June Fir,Fish,Game - Bridgers trashed traditional & PRB

[roundball]

June edition of Fur, Fish, and Game...Bridgers article puts down traditional and the PRB...recommends the modern techno crap as nausem...this is my letter to the magazine just now:
==============================================
The June issue of Fur, Fish & Game carries an article about muzzleloading which essentially portrays traditional forms of hunting with the patched round ball in a traditional style muzzleloader as an ineffective projectile for taking game. Instead, you recommend the latest and greatest modern high tech, high performance, long range, scope sighted, technological wonder-rifles using sealed weather proof ignitions, modern jacketed bullets, modern powder, modern primers for ignition, boasting centerfire ballistics and 200 yard shots.

The facts are that muzzleloading seasons were originally established by and for dedicated traditional muzzleloading enthusiasts who wanted to preserve a part of our American heritage...and a major way to do that was through special muzzleloading seasons that would continue to attract and encourage hunters to learn and master the ways of our forefathers muzzleloading equipment and hunting skills, and in so doing help keep the tradition alive.

And remember that powerful, scope sighted centerfire rifles were specifically excluded from these traditional muzzleloading seasons for obvious reasons. The equipment now being recommended by your magazine flies in the face of that tradition, and logic.

It is particularly disturbing to see that Fur, Fish & Game has lost sight of that special part of our heritage and now endorses the latest and greatest modern high tech, high performance, long range, scope sighted, technological wonder-rifles using sealed weather proof ignitions, modern jacketed bullets, modern powder, modern primers for ignition, boasting centerfire ballistics and 200 yard shots.

These high tech rifles are only referred to as "muzzleloaders" simply because they happen to load through the muzzle....all other forms of association to what is traditionally meant by the term "muzzleloading" are non-existent.

IMO, it is also disingenuous for a magazine to consider itself as being grounded in time honored traditional values of hunting, fishing, and trapping...yet endorse and publish muzzleloading articles such as this one in the June issue.

If new people are now running Fur, Fish, and Game and they simply don't know any better, I suggest they pause and reflect on the fact that the "patched round ball" has been completely effective in Flintlocks, later caplocks, across all the centuries since it was invented, right to the present and still going strong.

A .50cal lead ball through a deer's "boiler room" at 100 yards is still 100% as lethal today as it was 400 years ago...nothing has changed that.
I and many hunting acquaintances, do all our deer hunting with patched round balls.
I and they fill multiple deer tags that way every year at a variety of distances, most of which are beyond your articles suggested distance limitation.
Most of my deer have been taken with .45 & .50 caliber patched round balls in caplocks and Flintlocks.

Furthermore, I have never lost a deer using a patched round ball and resent the implications by your magazine that they are an inferior and ineffective projectile.

I cannot in good conscience renew a subscription to a magazine that endorses and promotes the kind of muzzleloading article you ran this month, which puts down a time honored, proven, effective form of early American traditional muzzleloading hunting equipment.

Sincerely,

[jmarriott]

Knight and T/c are major advertisers in FF&G. Mags sell equipment and dreams.

T/C sells some more traditional muzzleloaders but the encore and Omega most likely outsell the traditionals 3 to one. And the profit margin is is most likely higher than the traditionals also.

I don't muzzleload at all but in the 1980's Handgun hunting became legal for deer in Indiana. (Maybe earlier but I was to young for a permit.) Most likely it was thought that most would use the good old 44 mag revolver and such to harvest deer. 60 yards was about the limit. Did they expect T/c to produce the Encore pistol with rounds like 270 and 30-06. Most likely not.

I got my T/C contender to extend my harvest range from 100 yards(smoot barrel foster slug shotgun) to 160 yards (35 rem 14 inch pistol). Then advances in rifled slug barrels and sabot rounds found me turning to the hastings barrels and sabot round for clean shots up to about 200 yards with the slug gun. Now handloading and 7-30 waters barrels give my pistol the 200 yards range. Each time I spent alot of money upgrading barrels, scopes, and accesories.

Since 1985 I have never shot a Indiana deer over 100 yards. I could have saved lots of money sticking with the foster slug and smoothbore barrel.

I purchased each upgrade hoping the the deer of a lifetime would pop out in the field edge at 120 yards, 170 yards, 210 yards, and I might be able to make that shot.

Dreams sell equipment, Mags advertise equipent, Writers recieve free gear to write pieces about equipment that might sell the dream.

I bought in, Others did also. Last year the old smoothbore Browning auto 5 open sighted shotgun with 75 cent each Winchester foster slugs broought down my only deer of the season in a family deer drive running at 30 yards. I purchased 5 boxes of the newest rifled slugs at 57 dollars plus tax, Still dreamimg that deer would pop out of the woods at 175 yards. One box of rifled shells was shot up sighting in the load all 4 others are still in the dream closet with my hunting clothes.

[jplonghunter]

Attaboy Roundball, keep them honest!! I too enjoy hunting with traditional muzzleloader and believe the in-lines are a hi-powered rifle that happens to load through the muzzle.

jplonghunter

[skeet]

Roundball, I guess I understand the issues you have with the magazine writing that the roundball isn't the best projectile for hunting. ...But understand ...I have killed quite a few deer with roundballs...and lots have been killed over the centuries with the roundball. Honestly though, is the roundball the BEST to use to shoot an animal? Even though you feel they are adequate and all you need you must admit that the conicals or solid slugs are for the most part better killers. Not saying that they can't be killed with roundballs..but be objective. If the roundball was better that is what we would be using today in all our rifles. I really liked the early seasons with the muzzleloaders. I used a T-C Hawken in 45 and then 50(roundballs, too). Sad to say but the average muzzleloading hunter now goes with convenience rather than tradition. JM Marriott was probably off with the numbers of traditional muzzys to inlines etc. More like 20 to 1 now. I happen to still have my Hawkens and an original Pennsylvania gun and will shoot them occassionally when I have a desire for pain. Not the shooting understand...but the interminal cleaning and oiling and re-cleaning later for for safety's sake. I also have a Savage Smokeless ML that I do shot more often..mainly because the cleaning chore is minimal. In that regards for me it is more fun. Oh and yes I am a traditionalist in most regards when it comes to guns. I like wood stocks and steel for metal. Blue over stainless. And I surely don't need all the "new" short wonder cartridges Not trashing you..not saying you are wrong..just saying that we both are falling behind the curve when it comes to guns and shooting. If the magazine was trashing muzzleloaders completely I'd really be on 'em too. But don't trash the whole rag just for one or 2 issues you don't agree with. I buy the mag every now and then.. and have for years...will continue in the same way in the future.

[roundball]

I simply posted something that might have been of iterest to other traditionally minded muzzleloading enthusiasts...that modern Savage smokeless powder advocates take issue with it is no surprise.

My professionally prepared expressed opinion to a magazine editior about one article they printed does not constitute "trashing a magazine"...and I have a right to offer my comments to them...I have a multi-year subscription prepaid well in advance.

[Skinny Shooter]

Roundball, that is a well written response.
Thanks for standing up and being counted. Seems like that writer used silly arguments to trash traditionalists...
Aways back, Steve Hornady lobbied the Pa Game Commission to have conicals be allowed in primitive season.
It seems to be all about the money...

Oh yeah, I heard one time that nipples don't belong on a man's gun... ;)

[Adam Helmer]

roundball,

Thanks for sharing your excellent letter. I agree, the "Traditional Muzzleloader Season" is for the traditional muzzleloaders.

I have opined to the Pennsylvania Game Commission that the modern MLs belong in the rifle deer season along with other MODERN rifles. About 2 years ago, PGC modified the regulations to allow "Any Muzzleloader" in the October ML season.

Lewis and Clark and the Corps of Discovery used pathed roundballs from May 1804 until September 1806 to literally walk from St. Louis to the Pacific Ocean and back. Yes, they did find the grizz a bit of a challenge for PRB, but for the most part, PRB did just fine.

I like your theme (and I now paraphrase a bit) that the traditional arms require attention to details while the modern MLs are a shortcut for many folks who want to hunt a second season with not too much effort on their part.

Again, I like your letter and you state my feelings very well.

Adam

[popplecop]

I too, applaud you Roundball. To me it is hunting in the old ways that atracted me to sport 30-40 years ago. Same with handguns I still prefer the SA revolvers with open sights. I know my limitations and am happy to hunt at those ranges. I have a number of scoped rifles if I choose to hunt at longer distances. And flintlocks are forever.

