need a good gun safe, any suggestions

[Squid4]

I need to get a gun safe. I need to put it in my basement. My house is old so my basement is not finished, it has concrete walls and floor thats it. So i need a safe that can withstand the temperature change of the seasons and one that will protect the guns inside so the change of seasons won't affect the guns...any suggestions?

thank you ahead of time for you thoughts.

[fabsroman]

As much as I hate to say it, I would go with a Browning. That is what I am going to buy once I get around to it. I was going to buy one this year, but we will be moving from our townhouse into a single family home in a year or two and I don't want to have to take it with us.

My dad has an American Security safe and it seems to be doing the job pretty well. It is located in a musty/humid area of the house and there really hasn't been too much of an issue with the guns in it. Then again, do have three boxes of dessicant in it and I recharge them somewhat often. I don't think you will be able to find a safe that is completey air tight because most have a plastic gasket around the door that is made to expand when it gets hot. This is what makes them fire proof.

If you are keeping the safe in the basement, try to make sure that you keep it away from and gas lines that feed the furnace, water heater, or anything else in the basement. Might not be an issue in your basement, but I know it is one in my parents and most other homes. The additional fuel source will only subject the safe to increased temps in the case of a fire.

[Contenderizer]

As you may know, there is a big difference between gun cabinets and safes. Cabinets are for storage only (very little security) while safes offer much more (though varying degrees of) security. Some are UL rated for fire, and some are not. Some are UL rated for security, and some are not. The more ratings, the more costly. A top of the line 15-18 gun safe, with ratings, will set you back a grand or more.

I purchased a safe that was not UL rated because it was offered at a price that was too good to refuse - and I was primarially interested in security. If I have a fire, however, I'll be crying the blues. Basements rarely burn, so such an animal may work for you ... if, like fabsroman suggested, you keep it away from gas lines, etc.. Should the first floor burn, heat rises and your MAY be OK if the fire dept is nearby.

If your furnace is located in the basement I wouldn't be too concerned about the cold, winter months. It would more likely be the damp summer months that would take their toll on both guns and locking mechanism. I strongly suggest an optional dehumidifier, which are only about $30.00 (electricity required).

Basement installations also run the risk of flooding. Getting your safe up off the floor in the event of a sewer back-up, etc, should be considered. You could pour a small concrete slab and get the safe up 4-6" which may be a lifesaver some day. If you have a major flood, however, you are in big trouble.

Decide on your need for fire/security rating (or not) and look for a sale. Most gun safes are of adaquate quality to fend-off the amateur thief. You may not even need to bolt it to the floor as most thiefs won't take the time, or expend the effort, to haul it up the stairs. I would avoid a safe with an electronic lock because of dampness.

[fabsroman]

This is the one I want when we get a single family home:


http://www.browning.com/products/catalog/safes/detail.asp?cat_id=160&type_id=42744&value=001F#center

However, I'll get it with either the mallard or geese scenes instead of what is in the pic. The cost is going to be a little over $2,000 with shipping and the options that I want on it.

[Jack]

Something to think about: if you have a catastrophic house fire, and the gunsafe is in the basement, the fire may burn up, but the water used to put the fire out goes down.
You will end up with a gunsafe that, if it's fireproof, may well save the guns from fire. But, if it isn't waterproof, you may save the guns only to have them ruined by immersion.
Another thought: even if you put the safe on the first floor, if you have a really bad fire, the safe will end up in the basement.

[fabsroman]

Most of the better safes have a rubber gasket that isn't air tight initially. However, it is made to expand and become air tight once it is heated by a fire. That is why the contents don't get burnt or damaged when subjected to 1600 degree for 90 minutes. The safes are also insulated to help with the heat.

Now, if that gasket expands during a fire and creates an air tight seal on the safe, I would assume that the seal would also be water tight. So, that should take care of the water issue. However, as mentioned above, putting the safe on a concrete block specifically made for it would be another way to accomplish this. Maybe 4" off the ground would be a good idea.

Me, I have all kinds of idea for my gun/bike room when we move into a single family home. Problem is getting the home and then being able to afford the room.

