How do you CCW folks practice?

[Adam Helmer]

We all know practice makes perfect, or some such, but do CCW folks practice and how? I ask this question because a local friend just got his CCW license and called me on the phone to ask, "Can I buy ammo in less quantity than a case?" I told him a case was usually a thousand rounds and yes, he could buy a box of fifty rounds. "No", he said, "I only want six rounds." (He has a .38 Special revolver.) I told him to buy several boxes of 50 rounds each and to shoot them in his CCW piece!

I have seen this mentality before when it comes to new gun owners. I was the only shooter on my rural NH range some years ago on a Saturday morning when a new club member showed up with a S&W Model 29 6-inch .44 Magnum and his first box of factory .44M rounds. He had no target or ear muffs. I put up a target for him at 50 feet and offered him the use of my ear muffs. He declined my muffs as he told me, "I am only going to fire six rounds." Well, he did fire his 6 rounds, sans ear protection, and left the range. A week later he told me his ears "rang" for 3 days and he stayed home from work.

I shoot just about everyday on my backyard 25-yard range at bullseye targets and B-27 silhouettes. Once a month I try to shoot the local IDPA (Combat) match. I advise my handgun students to shoot at least weekly to "stay grooved" with their CCW handguns.

How do other CCW folks stay grooved?

Adam

[Mr. 16 gauge]

Unfortunately, we are not allowed to draw and fire on any of the ranges here; rapid fire on the ranges is forbidden as well (maximum of 1 rd/sec, and they keep a close eye on you, too!:rolleyes: )
Personally, I practice at the range by bringing the gun up from a low position, quickly alligning the sights, and firing one or two rounds. At home, I practice getting my gun from my holster (empty, of course), and the sights on target as quickly as possible.
During early spring (March or late February), I try and take a couple of weekends and go to the local state game area and put it all together. I have found a spot that is a parking area and has a burm that goes up for several feet around 75-80% of the parking lot, so the danger of a stray round getting away is minimal. Most hunting seasons are over at this time of year, so I am not going to bother someones hunting with my shooting, and I can practice with an over coat on (pushing it aside to get to my weapon). I usually set up 2-3 human sized targets on platforms that I made from 2x2 stock and some old stair planking....the targets are made of scrap cardboard from work.
I set up the targets, try and get two rounds in the closets first, farthest last, practicing at various distances.
I also use this opportunity to practice with buckshot from my short barreled scatterguns as well.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Due to work constraints, I don't get to shoot as often as I like to, but I try to shoot with my handguns at least once a month.....this time of year is difficult, as the deer hunters are starting to sight in thier rifles, and the range gets packed pretty quick.

I have seen the 'fire a cylinder or magazine full of ammo' and then consider themselves 'good to go".:rolleyes:

[Dan Morris]

Guess I'm lucky, at my range, majority of members are LEO...
several agencies also use it. Also, my neighborhood is kinda a 'blue getto'....lotta officers live here. Most of the time I use B27's
and shoot with em. Only restriction is 50 cal. Rifles, FA and handguns are welcome....just follow range safety rules.
I try to burn 50/100 pistol rounds a month. When son was growing up, he could out shoot most of em....a sore spot!LOL
Dan
:cool:

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

You raise a good point about practicing with the shotgun as well as the handgun. You seem to have set up a fine scenario with "double tap" and "multiple assailants."

One more thing, if you fire a gun inside your home, bedroom or living room, be prepared to be totally deafened by your shot thereafter for some time. We had a drill to roll the strong side ear down onto the strong shoulder to cut the muzzle blast and retain 50% of your hearing after your shot. It works with a Weaver stance on a handgun and you can still pick up the sights-it just takes practice. Hope this helps.