[BILLY D.]

roundball and Adam

Although I am not a strict traditionalist, I use Clean Shot Powder and Sabots...sometimes but I do shoot a lot of PRB'S. My firearm is a caplock, CVA St. Louis Hawken. I have professed these shenanigans before.

I have also remarked on the advent of the belt or magazine fed muzzleloader.....looks like we are one step closer with the electronic ignition system.

Now granted this thing loads from the front designating it a muzzleloader but.....busses load from the front also and they are not muzzleloaders. We are stretching terms here.

Our mz season up here is at the tail end of the rest of the seasons. We are sucking hind teat to put it mildly. I would like to hunt in a truly traditional manner during this season but I'll be dipped in doo doo before I go out across the countryside at 30° below zero weather in buckskins. I've done some less than smart things in my life but that ain't gonna be one of them.

Muzzleloaders that shoot faux powders, are in lines, have any kind of lit sight or a scope do not belong in the woods or plains during muzzleloader season. PERIOD.

Thats my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Best wishes, Bill

Let the flames begin. I've been shot, stabbed and burnt before. Whats new?

[skeet]

As a shooter and hunter I feel I owe it to the game to use the most efficient tools for hunting. I am first off not advocating the Savage. I simply said for ME at this time I do not like to clean black powder guns. As far as advocating I feel that we should introduce as many new people into the sport as we can. Traditional and non traditional. I did NOT say that the roundball isn't able to kill animals..I simply said that there are more efficient projectiles. As I said I used roundballs in my traditional Hawken type rifles. And as far as trashing the magazine? YOU wrote the letter to them stating you would not renew the subscription because they printed an article contrary to what you believe. So I take it you are going to cancel the subscription? I have a lot of respect for the traditionalist black powder shooter and hunters. At the same time I am not blind to the other side of the issue either. When I was hunting quite a bit with the Hawken I kept my shots under 100 yds and tried hard to keep them under 50(which wasn't too hard in my neck of the woods) Other than Natty Bumpo of Leatherstocking fame.AKA .La Long Carabine..I feel that the round ball should be used in like manner now too. I imagine you do too. Sorry if you took offence. It wasn't written that way

Hey Billy... There were quite a few people bumped off during the War of Northern Aggression(Civil War) with a frontloading percussion firearm with a scope. One famous Confederate General was one. Ain't hardly nothing new under the sun. But Berdan's sharpshooters did use conical bullets...hehehe! Not dissing y'all...just reminding ya. I also just have to remind you of the Ferguson Rifle of the Revolutionary War era. Breechloading rifle that never really got the time of day because of the Stiff British traditionalism. If it had been adopted by the Brits...we might have lost that fight..oh if I am not wrong..it shot a round ball too!

[roundball]

Originally posted by Adam Helmer
roundball,

Thanks for sharing your excellent letter. I agree, the "Traditional Muzzleloader Season" is for the traditional muzzleloaders.

I like your theme (and I now paraphrase a bit) that the traditional arms require attention to details while the modern MLs are a shortcut for many folks who want to hunt a second season with not too much effort on their part.

Again, I like your letter and you state my feelings very well.

Adam

Yes, it's pretty obvious to most people...to be clear, there's nothing wrong at all with anybody choosing to use some different form of firearm for deer hunting...different noses and all that.

But what is disgusting is the common theme of excuses among 99% of those who use those other choices in what were clearly established as traditional muzzleloading seasons...to cheat by using technology to maximum advantage because it's easy...and then tries to rationalize / defend doing it on the most ridiculous justification...it fools no experienced, thinking adult what-so-ever.

If somebody wants to use a long range high tech scope sighted centerfire ballistic comparable rifle in traditional ML seasons they need to at least be man enough about it to just stand up and say so...all the other retoric is just self serving hot air to asuage their guilty consciences becase they KNOW they're cheating their way into traditional muzzleloading seasons just to get an extra week of deer hunting for more chances to fill their tags. At least honesty can be respected.

Next time one of them says they're not doing that, saying they're using all the new high tech stuff because "they like it", ask them if they also use it to hunt through the entire deer season, not just the special muzzleloading week, etc...and you'll get a new list of excuses why they don't do that.

By contrast, ask dedicated traditional muzzleloder hunters if they use their sidelocks right on during the whole deer season and you'll get a long list of people who do.

And the hot air in the high performance advocate's claim of "more reliable terminal ballsitics out to 200yds and beyond" is two fold:
1) all the wannbe deer hunters will try those shots and wound many, many animals without killing them mercifully on the spot...if they hit them at all.
2) Traditional muzzleloader hunters know better than to take shots like that...and don't WANT to in the first place...no challenge to it.

That's why several Remingtons & Leupolds lay oiled in their cases in my safe...anybody can kill a deer with a modern high powered scoped rifle like my Remingtons & Leupolds...and the modern hi tech space guns are no different.

I'm just glad all the great men of the early to mid 1900s who pioneered and championed the focus on our heritage, the early American muzzleloading era, got traditional muzzleloading seasons established in every state in the country, are not here to see how all their work is being bastardized by all the space gun technology...laser range finder scopes, modern smokeless powder, electronic ignition...simply unbelievable :rolleyes:

[rattus58]

Hi Roundball...

Although I agree with your letters ending, your arguments with these people is mostly wasted. Nobody cares that muzzleloader seasons were for the "challenged" muzzleloader or equipment. Nobody cares that you haven't lost a deer to a roundball, but that should have been more of your argument.

A muzzleloader is loaded through the muzzle. To argue otherwise makes us look foolish. I didn't read the article you mention, but it probably is not unlike many others I have read. These folks are driven much of time by sponsors, and Jim Chambers, Euroarms, Pedersoli, L&R and the like, just aren't out there paying the freight, and aren't getting the press.

Things are as they are. If someone challenges the roundball, you are not going to win the argument by saying roundballs are better than than an expandable sabot pushed along by smokeless powder at 2500 fps.

What has to be argued is that the expandable is NO BETTER than a properly placed roundball. What has to be argued is that traditionalists take hunting more seriously than do the moderns. What has to be argued are that roundballers apply themselves to be better woodsmen than do the moderns. What has to be argued is that the roundballer is more into the challenge of the hunt than are the moderns. What has to be argued is that the modern companies like T/C, Knight, and CVA are more into the instant gratification crowd than they are into "true" hunters.

Now you may get an argument about a lot of this from the modern muzzleloader shooter, but challenge them nonetheless. Modern muzzleloaders are here to stay, but so to is the traditional archer and bow. Expand the hype of getting close, being one with nature, being up to the challenge, not being a sissy, is a better approach in MY OPINION, than the whining I hear from most traditionalists about modern muzzleloaders. They are here to stay, so lets just expand our ranks instead.

You did do the right thing in responding. I wish that more of us would.

Aloha,

Tom :cool:

[rattus58]

Ok... Roundball... you have begun to lose your credibility with me. Cheat??? Give me a fricken break pal, modern muzzleloader shooters are not a nefarious bunch of cardsharks. They are folks that like to hunt like you and I, but now that you are stooping to the common whine I keep hearing from other traditionalists who are insecure and unprincipled means to me that you are just that. A whiner. Its folks like you that damage the cause.

[roundball]

Credibility??

That's laughable...it's always easy to spot the ones who sit on the sidelines and do nothing on their own...then take pot-shots after-the-fact at people who actually go to lengths to do things in a pro-active manner.

So save your phony self-rightous attitude for someone else, as you personal attack comments are wasted on me...they sound just like more of the typical attitude from inline advocates who want to use centerfire equivalent firearms in the traditional season for an extra week because they can't fill their tags during the regular gun seasons.

[rattus58]

You don't have a clue as to who or what I am Roundball, nor do you know anything about me or what I do for muzzleloading, kids, or hunting. So before you start mouthing off you should confirm your facts.

Secondly, credibility, it is an important part of the argument. I don't know anything about you, and in your first post, which I responded to, I gave you the benefit of the doubt Roundball, but when you start saying things like hunters with inlines are out to cheat, you brand yourself as a whiner who has no facts to support your positions.

I have been in these battles already Roundball, and when you start calling people self-righteous, you should look in the mirror. Face the facts Roundball... people don't give a damn about your whimpering about scopes, sabots, primers or smokeless, in fact people are tired of those lame overused pathetic wails from traditionalists.

