federal Black cloud

[kt]

a buddy of mine who is way overly excited for the season is making an attempt to buy anything that says on it "new for '07" in doing so he bought a box of federals new black cloud ammo. about 25 bucks a box not terrible for waterfowl loads. they look funny, some of the pellets are every day steel, while others look like saturn, round with a little belt on them that supposedly cuts on contact. now i dont know about that, as i was saying another cool feature the is the wad, it is designed to petal backwards instead of mushrooming from the top, that could be good
i do think those little rings on the shot could make pellets like little curve balls, but i am sure they figured it out.
i think steel is still steel
kt

[skeet]

I saw the video for the black cloud stuff...and I feel as you do. Steel is still just steel...and mostly useless. I wish the feds would do a study on the losses due to using steel shot as opposed to either lead or some of the new hi tech stuff. I'll bet the loss from lead ingestion would be less than the loss from crippling using steel...but being as that isn't what the PC people want to hear...it'll never be done! I really feel in a few years they will not allow lead for doves either. and then downhill from there.

[TreeDoc]

A total ban on lead is in the works here in California and coming to a neighborhood near you.....you're welcome!

It's starting with some feel good legislation with minimal science to back it. It is being done to protect the endangered California Condor from "supposedly" ingesting lead fragments left in gutpiles of harvested game. Personally, I call Bull****! Why aren't the Turkey Vultures dropping like flies from excessive lead ingestion? There are certainly more of them around than Condors and they have the same damned diet!

I'm convinced that Condors are just not destined for this world. If there is a 3 tablespoon antifreeze spill on a turnout in the backcountry, the stupid Condor will find it and drink it. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the rant, guys, but it's in the works and you know it will just roll to the east from the left coast. Give it a little time.

[skeet]

Have to agree with you. Of course the PC people that live in Calipornia seem to drive what happens in the rest of the country. Sorry you have to live in the land of fruits and nuts. But soon the state will only be made up of the PC elite and mexicans. All the rest of the thinking people are moving out of Calipornia to ANYWHERE else. BTW do you hire mexican workers in your tree biz? Not dissing ya..just wondering if you can find others that want to work!!:confused:

[kt]

well, i went out and bought a box of this stuff i shoot federal steel any how, but i figure lets see what it does, patterns on paper nicely. can it be worst than fasteel or sportsman steel? and it is priced right with normal federal BB 3 inchers.
Oh and by the way is it just me or are the huntchat waterfowlers not as psyched as we normally are a week before the season, i know its september geese only but they are flying every where i look and i am ready to knock them down.
kt

[fabsroman]

I just cannot get excited about September goose season anymore. It is just too hot and the geese are way too stupid. I think I would rather spend time shooting clays versus September geese.

Dove season starts September 1 and it is hard for me to get excited about that considering my dad's scouting report from this evening is that he saw all of 5 doves at the field between 4:00 and 5:00 tonight.

Now, I need to look for somewhere to hunt ducks this year. I am meeting with two new clients tomorrow, one of which is an avid waterfowler and the other who is a taxidermist and hunter.

[DelDuck]

kt I know I have not gotten excited about hunting yet. Starting to get the itch but I have been so busy getting my pasture and run in done so I can get my horses home I just have not hand much time for anything else. But I was able to get me electric fence done last night, so I brought them home around 7:30 last night.:D
All I have left to do is paper and shingle the roof and paint the run in. I have not gotten my licence yet, I spect I'll get them today or tomorrow, because I plan on deer hunting Sat.. None of the fields I can hunt geese are cut yet, but I really need to get a deer in the freezer fast, I am out of deer meat and I am really wanting some good deer steaks.

[kt]

wow del you do have your plate full of work right now. i am in the same boat a friend said to me earlier this week, "where are you going saturday" i thought "for what" been working so much that is all i do, but you cant hunt without money i suppose. i am a little nervous, all my huntable fields are tall and green, i found one cut grass field that is on a co-op, some years i hunt by myself in that township, other years it is first come first serve. so that sux, as for doves, the few i see are not worth the sweat and bugs and poison ivy

[grayghost]

I tried BC on Snow Geese recently. I couldn't tell any difference between it and steel. At $20+ per box, I'll stay with regular Kent or Winchester steel. I'm with skeet on steel however. grayghost

[fabsroman]

I tried black cloud on canadian geese this year and it sucks. I'll agree that it isn't any better than steel. Just another hoax to separate people from their money.

What I find really disturbing is the marketing BS on the back of the box. There are two pictures of ballistic gelatin. One showing the penetration of regular steel and the other showing the penetration of black cloud. However, I believe the pic of the black cloud is a close up compared to the one of the steel, so the wound channels look much bigger. A bunch of BS as far as I am concerned.

I also think my Patternmaster choke is a bunch of BS. Before buying it, I used to use a modified choke in my SBE and I killed geese out to 60 yards pretty easily. Now, I cannot kill anything outside of 40 yards without Hevi-Shot. I'm going to go back to using the old choke tube and regular steel shot when I am not using Hevi-Shot.

[TreeDoc]

Have you put that PatternMaster on paper?

I have a set of them and found a huge difference between different manufactured loads and of course, sizes. They also work better with bigger shot.

I just got an SBE yesterday. Gonna take it out and pattern it this weekend if it's not raining.