Adam

[kt]

this is a good topic because the only thing worse than not having a gun when that time comes, is not knowing how to use it.
Mr. 16 ga. if possible it sounds like you need to join a new shooting club. i have given up on places that watch you like a hawk, i had a guy at a club once tell me that there were holes in the backstop 2 x 4's that werent there before i shot and he wanted to know if i felt like paying for new ones. i told him to go piss in the wind. no way my .22 mag made the holes he referred to.
any how i wouldnt even trust my life to a gun that hasnt seen at minimum 2,3,400 rounds (btw the new glock is 700 rounds without a problem ;) but that is another story. but for instance, kel tec recommends at least 200 rounds threw those pocket pistols they sell because they expect malfunctions in that period, most kahr discussion boards i read say at least 500 before the gun is "broke in"
i say you should definetely draw from the holster, because i told a guy who thought he was hot stuff to try it once and it took him 3 attempts to break his thumbreak on his holster when trying to do it fast. imagine that in a bad situation! my main thing with this method of practice, and you dont need to do it all the time, but at some point in your practice imagine that the black sillouette target is a snarling bad guy coming fast to do you harm, you dont have all day to draw, breath and take aim. keep that in mind just sometimes when shooting your hand gun.
kt

[Mr. 16 gauge]

One more thing, if you fire a gun inside your home, bedroom or living room, be prepared to be totally deafened by your shot thereafter for some time.

Don't I know it! An acquaintance of mine had a membership to a gun club that had it's rifle range benches covered with a corugated tin roof.....I had good hearing protection on (muffs) and I almost couldn't stand to shoot my M1A1 , it was so loud! My friend had to leave....he was wearing those cheap foam ear inserts.:rolleyes:
Another interesting phenomena is muzzle flash.....even at dusk, while there is still some light, the flash from a .357 magnum can be blinding!:eek:

Mr. 16 ga. if possible it sounds like you need to join a new shooting club

Unfortunately, kt, it's not a 'club', but rather a public indoor range where anyone can plunk down their cash and shoot.....some just want to see how much ammo they can blow through in an hour, and do thier damndest to do so. Also, there are a LOT of people that have no idea of the basic concepts of gun safety....there are holes in the sides of the shooting lanes, and more than once I have seen people carelessly handle firearms. Unfortunately for me, the only other option is not to shoot....or to shoot much, much less.:( Living in suburbia, and with my occupation giving me too many variable hours, I can't join a league (although I would like to). There are a few places here that have IDPA, or whatever it's called, but I don't have the fancy guns or rigs that the game calls for.

i say you should definetely draw from the holster, because i told a guy who thought he was hot stuff to try it once and it took him 3 attempts to break his thumbreak on his holster when trying to do it fast.
I have a few holsters with thumb breaks; the neat thing about them is that they seem to become more user friendly the more you practice with 'em (by that, I mean the leather gets 'broke in' and it doesn't seem to take as much effort to release the thumb break). To many variables to mess with....I want it to be 'natural', if you know what I mean.

[skeet]

I used to hire some of the homeless people from the city....but after I finally hit one of 'em they quit hiring out to me! Now I have to find a new way to get realistic practice:D

[Adam Helmer]

Mr. 16 gauge,

Our IDPA shoots at my club do not involve any fancy guns or rigs, the gear I see and use is "issue gear."

I use my Glock M19 (9mm), a M1911 Colt and a Smith 645 (45 ACP) and my holsters are former duty holsters and the double mag pouches were former duty stuff.

Adam

[popplecop]

In Wisconsin we don't have CC, thanks to our most liberal govenor. I am retired from 30 years in Law Enforcement and under Federal law if my department would give us a course could then carry anywhere in the USA. But seeing I retired from the State they won't offer a course to us. So I just shoot the heck out of my handguns, case them up unloaded and transport them so they aren't concealed in the auto.

[jmarriott]

I practice at the local farm's little trash dump. a nice little hill with lots of places to place the cans and roll a tire downhill. A couple of shot up rusted cars ect.

CCW's are just there to provide me time to access my ar-15 or shotgun.