I AM A TRADITIONAL HUNTER and the manner in which many traditionalists try to fight these battles is embarrassing, and your calling inliners cheaters is just more evidence of your insecurity and lack of a cogent argument. If you want to stand up for traditional hunting and equipment then do so, but your divisive comments are so typical that you have lost your audience, and yes, YOUR CREDIBILITY.

[skeet]

I'm glad there are people who believe strongly in their mode of sport. These arguments that the strict traditionalists are making carry over into the bow shooting fraternity also..traditional versus recurve versus the compound versus the 90% letoff compounds. Good grief guys...it is hunters we need ..not arguments. So if ya don't like the other modes of the sport..heck just shut up and as Rattus said..quit whining or arguing. Hunting seasons are great. Hunt your way and let others hunt theirs. As long as it is legal..it surely ain't cheating....no matter whether you like it or not. Heck I have never used an inline to hunt with but I do like shooting them. You know this isn't about just because it doesn't go the way you want...you will take your ball and go home. Just do it your way(either traditional or non) and let it go. These arguments belittle the whole sport. I hunted with a 50 caliber hawken with round balls(no scope but I did put a peep on it) even in the normal firearm season. The darn thing was accurate and effective. I also used a shotgun with sabot slugs when they became available. Much better than the old foster slugs as far as accuracy. So what should we do..go back to using shotguns with punkin balls again?? Some things DO make things more effective..if not better!:confused: :rolleyes: :D

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet... :)

You make several strong points that many seem to forget.

1) "it is hunters we need.. not arguments"

Exactly, the anti's don't care what mode we adopt, they are against all of us, and the arguments we have within our ranks about the equipment we use divides us and makes us easier to pick off... and guess who is likely to be the first to be picked off if we all don't stand together...

2) "Hunt your way and let others hunt theirs. As long as it is legal..it surely ain't cheating."

This has always bugged me. You hunted in the general firearms season with your muzzleloader... yeah... and who complained? You CHOSE what you wanted to hunt with. How is it that anyone is interfering with your choice when you get to hunt with your choice.

Modern muzzleloaders and traditional muzzleloaders are not in competition with each other so where is the cheat? For traditionalists to call those that chose a modern loader a cheater divides the ranks, is inaccurate when its legal, and is embarrassing to people like me who hunt traditional along with others who may choose something different.

Good points that I think more of us need to take to heart.

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[BILLY D.]

Ahem!!!!!!

Should I start the popcorn?

Couple of six packs might be nice too.


Bill

[rattus58]

damn.... and I gave up green beer.. hey green tea works... chilled with mint.. pretty boring for some... but popcorn's good... sashimi and octopus, and oysters with shoyo and wasabi... fried noodles.. ribs... hmmmmmmm LET'S PARTY..... :)

[BILLY D.]

OK. I've had everything else on the menu. whats shoyo and wasabi. Is wasabi a female kimosabe?

The green tea would be enhanced with a Little Vodka. I loved octopus. We had Phillipino Cooks on Guam and their recepies were fantastic. Wahoo was my favorite fish.

I have tried a million times to replicate their fried rice and mine does not taste as good as theirs. Maybe my taste buds have changed in almost 50 years.

Bill

[rattus58]

Wasabi is a very hot paste that is thinned with soy sauce... a hot mustard really but tinted green... and good with all hors devours or as we call it.. pupu's... :)

Wahoo is probably everyones favorite fish.. or possibly redfish we call opakapaka.. wahoo is called ono... means delicious... otherwise... :)

[BILLY D.]

Hey

Thanks. I love Hot Mustard on egg rolls. It's also good on that famous German delicacy, Head Cheese. Some folks like it with Poupon, but I think it's too sweet. At least to me it is. I used to love Head Cheese when I was a kid, not so much anymore. Something else strange, I absolutely despised Sweet Potatoes as a kid, now I could eat a whole can of them.

Funny how our likes and dislikes change.

The hors d'oeuvres made me laugh. One of my sisters used to pronounce that Whores Divorce. The rest of us kids would laugh at her. She was a meadow muffin anyway. I think she was adopted. She was the round peg in the square hole. A heart of gold but what a ditz. But I loved her anyway.

Bill

[rattus58]

Whores Divorce.... *grin*.. Ok.. I can have some fun with that... pupu's can create a pretty good visual too.... :D

What in the world is a meadow muffin... if I may be so bold... remember we are out on a lily pad here in the pacific with not too many meadows to find muffins in...

Oh... and sweet potato.. try them whole in a bowl .. of water cooked in a microwave or steamed till soft... butter, melted brown sugar for the calorie free

Hehe..

Aloha... :cool:

[roundball]

UPDATE:
Fur, Fish, and Game owner has exchanged a couple of good Emails.....he gets it.....acknowledged that they didn't edit the article close enough before it went to press.....said they've received many Emails about the article.

[rattus58]

Two things.... One you can retain your subscription now and two, why don't you ask him if you can post an opposing opinion piece about traditional firearms without getting into any "fairness" doctrine.

[BILLY D.]

rattus58

Meadow muffin AKA cow pie is a term we use to define someone who is not the brightest bulb in the pack. It is bovine excretement. It's usually used to kid someone.

It ranks right along with Dip Stick as a term to chide a person.

Bill

[rattus58]

I see... :)

Round here you hunt fer mushrooms round them "meadow" muffins ... and the lights might be dim but they're of many different colors.... :D

Aloha.. :cool:

[skeet]

Glad you got a response from them...and Rattus had a really great idea. See if ya can't write a little opposing argument for the magazine. If any magazine would be responsive to their readership I feel it would be FF&G. Most of the others are waaayyy to commercialized. Good luck with that idea.

Hey Billy...I thought any ol country boy knew what a meadow muffin was. And I'll bet you had to pay for that meadow muffin moniker more than one time from a sister. Mine always got even with me for those(supposed) slights! hehehe!

[BILLY D.]

Speaking of FFG, did you guys catch the Faux Pas on page 3 where the guy has a Remmy Model 30 that has a Mauser action?

Wrongo rancid bacon breath. The model 30 was built on an Enfield action. BAD BAD BAD.

Hey skeet

I ain't hardly a country boy, unless you want to call Cleveland Ohio country. When I was 6 we moved to Dayton, a little further
South but not really country either.

My sister passed away a few years ago, like to broke my heart, she was like a second Mom to me. We used to take jabs at one another like all siblings do. Even though we made fun of each other, we still loved one another. And if anybody from outside picked on one us there would soon be 10 others standing by your side to help out.

Bill

[skeet]

Sorry to hear of your sister's passing. I do understand the jabs and love. Your family sounds like the Puckett family back east. If you fought one..you fit 'em all...boys and girls. They were mountain folk..moved to the flat land. Hard fightin and drinkin. Once saw 2 of the older boys sitting in the middle of a little woods road..with a 10-15 gallon still...makin likker and they was both drunk as skunks. I just backed on outta there without 'em knowing. They were also armed with shotguns..and being drunk they might of shot me. They had that ol still on an old steel wheeled farm wagon with a steel plate bed. Hooked to an ol John Deere B tractor:D ..Both of them ol boys were older..maybe as old as 16 er so. No joke.

[Adam Helmer]

roundball & rattus,

Your dialog is interesting and is reflected here in PA among the bow hunters' associations.

The "Traditional" Bow Hunters are livid that crossbows are now legal to hunt with in PA, BUT NOT in the six-week archery deer season beginning October 1. Crossbow deer hunters must buy a Muzzleloader (Rifle) Tag and hunt in the October ML and after-Christmas ML deer seasons. Now that is silly, after all a crossbow is a bow.

I am a "Traditional" ML hunter and use flinters (mostly) and am glad we have a traditional after-Christmas deer season SPECIFICALLY for Flintlocks. Our week-long October deer season was made an "Any ML" about 2 or 3 years ago. Before that it was Flintlock Only in October. Now the inlines and scopes and all that are legal for the week in October. I wonder why? The PGC will not permit crossbows in the 6-week archery season beginning October 1, but permit inlines in the October ML season.

So, PGC did not "Offend" the verticle archers, but said "To hell" with the traditional muzzleloaders. So, Rattus, if there were to be fairness in PA, do you think crossbows should be allowed IN the 6-week long archery season?

I think you guys know that MLs, Inlines and modern rifles are legal in the two-week rifle deer after Thanksgiving in PA.

The point roundball makes is apparent in the PA archery deer season. The Traditional Archers got to keep their 6 weeks without any crossbows. If that is ok, they why not let the Traditional MLs folks have their seasons as well? The modern ML hunters can hunt the two-week rifle deer season with no fuss.

