Yes there are probably many police departments that use hollow point ammo. The scenarios you have brought up are all possible...with any ammo...glasers included. If you have to worry about all the problems you have stated then the best thing to carry will be a sling shot(that is said tongue in cheek). In all the shooting victims i ever had to deal with...only two had complete pass thru's...one was a 9mm FMC to the left cheek..exit over the right ear and the other was 4 25 auto rounds to one victim..one thru the thigh one thru the shoulder one to the left side and the right arm..all passed thru. Another victim had 6 357 rounds into a 4 inch area center chest..none passed thru and they were all , if I remember correctly, 125 gr HP at a distance of less than 20 ft. Oh, the victim DID Not make it, BTW. Believe me..in a shooting situation... You'll be into real pucker mode.. Adrenaline is abundant in real high doses in a gun fight. I don't care how much training ya have.

[GoodOlBoy]

Nope I really hadn't (and still haven't for the most part) decided between the blue and the silver glasers. As for deciding for glasers yeah that I did.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

Ya know I was just thinking maybe I came across wrong to Mr. 16 guage and everybody else. I appreciate ANY advice, and like an common sense shooter I know there is NO magic bullet. If there was we wouldn't be haveing this discussion at all. There are ups and downs to every single bullet type and round out there.

Basically what I wanted was peoples opinions on the two veriations of the glasser production for 38 special. The blue and the silver.

Anyway just thought I should clear that up before it gets out of hand.

GoodOlBoy

[Aim to maim]

Originally posted by GoodOlBoy
AND assuming I am not going to be using hollowpoints because we already have in evidence that judges and lawyers in this country are trying to push that buying a hollopoint is premeditated murder.

GOB,

I respect your determined effort to think things through logically and believe you will be most confident with whatever load your research tells you is best. That's what you should probably go with and I would not presume to advise you otherwise.

However, I would be interested in your being able to cite a single court case that bears out the assertion about hollow point ammunition. There may well be one out there, but I have not heard about it.

[BILLY D.]

GOB

If you are truly interested in ricochets use Skeeter Skeltons old trick of the upside down wadcutter. Just make sure you empty the firearm though because I'm sure they "MIGHT" get ya in trouble in court.

I shot a jackrabbit with one and when I later looked at the rabbit I actually felt sorry for it. What a mess.

Bill

[GoodOlBoy]

In the Case of Ken Gage

The ammunition to the decedent’s 9mm are “hollow—point” (RT 3628), “copper—jacketed” (RT 3604, 3628), and are designed to do “significantly more damage” than standard ammunition. RT 3628.


The DA argued that this constituted premeditation.

I have heard this argument used (I never said I had seen it used sucessfully, but sooner or later you will get a liberal enough judge) MULTIPLE times in court cases about shootings.

I can site more cases if you wish, or you can go do a little research and find TONS of court cases where a liberal DA argued that the simple USE of "hollow-point ammunition" constituded premeditation. IE You bought it because it would kill somebody ISN'T THAT RIGHT MR DEFEDANT!

Anyway I think it is ludicrus (or however you spell it) that it would ever even come up in court. But it has and will.


Billy D. - I had though about that. What was the slang term for it the flying ashtray? Anyway the problem is I DO know you should NEVER EVER EVER use handloads for self defense (Yet again see the argument on premeditation. YOU SPECIFICALLY LOADED THOSE TO KILL SOMEBODY DIDN'T YOU MR DEFENDANT!) AND I really don't want to handload anything else anyway. I think I have become handload lazy to be honest with you.

Good arguments though all. I had TRIED to find just plain old cylindrical lead wadcutters out there too because of the fact that (from what I have been told mind you) they don't ricochette as bad. Howsomever I have not found a company loading them.

Where it up to me I would pack a sawed off semi-auto 12 guard with alternating 00 buck and Rifled lead slugs. Tell me THAT double tap wouldn't end the argument.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

I have also used ol skeeter's hollow base wad cutter loads..inverted . It was a very good load for self defense and I can tell ya there is no way the prosecution could use it for an argument in a court that you were using a hollow point. I have actually seen those ol things go sideways at a distance. As you said ..just empty the gun and throw the rest away....or empty all of 'em in the creep.

GOB I also applaud your patient way of trying to figure the best safest way to use your firearm. I personally don't think the Glasers are the way to go. Can yu show a preponderance of departments using the ammo for your stated reasons? Heck during the time of the skymarshals they didn't worry about the ammo used by their officers. There was a LOT of talk about explosive decompression in aircraft....but that was a worry that really wasn't necessary. Does the department you work for use this type of ammo(glaser)?? Try using a tried true round that has been shown to work well in defensive situations in numerous times and places. And prosecutions try all the time to put the most negative spin on any case they are trying. The hollow point argument just won't hold water...as there are a large number of police agencies using them. The defense attorney would only have to point that out and say then youare accusing the police of premeditated murder because they use hollowpoints. Boy could you see the Reverend(J J) getting ahold of that in big city papers. Hell every police shooting would be a murder by the police.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah buddy but keep in mind I am not "technically" an officer. I am carrying concealed on my person with a valid CHL, but I am by no means a "certified LEO". Therefore the rules apply to me as though I were any other joe walking down the street with a CHL.