[Calif Hunter]

We have a little "practical" pistol club that shoots once a month at a range up in the hills. We are the "No Name Pistol Club." The matches are usually started from the "hands off holstered" pistol position, although we sometimes start from a "surrender" position or from a pistol on the table start. Last month, we had a charging silhouette - a target stand on a furniture dolly pulled along with a cord pulled by another member behind the shooting line. THe scenario was that the charger had body armor on and you had to score a head shot before the target crossed a certain line.

Sometimes, we shoot the metal plates (6 on the rack), pepper poppers, bowling pins or clay pigeons. We usually have an optional 3-gun stage, involving rifle, pistol and shotgun. Almost all shooting is against the clock, to simulate stress.

The October match is a recreation of the OK Corral shootout - you get extra points for shooting a single action revolver!

[Andy L]

Im a backyard shooter too.

Actually, I just bought a house and 15 acres about 3 miles out of town. Now I can have a lot nicer "range". Im sure my neighbors here will not be sad to see me go. Between the dogs, shooting, kids riding 4 wheelers and me in the yard messin with coyotes with a mouthcall at midnight..... :D

[8X56MS]

I practice up at the lake City range in the Osceola National Forest. This is an unsupervised range, and you can shoot pretty much any way you want to.
I also have access to a couple of farms near town, where I can shoot and practice my draw and aim.

[BlkHawk73]

Each range session I bring my CCW and run at least two mags/cylinders through each. I'll do it at 21 feet and shoot at hanging 8" plates.
i do agree that too few practice but I really think even fewer get only minimum required training. If you're going to carry and are tht serious about it I think you really need quality, top-notch training (Thunder rance, Gunsite, etc) Those small local NRA evel stuf is ok, but get it from those that are the tops in that field of training.

[Contenderizer]

Adam: That six shot mentality that you mention is even more scary when the shooter has a semi-auto. I'm sure we would all be shocked at how many beginning shooters have never fired enough ammo through their newly purchased semi to know how well the gun digests the ammo they are using. And - clear a round? What's that?

Calif Hunter: I like your idea of the charging silhouette. It beats using homeless people ... who tend to stumble when intoxicated.

Question to all: Can anyone point me in the right direction for instruction on the method to draw a 1911 when the gun is NOT carried cocked and locked? I'm a revolver guy, but have a Llama that I may carry from time-to-time. Ah, forget it ... I never could figure-out those safety thingies.

Later ......

[Adam Helmer]

Conrtenderizer,

If you "cannot figure out those safety thingies", then you SHOULD NOT carry that gun! If you cannot figure out the safety on a calm day at the range, rest assured you will NOT figure it out under Stress.

As for your question about carrying a 1911, let me advise you that the Colt 1911 was meant to be carried Locked and Cocked. If you do not carry the 1911 that way, let me assure you that RACKING the slide to charge the piece will direct the bad guy's fire onto you PRONTO! Nothing sounds like a 1911 slide being racked so much as a 1911 slide being racked and it is a DEAD give away if you are in a CCW situation! I suggest you stick with the revolver, for your own good.

Adam

[Contenderizer]

Adam,

Apparently my sense of humor missed the target.

While I actually do understand the function of the three safeties on my Llama (half-cock, thumb safety and grip safety), perhaps I don't understand the term Locked and Cocked. I was of the impression that it meant:

1)a round in the chamber
2)hammer "fully cocked"
3)safety(s) on.

If this is correct, then you have hit the nail on the head - I should stick with a revolver. I simply am not comfortable carrying any firearm with the hammer at full cock (as many people do).

When I asked my rather covert question about the method of draw for a 1911 "NOT" Locked and Cocked - I assumed NOT Locked and Cocked meant:

1)a round in the chamber
2) hammer at "half-cock"
3) safety(s) on.

As alway, thanks for your expert feed-back.

[gumpokc]

There are several ways to bring a 1911 style pistol into play from a unloaded chamber, holstered weapon.