Adam

[rattus58]

Adam... first off a cross bow and an inline are in no way apples and apples... nor are they even apples and oranges.

A cross bow is not a bow in the language of the NBEF/NBEP. The definition of a bow by these organizations is that a bow is one that is hand held, hand drawn, and released with nothing attached to the bow that will allow the bow to be mechanically held in a drawn or cocked position.

Therefore, there is a legitimate exclusion to the use of a crossbow in a "bowhunting only" season. With muzzleloaders, all guns are loaded from the muzzle. There is little to differentiate the mechanics of an inline to that of the sidelock regardless of the rhetoric.

An inline is loaded from the muzzle. It has to be cocked in order to fire. It has to be aimed in order to hit something. It has a lock, a stock and a barrel. So far, what is there to separate them from a sidelock? Nothing that I can see.

There is nothing about an inline per se that should keep them from a muzzleloader season. Now if you have a flintlock only season, that is one thing. That would be like saying you have a longbow only season. That is quite legitimate. To say that you have an archery season would then include all forms of archery equipment, including the compound bow with its various forms of letoff.

Now I have a question for you Adam... What about this gun...

New for 2006, the Accusporter LTD PRO. All the great features of the Accusporter LTD flintlock, plus the addition of Double Set Triggers, and features a removable breech plug and EC Load System. Our gun combines a 1:28 twist Green Mountain Barrel with an L & R Lock which is hand fitted into a classic wood laminated stock. Added features include: a precision located lock assembly to assure a perfect fit between the lock and the barrel, all metal fiber optic sights and a touch hole alignment that is in the optimum position for reliable, fast ignition. The removable breech plug will make cleaning a breeze with the Accusporter LTD, and easy to remove those “stuck” loads. The new EC Load System makes loading conical and sabot style bullets easy. The relieved barrel bore allows easy insertion of the bullet into the barrel, and provides positive alignment when starting the bullet. A custom made, quality gun which is made in America. Available in right or left hand models and 24 & 28 inch barrel lengths. Five stock colors to choose from: Rosewood, Black Laminate, Brown Laminate, Green Laminate, and Dark Rosewood. Includes hard guncase.

Any problem with this gun?

Aloha... Tom :cool:

[skeet]

I have to disagree with ya on this one Rattus. The crossbow is exactly what Adam said. It is a bow. It shoots an arrow(bolt) and for deer it will have to use a broadhead point of some sort. The archery season is for a bow. A crossBOW will not really extend the range you are able to kill by any significant distance..and there are already bows with 90% letoff so when using a release it means you only have to hold an insignificant amount of pull. In fact some of these bows are not allowed if you want to register an animal in some of the record keeping organizations...or at least they weren't a few years ago. The archery season should be opened up for crossbows. In many states they are legal for people who are not able to pull a regular(or compound) bow.

Now as far as a muzzleloader...again.it isn't necessarily about what kind of muzzleloader you use. It is(and should be) about the extra hunting opportunities. When the muzzleloader seasons were established that is exactly all it was about...more hunting. The Pennsylvania season was set up to be for primitive(if I remember correctly) firearms. But still it was about more hunting...and most of the people who hunted with flinters were hunting just for that reason...more days afield. If they had allowed caplocks most would have used them...no matter what you feel is right. As stated before. What is the difference to you all? Just hunt your way and enjoy it! Nobody is "cheating" you...unless you cheat yourself by not enjoying the opportunity. Have fun whether it be with cossbow or inline, compound or flintlock

[BILLY D.]

Popcorn is now being served in the main seating area. BYOB. :D

I was going to bring up the subject of the Switch Barrel MZLDR but I figured someboby would put knuckle bumps all over my body.

Bill

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
I have to disagree with ya on this one Rattus. The crossbow is exactly what Adam said. It is a bow. It shoots an arrow(bolt) and for deer it will have to use a broadhead point of some sort. The archery season is for a bow. A crossBOW will not really extend the range you are able to kill by any significant distance..and there are already bows with 90% letoff so when using a release it means you only have to hold an insignificant amount of pull. In fact some of these bows are not allowed if you want to register an animal in some of the record keeping organizations...or at least they weren't a few years ago. The archery season should be opened up for crossbows. In many states they are legal for people who are not able to pull a regular(or compound) bow.

Now as far as a muzzleloader...again.it isn't necessarily about what kind of muzzleloader you use. It is(and should be) about the extra hunting opportunities. When the muzzleloader seasons were established that is exactly all it was about...more hunting. The Pennsylvania season was set up to be for primitive(if I remember correctly) firearms. But still it was about more hunting...and most of the people who hunted with flinters were hunting just for that reason...more days afield. If they had allowed caplocks most would have used them...no matter what you feel is right. As stated before. What is the difference to you all? Just hunt your way and enjoy it! Nobody is "cheating" you...unless you cheat yourself by not enjoying the opportunity. Have fun whether it be with cossbow or inline, compound or flintlock

Hi Skeet.... :)

Now no one here asked me what I thought about crossbows and archery together, but the National Bowhunting Education Program and the NBEF both describe the crossbow as not being a bow for the reasons stated earlier. For the Crossbow to be sent to the muzzleloader season is the appropriate place for it according to the NBEF/NBEP.

Now in the argument of crossbow versus bow, it can be shot with one hand, drawn with just the twist of the wrist, and aimed like a rifle. Most feel its more powerful than a bow, shoots faster than a typical bow, and is released with a squeeze of a trigger. There is only one similarity of a crossbow to a regular bow, and that is that the bolt is powered by the power stroke of drawn limbs. This is the reason for the crossbow being relegated to the firearms season in some states. Folks with legitimate disabilities using a crossbow is a different discussion.

Do I CARE if a crossbow is in or out of an archery season is another question again, and one that no one has asked of me. :)

Aloha.... Tom :cool:

[rattus58]

Adam... I missed something you said...

"The point roundball makes is apparent in the PA archery deer season. The Traditional Archers got to keep their 6 weeks without any crossbows. If that is ok, they why not let the Traditional MLs folks have their seasons as well? The modern ML hunters can hunt the two-week rifle deer season with no fuss."

For that matter Adam... why not make it just a single shot rifle season for all guns? At least that way they all have something in common, flintlock, caplock, inline, and centerfire. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than calling an inline a centerfire.... Dontcha think.... :D :D

[skeet]

Crossbows etc

The groups you are mentioning in your posts are just like the traditional vs inline camps. What is in their best interests? Everybody has their own ideas and story to tell. If a crossbow isn't in the group's best interests..then they'll tell ya it ain't a bow. Just that simple. The archery record keepers don't consider any bow that has 90% (or some such figure) letoff as not acceptable! Not much different than how the traditionalist BP hunters feel about inlines. Personally I like the recurve bows much more than the compound. Have all 3 and can tell ya that it is much faster to shoot any kind of manually drawn and held bow than a crossbow...and honestly in the hands of a good archer, in my opinion, more accurate than a crossbow. Because of a shoulder injury I can no longer pull a bow..but wish I could! Heck I even know a guy who used a spear with an atalatyl(sp) to bag a deer. I don't even know if it was legal but he did it. He could point the finger at all of us and say we are cheating. These are all moot questions anyway. As I said before...just hunt the way you want and leave others alone. When ya start pointing fingers and acting like the handgun vs shotgun vs rifle vs bow vs whatever crowds we all look like we are at odds with each other...when we should really be supporting each other instead. Makes more sense to me anyway

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Crossbows etc
The groups you are mentioning in your posts are just like the traditional vs inline camps. What is in their best interests? Everybody has their own ideas and story to tell. If a crossbow isn't in the group's best interests..then they'll tell ya it ain't a bow.

The Organizations I mentioned, which include the International Bowhunting Education Program governed by the National Bowhunting Education Foundation is hardly a "group" and hardly ones who have any kind of a so called "interest" or agenda.

There is not one organization that I am aware of that considers a crossbow to be a bow, and furthermore, don't know of any professional organization that considers the crossbow to be allowed in an ARCHERY ONLY AREA OR SEASON.

If you want to talk of further groups in comparison, then lets talk NRA and NMLRA. I teach for both (as well as I miaght add, the IBEP) and in the IBEP/NBEF crossbows are verbotten. In the NRA/NMLRA inlines are whether or not they are smokeless even, are all treated the same, and why not, they ALL HAVE THE SAME CHARACTERISTICS and loading procedures.