I dunno I have not LIKED the idea of glasers since the get go. The PROBLEM is that I don't have alot of choice, but it has been recommended to me to use a fragible bullet by the department heads for the very reason I stated. We actually have had a person in our area (not on campus) who shot a suspect charging him with a knife. The bullet penetrated the suspect and the rear window of a suburban (and lodged in the back seat). The VICTIM was charged with damaged to private property, reckless discharge of a firearm, and reckless endangerment. The judge in the cast threw out reckless endangerment because there was not anybody actually IN the suburban. He gave him deferred adjudacation on the reckless discharge because he WAS defending his life. The damaged to private property charge stood, and he was made to pay for the damage. (Personally I think the perp should have had to pay for it but bleh) The problem comes in that SINCE the damage to private property stood that means that in theory had the bullet hit somebody he could have been tried under the transfered intent laws.

Thats what worries me is all the liberals out there in the courts.

SOOOOO anybody know of another good non-handload frangible bullet solution or the like? Remember please no +P rounds.

Wouldn't it be nice to just load the bugger up with 158 grain HPs and not have to worry about all this?

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

That judge needs to be adjudicated mentally incompetent!..Again...does the dept you are not an officer of use glaser bullets? And they allow concealed carry on the campus...for any licensed individual? Not arguing..just wondering! If so they are a Lot smarter than the University of Va!!

[GoodOlBoy]

Nope not allowed per say but it can be left in my vehicle. My vehicle is parked apporx 22 feet from my office door.

As for Glassers no our officers don't use glassers on duty (some of them carry them in their off duty guns). They use anywhere from 9mm ball ammo to 45 starfire HPs. It is actually left up to the officers.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

A real shame ya can't carry. I have used some of the Starfire 45's and they are pretty good loads..or have been for me. Haven't had to shoot anyone with them...yet...but that may be coming!:D

[TreeDoc]

Ya'll got it wrong.

If it's a good lookin' but crazed woman you're trying to stop, you need the heavy Pink Tip slug.

[Rocky Raab]

GOB, here's what I'd do. I'd ask the plainclothes detectives what they carry in their snubbie .38s. If it's issue ammo, or "recommended" for officer carry, that's what I'd get. And I'd carry it with confidence. It'll work if the need arises.

And if it ever came up in court, your attorney can say, "That's the ammo our own city police carry, and my client used it BECAUSE that's what the city police use.

[skeet]

As usual the best answer and as usual it seems to be the easiest answer

[Jack]

I think Rocky's hit on a very cogent idea.
Now, GOB, as I recall, Remington makes a line of pistol ammo called Golden Saber....
And Federal used to make a line called Nyclad, that was lead bullet in a dark blue plastic coating....
So, if you need to color coordinate, there are a few more options :D

[skeet]

I was trying to remember that name. Someplace around here I have a 1/2 case of Golden Saber 45's and they shoot really good out of most of my 45 auto's. Also the Nyclads were really pretty good ammo. Originally S&W manufacture(Alcan)

[GoodOlBoy]

Yeah ya would figure Rocky would come up with the simplest response. I only WISH I could find golden sabers in 38 special. I have used them in my 45s, and have even shot a rabid dog with one and I have to say WOW. Most effective HP I have ever seen. The two plainclothes we have both carry autos for backup, HOWSOMEVER the Asst Chief and the Chief used to carry snubbies for backup. Both are out today but I WILL find out what they used to carry in them.

You know it is a sad sad thing but we do not have a SINGLE officer carrying a revolver anymore. We had a gentleman who carried a DA S&W 4" in 44 mag several years back but he retired last year. He was the last.

Myself I am still looking around for a good 4" 357 to start budgeting for down the road.

Anyway good suggestion Rocky like I said I will check into it.

As for Nyclads I had read about how good they are. Now try to find a box of them for sale.

GoodOlBoy

[Skinny Shooter]

GOB, will this work:
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=211732 Not sure if they are +P though.
Or this: http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=235724

[GoodOlBoy]

I dunno about the hollowpoints but that is the first place I have seen lead wadcutters for sale. I will order a box wether they work or not.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

This was the other one I HAVE been looking at.

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/87386-4209-169.html

But yet again the concern over hps worries me with this ammo.

GoodOlBoy

[GoodOlBoy]

This was the ohter thing I considered. My only concern being ricochette. I like Magtech ammunition and so far in thousands of rounds out of several calibers I have never had a misfire, nor a flier.

http://www.magtechammunition.com/sitepages/pid103.php?productId=590&ltemplate=details&templateId=14&pageId=103&search=details

sorry wrong link that was to the +P version. Now it is right.

[GoodOlBoy]

After speakin for a bit with our detectives again today, AND finally getting ahold of the Asst Chief I have two or three real choices ahead of me again.