Most are simply variations of each other, modified for personal pref, but here is mine.
( this is termed as if in a real danger situation)

weapon in holster, magazine loaded, but no round in chamber.

release holster restraining strap

grab and draw pistol with strong hand, keep the pistol close to the side of your body, while reaching for the slide with your offhand.

grab the slide with your offhand firmly, then _while holding your offhand in position_ shove your stronghand forward, slide will go to rear, when it stops release it, pistol is now ready to go.

(you now have your offhand partially across your body, if your attacker is closing on you, this puts your offhand into place for a backhand strike, or elbow strike, while providing some minor protection (every little bit helps) to your shooting hand/torso.)

You can now move your offhand to support the stronghand.

I was told this method helps in that if you work the slide with the offhand, the way your muscles work actually twists you away from your target, whereas usign the offhand to hold the slide, and stronghand to push, helps you align to your target faster since it is a more "natural" movement and allows your hand to come straightup to your line of sight.

I am sure others have their own ways that work quite well.

In a nondanger situation, you of course follow all normal saftey procedures.

remove pistol from holster, lock slide to rear, check condition of chamber, check magazine, clear the area, insert magazine, clear area, release slide, place weapon on safe.

[Adam Helmer]

Contenderizer,

You are correct in your definition of "Locked & Cocked." Many folks are not confortable with that mode of carry. I usually carry my 1911 chamber empty and cycle the slide to charge the piece if I think there will be a need to employ the piece in the immediate future. I put the thumb safety on and go about my business. There are thumb break holsters that have the retaining strap go over the rear of the slide and it is between the firing pin and cocked hammer. Those holsters give peace of mind to some folks.

The half-cock notch on the Colt 1911 hammer is not a safety. In that mode you cannot engage the thumb safety and if you drop the pistol on the hammer, you could break off the sear tip and the gun could fire.

I have know folks to carry the 1911 chamber loaded and hammer down on the live round. It works because the 1911 has an inertial firing pin and is shorter than the distance from hammer face to primer. To employ the gun, they cock the hammer and shoot. Again, do not drop the gun on the hammer because the gun could fire, if you use this mode of carry. Also, watch the muzzle when you let the hammer all the way down on a chambered round!

Adam

[Contenderizer]

Adam:

You stated:

The half-cock notch on the Colt 1911 hammer is not a safety. In that mode you cannot engage the thumb safety

Odd, thought me, at half-cock I am sure my safety moves upwards, and, when the hammer is fully cocked, the safety then drops to the fire position. WRONG! After more careful examination I discovered that while the safety does move up, it does not go into the full safe position. Thanks for that info; I told you I was a revolver guy! I would like to point out that at half-cock - and with the grip safety depressed - the hammer will not fall when the trigger is pulled. This gives me some level of comfort.

I have know folks to carry the 1911 chamber loaded and hammer down on the live round. It works because the 1911 has an inertial firing pin and is shorter than the distance from hammer face to primer. To employ the gun, they cock the hammer and shoot.

This seems really strange to me. If the firearm is safe to carry hammer down, why is the half-cock feature there? With the hammer down or at half-cock the thumb safety is useless. If there is a round in the chamber, me thinks I would rather carry at half-cock ... given the options.

Which brings me back to my original question. Is there a preferred method of draw with the firearm at half-cock (i.e. cock with the strong hand thumb; cock with the weak hand while raising the gun, similar to Cowboy Action, etc.)?

[Adam Helmer]

Contenderizer,

Good to hear from you. I am glad you are getting to know the Colt 1911 a bit better. Since you seem set on carrying your 1911 at half-cock with a round in the chamber, here are my thoughts.