Aloha... :cool:

[skeet]

Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt. Who cares about semantics other than people with an axe to grind. Since I like recurve bows I feel that any compound is taking advantage of the game or whatever? No! I hunted with a caplock with a roundball...do I think using an inline is unfair? No! I really don't care...except for the fact that I think that people who whine and argue that someone using what they don't like is unfair. Unfair to whom..them or the game they hunt? The selfsame arguing and whining is divisive to the sport and the people who hunt. Oh and by the way...both the groups you mentioned are backed and funded in some greater or lesser degree by a group who defineitely has an agenda.. Manufacturers of archery equipment and others. I am sure the groups do some very good work in promoting bowhunting and safety...but they still have some agenda as do the NRA and the NMLRA...two other groups that do an awful lot for sportmen and hunting. In fact I feel that except for the NRA, the 2nd amendment may have been destroyed long ago. Also it seems since the middle ages the crossbow has been looked down on by many as it was a weapon of war that wasn't a yeoman's or gentleman's weapon. Somewhat in the same manner snipers have been looked down upon except in cases of necessity such as WWII and Vietnam

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet... just as an example then, what would be the interest of of the NBEF/IBEP in declaring that a bow is a hand held implement to be drawn by two hands without mechanical aid to keep the bow in the full drawn position (or cocked).

Why also should the crossbow be banned from general firearms seasons? What are the interests of hunters there?

Here in Hawaii, you cannot hunt with a crossbow unless on private land or disabled. Its only because of this that we don't allow the crossbow in the general firearms seasons where we allow you to always "hunt down", in other words, in the muzzleloader season, unless muzzleloader only, you can also hunt with a bow. In the general firearms season, you can hunt with anything you choose, but since we don't have a crossbow season, they are eliminated from use there too unless you are disabled.

However, back to bowhunting and crossbows. A bow has a specific definition. A cross bow does not fit in that definition from any angle, but it does fit in with muzzleloaders in more ways than it fits in with bows, so I don't see any problem there at all. I DO see a problem with trying to call an inline comparable to a centerfire, and with that logic, all single shot weapons including crossbows should be in the same season.

Aloha.. Tom :cool:

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt.

You might want to check out exactly what the NBEF really stands for before seeming to assume that they are a manufacturers mouthpiece. In addition, you might want to research the U.S. Sportsman's Alliance, they follow your sentiments.

And by the way, skeet, the original question here from Adam Helmer, who is conspicuously absent from this discussion is why shouldn't inline muzzleloaders be kept out of a muzzleloader season and used a crossbow as an example. I appreciate your support of Adam's contention that a crossbow is exactly like a bow, but the issue is really first, what is a bow or what isn't. Once we have answered that question, and in the issue of bowhunting and crossbows, the NBEF is generally the organization that governs state decisions on this matter along with the IHEA.

Archery Only Seasons generally if not always preclude the crossbow. If allowed for hunting, inclusion in a short range weapons season is appropriate as these permit muzzleloaders, shotguns, bows etc. For Pa to all this in the muzzleloader season is certainly appropriate according to the NBEF. Unless Adam, or anyone else, can come up with an "authoritative" citation from somewhere that equates the crossbow with a bow and arrow the question is accurately and appropriately answered by the actions of Pennsyvania.

But Adams questions conspicuously absent and postulization and apparent agreement with roundball that inlines belong in a centerfire season by trying to equate the relationship of crossbows to bows as being the same as the relationship of sidelocks to inlines deserves discussion, if for no other reason than its novelty, and I'd like to get his read on that RNC Sports flintlock.

Aloha... :cool:

[rattus58]

Originally posted by skeet
Both the organizations you mentioned must have an agenda or interest..or they wouldn't exist. The only thing I am stating is that the reason to have the bow or gun or muzzleloader seasons is to hunt.

You might want to check out exactly what the NBEF really stands for before seeming to assume that they are a manufacturers mouthpiece. In addition, you might want to research the U.S. Sportsman's Alliance, they follow your sentiments.

And by the way, skeet, the original question here from Adam Helmer, who is conspicuously absent from this discussion is why shouldn't inline muzzleloaders be kept out of a muzzleloader season and used a crossbow as an example. I appreciate your support of Adam's contention that a crossbow is exactly like a bow, but the issue is really first, what is a bow or what isn't. Once we have answered that question, and in the issue of bowhunting and crossbows, the NBEF is generally the organization that governs state decisions on this matter along with the IHEA.

Archery Only Seasons generally if not always preclude the crossbow. If allowed for hunting, inclusion in a short range weapons season is appropriate as these permit muzzleloaders, shotguns, bows etc. For Pa to allow this in the muzzleloader season is certainly appropriate according to the NBEF. Unless Adam, or anyone else, can come up with an "authoritative" citation from somewhere that equates the crossbow with a bow and arrow the question is accurately and appropriately answered by the actions of Pennsyvania.

But Adams questions conspicuously absent and postulization and apparent agreement with roundball that inlines belong in a centerfire season by trying to equate the relationship of crossbows to bows as being the same as the relationship of sidelocks to inlines deserves discussion, if for no other reason than its novelty, and I'd like to get his read on that RNC Sports flintlock.

If the inline belongs in the general season, then by extension, all muzzleloaders, flintlock, caplock, inline and crossbows should be in a single shot weapons seasons.

Aloha... :cool:

[skeet]

But he is not the only one to feel that muzzleloader season should only be for traditional arms. It just happens to be a bigger deal in Pa because of the original season being flintlock only. But it is a specious argument at best as it seems as though the average joe just wants to be able to hunt.
I did check the site for the NBEF and sure enough some(all listed ones) of the sponsors and contributors was...manufacturers of archery equipment, archery magazines and such things as camouflage etc. Not going to argue the point...but there is no reason to have an organization unless they have an agenda. So they don't acknowledge the fact that crossbows are used hunting. Personally I feel they should be used in the archery seasons as they have no more range than a conventional bow or compound....and are usually used by people with handicaps that don't allow shooting any conventional type of bow. They really can't compete with even a flintlock on an equal basis...and I really don't feel that they can even really compete with any type of normal hunting bow. They surely are a bit more awkward to carry in the woods. Or they seem so to me. Heck the average shot at a deer in the eastern woods is usually less than 50 yds(all firearms seasons) so why the big argument over inlines and sidelock guns... A dead deer is just as dead either way.
Now as far as the issue with the advertisers of the NBEF...I really don't care one way or the other. But after being in the gun(and bow) business for all those years.. Commercial entities are not either sponsoring or contributing unless their agenda is being addressed by the recipient of their largess. A commercial contributor's agenda is to make money..and they support those organizations to advertise themselves and their wares. Also to promote the sport that they make money from. Its not out of the kindness of their hearts..it is a commercial decision to help make money. No more..no less. There is really no way to argue that point:confused: oh and to state that a crossbow should be put into a firearm season even though it is a muzzloader season just doesn't equate. Although the crossbow isn't as old as the long bow..it still throws a stick with a point on it by the use of stored energy exactly identical to the energy stored by any type of conventional bow in use today. Just because the string is released by the pull of a trigger(like releases used so much today?) doesn't make it the equal of a firearm and doesn't make it superior to any other type of bow.

[rattus58]

Hi Skeet :)

Are you referring to this page? NBEF SPONSORS PAGE (http://www.nbef.org/read.cfm?category=sponsors) Yes we all have an interest in Bowhunting Education, and the sponsors you mention indeed do support NBEF, but I would hardly call this a mouthpiece for manufacturers and Easton makes bolts for crossbows... probably the most notable in fact... :)

However, you make a comment that I have begun to hear as a common lament... and that is the word compete... you used it when you said " Personally I feel they should be used in the archery seasons as they have no more range than a conventional bow or compound....and are usually used by people with handicaps that don't allow shooting any conventional type of bow. They really can't compete with even a flintlock on an equal basis...and I really don't feel that they can even really compete with any type of normal hunting bow"

Hawaii allows crossbows for the disabled. We're going to move to allow crossbows in the muzzleloading and other firearms seasons next year.

However, the performance of the crossbow is not the issue, nor do I think that it is relevant. What is relevant is what is your hunting season. Is it a general hunting season allowing all forms hunting equipment or is it a defined season.

If it is defined, then you have to fit the definition. Archery season, you fit the definition of archery equipment. Crossbows... They don't fit the definition of bow. Therefore they are allowed in many firearms seasons. Really that is the end of the story.