[fabsroman]

Great to see you around TD, and glad to see you getting a SBE. Hopefully, you will hold on to it longer than that Nova you had.

I tried the Patternmaster on paper with Hevi-Shot and steel when I first got it because I missed some ducks earlier that day that I would normally have crushed. The thing was horrible with steel, but it patterned Hevi-Shot great. Thing is, I could pattern steel just fine with my SBE's factory modified choke. I'll have to pattern it during the off season with this Black Cloud stuff and some other steel loads to see exactly what it does.

Thing is, I should have listened to the old "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" saying. I killed hundreds of waterfowl with that SBE factory modified choke. In fact, it had been in the gun so long that it was extremely hard to remove it when I went to replace it with the Patternmaster. I should have known my gun was trying to tell me something. LOL

[TreeDoc]

Still got the Nova, it'll just ride in the truck vault during the season in case I need a 3.5" back-up while I'm Spec hunting.

Like I mentioned, I tried a lot of different loads with my PM choke and was amazed at the difference between each load. I still use my Factory Chokes or my Briley extended tubes with great success so the PM's just sit. I think they work pretty good for the big geese but for ducks inside 30 yards which is mostly our case, I'll stick with the standard stuff.

[fabsroman]

TD,

When I pay $50+ for a choke tube, I really don't want to have to worry about what ammo I am shooting out of my gun because it might or might not pattern well. I don't want to have to worry about borrowing shells from a hunting buddy because they might not pattern well out of the Pattern "Master". I swear, I think a lot of the equipment out there that is supposed to be better, is nothing close to better.

Which Briley tubes are you using for hunting? I use their tubes in my target guns with the exception of the guns that use the Optima choke tubes. All of those guns use the standard Beretta Optima chokes.

[tjwatty]

fabs,
I had a Briley duck tube for my old M 1 Benelli and when we shot cripples on the water I made believers out of the rest of the blind. My son bought a Pattern Master for his Gold and it was an improvement but the Briley still had a more uniform pattern. IMHO When I got the new SBE,with the fancy criogenic suck in the hunters to sell more stuff barrel, I went with the factory tube, figureing that newer was better, right. Well, I will have a Briley tube for next season, nuff said..
I figure that if Browning finally got smart and went to Briley tubes and when we were at the Grands almost everyone was using Briley that's good enough for an old crippled retired railroader.

[fabsroman]

Honestly, I have no idea why I bought any after market choke tube other than a Briley. The pattern master was the first and last after market choke I'll buy other than a Briley.

Now, I just need to see what they have to offer for steel and Hevi in waterfowl configurations.

[TreeDoc]

If you shoot the right loads determined by patterning through the PatternMaster, you should get some good performance. As you probably know, the PM is a wad-stopping choke which shortens the shot string creating a more dense pattern. It is designed to work with bigger pellets though, like BB's and BBB's.

One thing I disliked about mine was the porting. Shooting out of a Pit Blind, it was deafening for those in the hole and the dog if he was close by. I have since removed my dog from the equation by sending him down the check about 30-35 yards where he can see the entire playing field. Much safer for him.

[Minihuntur]

Hey guys, just for the record, cheap STEEL DON'T WORK GOOD! today i shot a medium sized duck, i think a can-back at about 20-30yards, my brother (who i was hunting with) said it was a solid hit, and another! at least 3 hits on that bugger, darn! :mad: it couldn't fly but just fell to the pond we were hunting on and joined our flock of stupid live ducks that wouldn't leave! this was 12 GA 3in #2 fasteel by Kent! 1300fps! 1 3/8 oz! But it cleaned away all muscles and skin on a nice mallard's neck @ medium range. the gun was my new maverick 28in. bbl w mod choke.:confused: i'm confused, this effect on a mallard with none on a can-back!? this is totally strange! maybe ill have better results tomorrow when i go. ill probably post then. ps. any duck tips would be accepted.
Minihuntur

[fabsroman]

If you are hunting in the US, it is illegal to hunt over live waterfowl, even the stupid domesticated ducks that will not leave the pond. That is the first tip.

Canvasbacks can be tough birds, so I'm not surprised that it didn't come down at medium range with steel. I also think a Canvasback would be one of the larger ducks, but I cold be wrong about that. Personally, I have never had a problem with steel at 20 yards, and very rarely at 30 yards, if the gun patterns the shell well, I pick the correct pellet size, and I do my part. For canvasbacks, I would probably use #2's in steel at medium range, and #4's if they are coming in real close over decoys.

If you hit the bird 3 or 4 times, I am really surprised that it didn't drop dead. Did you recover the bird? If so, breast it out and see if you can find any pellets in it. If you find a lot of pellets in it, that will show you what kind of penetration you are getting with the load you are using. There is a huge difference between shooting the neck off of a mallard, and a body shot on a canvasback. Heck, there is a huge difference between shooting the neck on a mallard and shooting the body on a mallard.

[Catfish]

My goose gun is an old model 12, 3 in. with a Polly Choke. I tried the BC in it, shot 2 shells and got 2 geese. They were real close, but they are the first 2 geese I ever killed with steel. I jump shoot geese and do real well with the SUPPER HIGH DOLLAR stuff, but with steel all I`ve ever been able to get is feathers. Jury is still out on BC for me, but I do know that I would reather be shooting lead. :(