First, when you charge your pistol and decide to let the hammer down to half-cock WATCH THE MUZZLE! I put my weak hand thumb over the firing pin when the strong hand squeezes the grip safety and pulls the trigger! The hammer will hit my thumb and NOT the firing pin. Practice this maneuver with an unloaded pistol a dozen times before you go LIVE. It is impossible to use the strong hand to grip the grip safety and also hang onto the hammer; try it and see for yourself. Some folks try to hang onto the descending hammer with the weak thumb while pulling the trigger with the strong hand to lower the hammer. If it works, ok. When it does not work and the hammer falls without restraint, folks replace furriture, door frames, etc. I suggest the weak thumb shielding the hammer for better security. Once the hammer hits the thumb, LET off the trigger and ease the hammer down to half cock.

When you draw from the holster with a chamber loaded half cocked 1911, keep the muzzle down range, single action cock the hammer with the strong thumb and go for it. Hope this helps.

Adam

[Jack]

To my knowledge, the purpose of the half cock notch on a 1911 is to prevent the hammer from falling all the way, should the hammer be bounced out of the full cock notch when someone hits the slide release and lets the slide slam forward.
You sometimes see this happen on 1911's that have had trigger jobs and have light triggers. The term 'following' is often used to describe the hammer 'following' the slide forward.
An easy way to prevent following is to hold the hammer back with the weak hand when you thumb the slide release and let the slide go forward. Another easy way to prevent following is to have someone competent do your trigger jobs. ;)
Just to throw some gasoline on the fire here, I've heard many people worry about carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. In that condition, the hammer's cocked, and you depend on the thumb safety and grip safety for preventing accidents.
Now, a number of striker fired autos are typically carried with a loaded round in the chamber and the safety on. A striker fired auto is cocked all the time, and when you carry that type auto with a round in the chamber (as is almost universally done) you depend on the safety to prevent accidents- ONE safety.
The 1911 has 2 safeties in the cocked and locked scenario.
Now, call me a skeptic, but, which is safer? Might it be that since you can SEE a 1911 hammer, you worry, but since you can't SEE a striker, you don't? Seems to me that 2 safeties are better than 1.
OK, guys, I'm ready- fire away:D

[Adam Helmer]

Jack,

Thanks for your sage observations, as usual.

I teach the weak thumb blocking the hammer fall in my revolver classes as well as auto pistol classes. Letting the hammer down to half cock on a 1911 is similiar in many ways to letting the cocked hammer down on a single or double action revolver. The key is to get off the trigger as soon as the hammer releases and ease the hammer forward.

I get a laugh at the cowboy movies when some gunslinger cocks his revolver and points the gun at a person. When the gunman decides he will not shoot, they ALWAYS KEEP the muzzle on the target's midsection when they release the hammer and let it go forward!!! Common sense dictates that one points the muzzle AWAY from a person before letting the hammer down.

One final story: Back 20 years ago in a rural NH town a woman heard a suspicious noise after dark in her backyard. She was alone, so she grabbed her DA revolver and flashlight and headed for the backyard and she cocked the revolver as she exited the house. She found no intruder so she went back to her kitchen. She had had some firearms training from her husband and had fired her S&W at the range, but had NEVER let the hammer down on a loaded pistol. She could not open the cylinder with the Smith cocked. After some deliberation, she lowered the hammer by shooting her trash can! The nearby neighbors called the cops and the SWAT team responded because the woman had never let the hammer down on a loaded gun.

That lady was the first person to sign up the next month when my gun club offered a firearms instruction course.

Adam

[RagingBullPa]

here in ne pa many of are ranges are undergoing rebuilding and renovations, too much lead sad shape of the backstops , benches and surrounding areas, hopefully they will be ready soon , they sure dragged their feet on this issue of course with no guns Ed Rendell as our govenor its a wonder we still have a hunting seasonleft , let alone areas to safely shoot our firearms, :( , seems as though the beloved Game Commission has forgot about NE Pa, when it comes to even hunter training courses, i was just on the web site, i really would like to know where all our dollars are spent to enhance our hunting, probably in some politicians pocket and it sucks, no wonder hunters have declined here in Pa , with the crap they have to put up with , also the same with fishing license fees keep going up quality management just goes down the pooper