[Duffy]

Squid, you could always just store your guns at my house :)

Seriously, I have this Stack-On:

http://www.stack-on.com/securityplus/gun_safes/gsd-419.html

I have the adjustable shelves out for more gun room, and store my ammo in another lockable cabinet elsewhere. As my collection expands, however, I will need to upgrade.

[fabsroman]

That Stack-On would be too small for me. That is why I am going to go with something that can hold around 40 guns. If I fill up a 40+ gun safe, then I know I have some issues, ..................... because that is about the largest safe they make. LOL

[spike1]

If you get discouraged make sure you check Home Depot and Lowe’s. Much to my surprise they have some OK gun safes. Not the best but much better than the cheesy sheet metal ones. A good theft deterrent but most likely not much protection in a fire.

[Rapier]

Sorry guys but you are going through a lot of unnecessary hunting and figuring. All that is needed is a cheap safe without fire protection and the purchase of good insurance.

Your home owners policy has a limit on sporting goods for theft, the entire contents limit applies to all other forms of loss covered by the policy, including fire. Buy the safe for theft protection and nothing else.

I have seen way to many house fires and the aftermath during the 40+ years I have been an insurance broker and the 19 years spent as a fire commissioner. If you have a basement it will not have a little junk in it and a little water. It will be full to the top with debris and filled to the top with water, just like a junk filled pool. The safe being the heavy object will be on the bottom. On the floor or in the basement makes little to no differance, the safe will end up in the basement regardless. The basement may become a fire pit before the fire is put out. It will not be the next day when the safe is removed, it might be the next month after, the fire dept investigation, state fire marshal investigation, removal of the upper debris, insurance investigation, etc., etc. What you will have when the safe is opened is an burnt, rusty, iron box filled with rusted junk.

With a slab foundation, you have a chance, in a city with a quick response. In the country well, the locals call the volunteer departments the "slab and chimney rescue squad." It is rare that a volunteer department saves a house from being a total constructive loss.
Ed

[fabsroman]

Rapier,

I live in the city, and would be more concerned with theft than with fire. Yeah, house fires happen, but I know of more people that have been burglared than people that have had their house burn down. In fact, I only know of one house that has burned down, which was in the "country" in PA. It was my aunt and uncle's vacation civil war home located on 100+ acres where we loved to spend our weekends. The fire did some damage to the house, but the fire department was able to put it out and we actually got to see the extent of the damage. While it was sad and bad, it wasn't completely horrible and a safe in the basement would have probably survived.

Now, of people getting robbed I know plenty of people. I am more worried about my guns being stolen.

I am also thinking about getting insurance on my guns and bikes, but then I have to deal with the valuation of them after the incident happens. Trust me, most insurance companies nowadays don't want to pay out on claims. We have a separate rider for my wife's engagement ring and wedding ring, and I cannot imagine the insurance company handing over a check for $15,000+ if something happens to that diamond. Of course, I could always be wrong about this, and surprised at the same time. I'm hoping I never have to find out one way or the other.

Another issue with insurance is that over one's lifetime, it isn't necessarily cheap. The investment in the safe is $2,000, how much would insurance cost on a $30,000 gun collection. Plus, some of my guns have sentimental value to me. My BPS was given to me by my dad on my 8th birthday. My dad and I bought the Citori together when I turned 18 from money that I earned at a hot dog stand. Killed my first deer with my dad's 30-06 which will eventually be given to me. How does insurance replace all that? It just doesn't.

So, I'll be going with the safe, and then maybe, just maybe insurance. However, I have been thinking about building my own home and making a concrete lined safe room where I can keep my bikes and my guns. All of the walls, floors, and ceiling would be in reinforced concrete, there would be a vault door to get into the room, and there would be a Browning safe in the room for the guns. That should keep my gun collection and bike collection pretty safe and hopefully out of harms way from a fire.