Muzzleloaders... hmmmm now what is a muzzleloader? Must be loaded from the muzzle. Fine and good. Is there anything else? No. So how does an inline differ from a caplock? It doesn't So if it doesn't differ from a caplock, how can one say it belongs in the general firearms season. They can't.

Now if you are saying you have a flintlock only season, then fine, that meets the definition.. nothing else is allowed. A muzzleloader season on the other hand, is and rightfully should be opened to ALL muzzleloaders.

But back to competition... how are these guns and such... competing? When you go hunting, are you competing with someone? What are the rules? What are the prizes? Is the competition organized.. or on a gentlemans agreement? I thought that hunter chose his equipment to hunt the way he wanted to hunt? If you accept the flintlock, then you are choosing to accept those perceived limitations of the flintlock. Same with the caplock, and the same with the inline. Anyone who has shot and hunted with both types of equipment can easily confirm that an inline has nothing over a caplock. Put the same bullet in an inline as you'd put in a caplock and what do you have? Similar if not identical performance.

Oh.... yes... fast twist... 150 grain loads... etc etc.... Have you checked out the RNC Flintlock.... :D

Oh... Sabots, Scopes, pellets and smokeless ... guess what... equally at home in either sidelock or inline.. and these are not the rifle... the rifle with or without, is still a muzzleloader.

Aloha... :cool:

[Dom]

Holy Smokepole. Hey Billy, pass the popcorn! :cool:

Just wanted to let you's all know that I've enjoyed reading this thread, some food for thought from all angles. In this regard I lean towards a muzzleloader meaning all from the muzzle and not making a distinction between flint, cap, or in-line. Why? I think you's have defined that answer already. Same with bows, though I don't know what the answer is for classifying a crossbow.

I think the answer to these questions is exactly how do you want to hunt? If you are a traditionalist, then stick to your guns and use a flintlock, even if all types MZ are allowed. If you use a stick bow, then hunt that way, even if compounds are allowed, or crossbows for that matter.

You's are actually lucky, in Germany, all bow hunting is against the law.

In this sense, I think it better to stick together rather than tear apart the different types of hunting. You just can't make special seasons for each and every different type of weapons. Pretty soon we'd have a spearing season, hey Rattus, I think you already got one of those in Hawaii?? ;)

In life, you win some and lose some. Enjoy it, because it'll end one day, and sooner than some of us think or want it to. There's bigger fish in the sea to worry about, let's be thankful for what we got, Waidmannsheil, Dom.

[rattus58]

Hi Dom,

Germany.... when you have the chance, please pass on a little about the hunting there.

Yes here in Hawaii we have a lot of choices for hunting including the spear. You don't see too much of it anymore, but during the second world war, that was the only way you could go hunting for many people as they confiscated all weapons from households of everyone. So much for second amendment with the military.

I have seen people with atlatls here as well, but I have not actually seen any harvest from one.

We have very liberal almost all year round archery hunting in many areas here in Hawaii, same as with dogs for pigs.

Aloha.... :cool:

[Skinny Shooter]

My head is spinning trying to read and comprehend everything in this thread. :D
Here in Pa, our Flintlock (read primitive) season was made for a group of traditionalists to hunt after the orange army left the woods with their more modern weapons. Some of these folks dressed the part from the colonial past and are re-enactors as am I. During that season the woods are quiet and the sense of solitude is something you can't get during any other deer season. Not to mention more safe from stray bullets.
Now crossbows are allowed which I disagree with in principle. They already can be used in the early muzzleloader season and rifle season. During both Archery seasons, crossbows are also allowed in 3 WMU's
Why put them in the flintlock season? It may be part of the PGC's idea of exterminating a vast portion of our Doe population to "control" their numbers.

In-lines may load from the muzzle but the comparison mostly ends there. They are an updated caplock so to speak and hence have been modernized.
When was the last time anyone heard someone using an inline with PRB. I've never heard of it, hunters use the updated more modern projectiles.
In-lines can be used in the early muzzleloader season and rifle seasons. Good for them.
But a precedent has been set when crossbows were allowed in the flintlock season. It won't be long till every season is called "Anything Goes" season.

There are numerous opportunities throught fall and early winter to hunt deer before Flintlock rolls around.
Sure hope the PGC recognizes that some people value their heritage and hunting similiar to our ancestors.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I asked you in my prior post of May 30, 2007, about paragraph 4,"Do you think crossbows should be legal in the 6-week PA archery deer season?" I think the crossbow is a bow and should be permitted in the archery deer season. A crossbow is more akin to a bow than a muzzleloader, in my view; not many muzzleloaders shoot arrows (bolts). Also, both are short-range arms compared to a rifled flinter.

As for your flintlock question, my view is that if it is LEGAL in our (PA) after-Christmas deer season, then use it.

We have distinct seasons here and I am glad we have the several weeks after Christmas for Flintlock arms, only.

Adam

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I see you like definitions and say all muzzleloaders should be allowed in the same season because they load from the muzzle. Well, there are differences more apparent that your reasons for claiming "A crossbow is not a bow." You think a crossbow is properly included in muzzleloader seasons.

I appreciate you good natured banter here and hope you are not offended by my analogies.

A crossbow is a bow like any other bow in more ways than your "merely loading from the muzzle" criteria you apply to flintlocks, inlines, and caplocks. First, both verticle bows and crossbows use arrows, broadheads, the arrow (bolt) is propelled by a string, has fletchings and nockts. Both are short-range arms and use limbs to store the propulsion force for the arrows. With ALL those SIMILARITIES, you still refuse to consider the crossbow a bow? Why?

I still maintain that crossbows in PA belong in the 6-week archery deer season and should not require the user to buy a muzzleloader tag.

I also maintain that Traditional muzzleloader seasons are specifically for traditional arms. We used to have a week traditional ML in October, but that is now open to any ML.

The original question was about inlines and they have their place in the modern rifle season, in my opinion which I express to the PGC.

Be well,

Adam

[skeet]

Seems to me that Rattus ignores all the similarities between the crossbow and the conventional bow just because it doesn't suit him. Not dissing him...but the facts speak for themselves. He is into the NBEF and their definition doesn't include the crossbow...so it has to be some other kind of implement. It surely isn't any kind of firearm. He also ignores the corporate sponsorship issue by just saying it isn't pertinent, I guess. Maybe he doesn't understand sponsorship ideas..although I am sure he does as he writes and argues well. Except for ignoring the truth about bows and how they all shoot as you so aptly described.

Rattus, I am sure you realize, when you read most of the hunting/fishing/archery/gun magazines, that the advertisers in the magazines get pretty good write ups on their products. That is hardcore sponsorship and advertising. The sponsorship of organizations such as the NBEF is softcore...but it pushes the company's agenda just the same. Come on man. It is apparent you aren't stupid...even if you don't accept the truth in some matters. And I still agree with you that there is really NO difference between muzzleloaders. Heck for all intents and purposes the Sharps muzzleloaders were inlines..so were Colt Revolving rifles. Seems to me that the traditional muzzleloader users feel they are competing(that word again) with inline shooters and they must feel they or the arms they carry are inferior. I can tell ya one thng..if ol Jim Bridger had a chance to use one of the newer style inlines way back in the 1830 or 40 era..He woulda jumped on it like a duck on a junebug!

[Adam Helmer]

skeet,

I was at a meeting a while back and a bowhunter organization guy started speaking about why crossbows require being classified with muzzleloaders. He went on about how there was NO similiarity with compounds, recurves, etc. and thus crossbows should be listed with muzzleloaders.

An old guy stood up and asked if the crossbows use a #209 cap or a #11 cap or 5 grains of 4F priming powder in their "pans", being muzzleloaders and all? The entire room burst out laughing and the bow guy did not reply.

I think there IS a difference between muzzleloaders. Yes, all load from the muzzle, but a day in hard rain with a flintlock is far less reliable for the shot than a #11 cap or a #209 shotgun primer in a closed-bolt inline. I have hunted with them all and have an opinion on which is the more reliable in inclement weather.