HPS (I know I know Mr. 16 Guage and a bunch of you already advised it.) are ALL they suggest. Homesomever they did say that should it come to trial (apparently they have been through this before with the wife of an officer who was a licensed CHL holder) Any one of them will gladly testify that the REASON they suggest HPs for me to carry was to STOP over penetration. NOT to "kill better".

:rolleyes:

Why oh why don't I listen to you guys in the frist freakin place.

OK here is what all I am considering.

Magtech 38 Special 158 Grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Points
Federal Premium Personal Defense Low Recoil Ammunition 38 Special 110 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Points (which Skinny suggested)
Hornady Custom Ammunition 38 Special 158 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Points
Remington Golden Saber Ammunition 38 Special +P 125 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Points

I kinda don't want to shoot the golden sabers ONLY because they are +p (I can't find a non +P flavor of them) And I am actually leaning away from the Hyrdra-shok's because of the lower grain weight of the bullet.

That leaves (I still want to discuss ALL other options) The magtechs and the Hornadys. Now the magtechs are appealing because for a buck less a box I am getting 50 instead of 20. And since I am a fan of Rocky's motto "Shoot what you carry" then it would make my carry rounds a lot less pricey for keeping up practice.

WHAT DO YOU THINK? Yes yes I know I asked this way back at the begining, BUT it is a subject I don't think can be talked to death. I would rather risk talking it to death than finding out I was bad wrong the hard way.

GoodOlBoy

[BILLY D.]

One point, no pun intended, about Golden sabers in 357. they sell 2 different types, one for 38SP and one for 357MAG. I have never tried interchanging them and I don't know by testing if they are all that different. I have shot some small game with them and they do what they are supposed to do. I will buy more when I need to. They were very accurate in my Ruger Security Six.

I used the 125 grainers. My 9MM that produces a .002 bigger hole. Everybody always asks why I don't like 9MMs. I just like something different. Same reason I just purchased a !9 Caliber Calhoun rifle. Shoots a 32 gr bullet at 3600fps with a 17gr powder charge. I just broke it in last week and when it quits raining I hope to get out and stop a few Gopher charges.

The only negative for old folks like with 28 knuckles of arthritis is the daintiness of the bullets. 17's are worse, 22's are nice but I prefer 6mms. Something like buying pants. 30 fits, 32 feels good so I buy a size 34.

Anyway I thought I'd pass on the GS info just in case anyone was unaware.

Best wishes, Bill

[TreeDoc]

Federal Hydra-Shoks in all my CCW Guns which all but 1 are autos. The S&W 638 Airweight sports the 110gr +P round that Skinny speaks of.

[GoodOlBoy]

Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel Ammunition 38 Special +P 135 Grain Jacketed Hollow

Another contender MADE for short barrels. TO tell the truth TD I have throught about the Hydra shoks since skinny mentioned them And one of the officers carries them. The only issue I have is that price tag makes them a little iffy for keeping up practice with them. Howsomever I may have to practice with something else and just shoot a cylinder of so of those to know where I am hitting with them.

Anybody tried the Speers?

I still don't like the +p idea. I know that Charter says the gun is made for them. And people say they won't hurt a modern stainless 38. But my barrel is NOT marked 38spl +P it is marked 38 SPL.

Gives me a little bit of the cold shivers.

GoodOlBoy

[skeet]

I have some Speer Gold Dots in 380 and some 9mm I think. They seem to work well. They are pricey..but two boxes will last ya a long time for CCW. Also remember shoot out ranges are short for the most part..so practice short too

[GoodOlBoy]

Yes that has been a falicy of mine in the past. I have practiced at only longer ranges. After the class and seeing just how close the required shooting range was I am *ahem* inspired to practice something a wee bit closer now.

GoodOlBoy

[RUMLUVER]

If it was me I would choose the blue. To me and my thoughts the small shot would travel less and dispurse more into a immediate gunshot wound. Both bonuses when dealing with the sircumstances you described. For my home defence load I would also choose the blue but right now I'm using 230gr Gold Dots out of my Para Ord Nite TAC 45.

[Calif Hunter]

I would also use the blue Glaser safety slug. (Wouldn't that play before a jury - "I bought them because the box said "safety" slug that would not penetrate and richochet.")

The police officer that taught our CCW course has shot several perps and been present shortly after many shootings. He recommends Winchester SXT, Speer Gold Dots and Golden Sabres - in that order. He also prefers bullets that do noit exit.

As far as the Galsers go, he said that if you wanted to know why more departments did not use them, to go look at all the holes in the walls and ceilings of police ready rooms or locker rooms.... cops are not all gun-nuts and there a lot of accidental discharges. Glasers are just too nasty and too fatal. His opinion, but I respect his experience.

As far as hollowpoints go, he said that you state that you were told to use them "in this course" as they were most effective in stopping the acts against you, do not overpenetrate and are thus the safest round for you to use. Your goal is not to kill the other party but to stop him from hurting you.

[jmarriott]

Federal Hydra-shoks in 38 are what i use for ccw, in a Rossi 2 1/2 inch 357. Try seeing after the first shot in the dark with a 357 load.