[skeet]

Fabs Join the NSSA or the NSCA and you can get insurance on your guns for 1.25 per hundred..no deductible and it even covers while hunting etc. PM me for the particulars if interested. Get a Safe any way. If buying a Brownig don't mess with the cheaper ones...get a Gold Model. Much better and more expensive of course. If you want a good price PM me on that also. I know where they can be bought for wholesale.

[Rapier]

Skeet,
The NSCA program is an excellent program, I have been asked about the program and looked into the program for members of my sporting clays group.

Fabs,
Look at my second sentance. :)
Ed

[fabsroman]

Yeah, the kicker is "good" insurance. However, I have yet to see anybody think they are buying "bad" insurance. Usually, they find out it was "bad" insurance when they have to make a claim. Kind of late to find that out.

With the NSCA program, I believe you pay for 40% of the guns' value over 30 years. I'll have to think about it. I'm definitely going with the safe and safe room, and I'll debate the insurance after that.

[skeet]

Fabs, my friend, don't you carry insurance on your house, on your car, on your life?? Why not your guns? Of course you will pay a percentage of the value of the guns as you do with the house, car and your life. Hopefully the value of your guns will rise over the years(if we are even allowed to have them 30 yrs hence). The NSSA/NSCA insurance is a pretty good deal. I have it on some of mine and feel that it is a real bargain. A friend just had a rider on his homeowners done for a 20,000 buck Krieghoff and it cost him 500 bucks and he has a deductible. You insure your wife's rings and ignore your guns? As I said....Tsk Tsk Tsk There is much better insurance than homeowner riders. Cheaper and better! Even on Jewelry.:D

[Rocky Raab]

I'm in the security over fire camp, also. My safe isn't fireproof and for the difference in cost, I can afford insurance.

Be aware that if you buy a "Browning" safe or a "Remington" safe, they are not only identical, but they cam off the same assembly line. We have two safe companies here in Utah (Both are owned by the same family. One split off from the other.) You can literally watch them apply a Browning decal to one and a Remington decal to the next one.

It ain't the decal that keeps the bad guys out. And the ones with no decal are about a third cheaper. Buy a good "company name" safe like American or Liberty and sleep well.

Finally, be VERY sure you understand what they mean by "delivery." Some companies will deliver it - but they mean they arrive with it in their truck, and they expect you to get it OUT of the truck and install it. Ask! And if you have to hire a moving company to get it from your driveway to where you want it, hire them. If they get crushed underneath, or they drop it through your stairwell, they pay to fix things. If you do either one...

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

I carry insurance on the things I cannot afford to lose (i.e., my house, my life, and my wife's life). Yeah, it will hurt to lose some or all of my guns, but I can still replace them, and with brand new guns instead of used ones. We all like to think that our guns will appreciate over time, but my Benelli has been beat up so much that I seriously doubt it. Granted, they will appreciate over time because the cost of living will increase, but the same thing will happen to the insurance premium.

By the way, I carry insurance on my car for three reasons:

1) Because it is mandatory in Maryland,
2) just in case my wife or I are at fault in an accident and somebody is really hurt we will not lose our house. However, neither of us have been at fault for an accident ever,
3) for the underinsured/uninsured coverage just in case some irresponsible uninsured/underinsured non-asset having driver hits my wife or me and is at fault, and somebody in our cars is injured.

I do not carry collision on my 1989 Mustang, my 1998 Taurus, or my wife's 2002 Hyundai Sonata because it just isn't worth it. I carry collision on my 2003 F-350, but might drop it in a year or two once the truck is worth around $20,000.

We also carry a separate rider on my wife's engagement and wedding rings, but not on her 1.5 carat earrings because we can afford the loss of the earrings.

To me, insurance is something that should be used if you cannot afford to lose something. My guns are worth more to me in sentimental value than they are in dollar value. So, instead of spending the money on insurance, I would rather spend it on better safes and better rooms.

Rocky,

The only reason I want the Browning safe over the Remington safe is because of the Duo door that allows me to store 10 guns on the door. I'd put the 10 most used shotguns on that door, with the most used rifles in the front portion of the safe. The worst thing about my dad's safe is having to move 10 guns out of the way to get to the gun I want in the back.