Adam

[skeet]

I liked that alot. That guy cut the argument to the quick for certain. And of course a crossbow is a bow in all of the important aspects. Anyone that argues otherwise surely has some type of bias towards them. I also know there is a big difference in the muzzleloaders reliabilities. Of course a flinter will not be as reliable in bad weather. Had one and it was a bear to use. I also know the reasons that the traditionalists in Pa feel the way they do...but you have to admit that the season wasn't set up just to provide muzzleloading hunters a chance to use their flintlocks..It was set up so people could have another season to hunt deer. The state, in it's ignorance, decided that the hunters had to use a Flinter...almost all the other states seasons were set up to use any muzzleloader. There were inline rifles way back in the 19th century...as well as underhammer rifles. The whole reason for the season is to be able to hunt. Let the traditionalists do it their way and the modernists do it theirs. The differences really aren't all the much different than the bow hunting crowds..longbows to recurves(with sights) to compounds with sights and releases, overdraws etc and the ultra modern 90% let offs with all the bells and whistles. Still though at the end of the day...a muzzleloader is just that..a muzzleloader...and a bow is a bow as long as it throws a stick with a string using limbs. And again...if the ol mountain men had the chance to use a modern inline...they woulda jumped at the chance without lookin back. Now days all the different kinds of primitive (even inlines) are used for a HUNTING season.

BTW Adam, I have talked to a lot of people who hunt with the flintlocks in Pa. It comes out that a lot of them seem to be mad over the fact that the flinter season is late and all the "best" deer are gone. I've actually heard the same arguments in Md from the firearm hunters...complaining that most of the big deer are killed earlier by the bow hunters and the early muzzloader season!:rolleyes: And to answer the last statement you made about reliability in bad weather just don't hunt in a hard rain...or if able to..use a caplock or inline when that type of day pops up. Admit that you won't hunt any differently..you'll just use a more efficient arm for the conditions. And I'll bet if you do bag a deer...it won't be at any different range than normal...you are after all an ethical hunter! I've read your posts and can tell.:D

[rattus58]

I love the way skeet and Adam Helmer like to think for me. They have neatly put me into THEIR OWN PERCEPTIONS of things because I might in fact disagree with them, which I have yet to state my own preference because no one has asked it.

Further, I like that because Easton Aluminum, some couple of magazines and a camo manufacturer SUPPORT BOWHUNTER EDUCATION, that all of a sudden there is a conspiracy. I wish people would stick to the facts instead of making **** up.

For the record... and its really apparent that neither SKEET nor ADAM HELMER actually did any research into the NBEF or IHEA nor the sportsman's alliance, yet they have both attributed to me positions that neither can point to in that no one has asked me what my position is on any of this, and that the positions that I have stated are those of the organizations responsible for making the recommendations to most if not ALL game departments.

It doesn't matter WHAT YOU THINK Adam in that a crossbow is more bow than muzzleloader. Nice try. I think that both you and SKEET should do some research first.

Since when can a bow be fired with one hand? Since when can you draw a bow with a crank without expending more than just a few ounces of energy? Since when can a bow be held indefinitely without mechanical aid... These are the criteria for an archery season in most if not ALL states.

Two. You say that a muzzleloader doesn't shoot a bolt... that is only because you would choose not to. I have seen more than one ramrod make it downrange... some with phenomenal accuracy as well.

A cross bow is powered by bow limbs. That's true. But that doesn't by itself make it a bow an arrow by definition. It remains cocked mechanically. So to does your muzzleloader. A bow, by definition requires two hands.. one to hold the bow, and the other to draw. A bow by definition may not use any mechanical aid to maintain full draw. That is the definition of a bow. No matter how much one tries to bastardize this with ones own yearnings, you have to lobby the game departments, the NBEF and the IHEA in order to change the definition... no matter how much you want it to be so.

Because a crossbow can be cocked and held mechanically, and for some reason actually looks more like a firearm than a bow to most observers, and has the characteristics of a firearm which the bow does not, game departments relegate it to a firearms season. That really is the end of the story.

Getting back to the reliability factors between muzzleloaders... and getting back to the quote one of you said about patched round balls not being fired out of an inline, never mind that the statement itself is flawed, what does that have to do with anything?

A crossbow and a bow have really no similarities other than the bow limbs and theoretically the bolt. Its not drawn the same, fired the same, not carried in the field the same, and looks more like a rifle to the untrained eye and if one is without counsel asked... does this look more like a bow and arrow or a rifle.. will in well over half the time (probably better than than 80% is more likely) will tell you a crossbow looks like a rifle.

So.. game departments wanted to accomodate, put the crossbow in with muzzleloaders or short range weapons... what is the problem with that?

Muzzleloaders... they ALL load from the muzzle do they not?

They all require a separate source of ignition do they not?

They all have locks, stocks and barrels... do they not? Tell me.. what makes the inline different in function than a flintlock or caplock?

I say again... if a crossbow can be equated with a bow by you folks, then a flintlock should be equated with a single shot centerfire... and it is a much more related piece of equipment.

And lastly... before you both start attributing things to me, you better ask me first. Something both of you seem to have ignored, though I repeatedly referenced that fact earlier... obviously you two are too busy making up my mind for me.

Aloha... :cool:

[Skinny Shooter]

Skeet, the way I understand it, Flintlock season was set-up just so traditionalists (the guys who lobbied the PGC for that opportunity) can use their flintlocks. Not for just another opportunity to hunt.
If that were the case, I suspect the PGC would have long ago diluted the flintlock-only regulation with other types of arms to hunt with.
I get that info from Chuck Dixon at Dixon's Muzzleloading Shop. He's pretty much in the know when it comes to that stuff.

Archery season encompasses all types of archery equipment. It is not just a recurve or compound season.
Our Flintlock season is just that, flintlocks only. Or it used to be.
The early season is called muzzleloader season and almost anything goes...

There was a time when I wished for a flintlock season that was during warmer weather and had more deer opportunities. But then began to realize it was all about the experience, not just the killing. But that's just my opinion. :)
The after-Christmas season is just fine now because we mostly have the woods to ourselves.

As to bad weather and reliability of a flinter, well that's the mystique of it all. :)

[rattus58]

Hi Skinny... That is where distinctions are properly made.

FLintlock Only seasons, Black Powder Only, seasons, like Idaho tried recently... with there visible or exposed rotating hammer provisions... and such...

But neither Adam nor anyone else has answered me about the availablility of the RNC Accusporter Flintlock... a custom flinter with a soupled up engine.... :) for the PA seasons... :)

Aloha... :D :cool:

[skeet]

The way I understand the Pa season for flinters was this way. If I remember correctly there was no muzzleloader season at all when the season was set up. The PGC set up a season at the behest of muzzle loading afficianados..not flintlock people per se. And the PGC set it up with input from many sources but eventually deciding on flinters only either from a lack of good information as to what primitive firearms were or from a somewhat vindictive attitude because the idea had not come from the PGC itself but was foisted on it by someone else. Other states at the time were setting up muzzleloader seasons. The PGC(and you know how controlling they have always been) almost had to do a season for muzzleloaders...and vindictively set it up for Flinters only...thinking to keep the numbers of hunters to a lower level. Didn't seem to work as the ol boys went to work what they had to use with vigor. I'm really proud of 'em for that. The PGC still has a bit too much control without listening to the average joe hunter. I hear the rumblings from Pa...from places other than this board. Even Petey has decried the things that the board has done to hurt the deer population in Pa. As far as changing the rules on the flintlock only seaon..you are correct in stating that the flintlock users have kept the season they prefer. But even the PGC saw the handwriting on the wall as there were no percussion arms allowed at one time. That changed obviously in the not so distant past...mainly because of public pressure. The way the season is now at least covers the basics of both groups

Rattus..I attribute nothing to you. Your distinctions speak for themselves. I did not state there is any great conspiracy among the bow hunting crowds or the NBEF or any other organization. You can point to the things that make a crossbow so different than a conventional bow...but fail to miss the differences in muzzleloading firearms. It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions. Expand the parameters of your mind and see that the main and really only thing that matters in all my discussion here is that no matter what kind of arm you choose to use.... It's all about the hunting opportunity to me. Flame away all y'all want but I'm done with this thread. As with the anti gun and anti hunting crowds...you can't argue with a closed mind. No matter how large or how small:eek:

[rattus58]

Ok... well first of all Skeet... lets look at what you have said right here... Rattus..I attribute nothing to you. Your distinctions speak for themselves. I did not state there is any great conspiracy among the bow hunting crowds or the NBEF or any other organization. You can point to the things that make a crossbow so different than a conventional bow...but fail to miss the differences in muzzleloading firearms. It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions. Expand the parameters of your mind and see that the main and really only thing that matters in all my discussion here is that no matter what kind of arm you choose to use.... It's all about the hunting opportunity to me. Flame away all y'all want but I'm done with this thread. As with the anti gun and anti hunting crowds...you can't argue with a closed mind. No matter how large or how small"

You say... "Your" distinctions speak for themselves. Where in this thread ANYWHERE Skeet have I mentioned, as you and Adam have repeatedly, ever said that IN MY OPINION such and such was so.... NO WHERE PAL... I have repeatedly asked you to ask my opinion, you don't, and you don't even in this last post... You are ASSUMING way to much... and when you ASSume things it makes you look foolish especially when you keep doing it over and over.

Oh... the conspiracy.... listen to you.... If you didn't think it was such a big deal, why do you bring up over and over? Do you in fact Skeet EVEN KNOW what the NBEF and the IHEA really are?

You go on again to say that " It seems the distinctions are missed by you because the parameters don't meet your preconcieved notions". What are MY PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS Skeet? Here you are ASSuming again, and you know what that produces don't you... "global warming".. shame on you.

I'm not doing any flaming Skeet, and when you talk about a closed mind, its OBVIOUS that yours is like a steel trap. Everything actually that you have accused me of Skeet is something that you seem to fabricate in your own mind... SO IN THE INTEREST OF ACCURACY SKEET before you run off like a spoilt child, just point out a couple of comments where I have said that any of this is MY OPINION? Where is anything I have published or written here not directly attributed to the NBEF, IHEA, NBEP? These are facts Skeet... and most if not ALL game departments get their insights from these organizations when it comes to ARCHERY EQUIPMENT.. including crossbows.

Oh... back to conspiracy... none of the sponsors of BOWHUNTING EDUCATION have EVER in my limited experience, ever spoke out against a crossbow. Easton is the preeminent manufacture of bolts for the cross bow. Bowsite and the other mags and the camo place... have never in my understanding, which of course is much more limited than yours is as I don't have your hunting experience or expertise, but I have never read anything anywhere against crossbows by those folks... but you OBVIOUSLY have a much wider view than I.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

PLEASE reread my posts to you of June 1, 2007. I asked you questions you have continued to ignore. Ok, that is fine. You keep saying, "No one asked me my opinion." Ok, so reread the QUESTIONS, please?

Rest assured I NEVER have tried to "think for you." Please give me specifics per you last post. Send me a PM, if you have ANY ISSUES with me or other posters. If you cannot be conversational, then perhaps you need to take a break as you really seem to be quite emotional on this subject.

I think your biggest problem is your bowhunter organization's ARTIFICIAL definition of crossbows as "Muzzleloaders." I have seen it here in PA where the Bowhunters are LIVID that crossbows are allowed in their CHERISHED 6-week archery season. Well, DISABLED PA hunters may use crossbows in archery season and there are 3 (urban) PA WMUs that permit crossbows.

You are AGAIN in error when you just stated, "Neither Adam nor anyone else has answered me about the availability of the RNC Accusporter Flintlock for the PA seasons." PLEASE READ MY POST OF JUNE 1, 2007 5:10 P.M. I refer you back to that post where I stated, "As for your flintlock question, my view is if it is LEGAL in our (PA) after-Christmas season , then use it." Did you read that post? If so, why DO you continue to post "no one answered my question about the Accusporter Flintlock?" Do you want an answer or a continuing argument? Do you have reading comprehension?

I request you go back and reread posts BEFORE you go off "half-cocked" and slam me or other posters on this site! Your next slam on me or other posters will not be tolerated! I really think you need to "chill out" a bit. Send me a PM and I will chat with you off line, IF there is a need. You have been given complete responses that only seem to further fuel your ire, as I see your past posts. Do you have a problem with reading comprehension because you keep repeating questions already answered? I hope you do not have a problem with contray opinions by other posters. This is a CHAT site where ALL opinions are aired. Please give it another try. If you cannot chat, please send me a PM with the reasons therefor.
Aloha

Adam

[rattus58]

Adam... the NBEF IS NOT MY ORGANIZATION... again... you are reading into things... I TEACH BOWHUNTING EDUCATION. I teach Hunter Education. I am also an NRA instructor in rifle, pistol, shotgun and muzzleloader, I am an NMLRA Field Representative and Instructor. These organizations have their own rules and regulations. They are NOT MINE. I am in the process of giving YOU and anyone else who would care to look at it... MY OPINIONS ON JUST THAT QUESTION OF YOURS... do I think crossbows should be in the Pennsylvania Archery Season. But the short story is, and the Pennsylvania FISH AND GAME looked to the NBEF most likely, Crossbows are permitted in Pennsylvania in several units apparently during the archery season from what I read online from the Pa website, but might require a muzzleloader tag BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A CROSSBOW TAG PRINTED UP. They consider the crossbow separate from the bow.

Do I care Adam.... No I don't. Should you care... well maybe you should.. it apparently is your state... not mine.

Do I care if Crossbows are legal in my state? NO I don't... and I don't care either if they are legal in the Archery Season. They are not legal to hunt with in Hawaii unless you are disabled. We are trying to change that next year. If it means they start being in the firearms seasons... that's ok by me... whatever .. they are a valid hunting implement and should be allowed somewhere.

It looks like the only place me an skeet agree over the long run, is that hunting is a personal thing. You are picking the arm you hunt with. What anyone else hunts with is IRRELEVANT.

If I missed reading one of your posts in this thread, I apologize... I didn't see it. I don't like being MISCHARACTERIZED either.

For the rest of this feel free to look to a new thread I started of MY OPINIONS... that will leave no doubts as to my OPINIONS.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

I do not understand why you posted in your last post, "Adam the NBEF IS NOT MY ORGANIZATION...again, you are reading into things." WHAT IS YOUR REASON FOR THIS ERROR? What was the date and time I allegedly posted that?

WHEN have I EVER said the NBEF was YOUR organization? Also, there is NO PA Fish&Game as you posted.

I think you really need to take a "Time Out." This was not a rational post by you, in my humble opinion.

Aloha

Adam

[rattus58]

Originally posted by Adam Helmer
rattus58,

I do not understand why you posted in your recent post, "Adam the NBEF IS NOT MY ORGANIZATION...again, you are reading into things."

RATTUS58: I CHALLENGE YOU to show me in any post ON THIS SITE where I ever posted "NBEF!" I think your "Opression Psychosis" has gone far enough!

Please do not ever attribute anything to me in future,or I shall do my Moderator duty! Comprehende? You have erred this time, Big Time!

Aloha!

Adam

RIGHT HERE ADAM.... I think your biggest problem is your bowhunter organization's ARTIFICIAL definition crossbows as "Muzzleloaders."

They don't classify them as muzzleloaders Adam... they say... if you'd research it, that crossbows belong in a firearms season. Anything else ADAM, is YOUR OPINION. I'm at least quoting the positions of these organizations... and your use of the word YOUR is in fact attributed to me and in fact I at least adam am man enough to admit a mistake.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

Ok, so where are your answers to my prior posts?

So, what "mistake are you admitting to?"

We all have opinions and express them freely here. Our free exchange of ideas is good for us all.

Adam

[rattus58]

Hi Adam.... :) Here is the post I made earlier

"If I missed reading one of your posts in this thread, I apologize... I didn't see it. I don't like being MISCHARACTERIZED either."

From a previous post.. just like yours Adam... and Waffle... I don't ever waffle.

Further.. I stick to facts.. and the facts that I post are readily available to anyone because I cite the authorities or link to them.

As to the crossbow question Adam... Its not that I don't ascribe to the definition, its that the NBEF and IHEA don't ascribe to the definition. Can't you get that yet. It's not up to me.

The PA game commission and the game commissions of a lot of other states don't AGREE WITH YOU or your characterization of a crossbow being a bow... Those states that do allow crossbows... and there are a lot of them... crossbow seasons (http://www.huntersfriend.com/crossbows/crossbow-state-regulations.htm) will indicate that crossbows just are not considered bows... but many states will allow them in general or other firearms seasons, like muzzleloader. This is typical, not extraordinary. I'm trying to get crossbows legal here in Hawaii in any manner, so far they are ONLY legal for disabled.. and if it means we get it in muzzleloader or general firearms... Hallelujah.. its a start.

[Adam Helmer]

rattus58,

Many thanks for all your prior input. I now have a personal request: Predicated on all your obvious knowledge, may we please return to discussion of Traditional Muzzleloaders?

I just put the last of my favorite ML arms on the horizonal rack in the Gun Room upstairs. I liked the display so much, I took the .54 Hawken flinter out back and shot 50 rounds at the far gong here on the farm.

I understand you like the older arms, so let us now chat about them all.

Be well.

Adam