By the way, the delivery of my dad's safe was incredible. The delivery terms were that they would deliver it to the front door, which was fine. The first time they came to deliver it, they didn't have a lift on the truck. The second time, the guy dropped the safe off the back of the truck and it had to be returned to the manufacturer. The third time was the charm. After that, my dad, brothers, and I moved the safe indoors. It is an American Security safe and I like it plenty. I think it cost us $1,600 around 7 or 8 years ago.

[Rocky Raab]

Fabs, if there's a special feature you must have, then that alters things, of course. But except for special features, safes are pretty generic. One brand is no better than another.

That's the kind of horror story I hear a LOT about safe delivery, and that's why I brought it up.

[PJgunner]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is once the safe is in place, bolt it to the floor. In my case, they sit on a concrete slab. Holes were drilling into the slab and threaded bolts epoxied into place. We used a special type of epoxy made for that purpose. IIRC, we got it at Home depot along witht he threaded rod. We gave the epoxy 48 hours to cure, the placed washers on the threaded rod which were then tightened up using more epoxy on the threads to more or less make it permanent.
If you don't do this, all a burglar need is a decent dolly and away goes the safe and the gun collection. :(
Paul B.

[Duffy]

Good point. Mine is bolted to the wall.

[fabsroman]

If we end up building our own house, along with the walls to my dream room being poured in cement, I am going to have rods coming up from the floor slab in the basement so that I can bolt down the safe. The only thing I worry about with that is if the safe will still be fire proof after drilling some holes in it.

PJ,

How many holes did you drill in your safe? Do you think a single rod is sufficient, or would you recommend 2 or more.

[skeet]

Fabs Most of the safes have holes already in them. If not, you are going to put the holes either in the bottom or lower back to lag it down and it won't really matter. The only thing you get in a fire safe is a 30-45-60 minute rating that they won't go over 350 degrees. Hopefully the FD will have the fire out before that time.

[fabsroman]

Skeet,

Just read on Browning's website that if I drill the holes in the floor, I don't have to reseal them. However, if I drill the holes in the back wall they recommend that the holes be sealed with fire resistant silicone. I guess that is in case the back wall is on fire.

First, I have to get the dream house built, then I'll start worrying about the safe and drilling holes in it.

[skeet]

Join NSSA or NSCA(both are really together now) and BUY INSURANCE. Drop the insurance on the jewelry:D :D

[fabsroman]

Again, I always weigh the cost/benefit of these things. My wife's rings are more likely to be stolen or damaged than my guns. I work from home, so I am home most of the time. When my wife and I go on vacation, we usually have somebody stay at our house to watch the dog. So, there is usually somebody at our place most of the time, which usually deters thieves. Now, my wife's rings are almost always on her finger. I can just imagine her slamming her ring in a car door or having some thief mug her for them. Of course, they have sentimental value to her too, so we wouldn't want to lose them either. However, they are more likely to be lost or stolen than one of my guns. Plus, even if I destroy one of my guns, it will only cost me $4,000 at max to replace it, and most of my guns are cheaper than that (i.e., around the $1,000 range). So, it just makes more sense to insure her rings than my guns. I have had some of these guns now for 15 years, and not having insurance on them has probably allowed me to buy additional guns with the money I have saved.

It is just a risk assessment that I am doing. If my wife and I were out of the house all day at work, then I might really be worried about a thief stealing them, but that just isn't the case. To protect my life and family should a thief happen to come by while I am home, I have the guns and life insurance should they happen to get past me. Hoping I don't ever have this issue come up.

Also, when we do finally buy a home, we are going to get ADT, or a comparable alarm company, for alarm service. So, between the safe room and the alarm service, we should be in good shape. The alarm system will protect my family, the sentimental value to me of my guns, bikes, and Mustang, and my client files. Might just be able to write off a portion of the monthly payments for the alarm system since I'll have a home office.

[muskrat30]

I am looking into a Zanotti safe for my 2nd safe. It comes in parts(sides,bottom,top) & you put it together. The deal is it is easier to move into position & you can move it in the future if you have to.